731209 - Morning Walk - Los Angeles

Morning Walks by Date, 1973

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

731209MW-LOS ANGELES - December 09, 1973 - 48:05 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . he's son of God, we . . . (break)

Prajāpati: Many of the men who founded this country were very pious, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Prajāpati: Some of the founding fathers of the country were very pious, because . . .

Prabhupāda: You are still pious. Otherwise, how you have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? You are still pious, but you are misguided. Your, your nation is very good. I like the American nation. Simply little reformation required. Now just, for example, this "In God We Trust." This is very nice example. Now, they do not know what is God, how to trust. That is . . . that has to be done. That has to be learned.

Prajāpati: Trust means to depend completely upon God?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Just like Arjuna. While Arjuna was fighting the battle, he completely dependent on Kṛṣṇa. But he was not idle. Completely . . . to depend completely on God does not mean idleness. Arjuna is the example. Kṛṣṇa never advised Arjuna that, "You are My friend. You are My devotee, completely dependent upon Me. So you can sit down." Never said like that. Similarly, we should remain always completely dependent upon God. That does not mean we shall be lazy and idle and gossiping. We must fully utilize the intelligence which God has given us, but at the same time, we must completely depend on God. This is called "In God We Trust."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is called?

Prabhupāda: "We trust in God." I am speaking that American currency notes bears the slogan "In God We Trust."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I am talking on that matter. So if the American nation trusts in God . . . if not . . . they say, they have declared. Now, the difficulty is they do not know actually what is God, how to trust. That we are teaching. So the government must come forward to cooperate with us. This should be . . . there should be an agitation. Now this "In God We Trust," it is, it is something like vague idea. There is a need of . . .

(aside) You can make copy from there. Yes. (about tape recorders) If you bring one dozen like this, then it is difficult to walk.

So our propaganda should be to the United, I mean to say, United States' government and public. And you are theologicians. You should make program that simply saying that, "In God We Trust," and we do all nonsense, which exhibits that we do not trust in God, this thing should be stopped. You have placed in your Constitution, there is, you trust in God. Now you should understand what is God and how to trust. That we are teaching. This should be taken very seriously. Because you cannot change your Constitution. Already there is that. But you must know it perfectly well what is God and how to trust Him. That science we are teaching, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. The government should cooperate fully. There should be school, college, to understand what is God, how to trust. This movement should be started. What do you think?

Karandhara: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many things. Actually, if the American nation take it seriously, "In God We Trust . . ." They must take it seriously, because it is Constitution. Then the whole world will change. The whole world will change. Not only that; the Americans . . . just like they are always combatting with the Communists. Similarly, the American nation should be so strong that anyone godless, he should be fired. Any nation who does not believe in God, war declared: "Either you believe in God or come on, fight. Come under us." This should be the . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is like the . . .

Prabhupāda: It is not that God consciousness, just like our Gaurasundara, to go to a solitary place and do all rascals . . . and rascaldom—sell the temple and go to the solitary place. This kind of God-trust, rascaldom, hooliganism, is no trust. You see? This is all hooliganism, nonsense.

Prajāpati: There is no trust without obedience.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. There is no . . . there is no question of trust. Yes. That is, that is the first requirement in the Bhagavad-gītā, "You surrender unto Me." That means, "You trust." I cannot surrender unto you if I do not trust you. That is trust. I don't believe you, how can I trust you? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That is full trust. "Yes, I must surrender to Kṛṣṇa. He, He . . ." Just like Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura sings:

mānasa deha geha jo kichu mora

arpilū tuwā pade nanda-kiśora

(from Śaraṇāgati)

"Nanda-kiśora, Kṛṣṇa, now I fully surrender unto You. And what I have got? I have got my mind, I have got my body, and I have got my family. So everything I surrender unto You. Deha, geha, everything." This is our possession. Otherwise . . . I cannot say: "I possess this universe." But I can say: "I possess this body. I have got some mind. And I have got some little family. So everything I surrender unto You." Mānasa deha geha jo kichu . . . arpilū tuwā pade nanda-kiśora. Now what kind of surrender? Mārobi rākhobi, jo icchā tohārā: "Now I have surrendered. If you want, you can kill me. And if You want, You can keep me." This is surrender. This is trust. "If You like, You can kill me. And if You like, You can save me." Jo icchā tohārā. "That depends on Your free will, because You are completely independent." This is surrender. This is trust.

