760706 - Conversation C - Washington D.C.

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760706R3-WASHINGTON DC - July 06, 1976 - 74:02 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . and it is a fact, he did not fix it. I wanted both of you to take various detailed photographs of that Capitol.

Yadubara: The Capitol Building. For what purpose, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: We shall have picture, planetarium in Māyāpur. (aside) That's better. (break) . . . spiritual world, material world, and so on, so on. Planetary . . . succession of the planetary systems, everything. A building like that.

Yadubara: That would be a separate building from the temple?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are acquiring 350 acres of land for constructing a small township . . .

Yadubara: I think we . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . to attract people from all the world to see the planetarium.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is this near the temple?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Planetarium name, actually it will be temple. But all round, things will be . . . anyway.

Yadubara: I know before the idea was to have it inside the main temple.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Yadubara: As you walked up the outside of the, or the inside of the main temple, inside that dome, they would have it on the walls. But that would . . . that original plan was to have it inside the main temple.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You take all details, inside, outside. That will be nice.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Can you take inside? Is it allowed?

Yadubara: Yes, I think so.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (japa) And you prove that sun planet is first. It is stated in the Bhāgavatam.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I was going to inquire about that.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The order, Sunday, Monday, whether it has to do anything with the distance.

Prabhupāda: Distance, whatever it may be. But the sun is first, then moon, then Mars, then Jupiter, then like that. One after another. Otherwise, why Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, like that?

Yadubara: That means the distance, then, from the earth?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yadubara: Sun is first.

Prabhupāda: According to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the moon is situated 1,600,000 miles away up to the sun. Upper. So according to their calculation, 93,000,000 miles, sun is situated from the earth. And if the moon is plus 1,600,000 then it becomes 15,000,000 miles. So 15,000,000 miles it takes about . . .

Hari-śauri: Ninety-five million.

Prabhupāda: Ah?

Hari-śauri: Ninety-five million.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That. Ninety five millions. It takes at least seven . . .

Hari-śauri: Seven months.

Prabhupāda: Seven months, to the speed they are going, 18,000 miles per hour. So how they have gone in four days?

Yadubara: According to . . .

Prabhupāda: They have brought some sand. Such a brilliant planet which is illuminating the whole universe and they brought sand. All bluff.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They've studied this very carefully.

Prabhupāda: All bluff.

Yadubara: According to the Bhāgavatam, the sun is also 93,000,000 miles away from the earth?

Prabhupāda: That is we shall see later on. It is about. The whole diameter is 4 billions. And sun is situated almost in the middle. It is my firm conviction that they did not go to the moon. Neither they'll be able to go to the Mars as they have planned it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But their scientists would be mad . . .

Prabhupāda: They are mad already, they're talking all nonsense. Already they're mad.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're studying all the rocks from the moon.

Prabhupāda: Rascals. What they will get? They studied the rock. And they have found one crack in the whole moon planet, and there's no living being?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually the rocks are being distributed all over the world.

Prabhupāda: Ah?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: For analysis. Little portion of the rock that they have brought from different stars, they have distributed all over the world. And the report is coming that a portion of the elements . . . such and such . . . so from there they calculate how old the moon is. It's about the same age as the earth, about 4.5 million years.

Prabhupāda: They say similar rocks are available here.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then why they bother about bringing rock from there?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: To investigate more.

Prabhupāda: What is investigation? Simply bluff.

Hari-śauri: Similar rocks are available here, because the same rock was taken from here.

Prabhupāda: If the rock is the same, so why not living beings there?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They claim there is no atmosphere.

Prabhupāda: No, if the atmosphere is different, the rock must be different. The sun must be different. The atmosphere is different, but the rock sand is the same? They have to believe that? Everything should be different.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some of the rocks can be similar.

Prabhupāda: So similar, then atmosphere cannot be dissimilar. It is common sense. And this is also bogus, that such a brilliant illuminating planet, it is full of rocks and sand.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The moon?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is so brilliant that it is illuminating the whole universe.

Devotee: They say the moon is a reflection.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Why reflection not come in our Sahara desert? Why you don't see such reflection in the Sahara desert so that the whole world may be illuminated?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is also going to be very critical.

Prabhupāda: Which one?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This moon is farther away than the sun. That brings a whole new concept that poses some problem.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In speaking (at) colleges and universities. The other day when you spoke there, we were not speaking about astronomy, you were speaking of the origin of life, and these people, outsiders, they already had the concept to raise up that question. So without any connection they brought up. So the question was, "Whatever you present is very nice, fine, but what about the moon? Do you believe that the moon is farther away than the sun?"

Prabhupāda: But they have already . . .?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, they already studied, they are ready to ask those things, and they say: "Just give me an answer, yes or no."

