710217 - Lecture - Gorakhpur

Lectures by Date, 1971

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

(note: please see 710217 - Lecture SB 11.03.27 - Gorakhpur for the text that was prviously on this page.)

710217L2-GORAKHPUR - February 17, 1971 - 67:43 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . humbler than the grass and tolerant more than the tree. Tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā, amāninā mānadena (CC Adi 17.31). We have to give all respect to everyone. Even one has no respect, he should be also offered respect. In this attitude one can make advancement by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. That is the instruction of Lord Caitanya.

(aside) I was expecting you earlier because I speak in English for them.

Guest: Mahāraja ab hum pratidin 5 baje aa jayenge. Koi baat nahi. (Mahāraja, from now on everyday I will come at 5. It's all right?)

Prabhupāda: Haan, aap thoda translation karke Hindi mei samjha dijiyega. (Yes, you please translate and make them understand in Hindi a little bit.) So one who cannot understand English, they can hear that.

Guest: Ab hum aayega na. Bilkul time pe aa jayega. Aaj hum isi time mei aaye. Kal bhi aaye savere se, jab se aaye hain tab se. (I will certainly come on time from now. Today I also came at the same time. Yesterday I also came in the morning, ever since I have come here.)

Prabhupāda: Is jagah mei koi sasta ādami hai kya? (Is there someone affordable to hire here?)

Guest: Jee, uske baare mei kal hum aapko pura batayenge. Savere jab hum aayenge. (Yes, I will let you know everything about that tomorrow morning when I come.)

Prabhupāda: Everyone is requesting to have a temple here. Some police officers, they are very much appreciating. Toh hum logo ko kya kahin jagaha mil sakta hai? (So can we get some place here?)

Guest: Meri aise hai ki jo do baar dekh lega aakar ke, toh un logon ko, aaj ho sakta hai unko mai kehta hoon ki ek baar aap aake Bhagvan ki pooja dekhiye, aaj hi. Unke baad aap ye . . . (indistinct) . . . ho jayegi. (I think once or twice if someone comes here and sees for themselves, maybe I can do it today. I will tell them to come and see Bhagavān pūjā once, after that . . . (indistinct) . . . it will be done.) (pause)

So Śrīdhāra Swami is very nicely explaining the omnipotency of chanting the holy name. So he says, tasmād idam upapannam iti tatrāha etāvad iti. If one takes shelter of the transcendental holy name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he hasn't got to go through the dharma śāstras or abiding by the rules and regulation of different kinds of religious scripture. Etāvat. Etāvad iti. Simply by surrendering to the holy name.

So this is applicable in all ages, but especially in this age, because nobody can perform the ritualistic ceremonies of any religious principle. The people are so fallen that they cannot. So this hari-nāmānukīrtanam, it is not that it is manufactured for this age. No. This is potent in all other ages also, but especially it is potent because people in this age, they are unable to execute any religious principles very nicely.

Bhagavato guṇānāṁ karmāṇāṁ nāmnāṁ ca samyak kīrtanaṁ iti yat etāvatā puṁsām agha-nirṇayāya pāpa-kṣaya-mātrāya alam upayogo nāsti alam-śabdena atra varaṇe. So Śrīdhāra Swami especially stresses on the point alam, means "It is forbidden. There is no necessity. Simply . . ."

That is the version of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He said, ihā haite sarva-siddhi haibe tomāra (Caitanya-bhāgavata Madhya 23.78). He also stresses that "Simply by chanting, you will get all perfection." Yata amara-śṛṅgāḥ, alaṁ bhūṣaṇa-paryāpi śakti-varaṇa-vaśakam ity upayoga-bhavam eva ajāmilo mahā-pāpa-kṛd api nārāyaṇeti vikṛśya na tu samyak kīrtayitaḥ.

(aside) You can hear now.

Yamunā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Ajāmila, there was not pure saṅkīrtana. Just like we are advised when chanting the mantra, mahā-mantra, to avoid ten kinds of offenses. So Ajāmila had no such program. He never meant that he was chanting the holy name of Nārāyaṇa. This point is being stressed by Śrīdhāra Swami. He simply tried to call his son, whose name was Nārāyaṇa.

That was not practically kīrtana, but this very vibration, transcendent vibration, has got so potency that without following the rules and regulation of chanting the holy name, he became immediately released from all sinful reaction. That point is stressed here.

