740615 - Conversation A - Paris

Conversations by Date, 1974

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

740615R1-PARIS - June 15, 1974 - 77:46 Minutes

(Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto, Kali-yuga)

Prabhupāda: The democracy also is described, in Kali-yuga.

Satsvarūpa: Eleventh Canto?

Prabhupāda: In Twelfth Canto.

(pause) (break) . . . it is stated:

tasmāt kṣudra-dṛśo martyāḥ

kṣudra-bhāgyā mahāśanāḥ

kāmino vitta-hīnāś ca

svairiṇyaś ca striyo 'satīḥ

(SB 12.3.31)

"Gradually people will become dwarf, will die very soon, mostly unfortunate, eating too much, and very much sexually agitated, no money, and independent, and the women, all unchaste."

Just see. Everything's coming true. Rājan . . .

rājānaś ca prajā-bhakṣāḥ

śiśnodara-parā dvijāḥ

dasyūtkṛṣṭā janapadā

vedāḥ pāṣaṇḍa-dūṣitāḥ

(SB 12.3.32)

"The cities will be full of rogues and thieves." Just see.

Yogeśvara: That's Paris.

Prabhupāda: Anywhere. In Calcutta recently it was dangerous to go out because the next . . . you do not know whether you'll come back. People are so afraid. He's going to work in the office. It will be God's grace if he returns back. It is such a city. Actually so happened. We were sitting, I was at that time in a . . . I was guest in our Life Member's. Sitting in morning, at ten o'clock. "Oh, that gentleman is killed." He was very important businessman. He went to the temple, a Marwari, and on his coming back, he was killed from the back side. Life is still so, but it is little diminished. (break) . . . about so-called saintly persons, they are tapasvino grāma-vāsāḥ: "The so-called yogīs, they'll live in the town." (chuckles) Actually, the yogīs have no business in the town. They should go to a secluded place. But they will live in . . . just like the other . . . he's living in Paris City, and he's a yogī.

Yogeśvara: This is all from the Twelfth Canto?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Foretold, five thousand years ago. Here said, tapasvino grāma-vāsā nyāsino 'tyartha-lolupāḥ: "And the sannyāsīs, they'll be too much greedy about money."

Yogeśvara: Just see.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

hrasva-kāyā mahāhārā

bhūry-apatyā gata-hriyaḥ

śaśvat kaṭuka-bhāṣiṇyaś

caurya-māyoru-sāhasāḥ

(SB 12.3.34)

Patiṁ tyakṣyanti nirdravyaṁ bhṛtyā apy akhilottamam. "The natural tendency will be to give up, divorce, husband, especially when he has no sufficient money." The wife will divorce. Or the husband has no sex power, the wife . . . the divorce case takes place in two: when the sex indulgence is not very good, and when the husband has no money. Hmm. Here it is:

vāso 'nna-pāna-śayana-

vyavāya-snāna-bhūṣaṇaiḥ

hīnāḥ piśāca-sandarśā

bhaviṣyanti kalau prajāḥ

(SB 12.3.40)

"In the Kali-yuga, the general public, having no residence, vāsa," you see? I was surprised when I saw in the beginning that they are lying down on the street in the Bowery. They have no place. They pay one dollar, and the Lion's . . . what is that?

Satsvarūpa: Salvation Army.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. The Lions . . .

Yogeśvara: Lion's Club?

Prabhupāda: Lion's Range, or something. They give shelter at night. They pay one dollar and lie down. And morning, they go away. There I have seen many signboards in Bowery Street.

Yogeśvara: They call them "flop houses."

Prabhupāda: Anyway. So vāsaḥ anna. Food. Vāsaḥ anna. Vāsa means residence. Anna means food. Pāna means drinking—milk or water or whatever. You require something drinking. And śayana, sleeping, or lying down on bed. Vāsa, anna, pāna, śayana, and vyavāya, sex. Sex also required. Vyavāya, snāna. I have seen in New York, they have no . . . in a Hamburg, they have no place for taking bath. They have to go elsewhere. Sometimes some friends come to take bath. The, our students, they were coming to take bath in my bathroom. So snāna. So these things, nil. "When these things will be nil," vāsa, anna, pāna, śayana, vyavāya, snāna, bhūṣaṇaiḥ, "and dress," hīnāḥ, "being devoid of all these things," piśāca-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti, "they will be just like," what is called, "urchins."

Yogeśvara: Piśācī.