Prabhupāda: They asked you? They asked you?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So what did you answer?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We said yes, but our explanation was much . . . (indistinct) . . . in the sense that we said you have to study this more carefully, but we tried to remark the concept that now we are conditioned to believe certain things.

Prabhupāda: Now, how they heard that we are believing in this way?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: From Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: From Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And sometimes devotees go around the colleges and sometimes they say: "What you are doing is all wrong, the moon is far away." So I think this is spread all over.

Prabhupāda: But that is a fact.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we had one explanation saying that now, the way we percept knowledge, though we understand things, there is also a conditioning behind it. So actually this is a fact, but in Mathematics, if we change the axiom, then we have a whole new understanding, it's almost completely upside down, but still we can interpret the result. It is just like a simple jumble, while Niels Bohr, studying the structure of the atom. Now he had a mathematical equation to fit the phenomena of this atom, and actually you can perfectly describe this phenomena by this equation, but, now, at morning times, this quantum mechanics, it turns out whatever he did was completely wrong, but it can be described completely, perfectly well as his model, as is our present understanding. But now his theories . . . (indistinct) . . . he could explain things on his own, but still it's completely wrong. So similarly . . .

Prabhupāda: They are right. They may present the wrong thing, but still they are right.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is their proposition?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is possible, but that's why we're claiming that. They agree that because not only there is several facts in science, that one should be . . . (indistinct) . . . this is true, then suddenly by some new discoveries came out all wrong.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we are discussing about our limitations of our so-called knowledge-finding technique. So we said, "One has to be a little open-minded and discuss these things . . ."

Prabhupāda: Tomader deshe amader, desi astrologer ache bhalo keu? (In our country, is there any desi Astrologer who is good?)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Amar hoy mone pare . . . amar mone pore ache kichu. (What I remember . . . what I remember is there are some.)

Prabhupāda: Hya. Tader ke sob jijnes karo . . . (indistinct) . . . (Yes. Ask them what is their . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . .)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And in this connection we actually wanted to also study Bhaktisiddhānta Prabhupāda's . . .

Prabhupāda: Sūrya-siddhānta.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But where is that book?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Pradyumna told me that it's available in Bengali, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: If it is available, get it . . . (indistinct) . . . he was one of the authorities about sun movements.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I heard that it will be very . . .

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . he got this Sūrya-siddhānta, Siddhānta Sarasvatī. He was very expert astrologer.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we were thinking that there must be some more information there.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . there are (in) Calcutta many . . . some of them still, living or dead I do not know. But in India, in Benares you'll find many astrologers. You said in your book that the sun is the nearest planet?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I didn't say that. We actually took the concept of the . . . I wasn't talking much there, saying that there is one star, the sun is the nearest star.

Prabhupāda: Nearest star.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So that means near star, nearest, which relationship, with the earth?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: With the other stars.

Prabhupāda: Ah?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: With the other stars.

Prabhupāda: Other stars? Nearest means?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: To the earth.

Prabhupāda: To the earth. So they are . . . we are speaking the same thing. The sun is the nearest, then moon.

Hari-śauri: But they don't care if the moon is a star.

Prabhupāda: No, moon star is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁ śaśī. It is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā. Moon is one of the stars, but brilliant star.

Yadubara: How many brilliant stars are there in this Universe?

Prabhupāda: Many. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam (BS 5.40). Aśeṣa. We cannot count.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The description is also that there is only one star in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The description is that there is only one star in this universe. One star.

Prabhupāda: One star?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, only one star.

Devotee: One sun.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I'm sorry, one sun.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: One sun in this universe.

Prabhupāda: This is one universe.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So actually what they call solar system, science doesn't call it one universe. The concept of universe is very vast.

Prabhupāda: That is not vast. Our concept . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, our conception is solar system, actually. The solar system is one universe.

Prabhupāda: Solar? There is no solar system. The ninth, I mean planets.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Solar system, what they mean, the science, the sun, and these planets that we know, consists of, comprises our Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam universe, concept of the universe.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the universe is a big affair, the sun is one of the important planets. Not only the sun, moon, Mars, Jupiter, everyone.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually as astronomy and . . . (indistinct) . . . are especially astronomy is one of the most unscientific branch of study, knowledge is concerned. It's very, very little known. The way that . . . the techniques that they use, are very difficult to rely on.

Prabhupāda: So their Astronomical calculation, the sun is fixed up, that is also wrong. The sun is not fixed up.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, Your Divine Grace, you wrote me a letter saying about the universe is just like an inverted tree.

Prabhupāda: Yes, ūrdhva-mūlam adhah-śākham (BG 15.1), Bhagavad-gītā.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And the tree, and the leaves, and the fruits and flowers are the planets.

Prabhupāda: Ūrdhva-mūlam, Gītā says, ūrdhva-mūlam adhah-śākham. The pole-star in the . . . and we see at night everything is moving. As a bunch it is moving.