Abhavan aśucir api niyamāna asustha-cittaḥ. Not only he never meant for chanting the holy name; he was not only sinful, but he was practically in coma because he was dying. His all functions of the physical body was stopped, and he could not chant even properly. Still, he became released from all sinful reaction. At the time of death . . . why death? Even in our sleeping condition we are out of our own control completely.

So Ajāmila was diseased and was almost on the verge of death, and he was calling his son only. Practically he had no program, but still, he became released, and what to speak of persons who are regularly chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra under principles and without any offense?

Avṛtti-śraddhādi-viṣayas tu pāpa-vāsanā-kṣayārtham harer guṇānuvādaḥ khalu sattva-bhāvanaḥ. So some way or other, if one is engaged in glorifying the activities . . . (Hindi aside) Harer guṇānuvādaṁ khalu sattva-bhāvanaḥ. So even with offense if . . . because in the beginning everyone chants with offenses . . . but harer guṇānuvāda, the glorification of the Lord, is so powerful that simply by chanting constantly . . . therefore we stress that so many rounds must be done. So many rounds must be done. That will protect him from contamination of this material world. Sattva-bhāvanaḥ. Sattva-bhāvanaḥ means his pure consciousness will gradually develop. Pure consciousness means Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Yadu-priya āvṛtaṁ tarhi dāruṣa, dāruṣābdi-smaraṇam iti tatrāha prāya . . . tvayi noktam (reads commentary in Sanskrit).

Śrīdhāra Swami is explaining the next verse. Prāyeṇa veda tad idaṁ na mahājano 'yaṁ divya-vimohita-matir bata māyayālam trayyaṁ jaḍi-kṛta-matir madhu-puṣpitāyāṁ vaitānike mahati karmāṇi yujyamānāḥ. People, if they are advised, as it, as it is actually advised . . . the question is why there are so many ritualistic ceremonial scriptures. Why? So the conclusion is that people are very much attached to any gorgeous method.

If you perform here in this temple a great sacrifice with hundreds of brāhmins and chanting Veda mantra, people will be very much attracted immediately. They'll think: "Oh, something very gorgeous is going on." You see? Why they are so? Now, vimohita-matir bata māyayālam. Because they are captivated by māyā, they cannot understand what is the potency of the holy name. They cannot understand. Therefore sometimes something very gorgeous ceremony is advised, just to attract them.

Trayyaṁ jaḍi-kṛta-matir madhu-puṣpitāyām. Trayyam. Trayyam means Vedas. Veda is called trayi because there are three kinds of different processes: karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa and upāsana-kāṇḍa. So jaḍi-kṛta. Just like in India there is a section called Ārya-samājīs. They are very much attached to performance of these sacrifices. They say that, "We do not want anything. We shall simply chant the Vedic mantra." Of course, they cannot do it properly. That is also gone. Simply as a formality, they ignite some fire and, hither and thither, some mantra—finished. (laughter)

Especially in this age, these sacrifices are not possible. Our . . . there is a sannyāsī leader, many sannyāsī leaders, they attract people by this performance of yajña, although in this age yajña is not possible because there is no yajñic brāhmin. The mantra . . . perhaps you have seen in the Kumbha-melā some government officers were—they are also born in a brāhmin family—and they are performing yajña.

Actually, the brāhmins had so much power in those days that simply by mantra, they would ignite fire. That fire was not ignited by matches—by mantra. And the animal . . . just like in medical science, in physiology sometimes experiment is made by plying the knife on some animal, similarly, how the yajña was being performed, that was tested by animal sacrifice.

Animal sacrifice was not meant for killing one animal and eating. No. That the animal, an old animal, should be put into the yajña fire and he'll come out a young, with a young body, that was the test how Vedic mantras were being chanted powerfully. That was the . . . not that animal was to be killed there. No. Superficially it appears that animal is put and he is killed, but when the animal comes out of the yajña, that is the test of yajñic brāhmin chanting the Vedic hymns correctly. That was the system.