Prabhupāda: These hippies, they are exactly this. They have no place to sleep, no nothing of the sort, and looking like big, big hair. Piśācī. Piśāca. What is the English?

Nitāi: Ghost?

Prabhupāda: Ghost, yes. Ghost, yes. Ghostlike. Hīnāḥ piśāca-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti kalau prajāḥ: "In the Kali-yuga, the prajāḥ, people in general, devoid of residence and proper food, then proper drinking, resting place or sex or bathing and dress, they'll look like ghost." Then?

kalau kākiṇike 'py arthe

vigṛhya ca tyakta-sauhṛdāḥ

tyakṣyanti ca priyān prāṇān

haniṣyanti svakān api

(SB 12.3.41)

In the Kali-yuga, for a cent, for the matter of taking a cent only, he'll give up his friendship with others. And even his own man, family man, relative, he'll kill him to take that two cent or five cent. Na rakṣiṣyanti manujāḥ sthavirau pitarāv api.

Satsvarūpa: The guests are here.

Nitāi: There are many guests here to see you.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. "Even they'll not give protection old parents."

Yogeśvara: To old parents?

Prabhupāda: Old parents. (guests come in) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Jyotirmayī: So I'd like to introduce you to these gentlemen and these ladies. He is . . . he's called Pere Canivez. Pere Canivez, here, and he is the Secretary of the Bishops of France, and he would like to come and discuss with you. Here is the Pere Fransard. He's a Christian priest also who, that I knew, and so by his help Pere Canivez came. And he'd like to come with this lady who's come, Madame Siaude. She's living in India usually.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you live in India?

Madame Siaude: Yeah, in the French part of, far eastern state, in Pondicherry.

Prabhupāda: Pondicherry?

Madame Siaude: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Aurobindo's place.

Madame Siaude: Yes, I have been there a long time.

Jyotirmayī: And she was studying with Monsieur Laconde, this gentleman who came yesterday. She's very much studying Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Vaiṣṇava philosophy.

Jyotirmayī: Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And we'd like to invite also Monsieur Misraki. He's a compositor of music, but he also wrote book on life after death and many different things. So he was interested to come also. So they all came together.

Prabhupāda: So they are all nice gentlemen and ladies. It is . . .

Jyotirmayī: And very interesting too, that the first question, one of the first questions that Pere Fransard asked me was, "Do you believe in love of God, and that God is a person? Some people say that God is not a person, and we say God is a person."

Bhagavān: So you can translate in French so that they can understand.

Prabhupāda: At least Christians cannot believe in impersonal God.

Jyotirmayī: What?

Prabhupāda: Christians, they cannot say that God is imperson. Because, because Christ is son of God. So the son is person, how the Father can be imperson? And in the Bible it is said: "There was word in the beginning." That is God's word. So if one has a word, then he's a person. Word comes from the tongue and mouth. As soon as there is word, background is tongue and mouth. And then . . . the Christians pray in the church, "O God, give us our daily bread." So God has got ear so that He will hear and supply. But His personality, His word, His hearing, they're all transcendental, nonmaterial. (Jyotirmayī translates Prabhupāda's words throughout)

Pastor (1): (French)

Jyotirmayī: So he says he agrees on this point. As you say, God is . . . we have a personal relationship with God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, God is person. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Absolute Truth is realized from three angle of vision: Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Bhagavān is person; and Paramātmā, all-pervading, localized; and Brahman, impersonal. Just like the sunshine is impersonal; the sun globe, localized; and the sun-god, person. (break)

Pastor (1): (French)

Jyotirmayī: He says he's accepting some of the things you are saying, but he's doesn't think that he's obliged to accept everything.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Everything is emanation from God. That is our Vedānta-sūtra. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Whatever things are there . . . in the Bible also there is, "Everything comes from Him, what is made." Yesterday, we were reading? Yes. So whatever is created, that is made out of God. And the Vedic injunction is, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma: "Everything is Brahman, the Supreme Brahman." So the impersonal feature is an expansion of God's energy. Just like the sunshine is expansion of the energy of sun, so the sunshine is resting on the bodily rays of the sun-god. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā: the resting place of the impersonal Brahman is God, Kṛṣṇa.

(aside) Find out this verse, brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā.

Nitāi: Brahmaṇaḥ aham . . .

brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham

amṛtasyāvyayasya ca

śaśvatasya ca dharmasya

sukhasyaikāntikasya ca

(BG 14.27)

"I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Nitāi: "The constitution of Brahman . . ."

Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh. You have to explain.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I'll get another.

Bhagavān: In the meantime, we can translate from here.

Pastor (1): (French)

Jyotirmayī: He's asking when . . . how old are the oldest of the Vedic scriptures.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jyotirmayī: He's asking how old are the . . .

Yogeśvara: How old are the Vedas?

Prabhupāda: Vedas?

Yogeśvara: These Vedic scriptures we are reading, how old are they, he's asking.

Prabhupāda: They are from the creation. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye. (aside) Find out this verse. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ (SB 1.1.1). Find out this verse.

Nitāi:

janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ

tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ

tejo-vāri-mṛdāṁ yathā vinimayo yatra tri-sargo 'mṛṣā

dhāmnā svena sadā nirasta-kuhakaṁ satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi

(SB 1.1.1)

Prabhupāda: Now who will translate? You, one by one line, the translation you speak.

Nitāi: Okay. "I offer my obeisances unto Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the son of Vāsudeva, who is the Supreme, all-pervading Personality of Godhead. I meditate upon Him, the transcendent reality, who is the primeval cause of all causes, from whom all manifested universes arise, in whom they dwell and by whom they are destroyed. I meditate upon that eternally effulgent Lord who is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations and yet is beyond them. It is He only who first imparted the Vedic knowledge into the heart of Brahmā . . ."

Prabhupāda: And this is Vedic knowledge.

Nitāi: ". . . who is the first created living being."

Prabhupāda: You read another verse, aham ādir hi devānāṁ maharṣīṇāṁ ca (BG 10.2). Aham ādir hi devānām. (loud banging in background) Never mind, never mind. Don't bother. That's all right.

Nitāi: Oh, it's in the Bhagavad-gītā? Aham . . .?

Prabhupāda: Aham ādir hi devānām. And the Bible it is said: "There was word." That is Vedic knowledge.

Nitāi: Aham ādir hi devānāṁ maharṣīṇāṁ ca sarvaśaḥ: "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the sages know My origin, for in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages."

Yogeśvara: You said also in the Bible it is said: "There is the word."

Prabhupāda: That word, sound, is the Vedas. So before creation, Vedas were there. So you cannot find out the history of Vedas. You find out the history where the creation began. Then, before that, Vedas were there.

Pastor (2): (French)

Yogeśvara: He says that he finds many things agreeable in this Vedic tradition, but he says that he thinks it might be a mistake to say that the Bible is exactly the same thing as the Vedas. He says there are still distinctions.

Prabhupāda: Then, then, distinction, then it is to be considered which is perfect—the later edition or the original.

Pastor (2): (French along with other guests)

Yogeśvara: You can translate?

Jyotirmayī: They are saying that according to their understanding, God revealed Himself little by little, and then at certain moment, He revealed Himself in His totality. But in the Vedic literature, there it is said that the whole knowledge was given at the beginning, everything together.

Pastor (2): (French)

Jyotirmayī: He said that he's very much respecting your research, and that he's asking that we should not say that these two research in Christianism and the Vedas, the scriptures, are the same. They are two different things.

Pastor (2): (French)

Yogeśvara: He says, for example, the verse you read yesterday, that was similar to what is taught in the Vedas, but if we take the rest of that chapter from the Bible, we find some discrepancies, differences.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Pastor (2): (French)

Yogeśvara: For example, in that chapter it also says that the word of God became flesh, and that flesh was the son of God, Lord Jesus Christ.

Prabhupāda: But that means Jesus Christ is transcendental, not of this material world.

Pastor (1): (French)

Yogeśvara: They say . . . they accept . . . they think that Lord Jesus, however, was a human being. He was spiritual, but also that he was part of this material world.

Prabhupāda: No, material world is part of Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ is not part of material world.

Pastor (2): (French, along with others)

Yogeśvara: He says that they had a human body, he had a material body.

Prabhupāda: That human body appears like that, but he had no this material flesh and blood.

Madame Siaude: (French)

Prabhupāda: A material body, how there can be resurrection?

Yogeśvara: If it was material body, how is it possible for him to be resurrected? (French with lady guest)

Prabhupāda: Is that all right?

Jyotirmayī: They said it is by the acintya power of God.