Then activities begins. Then he will act according to the order of Kṛṣṇa. When he has surrendered, he'll do as Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Just like our students are doing. They have surrendered unto me. I am dictating, "You do this. You worship like this," they are doing. This is surrender. They are doing. "You chant like this. You live like this. You worship like this." This is surrender. So, without any consideration, whether this chanting . . . of course, there must be consideration. Otherwise, how they are doing? But this obedience is there. That is called surrender. Mārobi rākhobi jo icchā tohārā. Where to go?

Devotee: This way.

Prabhupāda: Nitya-dāsa prati tuwā adhikārā. Just like slaves, sometimes the master used to kill. In this country?

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is not very good. Therefore these . . . they have became independent now. But actually, slave means that. If the master likes . . . what is that light? Some ship?

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Karandhara: That's an oil well.

Prabhupāda: Oh, oil drilling. So you are theologician. You start this movement, plus our Hare Kṛṣṇa party. And leaders, the propaganda should be that the, at least the priests, who are conducting religious activities, they, the priests and the leaders and the administrators, they must be sinless. Or . . . sinless means they should not indulge in these four prohibited principles. Others may do. But the leaders, the political executive, administrators, and the priests who are conducting the church, they must be free from sinful life. Otherwise, there is no question of peace in the society.

Prajāpati: These leaders, they must be above suspicion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion." If the leaders, the priests and the executive heads are all rascal rogues, thieves, and within suspicion, then how there can be, I mean to say, peace in the world? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement . . . war was declared against Arjuna because he's . . . he was sinful. Therefore Kṛṣṇa declared war, "You must kill them. You must kill them, Arjuna." Arjuna was declined, "Oh, let them go. They are my brothers." "No, you must kill them. Don't talk nonsense." That is Kṛṣṇa's idea. That is Bhagavad-gītā. The whole Bhagavad-gītā was spoken just to induce Arjuna to kill the godless, the sinful. That is Bhagavad-gītā.

Prajāpati: Actually, it's very good for them to be killed by a devotee.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a murderer is to be killed. Then his sins out of this murdering will be counteracted. If he lives, then he has to suffer so many tribulations. Better let him be killed. Then everything's finished. Life for life. And if there are good leaders, then they will see that the cheating scientists, they're spoiling state money. They'll be stopped in their nefarious activities. They could not become successful in the moon expedition. Now they have made another plan, Venus expe . . . what is? Venus expedition?

Karandhara: Mars, Jupiter.

Hṛdayānanda: Mars.

Prabhupāda: Mars. You see? But the rascal government does not . . . you could not become successful about the moon expedition. Why you are asking money again?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say they are successful.

Prabhupāda: What is that successful?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they have gone to the moon. So that was a direct . . .

Prabhupāda: That you are not successful. You live there. What is the use of going there?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They wanted to know what is going on there.

Prabhupāda: Oh. That is another rascaldom. What is going on . . . there are so many things going on. So you have to spend money for going all to the planets, what they are doing, or . . . only for that?

Karandhara: They haven't taken care of business here.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Just see . . .

Karandhara: They haven't taken care of things here.

Prabhupāda: . . . how rascaldom is going on. What is the use of our going there? "Things are going on . . ." Suppose in another state, something is going on. So are you interested? Going . . . let them go. What is the benefit out of it? You spend so much money, public, simply to see, "There is a crack." Last conclusion: "There was a crack." Just see how they are spoiling hard-earned public money. Because there is no good leader, all these rascals are benefiting, taking their money and enjoying, and giving bluff information to the public. This should be stopped. Immediately this should be stopped.

What is their contribution? The same thing: a dog is already barking, and because they're imitating barking, they're being awarded Nobel Prize: "Oh, how you can bark nicely!" This is going on. There is life already. It is practical. Everyone sees that a man and woman combines and there is child, life, another life. And now, foolishly they want to prove that life comes from matter. And as soon as we offer that, "You take this matter. Produce," "That we shall see later on." Just see. In this way, they're spoiling money. So because there is no good leader, these rascals are not stopped.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They call this "A new frontier of knowledge."