Hari-śauri: Does that means all the planets are fixed in relationship to each other as well?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Just like a tree. Tree is fixed up, as a whole tree is moving.

Hari-śauri: Because we see practically that the moon also moves, across the sky. Just like the sun does. So the sun has an orbit?

Prabhupāda: Sun is also . . . yes.

Hari-śauri: And the moon has an orbit also?

Prabhupāda: In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ. Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ. Unlimited temperature. Everything is there.

Hari-śauri: Does the moon have an orbit also then?

Prabhupāda: Yes, every . . . (indistinct) . . . it is described as a chariot moving. Something, challenge must be given.

Hari-śauri: I think that when we try to explain to them that the sun is drawn by a chariot, then . . . (laughs)

Prabhupāda: The chariot . . . sun is God. He's one of the gods.

Hari-śauri: Hmm.

Yadubara: Won't they just take this . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . He's a person, sun-god. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1), a person. That is his planet. He is the predominating Deity. And similarly moon. And the kṣatriyas, they are coming from these two planets. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, vivasvān manave prāha manur ikṣvākave . . . Ikṣvāku is the sūrya-vaṁśa, the kṣatriya family coming from the sun.

Yadubara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we're taking this from the Bhāgavatam. Won't they just think that this is myth?

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . is myth? Who believes you? If you don't believe me, I don't believe you. Finished.

Yadubara: So we should present our side.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our business. If you don't believe me I don't believe you. Finished business. You have got your authority, I've got my authority. Why shall I . . .?

Hari-śauri: Actually we have authority and they have no authority.

Prabhupāda: What is your age? You are all scientists within 200 years. And our Bhāgavata is written 5,000 years ago. Why shall I accept yours?

Yadubara: So no matter what they say we should present it at least.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have become all scientists, and everything within 200 years. What is the age of your European, Western civilization? It cannot go more than 3,000 years? Our Bhāgavata is written 5,000 years ago. And before that, Śukadeva Gosvāmī says: "I have heard like this." That's all. Millions and millions (of years ago) . . .

Devotee (1): You were saying that everything they say is wrong, and that is our position. We take that position, that everything they say is wrong.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because they are imperfect, they are speculating.

Devotee (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is the value of your speculation? If you are on the wrong platform, then what is the value of your speculation? You have got imperfect senses, you cheat, with the microscope or binocular, but it is manufactured by you. How it is perfect?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is one of our reasonings, that the senses . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are born imperfect, and you are manufacturing some measuring . . . so that is also imperfect. And you are depending by seeing through the binocular. How it is perfect?

Devotee (1): They've convinced us that these machines are accurate.

Prabhupāda: How it is accurate? It is manufactured by you. You are a fool.

Devotee (1): But some things they say, like the rays . . .

Prabhupāda: They say, they may say, but first of all, what is the position of the conditioned soul? Four defects. You must commit mistakes, you must be illusioned, his senses are imperfect, and he's a cheater. These are the four defects of conditioned souls. So how the conditioned soul can give perfect knowledge?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is our conclusion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The position of conditioned soul is that he must commit mistake, and he's illusioned, and his senses are imperfect, and he wants to cheat. Everyone speaks something. You know that he has no perfect knowledge in the subject matter, still he wants to speak something. That means he wants to cheat. This is going on. And then after some years somebody says: "No, it was not correct." That means he cheated. The former scientists or philosophers cheated.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Why ask?

Prabhupāda: Yes. He has no perfect knowledge and he proposed something and now it is incorrect. And the man who is correcting, he's also a cheater. This is going on, this is their paramparā system. One cheater, another cheater, another cheater. So why shall I believe the cheaters?

Devotee (1): They've convinced us by their machines.

Prabhupāda: That machine means, their machine. Again you are bringing the same argument. What is value of machine? The machine is made by a cheater. Imperfect senses, how it is perfect?

Devotee (1): But some machines work, though, like the radio, the TV . . .

Prabhupāda: Work to some extent, that much credit you can take.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, to some extent that is also you're saying . . .

Prabhupāda: To some extent is, everyone accepts.

Hari-śauri: Just amplifies the cheating.

Prabhupāda: Yes. To some extent they are correct, that's all. So far they say: "I can see 2 feet or 10 feet." That's all. So how can I say I can see the whole sky? That is cheating.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually that is also the fundamental mistake.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In our attempt to gain knowledge, that we try to expand our own limited experience to something which is beyond my . . .

Prabhupāda: Beyond my . . .

Yadubara: Doctor Frog.

Prabhupāda: Doctor Frog, yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So sometimes . . .

Prabhupāda: Imagining. "It may be like this. It may be like that." That is not knowledge. Doctor Frog is thinking of Atlantic ocean. He is within three feet of water. And how he can think of Atlantic Ocean? He may think, "It may be four feet, or five feet, or ten feet," and as soon as says 20 feet, he bursts. He's finished. Now you are finished.