And because there is no such powerful yajñic brāhmin at the present moment, therefore all kinds of yajñas are forbidden at the present moment. Kalau tad hari-kīrtanāt. Kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇuṁ tretāyāṁ yajato makhaiḥ (SB 12.3.52). This is the injunction of the śāstra, that in the Satya-yuga, meditation on Viṣṇu . . . now they have manufactured meditation in so many ways, but actually meditation means dhyāyato viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-mūrti, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, meditation, focusing the mind on the form of four-handed Viṣṇu, that is yoga.

yaṁ brahmā-varuṇendra-rudra(-marutaḥ) stunvanti divyaiḥ stavair

vedaiḥ sāṅga-pada-kramopaniṣadair gāyanti yaṁ sāma-gāḥ

dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ

(SB 12.13.1)

Yogina dhyānāvasthita, yaṁ paśyanti. Yam. Whom? The Supreme Personality of Godhead.

So kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇum. Perfection of life was attained in the Satya-yuga . . . because in the Satya-yuga there is no disturbance. Every man is perfectly religious and peaceful, and therefore they could concentrate their mind focusing their mind on Viṣṇu. So this dhyāna, meditation, was possible in the Satya-yuga.

Kṛte yad dhyāyato . . . tretāyāṁ yajato makhaiḥ. Then, next stage, next yuga is performance of sacrifices. People, the brāhmins, were so powerful that they could give the desired result by performing sacrifices, and there were means of securing the ingredients. Just like tons of ghee is wanted. Where is ghee? It is all dalda. Where you can perform sacrifice? (laughter) Ghee is finished. You cannot secure even the ingredients. There is no qualified brāhmin. Therefore yajña is not possible in this age.

Kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇuṁ tretāyām . . . dvāpare paricaryāyām (SB 12.3.52). And gorgeous temple worship according to the principle was possible perfectly in the Dvāpara-yuga. Our this temple worship, Deity worship, we are following the principles of Deity worship because our ācāryas established temple, but main principle is chanting. Therefore, whatever we are doing—we are offering prasādam to the Lord, we are having maṅgalārati—the main principle is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. This temple worship, it can be avoided, but we cannot avoid chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.

As such, we have introduced in several centers that, "Begin with Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, keeping the picture of Guru-Gaurāṅga." If it is not possible to worship the Deity according to the rules and regulation, there is no need of establishing temple. But if there are devotees who can actually keep the temple worship method in right order, then . . . otherwise, simple, by chanting, everything is complete.

But when there is temple worship, there is automatic purification because we have to rise early in the morning, we have to take bath. This kind of purification help . . . is helped by temple worship. But when there is grossest type of people who cannot take to this, simply chanting will do. Hari nāmānukīrtanam. Kalau tad, kali . . . kalau. Kalau means this age, that cleanliness is very difficult to maintain. Therefore kalau tad dhari-kīrtanāt. This is recommended.

So trayyāṁ jaḍi-kṛta-matiḥ. By the injunction of the Vedas, people are captivated. "Oh, if I perform this yajña, then next life I'll be elevated to the heavenly planet, Svarga." Svargaloka mem. So madhu-puṣpitāyām. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Veda-vada-ratāḥ pārtha nānyad astīti vādinaḥ (BG 2.42). Those who are simply after the formulas of the Veda, they cannot understand. The same example: Even at the present moment, because here is temple, people are attracted. If you simply chant, very few people will come. Very few people will come. Therefore both things are recommended.

Trayyāṁ jaḍi-kṛta-matiḥ. Their mind is so materialistic that they cannot give proper respect or importance to the chanting of the holy name. Trayyāṁ jaḍi-krta-matir madhu-puṣpitāyāṁ vaitāni ke mahati karmāṇi yujyamānāḥ. They are . . . generally, they are attracted for karma-kāṇḍīya vicāra.

That is explained here. Puspitāyāṁ puṣpatanair artha-vādi-mano harāyāṁ trayyāṁ jaḍi-kṛta abhiniviṣṭa matir yasya ata eva mahaty eva karmāṇi agni-stomādau śraddhāya yujyamāno narake pravartate. If you do not arrange for this gorgeous system, people are not attracted. Therefore we have to do sometimes, to attract people, this gorgeousness. Otherwise, chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra without any offense is sufficient.

Therefore our Guru Mahārāja introduced both the processes. This arca, arca, this is pañcarātriki-vidhi. According to pañcarātrika system, Nārada Pañcarātra, this worship of the Deity is there. And bhāgavata-mārga, the path of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, is simply śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. Out of the nine processes recommended, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam (SB 7.5.23), so up to śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ smaraṇam, that is bhāgavata-mārga. That is the best. And pāda-sevanaṁ arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam, that is pañcarātriki-vidhi.