Prabhupāda: These, these rascals, they thought that Jesus had a material body, "Let us kill him." So Jesus Christ bewildered them more, to remain rascal, that they will continue to think that Jesus had a material body.

Jyotirmayī: Bewildered them?

Yogeśvara: Yes, he bewildered them more by saying: "All right, go on thinking like that."

Prabhupāda: That is their punishment. They remain always in darkness that Jesus had a material body.

Yogeśvara: That was their punishment.

Pastor (2): (French)

Jyotirmayī: So he's saying that he respects your explanation, but that the Christians, they have another explanation, and that if we . . .

Prabhupāda: But we must come to the reason before giving explanation. You cannot explain . . .

Yogeśvara: What is the reason for his incarnation?

Prabhupāda: You cannot explain whimsically. You cannot explain whimsically. If Jesus Christ is son of God, he has . . . that means he has got spiritual body. You . . .

Madame Siaude: Yes, we accept that he got the spiritual body, but we say that he assumed also a material body.

Prabhupāda: Now, then, then, another thing is: you accept Jesus Christ the only son of God, is it not? So when you pray in the church, you address God, "O Father." Then why "only son"?

Madame Siaude: We say that the son is . . .

Prabhupāda: Then everyone is son.

Madame Siaude: Yes, we say that this is the same God, yes.

Prabhupāda: If I address God, "My father," then I am his son. So why there should be "only son"?

Madame Siaude: Yes, we say that we are adopted sons. By adoption. (laughter) (French)

Jyotirmayī: They say that they are sons, that all living beings are sons, but by adoption.

Yogeśvara: Adopted son. Yes.

Prabhupāda: So therefore these sons' body and Jesus' body cannot be equal. So adopted son has got material body, not the real son.

Pastor (1): (French)

Yogeśvara: Their idea is that yes, of course, Lord Jesus, being the son of God, his body is spiritual, but because he wanted to take part in the life of the human beings on earth, he actually accepted a material body just to live among men.

Prabhupāda: Why he should accept?

Madame Siaude: But we have a vesper that says that he was died, that he was suffering, and things which show that he was a real man . . .

Prabhupāda: But his death . . . you think that he was died, but he resurrected.

Madame Siaude: But the gospel says that he had died.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Madame Siaude: You cannot . . . we accept the totality of the word, as you accept your word.

Prabhupāda: No. No, no. "Died" means that is similar death. Janma karma me divyam (BG 4.9). Just like Christ take birth from the womb of Mary. It appears like that, but actually that is not.

Madame Siaude: No, it is very important that the death of Christ is a real death. For us, it is the center of our faith. Exactly.

Yogeśvara: They say that the central point of their philosophy is that Lord Jesus actually died.

Pastor (2): (French along with others)

Prabhupāda: No, according to Vedic conception, even ordinary living being, he does not die. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You understand Sanskrit?

Madame Siaude: No, I don't understand it by hearing it. We have to read it.

Prabhupāda: Na hanyate, does not die; hanyamāne śarīre, apparently, the body being dead, the soul is never dead.

Pastor (2): (French)

Yogeśvara: So . . . shall I explain that one? What the good Pastor—are they called Pastor?—describes is that in order for there to be a dialogue, we have to respect each others' positions, not that we will try to convert the other. He says just as we respect you have an absolute faith in the Vedic philosophy, so also there must be respect that the Christian interpretation of the life of Lord Jesus and his death . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, I think I have better respect than him to Jesus Christ. I say he does not die. He says he dies. So far respect is concerned, I have more respect than them. They want to see Jesus Christ dead. I don't want to see him dead.

Madame Siaude: No. Death and resurrection altogether.

Yogeśvara: There's a resurrection.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yogeśvara: Excuse me. Perhaps at this time we can introduce Madame . . . Madame Devi?

Jyotirmayī: So we'd like to introduce Mrs. Devi, who came here also to meet you. She's a very wonderful lady. She's writing a dictionary of mysticism, and she did the whole first part on Western religions, and now she wants to do the following part on the Eastern religions. So she would like very much to talk in this book about ourselves, about the movement of Hare Kṛṣṇa, which is a big part of the Oriental religions.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Recently, there was a historical excavation that Jesus Christ did not die, and he, after crucification, he was taken to Kashmir.

Yogeśvara: Kashmir?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yogeśvara: Where was this? In a newspaper?

Prabhupāda: Yes. In paper I saw.