Devotee (2): But they are so many . . . (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that's a good point.

Devotee (2): But they cheated when they said they went to the moon.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they're cheaters, those who have got imperfect senses, they're all cheaters. If they say something, "Definitely this is like this," that is cheating.

Devotee (2): But how can so many cheat?

Prabhupāda: So many cheat?

Devotee (2): Together. Together they all cheat, they all say they went to the moon. One thousand scientists, all together in one room? They all say: "We agree, this, they went to the moon, here's the . . ."

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that if we can prove that the moon is beyond sun, then all these cheaters will be . . . (indistinct) . . . by one stroke.

Devotee (2): It's a great cheating effort, then. Must be a very great effort that they cheated everybody like this. Because so many scientists were fooled.

Prabhupāda: Scientists . . .

Devotee (2): They . . .

Prabhupāda: So many are . . . because they're speculating. No valid knowledge.

Viśākhā: It seems that since they have imperfect senses, they're unable to perceive . . .

Prabhupāda: It is impossible to say anything scientifically. So-called scientifically.

Viśākhā: So they cannot perceive that there is somebody with perfect senses.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Viśākhā: They deny that there is someone with perfect senses.

Prabhupāda: So they may, but we have got. Our knowledge is paramparā. That Kṛṣṇa says, whatever He says is all right. Kṛṣṇa is not common man, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). He's not man at all He's Supreme Personality of Godhead. Abhijñaḥ. Experience in everything.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We agree that we have more limited senses . . .

Prabhupāda: He's a scientist, he knows.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Scientists also, when we talk together . . .

Prabhupāda: They know that they're talking nonsense, but they still want to cheat, to get their salary, that's all. This is the position.

Hari-śauri: That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: Because they know, we can cheat these rascals, government. They are all rascals, we can simply talk in some bombastic words (speaks gibberish). They'll believe it. This is going on. All imperfect knowledge.

Hari-śauri: If they don't produce some new theory, or some new discovery . . .

Prabhupāda: That means they prove their own foolishness. Why do you produce new theory? If there is perfect knowledge? That proves their foolishness.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's also called intellectual exercise.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to . . .

Hari-śauri: Mental speculation.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Manorathena. Asati dhāvato bahiḥ. Mental speculation.

Yadubara: It's all based on that. Because if you don't speculate mentally, you don't get a degree.

Prabhupāda: That's another thing. A fool is accepted by another fool. That is another thing. They're getting Nobel Prize and so on and so on. That is different thing. Fool's paradise. All of them are fools. And they have created their own paradise. Do you know that story? That one was drinking, so his friend said: "Oh, you are drinking, you'll go to hell." "No, why? My father drinks." "Well, he'll also go to hell." "Oh, by brother drinks." "So he'll also go to hell." "My brother . . ." In this way, the whole list was . . . (indistinct) . . . then he said, everyone will go to hell. Then where is hell? It is paradise! If father is going, then mother is going, then I am going, then brother is going, then where is hell?" It is like that. They're all fools, then where is fool? Everyone is intelligent. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . there's no question of fool. If everyone, all of us are fool, then where is the question of intelligent? "Hey, we are intelligent." . . . (indistinct) . . . this is their conclusion. We can give credit to something, just like I can see up to this wall. But if I say, "Now I am seeing beyond this world, everything, the forest and everything, I know everything." That is going on. Cheating.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's . . . goes a little too far.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Beyond one's limit.

Prabhupāda: Go, you have got . . . you have seen . . . go to all the planets. Where can you go? Why you make attempt for sending . . . (indistinct) . . . at night we see millions of planet. Go there. This is material, there is no question of spiritual world. Go there. If you've got any machine. Why you attempt? Go, as you go from here to London, go there. We can see there is . . . why there is attempt? That means your instrument is also insufficient. And you are very proud of your having instrument. Where is that instrument, go with that instrument. Imperfect. Everything is imperfect.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Two problems in man's history is this: one is this astronomical problem and the second is the origin of life.

Prabhupāda: Just see. And we have to . . . touching these three worlds.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So my feeling is that in about fifty years something is going to be settled.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) It's already settled. They should accept the . . . (indistinct) . . . it's already settled.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Especially about this origin of life business.

Prabhupāda: That is also settled. Everything is settled. But these rascals must admit. That's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's settled in the sense that even the scientist will come around that, "Oh, yes, what we taught was wrong."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we want. They have become unnecessary authorities and misleading people. That we want to expose.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in a sense it is good that they do research.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We are giving them knowledge.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: If they are after knowledge, they should accept.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is one, some sort of a mental satisfaction. When we work something we thought that by doing this I'll be able to come to a conclusion. But by the same research, by the same result, I found that what I thought was wrong, so from that, that satisfaction is there, so that must be true. Something like that.