So both the viddhis, both the systems have been introduced. One will help the other. That is the way. Simply bhāgavata-mārga . . . just like in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, in the beginning, is simply śravaṇam—paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi; janmādy asya (SB 1.1.1)—smaraṇam, simply remembering, memorizing the Supreme Truth. But, of course, the pañcarātrika-vidhi is recommended in the Second Canto. That, another pañcarātrika-vidhi, is worshiping the gigantic form of the Lord. These things are there. But both, combined together, it is very much helpful, bhāgavata-mārga. Bhāgavata-mārga will help the pañcarātrika-mārga, or process, and the pañcarātrika process will help Bhāgavata process. Both together is helpful.

Therefore my Guru Mahārāja introduced . . . you have seen the, what is called? That signia? One side, pañcarātriki-vidhi, one side bhāgavata-viddhi. That is . . . I have seen that Gauḍīya Math emblem. Yes. And so actually bhāgavata-mārga is very strong. That is sufficient. But without pañcarātrika-vidhi this polluted body, polluted mind of the devotee, cannot be purified. Therefore both the process should be adopted in preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

I think it is now . . . so any questions?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? You said . . . when you were speaking of bhāgavata-vidhi, you said that of the nine devotional methods, it includes . . . I didn't understand which ones it includes, up to what point.

Prabhupāda: Śravaṇam kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇam (SB 7.5.23)—this is bhāgavata-mārga. And arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁ sākhyam ātmā-nivedanam—that is pañcarātrika, arcanam. So out of the nine—nine, eight, seven, six, five—whatever you do, that is sufficient because absolute. Any item, even one item, you can, if you perform perfectly, that is sufficient. But there are nine alternative items.

Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he simply chanted, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. He did not establish any Deity, but he got perfection. There were many others. Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja. At the last stage of his life he simply concentrated in hearing Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Śravaṇam. So if śravaṇa is perfect, that is sufficient. Any one of the nine items, if it is done perfectly, that is sufficient.

Parīkṣit Mahārāja, he did not go to the temple. He sat on the bank of the Ganges, and he was very serious because he knew that "I am going to die within seven days. Let me finish as soon as possible simply hearing of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam." He was intelligent, otherwise . . . not that simply he was hearing. He was questioning, as you have seen in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So he was very scholar. It means as the spiritual master, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, was a great scholar in Sanskrit, the king was also a great scholar. Therefore quickly he was reciting, and he was understanding. And as soon as there was some difficulty, he was immediately questioning.

So both the spiritual master and the disciple, they became perfect simply by śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. This is bhāgavata-mārga. Simply by hearing and chanting. The spiritual master chanted, recited Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and that is being imitated. Again this karma-kāṇḍīya . . . this karma-kāṇḍīya vicāra, fruitive activities, the smārta brāhmins, they have manufactured a way of bhāgavata-saptaha. That is a farce only, because it is imitation of the process adopted by Parīkṣit Mahārāja and Śukadeva Gosvāmī.

But they are . . . these people, at the present moment, they are neither Parīkṣit Mahārāja nor Śukadeva Gosvāmī. So how it is possible to finish Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam within seven days? That is not possible. It has become a profession, that gorgeousness. They will make a mañcha, they will perform some ceremonies and there is some charitable.

The result is that the professional reciter will gather some money and some goods and he will maintain his family. That's all. And these people will take that, "I have heard for seven days Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam." Of course, there is some effect, but this is not recommended in anywhere in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that one has to hear Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam within seven days. No.

So far we see in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, it is said, nityam bhāgavata-sevayā. People should hear daily, regularly Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Why seven days? Regularly. Naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā (SB 1.2.18). Nityam, daily, regularly, if one hears and chants Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, then naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu, then the dirty things within his heart becomes almost cleansed.

Now, just try to understand. By daily hearing . . . because we are so much contaminated that it is very difficult to get us freed from the contamination, so nityam, regularly, there should be regularly class, hearing of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu.

naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu

nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā

bhagavaty uttama-śloke

bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭikī

(SB 1.2.18)

By the process of cleansing our heart, our devotional temperament becomes fixed up on the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is called Uttama-śloka, who is glorified with first-class, I mean to say, Sanskrit stanzas. Uttama-śloka.