Madame Siaude: But we are not under historical literally. We try to speak of mystical experience. This is exactly the subject of, that we did. We cannot discuss history, because everybody has his own documentation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So I was very much pleased, because I was very sorry that Jesus Christ was crucified. But when I heard this historical discovery, I was very satisfied. But one thing is that . . . here . . . at least, in London I have seen, there are so many churches vacant.

Pastor (2): (French)

Yogeśvara: He says he was at your conference last night, and he was there when you described how human life is meant for knowing God. So now he wishes to ask you a question: What is our process for coming to know God?

Prabhupāda: That is very simple. It is not at all difficult. Just like in your body, you are, the soul, important active principle . . . (to Jyotirmayī) Explain. (French explanation) Similarly, this huge, gigantic cosmic manifestation must have some active principle. That is God. So where is the difficulty to understand God?

Pastor (2): (French)

Yogeśvara: For example, in our prayers, in our studies, what is our . . .

Prabhupāda: Now first of all, let us understand what is God. Then prayer. If you do not understand God, then what you'll prayer? If we understand that there is the active principle, then the prayer we have already described, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś cārtheṣu abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1): "I pray to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vāsudeva, who is the origin of all creation," this is the active principle. There is. So . . . and how He is working? (to Jyotirmayī) You have to explain. (French explanation) In the beginning of Bhāgavatam, I offering the prayer. So the process is that I offer my all respect to the Absolute Truth, Supreme Truth, from whom the creation has taken place, everything is resting, working nicely, and after annihilation it will go there.

And when you study what is the nature of the original source, it is said, abhijñaḥ, cognizant. He knows everything. Just like I am the owner of this body, I, the soul, but still, I do not know how the body is working. I am eating, but I do not know how my eatables transformed into secretion, then goes to the heart, then . . . of course, they have discovered something, but not fully. So I do not know what is going in within my body. I do not know how many hairs are there. But God knows everything, nook and corner of the whole universe. But if we compare ourself with God, that is impossible, because naturally we get knowledge from others, we may question, "Wherefrom God got knowledge?" Therefore it is stated there, svarāṭ. He hasn't got to take knowledge from anyone else. He's independently full of knowledge.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (interrupting translation) That would be impersonal.

Prabhupāda: On the other hand, he imparted knowledge to Brahmā, the first creation of this universe. That knowledge is called Vedic knowledge. That means Vedic knowledge is coming from God, and it is being distributed through Brahmā. And He's so mysterious that even learned scholars become bewildered to understand Him. And this material world, although it is temporary, it appears to be fact on account of energy, being energy of God.

Madame Siaude: (French)

Yogeśvara: She says that God is known as antaryāmī, the witness in the heart. Does that mean that we can have a direct experience of God without going through the scriptures?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the practice of yoga.

Madame Siaude: (French) I guess if you have the idea of prapati, of surrender . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Madame Siaude: . . . this is a way to God directly.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is . . . that is the real process.

Madame Siaude: But it is not yoga. It is different from yoga?

Prabhupāda: No, it is bhakti-yoga.

Madame Siaude: Prapati is different.

Prabhupāda: Prapati is bhakti-yoga.

Madame Siaude: You take it in bhakti?

Prabhupāda: Bhakti, yes. Prapati means bhakti. Just like I can surrender unto you when I have got full faith and devotion unto you. Otherwise, I cannot. That is wanted. If we simply surrender to God, then everything is complete. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā, the prapati is described, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19), this word: "After many, many births of philosophical speculation or personal endeavor to understand what is God, when he's actually wise, he surrenders unto Me." And it is said next line, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19): "Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is everything. When he understands this, then his knowledge is perfect. But such kind of mahātmā, great soul, is very rare to be seen."

Madame Siaude: (French)

Jyotirmayī: So she said that in . . . it is also explained that those who are not intelligent enough to study, or who are out of caste, so they cannot . . . they don't have the right to study, then it is said that they can attain God directly by surrendering unto God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. It does not require education, knowledge or anything. If he agrees to surrender to the lotus feet of God, then his life is perfect. That is stated in the Vedic literature, ārādhita yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim (Nārada Pañcarātra): "If one has surrendered himself to the lotus feet of God and worshiped Him, there is no more need of austerity and penances." And nārādhita yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim: "If one has not learned how to surrender to God and worship Him, then all his austerities, knowledge, are useless." Antar-bahiḥ yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim, "If one can see God within and outside, then where is the necessity of austerity?" And nārādhita . . . nantar-bahiḥ tad yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim, "If one has not learned to see God within and without, then where is the value of his austerity and penances?" Therefore God realization is the only business of the human being.