Prabhupāda: Here is one, that Sukla, he is also favorable.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, he's a very nice man. I never saw any Indian like that.

Devotee (2): He's favorable, but he won't come to the temple.

Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. But he has got sympathy.

Devotee (2): Yes, he's very nice, sympathetic. But he didn't come to help us at all. And we approached him for life member, he said he would, but then he never did.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Slow . . . he'll come around.

Prabhupāda: The another medical man, he's also working?

Devotee (2): Medical man, he's very favorable. He comes every day to the temple.

Prabhupāda: So he's a devotee.

Devotee (2): He's moving in. He's going to take up a house here. He's very convinced.

Prabhupāda: He wants to give us some land?

Devotee (2): Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Fifty acres.

Devotee (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: In India we have been offered so many land. But we have no men . . . (indistinct)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I also got a letter from Manipur, that Life Member, Kulavida Singh, he was concerned that the young people are now giving up the religious thought, so he wanted to establish some sort of school . . .

Prabhupāda: That . . . catastrophe . . . is made by Vivekananda, yato mata tato patha, very bad.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. So as soon as . . . they wanted to start an ISKCON branch, and he was a . . .

Prabhupāda: I think it will not be difficult. Manipur is . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It will be very easy, because . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . Vaiṣṇava. So if they understand, that will be very nice.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: All the, even the government participates so they wrote me a letter saying that they can give us nice land, plot, and . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Now that Govindajī's temple?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Govindajī's temple is taken over by the government, so I talked to, I wrote a letter . . .

Prabhupāda: Government, they cannot manage.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are not managing properly.

Prabhupāda: They cannot. As soon as anything goes to state especially in India, goes to the government track, it is spoiled. Government means all thieves and rogues. How they'll manage? They'll simply swallow whatever they get. Government means . . . they cannot manage, they are not devotees. It should be in the hands of the devotees. So . . . (indistinct) . . . the paid man, they want some money, that's all. How they can manage temple? It is impossible.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It becomes a political problem.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It becomes involved in politics. So that . . . nothing to do with the worship.

Prabhupāda: The government should give to the hands of the devotee, we are recognized devotees, ISKCON. If they want, really management. We are managing, so many centers, on account of devotees. It is not possible to manage all these things by paid men. It is not possible.

Devotee (2): No.

Prabhupāda: They'll never . . . they'll not . . . this movement can be pushed on vigorously so long we are devotees, otherwise it will be finished. It cannot be conducted by any outsiders. No. Only the devotees. That is the secret.

Devotee (2): You cannot pay a devotee.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee (2): You cannot buy a devotee.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible.

Devotee (2): You can buy someone to sweep the floor, but you cannot buy a preacher.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. So so long we remain devotees, our movement will go, without any check.

Devotee (2): Devotees should take over the world.

Prabhupāda: Yeah, that is . . . that is good for the world.

Devotee (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: If devotees take up the whole world for management, then everyone will be happy. It is no doubt it. Kṛṣṇa wants that. He wanted the Pāṇḍavas should be in charge of the government. Therefore He took part in the fighting. "Yes, you should be the . . . all the Kauravas should be killed, and Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira installed." That is the dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). He wants everything goes very smoothly and people become God conscious. So their life be successful. That is Kṛṣṇa's plan. That, "These rascal misleading and therefore . . . they got . . . the human life and it is spoiled." Therefore I was talking about the "What is the meaning of the independence . . . (indistinct) . . .?" The life is spoiled. And they will spoil their life and become next life a dog, and this big, big building, with stair, that's all. What the big buildings will do benefit to these people who is going to be a dog next life? Taking as a theory, that those who have constructed this big, big building and next life they're going to be a dog.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they don't know that next life they're going to be a dog.

Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. They do not know it. Therefore māyā. It is same thing . . . (indistinct) . . . the life is meant for spiritual realization. They are not . . . (indistinct) . . . chance. They're going to become dog, and they think that, "Now we have got this big building, that is success."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That awakening of their understanding is necessary.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Otherwise, if they know that it's going to be like that then they won't do that.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they dismiss, "No, we don't believe in the next life." And they're so degraded even for argument's sake, "What is the wrong if I become dog?" They say, university students.

Devotee (2): They say that, yes.

Prabhupāda: "What is the wrong if I become a dog?" The same thing. Hell. Everyone is going to hell. So what is wrong? The same philosophy, if father is going, mother is going, brother is going, I am going, then where is hell?" That's all. We shall go there all together.

Devotee (2): Will this movement take over the world, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: At least you keep one idea. There is possibility.

Devotee (2): I think it will be very big.

Prabhupāda: That is possible. If we become serious and sincere, then it will go on, undoubtedly.