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: "New frontier of knowledge."

Prabhupāda: Yes, because the new frontier of knowledge for the rascals, not for the intelligent men. They're . . . the same example: If somebody imitates barking of the dog, if he says: "This is new frontier of knowledge," so a foolish man can believe that, "How you have learned to bark like dog! Oh, great advancement." But an intelligent man says: "What is the use of your this barking, imitation barking? There is already dogs who are barking." Just like there is a . . . it is a fact, not story. One man, he went out of his village, and after ten years, he came back, advertised himself that "I have become successful in yoga practice."

So naturally villagers surrounded him: "Oh, you have . . .? What yoga practice you have learned?" "I can walk on the water." "Oh?" Actually, even at the present moment, if somebody comes and says: "I can walk . . ." many people will come, thousands of men. So when everything arrangement was that he'll cross the river, walking on the water, one old man came. He said: "Sir, it is very wonderful, but it is two paisa–worth. Two paisa–worth." "Why?" "Now, you will walk and go the other side; I'll take a boat, pay him two paisa, I'll do the same thing. So what is your credit?"

So those who are actually intelligent men, they will take like that, that "What actual profit you have made? You have spent millions and millions of dollars, and you say: 'Now, we have seen in the moon there is a crack.' " So this bluffing to the public must be stopped. They're squandering money, public money, and we Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we cannot do our activities for want of money. They have become so fools. How they are squandering money simply by bluffing the another set of rascals that they are advancing in scientific knowledge. They are rascals, and they're cheating other rascals that they're advancing. And result is they're squandering public money. What do you think, Mr. Scientist?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is not, though . . . just like we are learning about Kṛṣṇa from Śrīla Prabhupāda . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So just exactly like that, the scientists, they're trying to learn something what was not known before.

Prabhupāda: No, what is not known? Barking was already known. Suppose if you can produce life—life is already there. What is your credit? Life is al . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that's not enough.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that knowledge is not enough.

Prabhupāda: No, why not enough? Everyone knows that a man and woman combines and there is life again.

Karandhara: Well, they want to control the process.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Karandhara: They want to control the process, because . . .

Prabhupāda: Why? Why you should control? Why?

Karandhara: That is the reason of their research.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Control the process? They cannot control. They are trying to control to minimize population, but the record is that every minute there is three men increasing. Every minute. The population increasing. It is not diminishing. In spite of their so many contraceptive methods, killing, abortion, the population is increasing. You cannot stop it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say . . . they give the credit to the medical science. They say . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, what is that credit?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Medical science has advanced so much that now people are . . .

Prabhupāda: Medical science has given the chance of committing sinful activities. That's all. And the medical man and the man who is committing such sinful activities, they will suffer. This is the advantage of their so-called medical science. They do not know. They have . . . they have sanctioned this abortion, medical science. Means they have given chance to commit sinful activities. That's all. So, so many rascaldom is going on all over the world, and we, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, wants to stop all this nonsense and save the humanity from going down to the animal kingdom. That is our program. They are . . .

They have become just like animals, and next life they are going to be animals. That law they do not know. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). They do not believe in dehāntara-prāptiḥ. That is their nonsense. And now, what kind of dehāntara, change of body? That also they do not know. That is also going to happen. If you become like cats and dogs, you get cats' and dogs' life. There is nature's law. But they do not know. They're misguiding simply. And if it is so that I have got now nice, human form of body, and next life I'm going to be a dog, is that advancement of civilization? Simply cheating. Everyone is cheating.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say they don't care about next life, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is foolishness. Just like a child is playing whole day, and if you ask, "Go to school," "I don't care for future life." It is . . . it is just like that. It is just like that. How the guardians can tolerate that, that this rascal is going to be a fool number one if he's not educated? So we are guardians. We are representative of Kṛṣṇa. We cannot see this. The rascal may say like that, but we cannot tolerate this. This is our proposition. We must see that things are going on nicely, according to the plan of God. That is our duty. The rascal may say like that, but we cannot stop there. So this is a serious movement, and you should take very seriously from all angles of vision.