French guests: (French)

Jyotirmayī: So they agree totally with what you said.

Pastor (2): (French)

Yogeśvara: (translating) He said, well, first you said that . . . first we must learn about God, and then we will know how to pray to God, but now you say that if one surrenders to God, one has no need to learn about Him first.

Prabhupāda: But unless one . . . we say: "Unless you have learned what is God." That means you have to learn God. Then religion . . . religion means . . .

Pastor (2): (French)

Prabhupāda: What does he say?

Yogeśvara: He says: "But God reveals Himself to us."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is fact. If you are actually devotee, then God will reveal. That is . . . that is stated in the Vedic language, ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Brs. 1.2.234): "You cannot understand the form, name, attributes, pastimes of God by these blunt senses." These senses, present ten senses, cannot realize. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ. Indriya means sense. Then how to realize? Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. When you begin service with your tongue, then gradually God reveals. So tongue means you can do two business with the tongue: one is talking and one is eating. So if you engage your tongue in glorifying God, and if you eat God's prasāda, then you realize God. Therefore these young boys and girls from Europe and America, they have been . . . they are being taught, "Use the tongue for Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and eat Kṛṣṇa prasāda."

And as practical result, although they are very young, still, they have realized God, Kṛṣṇa, far advanced than anyone else. They have forgotten all material things: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. They are simply devoted in the service of Kṛṣṇa. So because they have engaged their tongue in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, they have forgotten all kinds of intoxication, meat-eating. The American government spent millions of dollar to stop their LSD habit. They could not stop even one man. But as soon as they come to Kṛṣṇa conscious, they immediately give up.

French guests: (French)

Jyotirmayī: They say they are very glad for all of this.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. So let us join together and push on this movement, chanting the holy name of God. You don't . . . I don't say that you take Kṛṣṇa, the name of . . . if you have got any other name, you can chant.

Pastors: (French)

Yogeśvara: So he says, therefore, as you are glorifying God, we hope you will think of us just as when we glorify God, we will think of you.

Prabhupāda: Thank you.

Pastor (2): (French)

Jyotirmayī: He was very sad yesterday when there was some people, you know, making noises.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the difficulty. They are . . . gradually, the population of the world are becoming urchins.

Jyotirmayī: Becoming?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Urchins. Very degraded.

Jyotirmayī: (French)

Prabhupāda: That I was discussing from Bhāgavatam, how people will degrade in this age. And this is due to lack of God consciousness.

Pastor (1): (French)

Yogeśvara: He says your lecture yesterday evening was very objectionable to many of the young people, who made so much disruption. They found many of the things you were discussing . . .

Prabhupāda: Because the young people gradually degrading. They do not acknowledge authority.

Yogeśvara: That's the point.

Pastor (2): (French)

Yogeśvara: Yes. When they saw how much we were speaking authoritative, they rejected it. They reacted.

Prabhupāda: So that is their degradation, due to degradation. They cannot accept any authority. And knowledge cannot advance without authority. But one thing I may say that the disobedience to the authority has begun from their fathers.

Yogeśvara: From?

Prabhupāda: From their fathers. Yes. Because in the Bible it is said: "Thou shall not kill," and their fathers indulge in killing business. So naturally their generation has degraded.

Pastor (2): (French)

Bhagavān: What did he say?

Yogeśvara: He said whether there was much discussion after the meeting last night.

Bhagavān: Oh, yes. There was . . .

Yogeśvara: Yes, they stayed until midnight.

Bhagavān: There was . . . the total attendance yesterday was close to two thousand people. And at least one thousand people stayed until twelve o'clock.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Twelve o'clock.

Bhagavān: Oh, yes. The manager of the hall was pleading with us to ask them to leave. He wanted to go home.

Pastor (1): (French)

Yogeśvara: He says that's very good that so many stayed to find out more information, to ask, to discuss.

Prabhupāda: Yes, any reasonable man will find subject matter interesting. There is a statement of Caitanya-caritāmṛta, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-dayā karaha vicāra (CC Adi 8.15): "Just consider and then give your judgment after studying the mercy of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu." It is never recommended to take it blindly. Karaha vicāra: "Just judge with reason and argument." And vicāra karile citte pābe camatkāra: "If you consider it with logic and judgment, then you'll find it is sublime."