Devotee (2): See how big it grew just in ten years. Today is our anniversary.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): Our ten year anniversary today. So in ten years we have gotten so big, by geometric progression in 20 years how big will we be? Thousands and thousands of people, chanting and dancing.

Prabhupāda: And there is chance. Simply by chanting you can attract so many people.

Devotee (2): Yes, I think so. They're coming already. You chanted and so many people came.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Already in the, your English vocabulary, in America, actually they use many Sanskrit vocabularies now.

Prabhupāda: What is that? (laughs)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they believe that . . . (indistinct) . . . is the chairman of religion at Emery University, he told me that in about thirty years or so this, our movement . . .

Prabhupāda: They're giving back toward meaning.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: You can learn so many . . . sanskrit . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. Our students to pick up some Sanskrit words. Ātmā, jīva, like that. He was telling me that in about thirty or forty years our ISKCON, our movement will have a great impact in the social life there.

Prabhupāda: We are giving all, all round enlightenment. Bhagavad-gītā is full of information from all standpoint. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). We are now in such a downtrodden position, the whole human . . . he must accept. There is . . . the civilization is doomed.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: What do they explain about so many varieties of life? How do they come?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They call by mutation. It's called mutation.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mutation is . . . they say DNA molecule is the . . . called master molecule. But somehow during the course of . . .

Prabhupāda: Somehow.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Somehow. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Then they're finished. As soon as they "Somehow," it is not science. It is rascaldom. Then it is useless. "Somehow," "Maybe," "Perhaps." . . . (indistinct)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Somehow there is a mistake in the . . . (laughs)

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Everything is mistake.

Hari-śauri: Who is making the mistake?

Prabhupāda: We have to hear this thing: "Somehow they have made a mistake."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually it is very controversial. This . . . I read an article from the university of Berkeley, Berkeley and some other western campuses, saying that now the theory of this mutation by which the different species are formed is very controversial at this time. Because of the knowledge in our molecular biology, now what they have thought that this mutation is the cause of this variegatedness is a misnomer, being complete mistaken.

Prabhupāda: All mistaken. Where is the difference, then how do you experiment in the biological class by dissecting animal body? What is the difference in the composition of social construction, I er, bodily construction. You have to suffer. That's why I have said, there must be . . . (indistinct) . . . the same principle is there. Otherwise how the mosquito fly like this and . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They can make a mosquito but they . . .

Prabhupāda: No, they cannot make mosquito. They can make 747.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They can make a sample like mosquito.

Prabhupāda: No . . . they cannot, they cannot. That is my challenge. That first of all you bring life from the egg. You prepare a egg composition, and put it in the incubator and let some living entity come out. So can they do it? So why they will speak all nonsense?

Yadubara: They admit they can't do it.

Prabhupāda: Then they are rascal. What they cannot do, they're speaking lots of and getting Nobel prize.

Yadubara: They say how in the future they can.

Prabhupāda: How cheating.

Devotee (2): You said the chicken can do it.

Prabhupāda: Yeah.

Devotee (2): But they cannot.

Prabhupāda: No.

Devotee (2): Therefore a chicken, he is greater than you.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Chicken can do. What do you think?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. The very best way to . . . I want to use that as an example next time when we preach.

Prabhupāda: But a chicken is better than you. Don't talk nonsense. (laughter) Chicken is already doing in his way. You'll see he's laying down, chemical egg, and fermenting, and within week come. So he's better than you.

Yadubara: They'll say that we can also do that, we can also produce child.

Prabhupāda: Hm? You can, but you, rascal, you've never done it, simply speak.

Yadubara: No, I mean, they can produce children also by sex life.

Prabhupāda: But that is not your laboratory children. That is God's children. That is another thing. That is not your laboratory children. You want to produce children in laboratory? Then do that. That is our challenge.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But this, one of our arguments now, we argue that these molecules that . . . (indistinct) . . . for example DNA, even if they make it, still it just . . . it means it's a molecule. It is not going to function normally, as we find in a living cell, in a living body. So this has nothing to do with the life processes. The molecules they make, they may do so many reactions, but still there is a fundamental difference in the living body and this simple, that . . . to determine that it's never possible to create life in the test tube. They have timetables, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in about fifty years, that's about the turn of the century, that about 2001 we are going to make such and such bodies and . . .

Prabhupāda: All imagination.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So many strange things. They even said it that this, we have these five fingers, they said this isn't enough, so we must make six, so the six . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, in this way they're cheating.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Our brain is a little too small, so we want to do it a little bigger, so that we can think more and utilize more ideas.

Prabhupāda: Where is brain? There is no question. That story, that potter?

Hari-śauri: Oh, the one that was dreaming?

Prabhupāda: Yeah. You know the potter's story?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.