(pause)

Just like these Africans, they stopped my entrance. These rascals are thinking that Africa belongs to them. It is God's property. These usurpers, these rogues and thieves, a few Africans, they are thinking, "It is our property." Huge state, huge land, huge food products can be produced there and utilized for the whole human society. But they are thinking, "It is my property. We shall not allow."

So many wrong things are going on in the name of nationalism, in the name of scientific advancement, and people are suffering. How we can see that? Everybody has bluffed so long. Now we have to stop them. This is our movement. You should ask, theologician, the government, "What kind of trust? Is it scientific trust, or simply . . .?" They do not trust. They do not trust even in . . . so-called Christian, they do not trust in Jesus Christ. But they are going on as Christian, as priest. Cheating and bluffing should be stopped. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. The rascals are flourishing by cheating and bluffing. This business should be stopped. So what do you think, Karandhara Prabhu?

Karandhara: Yes, Prabhupāda. It must be stopped.

Prabhupāda: How much important is your movement, just try to understand.

Prajāpati: This will be accomplished only by your blessing, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: No. (laughs) My blessings are already there. Kṛṣṇa's blessings are . . . but if you don't take the blessings, then how it will be done? You have to fight. Arjuna never said, "By blessings, the fight will go on." You must fight. It is not like that, "Your blessing . . ." Fight. My blessing is there. You have to fight. Arjuna never said to Kṛṣṇa, "Sir, you are the Supreme Lord. By Your blessings, I'll win over the war." Kṛṣṇa said: "No. You must fight. My blessings are there." That is wanted. We have to fight. Not that take a room and chant, peacefully chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not like that. We must fight.

Prajāpati: But later . . . lately, we've been reading in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam how Arjuna's potency was gone. He was not even able to protect Kṛṣṇa's wives. What was missing there?

Prabhupāda: No, that, that, that is a example, that without Kṛṣṇa's help, everything is useless. Otherwise, how Kṛṣṇa's wife can be stolen away by others, the plan was different. But the outward show is that without Kṛṣṇa's mercy, nothing can be successful, even you have got the same bow, same arrows, same man. But Kṛṣṇa . . . we must depend . . . that is trust. We have to depend on Kṛṣṇa's mercy. At the same time, we have to work. That is required. It may be Arjuna was proud that, "I am Arjuna. I am taking them. Who can touch them?" That proudness. You see? And might be. It is quite natural.

Prajāpati: So we must also be very much on guard for this pride.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. You should not be falsely proud. The whole material world is falsely proud. Their whole program is to defy God. And our program is to declare war against these rascals. Everyone is trying to defy God. What do you think, scientist?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But their duty should have been . . . scientist's duty should have been that, "God has created so wonderful things. So glorify God." That should have been the scientist's duty, "How nicely He has made!" That is scientist's duty, everyone's duty.

Prajāpati: In the early days of science, about three, four hundred years ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda, many of the early scientists were persecuted by the Church for their discoveries. So since that time, the scientists have declared war on religion, and they have been doing their best to try to disprove all religious things.

Prabhupāda: What they have discovered? These four hundred years, the scientists said that there is no God?

Prajāpati: No, they were . . . one scientist, Galileo, he was making all kinds of inquiries into saying that the earth is round and so many things, and the Church of that day, the rascal priests, they put him to death because he was saying things that were not in the scriptures. Since that time, especially the last hundred years, the scientists are . . .

Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that it is the government's duty to see that nobody is rascal, either the scientist is rascal or the priest is rascal. There must be real understanding. That is government's duty. Otherwise, if the priest says: "The scientist speaking against religion; therefore he should be hanged," so that is not good government. Government must see that whether the scientist is speaking the truth. That sense must be there. Yes, world is round. That is fact. Goloka.

In Vedic literature it is Bhū-gola, jagad-aṇḍa. These words are there. We can see also it is round, jagad-aṇḍa. The universe is round. And Goloka, or Bhū-gola. Bhū-gola, the earth is round. So the Vedic literatures . . . therefore their knowledge is also imperfect, because they do not refer to the Vedic literatures. It is already there. Bhū-gola. Bhū means the earth; gola means round. It is already there. And the geography's called, according to Sanskrit, it is called Bhū-gola. Long, long ago, before Galileo.