Just like we pray, we offer prayer to Kṛṣṇa, govindam adi-puruṣam, cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam (Bs. 5.29). These stanzas are not ordinary. It is very first-class composition, and written by . . . written or offered by the first living creature, Lord Brahmā. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's name is Uttama-śloka. He is prayed with first-class composition.

All the ślokas, all the prayers we will find, they are not ordinary Sanskrit composition, as we have seen Bhīṣma's prayer to Kṛṣṇa, Kuntī's prayer to Kṛṣṇa in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. How philosophically they are elevated, how nicely they are composed. And because Kṛṣṇa is worshiped, God is worshiped by such kind of language and elevated poetical and rhetorical, all perfect, therefore His another name is Uttama-śloka.

So by studying, by hearing and chanting, reciting regularly of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, nityam . . . not that we make a function for seven days, and all the days we do all nonsense. No. Regular habit should be there. Nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā bhagavaty uttama-śloke bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭikī. The result will be that our devotional service towards the Supreme Personality of Godhead will be fixed up, firmly fixed up. And that firmly fixed up means you are immediately elevated to the platform of sattva-guṇa, goodness. Sattva-guṇa.

Tato rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ (SB 1.2.19), as soon as you are fixed up . . . the devotional service is so nice. As soon as you are fixed up, the other two qualities . . . to be fixed up in devotional service . . . therefore we offer the brahminical position. One who is . . . when we see that: "This man is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and his bad habits, contaminated stage, is much improved, naṣṭa prāyeṣu . . ." Prāyeṣu means almost he is purified. At that time he is fixed up in devotional service—therefore we offer the brahminical position, sacred thread.

Because a person who is fixed up in devotional service, he is a brāhmin. He is a brāhmin. He is no more any other, because he has cleansed almost the bad habits and the unclean state of mind. Naṣṭa prāyeṣu abhadreṣu. Just see. It is, whatever we are doing, it is all according to the śāstra. Not that he has completely become free, but naṣṭa prāyeṣu. Prāya means almost. Almost he has finished the contamination. Therefore he is fixed up. The first test is whether he is fixed up. As soon as he is fixed up, that means he is fixed up in the brahminical stage.

My Guru Mahārāja introduced the sacred ceremony because foolish people, they used to . . . Vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. They used to consider Vaiṣṇava as belonging to some jāta, some particular caste. No. Vaiṣṇava is not in the particular caste. As soon as he is fixed up . . . he may be coming from the pāpa-yoni, from the most abominable family, but as soon as he is fixed up, immediately he is fixed up in the position of a brāhmin because sattva-guṇa . . . Naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu. Naṣṭa . . . Tato rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ (SB 1.2.19). He has no more inclination to be attracted by the activities of tamo-guṇa and rajo-guṇa. They have no more attraction for drinking, no more attraction for meat-eating, therefore no more attraction for smoking, drinking tea.

This means that the rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ, kāma-lobha, greediness. We are addicted to all these bad habits due to greediness. There is no other cause. A man will not die if he does not drink. A man will not die if he does not eat meat. He will not die. It is due to our greediness, "I want." And lusty. The illicit sex means lusty. So rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ means lustiness and greediness.

So when one is fixed up in devotional service, then tato rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye, ceta etair anāviddha. At that time, when he's fixed up in devotional service, his mind is not disturbed with all this nonsense coming out of the quality of ignorance and passion. Tato rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye, ceta etair anāviddha. Anāviddham means it is not attacked by this greediness and lustiness. Sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati: "He is immediately in the sattva-guṇa, goodness. Therefore his mind is satisfied." These are the test. Mind is no more disturbance.

And as soon as his mind is in tranquillity, evaṁ prasanna-manaso . . . (SB 1.2.20), because as soon as one is elevated to the sattva-guṇa platform, he becomes happy in his mental situation. Evaṁ prasanna-manaso. Unless one is situated in tranquillity of his mental position, one cannot understand the science of Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. One must become satisfied. That satisfaction comes on the platform of sattva-guṇa, not in the platform of ignorance and passion.

People are . . . they come . . . mostly people, they are being conducted by passion and ignorance. Therefore they cannot understand. They say: "Such and such person is greater than Kṛṣṇa," because they are captivated by ignorance. They do not know, and therefore talk so many nonsense. Unless we are freed from the rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ . . . they advise, "You can do whatever you like. You can eat whatever you like. Now you are liberated, you can indulge in all kinds of nonsense, but still, you are God. You are Brahman." These things are going on. How they can understand Kṛṣṇa? It is not possible.