Hari-śauri: There was a potter and he had one or two pots, and he started to think, he was dreaming, "Oh, now I've got one or two pots. When I sell these pots then I'll make so much money. Then I'll make some more pots, then I'll make more money, like this. Then when I got some, enough money I'll get a wife, and I'll have a family, like this, and I'll have a nice house." In this way he was carried away with his dreaming and he was thinking, "If my wife doesn't do what I say, I'll kick her like this." And he kicked out, smashed all his pots. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: All the two, three pots he had were broken. Then he "Ohhh."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is called to make castles in the air?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually it is like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (chuckles)

Viśākhā: We want to try make a film to prove this point that life comes from life.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We can do that with film?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why not?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We can show it to colleges.

Yadubara: We wanted to work with Svarūpa Dāmodara and the other scientists . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Yadubara: . . . in collaboration.

Prabhupāda: Do it, do it.

Yadubara: Because their book, subject matter of the book is directly along those lines.

Prabhupāda: They say from chemicals, but if you prove that chemicals also come from life . . .

Devotee: Yeah.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They got some experiments that we want to do, on purely scientific level . . .

Prabhupāda: You can do it, it is a fact. You can do it, you'll be successful.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, there are some experiments that we can do. They have been doing some experiments last three or four months to supplement . . .

Prabhupāda: So you say, in the history these are two problems . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh yeah, these are the greatest . . .

Prabhupāda: So we have trust these two points.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Once these two points are solved, then the knowledge will be very clear.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everything will be very harmonious and come to a common conclusion. But so long as . . .

Prabhupāda: We are giving the solution, let them take it. This is our greatest contribution.

Viśākhā: The problem is they believe what they see.

Prabhupāda: Believe or not believe, we shall have to give the people by books, by knowledge, by film.

Hari-śauri: But if somehow or other that sun-moon thing can be proved, then they'll all be finished, completely.

Prabhupāda: It will not be finished because some rascals, fools will remain to support it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's always like that, just like in Mahābhārata . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: there was two, demons and the . . .

Prabhupāda: So this is his world of duality. You cannot have all support on your side. It isn't . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, we always expect opposition.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We must be ready for . . .

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . just like we're opposing their theory. They are not absolute.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Science, science also, Prabhupāda, changing the subject level, science also comes to the conclusion that the stars and this universe have . . . they die out and then they produce new ones, just like life cycle of the living body. So . . .

Prabhupāda: Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in fact, one of the remarks of a scientist, Nobel laureate actually, in Harvard, Mādhava told me he was in American Association for the Advancement of Science. This professor is a professor in biology in Harvard, Boston. His answer was that, "In order to have man in this planet, the stars have to die." That means we come from the stars. The particles, from the stars, then the main involved from those molecules, that star, that come from the stars.

Prabhupāda: You do something. I can give you the idea. But it is fact. What ideas I am giving, that's a fact. Now it is up to you to put it (into) so-called scientifics. He'll . . . in future millions of years after it will create one living entity in the laboratory, so he's taking all the credit, and God is creating millions and millions already, He has no credit. You'll see their intelligence. What the people will gain even if you manufacture one life in the laboratory? So what is the gain? Why you are spending so much money?

Yadubara: They want to become God.

Prabhupāda: God becoming is far away. First of all, make some living entity. But even if you do it, then what is your credit? Why you want to take so much great credit?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's called false prestige.

Prabhupāda: Just see, how nonsense they are, misleading people, making them atheist, Godless. Great dangerous, the so-called scientists.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that mentality has to be changed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if even two, three, points we can prove that they're all rascals, then they will change. Simply cheating people and take high salary. This is common sense. Suppose in the laboratory you make one living being. So what is credit to them? The living entities are coming, many millions . . .

Devotee: (2): You gave the story about the dog . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): . . . barking?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): And the man he is imitating the dog barking . . .

Prabhupāda: And he'll sell ticket. That, "I shall bark like the dog." And people will come, "Oh, let us see." This is going on. What is the credit to bark like a dog? There are so many dogs barking, but people are so fool they'll go and purchase the ticket, "How this man barks like a dog." This is cheating. That is the qualification of conditioned soul, he can very scientifically cheat. This is cheating, "I can bark like dog."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Aren't we going a little too far. The scientist says-personally I also feel that they are not all that bad . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. They're badly trained up. Not all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are many good things that they have done.