So if the state is blind, he does not see whether he's talking right or wrong, then havi candra raja gobi candra mantri. What can be done? That is going on. Because the government means a set of fools, so all foolish people are flourishing. Government is a set of fools because sins are there. They cannot be intelligent. A sinful man cannot be intelligent. Yes. That's a fact. If he's intelligent, then his intelligence is used for wrong things. Duṣkṛtina. Kṛtina. Kṛtina means intelligent, but duṣkṛtina, badly intelligent, for doing wrong things. (japa)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Of course, there is a gap of understanding.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a gap of understanding.

Prabhupāda: Gap of understanding because the basic principle is wrong, because everyone is fool. And they are trying to understand things with their foolish background. There is the wrong. They are trying to be advanced in knowledge on the foolish background. They do not accept that, that they are foolish rascals. And they are trying to advance in knowledge, active foolish, fourth-class men. Their background is wrong. No scientist, no politician, no philosophers at the present moment believe in this, that there is soul, and the soul is transmigrating from one body . . . nobody believes it. So their whole background is foolish. So their so-called advancement must be all foolish.

They're all fools, rascals, animals. An animal does not know that there is soul and the soul is transmigrating from one body to another. This is animal conception. You cannot teach these pigeons that "You are spirit soul. Your body's different from you." They will . . . they have no power to understand. So if a human being cannot understand, what is the difference between these pigeons and cats and dogs and him? Then basic principle is wrong. Just like in mathematical calculation, if at one point you have mistaken, then will that be correct ever? It will go on mistaking, mistaking, mistaking, mistaking. If the, if one point, while adding, you have made two plus two equal to five, then after that, everything wrong, everything wrong, everything wrong.

So that is their position. Their basic principle is like animal. The animal cannot understand that there is soul and there is transmigration of the soul. And if the human society makes progress of their so-called knowledge on this wrong basis understanding, then what will be the result? Everything wrong, everything wrong, everything wrong. Everything foolish. That is stated in the Bhāgavata: parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam (SB 5.5.5): "If somebody does not know what is ātma-tattva, what is the science of soul, then whatever he is making so-called advancement, that is all defeat." Parābhava. That is being done. And defeat they are taking as success. Just like these rascal scientists, they could not go and settle in the moon planet. Still, they are saying: "It is success. It is success." Just see the fun. What success? You could not stay there, and what success you have got? Simply by seeing a crack? "Yes." That's all right, success. And people are accepting, "Oh, yes, you are successful. Now go to another planet." These bogus things are going on.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're called technolo . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: They may call whatever they like. But we are sane man. We cannot take the . . . we can say only that, "You are all defeated." They may say. A fool will never agree that he's a fool. He'll always say: "I am very intelli . . ." That is another foolishness. After spending millions of . . . for one coat for going to the moon planet? Forty thousand dollar? What is that?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh. Billions of dollars were spent.

Prabhupāda: That coat?

Śrutakīrti: No, coat.

Brahmānanda: Spacesuit.

Karandhara: Oh, yes. Millions of dollars.

Prabhupāda: Just see how they are spending, squandering public money. You see? But nobody is to stop this.

Prajāpati: The demons, they have always been trying to make staircases and towers up to heaven.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Demonic.

Prajāpati: In the Bible it is also. An attempt was made to build a big, huge tower up to heaven. And the Lord was not very pleased with this attempt, and He scattered all the people. (referring to waves) Just wants to touch your lotus feet, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Big, powerful waves, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Big, powerful waves.

Prabhupāda: No, not very much. Up to this powerful. (laughter) Up to ten feet, that's all. (break)

Prajāpati: . . . if these world leaders and scientists could hear your nectarean words and accept them and surrender, the world would be a very wonderful place.

Prabhupāda: Then make them. That is your duty. I am talking to you, and you talk to them. That is paramparā system. Alone, I cannot go everywhere. Now you learn and you speak.

Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . first-class economist. We are trying to save the state money from being unnecessarily squandered away. The so-called scientists, politicians, they are simply wasting money. (break)

Prajāpati: . . . feel this condition is hopeless.