Revatīnandana: Śrīla Prabhupāda? If they were more intelligent in previous ages, then why didn't they take to the chanting process? Why did they do it, the more difficult method, if they were more intelligent?

Prabhupāda: They do not care. They say: "What is this chanting? Let me perform a big sacrifice." That is explained. Jaḍi-kṛta-matiḥ. They are so materialized, they do not understand the importance of chanting. For them, they should be called, "Come on. Here is a big yajña. Bring three hundred pounds of ghee." "Oh, it is something." You see? "It is something."

Gorgeousness. They want gorgeousness. And people come to show them gorgeousness to cheat. Because although it is not possible to perform properly yajña, but people are . . . want that, so there are many cheaters. They say: "Oh, this yajña, that yajña, that yajña," and people will be attracted. Jaḍi-kṛta-matiḥ, materialized. Their brain cannot accommodate that the Hare Kṛṣṇa, this Kṛṣṇa name, is Kṛṣṇa. It is very difficult for them to understand.

Guest (Indian man): Just you have told by chanting holy name one can attain the sattva-guṇa standard.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: But the many persons such as this, that the so-called vicāra, namely they introduce when the karma-kāṇḍa, and this is particularly difficult to get in this age. So how can we get these vicāra? By chanting holy name within two or three days we don't find that sort of blissful . . . (indistinct) . . . I don't know how, what is this, but I . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Chanting . . . chanting? What is your question?

Haṁsadūta: Right now we have so many preachers, so many other kinds of preachers in India. Then how can they get rid of them just by chanting?

Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. That is the difficulty. But you have to got little intelligent associate. Just like if you want to purchase something, once or twice you may be cheated. A third time, you are very intelligent. (chuckles) So even despite being cheated, you should try to find out who is the real preacher. That requires little intelligence.

Guest: (indistinct) . . . but these so-called spiritual preachers are looking at you, and immediately you go they will pounce over you. Where is the guarantee . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is such possibility. Yes.

Guest: I have discussed yesterday in the market. They were, "You are chanting with this party. What interest you have got?" I explained that "The mass have forgotten Lord Kṛṣṇa, and we are importing the importance of Kṛṣṇa from USA." (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Yes, that . . . yes. That is the fact. That is the fact.

Guest: (indistinct) . . . then I told that, "Guru Mahārāja is Indian, but he has got no place in India . . . (indistinct) . . . and it is the Western people who are teaching us how to serve Kṛṣṇa. If I learn something from them, what is wrong with it?"

Prabhupāda: Their brain is full with hodgepodge. (laughter) You see? Brain is full with hodgepodge. They cannot understand clearly. Just see, the other day the boy was speaking that Aurobindo is greater than Kṛṣṇa. You see? How much misled they are. That is the difficulty in India. The so-called preachers, yogīs, they have filled up the brain with so many hodgepodge things that it is difficult for them. These boys in . . . they had no such hodgepodge things. They accepted Kṛṣṇa as He is, and therefore their progress is very quick.

Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: And some people I have told that they are the friends of Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone, not only they. Anyone. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Anyone who will accept this principle, he will be elevated. That's all. But his brain is filled, "Then why Kṛṣṇa? Why not Aurobindo? He is greater than Kṛṣṇa." You see?

Guest: I don't think he is greater than Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No.

Guest: He has told only, "Ahaṁ brahmāsmi."

Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ brahmāsmi . . . not he says, but his disciple says.

Guest: These things are wrong then. What is wrong with guru?

Prabhupāda: And why you did not follow it, that "Why? What we are . . .?" Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. As soon as he was addressed "Kṛṣṇa," He was doing like this, "Oh, what you are nonsense speaking?" That should be done. He was enjoying, "Yes. I am greater than Kṛṣṇa. Oh." Because he is leader of the fools, so he is a great fool. Because leader—a great man becomes leader—so he is a fool, so he is a great fool. That's all.

Caitanya Mahāprabhu, by His practical . . . He was Kṛṣṇa Himself. So as soon as He was addressed that, "You are Kṛṣṇa . . ." When He went to Vṛndāvana . . . the incidence is that people saw at night some light in Yamunā dancing. So people thought that, "Kṛṣṇa has again come, and He is curbing down the Kāliya." So people gathered. Every night they used to gather on the bank of the Yamunā, that "Kṛṣṇa has again come."