Bhagavān: So an interpretation of a scripture, whether it be Bible or Bhagavad-gītā, cannot simply be an opinion, but it must be based on logic and reason.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in the Bible it is said: "There was only word in the beginning." So in the beginning, there was a word. That means that word is not the word of this material creation. (break)

Yogeśvara: Just like these Guru Maharajis. They say that you can't chant the name Kṛṣṇa because it's simply a material sound. They say the name is material.

Prabhupāda: That's it. The rascal does not understand what is this sound. He does not see that there was word before creation.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Also in Revelation in the Bible it states that in the spiritual world there is no need for sun or moon . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . because the body of God is giving off light.

Prabhupāda: No, the residents also, they are bright.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, illuminating.

Prabhupāda: Just like in the sun planet, all the inhabitants, they are fiery body.

Pastor (2): (French)

Jyotirmayī: They said that they told me before they came that they could stay only one hour, so now they have to take . . .

Prabhupāda: Ācchā? One hour we have passed? (laughter) Thank you very much.

Pastor (1): Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Distribute this flower. (to incoming guest) Come on.

Yogeśvara: Bring the chair so that she can sit. (first batch of guests leave)

American man: I would like to ask you what you think of the Hebraic Kabbalaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

American man: I would like to ask you what you think of the Hebraic Kabbalaḥ.

Prabhupāda: I do not know. What is that?

Yogeśvara: He asked, "Do you have an opinion on the Hebrew scripture, the Kabbalaḥ?"

Prabhupāda: No, I have neither read it, I do not know it. I do not know.

Yogeśvara: Oh, Madame Devi doesn't have much time. Perhaps she had some . . .

Madame Devi: (French)

Pṛthu-putra: She'd like to know about the problem of death, what's happening at the time of death.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So as you prepare yourself . . . because . . . just like in dream we think what we have actually performed, similarly, the mental condition at the time of death will be prepared as we are doing in our usual life. (Pṛthu-putra translates throughout) (to man:) Do you understand English?

American man: I'm American.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice.

Madame Devi: (French)

Pṛthu-putra: She believes that the thoughts are more important than the acts.

Yogeśvara: Thoughts. She asks, she says: "Perhaps thoughts are more important than actions."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Thoughts are the subtle action.

Madame Devi: (French)

Pṛthu-putra: She says: "Compared to the problem of the Bayonne, what's happened in Bayonne, the thoughts are more important than the action, because the thoughts are some . . . of some . . ."

Bhagavān: "The thoughts begin the action."

Yogeśvara: "The thoughts begins the action, determine the actions."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we give thoughts beyond your present thoughts from the authoritative Vedic scripture.

Madame Devi: (French)

Pṛthu-putra: "Do you think that in the future is going to be all religious movements together?"

Yogeśvara: "Do you think that in the future all religions and all these spiritual groups will come together and form one group?"

Prabhupāda: There is no "all religion." There is only one religion. One who deviates, he creates another religion. Religion means there is God, and we should be obedient to God. This is religion.

Madame Devi: (French)

Pṛthu-putra: She says: "Therefore is not necessary to go by one's special path?"

Prabhupāda: No, there is no special path. There is only one path that, "God is there, God is great, and we are all subordinate to God." That's all. No, if you . . . they accept this?

American man: I think that each man finds his own way, and that some people, because of the blood they have and because of who they have been before, can go . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, do you accept this principle, that "God is great, and we are all subordinate to Him"?

American man: My principle is the light, that there is only the light. If some people wish to call it God, they can call it God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

American man: If they wish to call it Jesus Christ, they can call it . . .

Prabhupāda: No, we, we, we also say that. We are all life, and God is the supreme life. That's all.

American man: God, for me, is a word. It's a word which no one can understand, which no one can say what is God.

Prabhupāda: Simply you understand.

American man: I understand the light.

Prabhupāda: No, no, you understand. You say: "God is word." That means you understand God.

American man: No.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you say: "God is word"?

American man: I say God cannot be explained with words.

Prabhupāda: No, no, why do you say? If you do not know God, how do you say like that?

American man: Because I . . .

Prabhupāda: If you do not know the subject matter . . . you say that, "God is not knowable," then how can you speak of God?

American man: I do not speak of God.

Prabhupāda: No, you are speaking that, "God is word." You say: "God is word"?