Prabhupāda: No, not at all. You simply expose these rascals, and everything hopeful. You have to know how to expose these rascals. That's all.

Hṛdayānanda: So the more we preach and chant, the more we become purified.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to become powerful spiritually. Then you'll be able. If you remain weak and manufacture your own way, then it will not be possible.

Hṛdayānanda: Oh. Jaya. (break)

Prajāpati: . . . think the strength is our own, though.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Prajāpati: We should not think that this is our own strength.

Prabhupāda: No. We have to work by the strength of Kṛṣṇa. Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam (BG 10.10). He'll give, supply the strength. Or, in other words, you have already got the strength. You have to revive it. That's all. Actually, that is the position. As spiritual spark, we have got immense strength. But we are now identifying with this body. (break) . . . hill. It was formerly very high. Now why it has gone down, this hill?

Hṛdayānanda: Oh, rocks.

Prabhupāda: Rocks, yes.

Karandhara: Because the ocean's moved up. It's just that the tides are way in.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The waves are bigger.

Prabhupāda: But . . .

Karandhara: They used to be able . . . there used to be a big pipe you could see, but now it's all covered under the ocean.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but daily we see it is covered. Why? That means?

Śrutakīrti: The tides go in and out.

Prajāpati: The phases of the moon, Śrīla Prabhupāda, affect the tides.

Prabhupāda: That I know. Or due to this moon, yes. Now it will go down, after this full moon. Yes. (break)

Prajāpati: . . . Christmas, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They'd be better off celebrating the fact that you're here.

Prabhupāda: I say they are not Christian. They're all atheists. Christians, one who is actually Christian, he's good. But they are not Christians. They do not believe in Christ, neither in his words. So what kind of Christian they are?

Hṛdayānanda: They're such rascals that some of the young student so-called Christians, they even preach that.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, any Hindus, so-called Hindu, if he does not believe in the words of Kṛṣṇa, what kind of Hindu he is? He's a rascal. He's a rascal.

Prajāpati: In days gone by, there were pious Christians who tried to follow in the footsteps of saintly persons, but there are no more . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Christians must be always pious.

Prajāpati: There are no more . . .

Prabhupāda: There cannot be impious Christian or pious Christian. Christian must be pious. If somebody's impious, then he's not Christian.

(break) . . . impious thief cannot be. (laughs) Thief is always impious. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma . . . (CC Adi 17.21). (break)

Prajāpati: . . . trusting in God. And then, when they realize they are not, then we can show them how to trust in God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "You do not know. You come to us and learn how to trust, how to know. And if you speak lies, that you do not know what is God, that is a different thing. Then you should be punished." People should be given chance of believing, trusting in God. They have declared. So it is their duty. The state duty is to see how people are trusting. That is state's duty. Constitution says that nobody can steal. Is it not state's duty that people are not becoming thieves and stealing? Is it not the duty of the state? Similarly, if you, if you have accepted this, that "In God We Trust," you must see that everyone trusts in God. And that is scientifically, not sentimentally. It is the duty of the state to see.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like in an empty slogan. The slogan is empty.

Prabhupāda: So that is not required. It must be practical. Empty slogan has no meaning.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The way it's written . . .

Devotee: Why was, why was Lord Rāma letting Rāvaṇa live in Laṅkā?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee: Why was He permitting him to live there? He was irreligious. He did not trust in God. Why was Lord Rāma letting him . . .?

Prabhupāda: No, no. He was killed therefore. He was not allowed to live there. Therefore Rāmacandra went there to kill him. "You rascal. You must be killed." Why do you say that he was allowed?

Devotee: Well . . .

Prabhupāda: He was not allowed.

Devotee: For some time. For some time.

Prabhupāda: For sometimes every thief flourishes. That is another thing. But he must be punished.

Devotee: Hmm. He was punished.

Prabhupāda: You can cheat for some time everyone, but you cannot be allowed to cheat everyone for all the time. That is not possible. (break) . . . law. Therefore Lord Rāmacandra could create millions of Sītā. So the purpose was to kill this atheist. Therefore, it was . . . (break) (end)