So Caitanya Mahāprabhu had one personal assistant, Balabhadra. So he asked permission from Caitanya Mahāprabhu that, "Can I go and see Kṛṣṇa? So many people are going." And Caitanya . . . "Don't be foolish. Where is Kṛṣṇa?" So next morning some people came to see Him, Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked them, "How you have seen Kṛṣṇa?" Then some intelligent person, "No, no. It was all wrong impression. It was not Kṛṣṇa. Some fisherman was fishing at night and there was light. The light was dancing like that, and these people took that Kṛṣṇa is dancing."

So actually Kṛṣṇa was present during that time, because Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Kṛṣṇa. But He never said that, "I am Kṛṣṇa." He never said. When people addressed Him that, "You are Kṛṣṇa . . ." Sanātana Gosvāmī some . . . tactfully addressed Him, "Kṛṣṇa." One who directly addressed Him, "Kṛṣṇa"—immediately He used to close His ears like this: "Viṣṇu, Viṣṇu, Viṣṇu. Why you are speaking like that? Why you are addressing an ordinary man as Kṛṣṇa?" This is the teaching.

And if you say: "Oh, Swāmī Mahārāja, you are Kṛṣṇa," and if I accept that, "Oh, yes, I am Kṛṣṇa," then I am greater fool. You are a fool, I am also fool. Is it not? How one can accept that he is Kṛṣṇa, he is greater than Kṛṣṇa? Then he's a greater fool. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31): "One blind man is leading many other blind men." And that is the position. We have got manufactured so many incarnation. Still, there are so many—this mother, that father, this, that, so many. You know prac . . . yes.

All incarnation. All incarnation, they have congested together and spoiling the brain of the poor people. Every day incarnation. And there are many rascals, he says that: "I am Kṛṣṇa's incarnation, and rasa-līlā." You know? Yes. This rascaldom is going on, rasa-līlā. And people are so fool that they send their wife and their daughter for performing rasa-līlā. Things are going on like that.

You know the Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's life? A similar rasa-līlā was going on. You know that story? Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was magistrate, and one person in Orissa, he declared himself that "I am Viṣṇu," and in the village he was enticing young women and girls to dance at night. And some of them protested, and they lodged complaint to the government that, "This person is doing like that." And the government commissioner, he knew that Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, Kedāranātha Datta, was a very elevated, religious man, and he was magistrate. So the commissioner entrusted the inquiry to Kedāranātha Datta at that time.

So Kedāranātha Datta, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, took the matter and went to inquire at that . . . in the village of Orissa, with some constables in plain dress. So when he went there . . . he had some yogic power, so immediately he could say: "Oh, your name is Kedāranātha Datta. I know you are very good man, but don't be after me. You will not be happy. And I shall elevate you to become the king of this country. Don't be after me."

Now, if anyone . . . he was Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, a strong devotee. If any other person would have been addressed like that, he would be immediately puzzled: "How this man is talking about me, that I am Kedāranātha Datta, I am magistrate and . . .?" So he would not do anything. But Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was so strong, he said: "Yes. Thank you very much that I shall become king. So why don't you go to Jagannātha Purī and stay there? That is a nice pilgrimage, and you can stay there. Many holy men go there. Why you are in this village?" He wanted to drive him away from that village.

"Oh, what is that Jagannātha? That is wood. I am Viṣṇu." As soon as he said, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura became fire, "Oh, this rascal is like that." He immediately ordered, "Arrest him. Arrest him." And he showed some fiery spark coming from his jāta. So the constables were hesitating to arrest him, but Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura ordered, "Yes, immediately arrest him. Handcuff." So he took him away, arrested.

And as soon as he returned home, all the members of his family were in fever, high degree fever, and Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura himself was in fever. He made some trick, yogic trick. So his wife began to cry, "Oh, you have arrested one great yogī. He is Viṣṇu, and therefore we are now going to die. We are now . . ." (laughter) So Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura: "Yes, you die. All die. Still, what I have done is all right."

Then when there is date for appearance in the court, in the court the man was brought, and yogī. You see? And Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura asked . . . Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was suffering still in fever. Still, he attended the court and asked the constables that, "Cut his jāta."

Haṁsadūta: What is jāta?