American man: No, I say God is only a word, and that's why I cannot speak of God, because it's a word and it cannot explain.

Prabhupāda: But you have got this word. Why you speak all these contradictory things?

American man: No. I say that I cannot speak of God because it is a word . . .

Prabhupāda: That means you do not know what is God. First of all accept.

American man: It is light. I speak of the light.

Prabhupāda: Then, then you know God. You say either way, that you know . . . sometimes you say you do not know; sometimes you say you know.

American man: No, no, no.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: Sometimes you say you know the light. That means you know God. For you, God is light.

American man: If you wish to call it "God . . ." No, no, no, no. I say it once. I will say it once, and once only . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, now, you say that God is light.

American man: . . . so we'll understand.

Prabhupāda: Do you say, "God is light"?

American man: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then you know God. Then why do you say: "God cannot be known"?

American man: I say that "God" is a word.

Prabhupāda: You say "light" or "word." What is the . . . what is the definite . . .

American man: I believe in what I feel right here, and that is God for me.

Prabhupāda: That means you feel sometimes something else. That is God.

American man: I feel the light here.

Prabhupāda: Anywhere you feel, the first of all let us know . . .

American man: I feel the light here.

Prabhupāda: Yes, anywhere. Light is here also.

American man: And that's all there is.

Prabhupāda: That is . . . that is all right. Light is here also, not only . . .

American man: Light is here. Light is this table.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

American man: Light is this floor. Light is everything.

Prabhupāda: So that's all right. Then why do you say that you do not know God? You know God is light.

American man: Because for me, "God" is merely a word. How can you explain God with a word?

Yogeśvara: I think you've been defeated.

American man: No, no, I don't think I've been defeated.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

American man: And I'm not warring. I'm not making war with you. I simply want to understand . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, you . . . you fix up one thing. You say: "God is light." That word "light" is God? Or that . . .

American man: I do not say God is light.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you said that.

American man: I say there is only light. I say there is only light.

Prabhupāda: Only light?

American man: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is God.

American man: I do not speak of God, I speak of light.

Prabhupāda: Then you do not know God. You accept one position.

American man: I say there is light.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you do not know whether light is God.

American man: What is God? Explain to me what is God.

Prabhupāda: (aside) Talk with him. He'll simply waste my time.

American man: If you can explain to me what is God, I would appreciate it.

Prabhupāda: Just go and take him. You go and he'll explain to you, please.

American man: He cannot explain to me.

Prabhupāda: Then you go away. Please. What can I do?

American man: It's as you wish.

Prabhupāda: I cannot waste.

American man: If you cannot explain to me what is God . . . I speak of light, so . . .

Prabhupāda: But you know everything. What can I explain? You know everything.

American man: I just speak of light. I don't say I know everything, but I speak of light, that's all. That's all I said.

Dhanañjaya: You're wasting our spiritual master's time. What is the point in coming here if you're just going to talk nonsense? Please come.

American man: Oh, I'll come. (leaves)

Bhagavān: Why was he brought in in the first place? Anyway, we can continue, but . . .

Madame Devi: (French)

Yogeśvara: "Is there some . . . any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?"

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I explained, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Those who are in sattva-guṇa, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guṇa, they have got difficulty. And those who are in tamo-guṇa, they cannot.

Madame Devi: (French)

Pṛthu-putra: She says that . . .

Yogeśvara: Degree of covering. "Is this degree of covering, whether they are in goodness, in passion or in ignorance, is that a question of their physical body? Is it a question of their hormones or chemical state? Is it a chemical state that some people are more covered than others by the modes of nature?"

Prabhupāda: Covered means with some dirty things. That's all.

Yogeśvara: By past karma.

Prabhupāda: Just like the sun is covered with the cloud. That list is like that.

Madame Devi: (French)

Pṛthu-putra: She asks if by repeating the mantra, the name of God, it has more . . .

Prabhupāda: You become purified. Purified.

Yogeśvara: You give the example all the time of the more you polish the mirror, the more the light can shine.

Madame Devi: (French)

Pṛthu-putra: She says: "Therefore we have to repeat a lot of times the name of God a day."

Yogeśvara: Per day. Every day.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes.

Madame Devi: (French)

Pṛthu-putra: She is very happy to meet you and she thanks you.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tell her also that at the time of death one who fixes the mind on the name of God will go back to God.

Madame Devi: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Bhagavān: So it's time for Śrīla Prabhupāda's massage. (end)