Prabhupāda: That we already admitted. That I can see ten feet, let me credit, take credit for that. But why shall I say: "I can see the whole universe." What is this nonsense? Speak the truth. "Now we have manufactured machine, and this, I have calculation that . . ." All talking nonsense. I say it is not possible for you to see beyond ten feet. Why you are claiming that you can see the whole sky? That is our protest. You can see ten feet, take that credit, that much. If somebody manufactures the electric lamp, all right. Take this. But if he says: "I can manufacture the sun." Then he is to be beaten with shoes. Talking nonsense. You take this credit, that you have manufactured light in electric bulb, that's all right. But why you claim that, "I can manufacture the sun"? That is their claim, defying God. Because we are explaining God consciousness, therefore we have protest. Otherwise let them move, all nonsense . . . (indistinct) . . . but we cannot tolerate when they challenge God. We must . . . (indistinct)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This year also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, just like their 200 year anniversary, similarly in American Chemical Society this is 100th year celebration. There was a big meeting in New York just few months ago, international meeting, celebrating the 100th year of the American Chemical Society. So I was planning to go there but I didn't go. But they have a moving model of what science has achieved in the last 200 years. And also predictions for what will happen in the future. And one of the Nobel laureates-Fowling is his name, from California—he predicted that, specifically in the chemical community, people take him as some sort of, their leader, so whatever he says, they believe that it's going to happen. So he believes that in the next coming 100 years there will be more knowledge on this life matter, and then people will be happier.

Prabhupāda: That is mis . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Selling plastic world.

Prabhupāda: Plastic world?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mostly synthetic, in a synthetic . . .

Prabhupāda: Manufacture.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Plastic materials will be predominant, and we will have more frontiers of knowledge especially in the biology, molecular biology. So they are also pessimist that in such and such years we're going to make short of these coal deposits and all these energy supplies, all these different . . .

Prabhupāda: That will be finished?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . will work?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But he is not, he's optimistic. He said they will find new sources on the nuclear energy, solar energy and all these predictions. But the point there is that these people, they believe in what he says, because he has Nobel laureate . . . (indistinct) . . . and he's respected by . . . he's very old about seventy . . .

Prabhupāda: So what he is proposing? It's nothing new.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's giving some thought, to those people who are worried, "Don't worry about life, it's going to be all nice." And . . .

Prabhupāda: No, we are not worried, and even if we, one is worried, he'll be finished by that time. So all worries will be gone. Moreover, after death there will be no worries.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: Prove that everything is being done by God, that we want. Half past five?

Hari-śauri: Almost twenty-five to. Twenty-seven minutes to . . .

Prabhupāda: Twenty-seven minutes? No, no. It is thirty minutes.

Hari-śauri: Twenty-seven minutes to six.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Minutes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is made by science. This watch is a product of science.

Prabhupāda: Science means craftsman, that's all. (laughter) Mistri. We say mistri. (laughter) You know, in our Indian language? Mistri?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mystery.

Prabhupāda: Mistri.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is that?

Prabhupāda: Any craftsman, we say mistri.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: So mistri has no position. Maybe correct. In our Vedic civilization a learned brahmin is honored, not a mistri. Is it not?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: A learned brahmin, is not expected to manufacture a watch, but he's more honored than one who is actually . . . this modern age is: if he manufactures watch he is honored. Not the learned brahmin. That is Kali-yuga. That is Kali-yuga. They do not know whom to honor. That is the Kali-yuga going on. You kill so many souls, and if you have a great big skyscraper building, then you are successful. And those who constructed the skyscraper, they are going to become dog, never mind, the skyscraper building is there. That's all. That is success. This is modern civilization. After they constructed the skyscraper building all the mistris are going to hell, that doesn't matter. The building is there. Is it not?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is civilization. Long ago in 1917 perhaps, in our college, we saw one magazine.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: St. Xavier's College?

Prabhupāda: No, Scottish.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, Scottish.

Prabhupāda: Scottish Churches College. So one American, Scientific American, we have contribute. So there the picture was that one skyscraper building is constructed and so many men are working, carrying the beams and so on. So there was—I remember still—that all, some material construction, so many living entities they are being sacrificed. I do not know how the Scientific American gave this picture, I still remember. Actually that is a fact. This human being would have been released from this materialistic way of life, back to home, back to . . . no, instead of giving them the chance, they are engaged in constructing huge skyscraper building. They're spoiled. So it is little difficult to understand our philosophy. And Prahlāda Mahārāja said, tat-prayāso na kartavyo yata āyur-vyayaḥ param. Tat-prayāso na kartavyaḥ. This kind of activity should stop. It is simply wasting the valuable life. But they do not know how they're wasting. They're in such an ignorance. They are thinking that these people, crazy people, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, are wasting time, they're thinking like that. They do not know what is the value of life.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's a fact that the material opulence is actually a hindrance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām, vyavasāyātmikā buddhi . . . what is that? Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām (BG 2.44). Their life will be spoiled. And when they are tired, give them sex, and wine, and meat, and gambling, they are satisfied. Again as soon as they get little energy, again begin another skyscraper. You got this human life for solving all the problems. He is not given the chance. He's engaged otherwise, his life is spoiled. (end)