Prabhupāda: Jāta is hair. Hair. Jāta. So no barber was available. (laughter) Because they knew that Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, after arresting, he is suffering from fever. Whole family is lying down in fever. So nobody came forward to cut his jāta. So Bhaktivinoda, "All right, bring one scissor. I shall cut." So he personally cut, and personally cut, and that man became very thin immediately after cutting his jāta. He had some power in the jāta. And he ordered six months' imprisonment. And in the prison he managed to take some poison and die.

So devotees are so strong. They can know what is what. You see? He was not puzzled that, "He is Viṣṇu and this . . ." No. So we should learn from the Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's treatment that this jugglery or this so-called power is not . . . no good for advancement in spiritual life. You have to follow the regulative principles as enjoined in the śāstra. Yaḥ śāstra vidhim utsṛjya. If you do not follow the injunction of the śāstra, then there is no possibility of attaining perfection. Na siddhiṁ sāvapnoti.

So our business is to accept a bona fide spiritual master, being guided by him, to follow the rules and regulation. Then advancement is sure. There is no doubt about it. And if we become hodgepodge and mix with hodgepodge and do hodgepodge, there is no progress. Na siddhim. It is clearly said by Kṛṣṇa, "There is no question of perfection," na sukham, "neither happiness," na parāṁ gatim, "and what to speak of being promoted to the spiritual world? There is no . . ."

Therefore vaidhi-bhakti, as it is enunciated in the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, Nectar of Devotion, by the Gosvāmīs, we shall try to follow as far as possible. Be sincere and hard-working. Then the success is sure. Not to be bewildered, misled by the so-called avatāra, incarnation. You see? The so-called avatāras, they are simply rascals. Especially in Bengal, every day there is an avatāra. (laughter)

Devotee: The other day I received a postcard . . . (indistinct) . . . that, "Some Viṣṇu has appeared in some temple, next to . . . (indistinct) . . . please come and see us."

Prabhupāda: Just see. So many. Everyone.

Guest: Just ten years ago there was . . . (indistinct) . . . and he was speaking sometimes, "I am the incarnation. I am Brahman."

Prabhupāda: Yes. In Kanpur also one man has been arrested.

Guest: And just one man, he is coming, and thousands of people just near the . . . (indistinct) . . . protested. They are at liberty. They can do. "Why you are protesting?" Then we told, "He is misrepresenting the Vedānta and ācāryas. He doesn't accept the Veda-sanctioned authorities, so we don't want him." . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Now state is secular, therefore this is the condition. Formerly the kings and the executive heads were very responsible to protect religion. That is the duty of the king, to protect. Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja, when he was on tour, as soon as he saw that one man is trying to kill a cow, immediately he became fire, "Oh, in my kingdom there is killing of cow? Who are you? I shall immediately kill you." You know this? The kings were taking. The kings were so responsible. But here they have declared . . . the so-called kings, they are themselves debauch, and they do not know what is religion.

Therefore, in the Kali-yuga there is no other alternative than to chant peacefully, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. There is no protection. And what does the executive heads, the presidents or secretaries? They simply manipulate some votes, third-class men. Who has written that article?

Devotees: Satsvarūpa.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) What he has written? "In this age government is ruled by . . .?"

Guest: The lowest class.

Prabhupāda: "The lowest class of men." He is bold enough to declare like that. One of our students, he has written an article in which he has said that, "At the present moment, everywhere, the government is ruled by lowest class of men." And he's right in this sense, because this is the verdict of the Vedas. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad guṇā (SB 5.18.12). Unless one is a devotee of the Personality of Godhead, he cannot have any good qualification. That's a fact. And one who is a devotee, all good qualifications automatically develop. (noise) What is this? Hmm?

Devotee: He tipped a glass of water.

Prabhupāda: So as far as possible, let us follow the footsteps of mahājana—mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186)—and depend on Kṛṣṇa and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything will be all right. The simple method. Try to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teachings. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and be sincere, and, as far as possible, worship the Deity. Everything is all right.

(break) . . . camp, the servant's camp was overcrowded, and people would come to our camp.

Guest: The university's there. Intellectuals are . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. So many judges and high-court retired justice, they also came. And one retired judge, Gaṅgeśvarānanda, he admitted that, "Swāmījī, for the first time it is my experience that you are explaining Personality of Godhead so nicely." He was also under the impression God is impersonal. Gaṅgeśvarānanda. (cut) (end)