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Prabhupāda: This
<div class="code">660722BG.NY - July 22, 1966</div>


<div class="lec_verse">
Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare<br />
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare</div>


<mp3player>https://s3.amazonaws.com/vanipedia/full/1966/660722BG-NEW_YORK.mp3</mp3player>


[My dear Lord, and the spiritual energy of the Lord, kindly engage me in Your service. I am now embarrassed with this material service. Please engage me in Your service.]


This is transcendental sound vibration. This is transcendental sound vibration, and this will help us to cleanse the dust on the mirror of our mind. On the mind we have accumulated material dust. Just like on the Second Avenue, due to the constant traffic of motor car, there is always a creation of dusting over everything, similarly, by our manipulation of materialistic activities, there are some material dusts which are accumulated on the mind, and therefore we are unable to see things in true perspective. So this process, this vibration of transcendental sound, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare, will cleanse the dust. And, as soon as the dust is cleared, then, as you can see on the mirror the nice face of yours, similarly we can see our real, I mean to say, constitutional position, "what I am." And as soon as I understand that "I am not this body, I am spirit soul, and my symptom is consciousness," and that consciousness, as it is purified by this process, the whole material miseries will be over.
Prabhupāda:


Bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [[CC Antya 20.12]] . In Sanskrit language, it is said... Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya's picture you have seen on the showcase. He's dancing, and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare. This sound vibration of Kṛṣṇa, Hare, Rāma, as soon as the mind is cleared off, then we'll see our real position, and the immediate result is bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. There is a fire always blazing over this material world. Everyone is trying to extinguish it, but it is not possible to extinguish this fire of material miseries unless we are situated in our pure consciousness of spiritual life. That is the whole thing.
:''ye yathā māṁ prapadyante''
:''tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham''
:''mama vartmānuvartante''
:''manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ''
:([[BG 4.11 (1972)|BG 4.11]])


Now, we were discussing last meeting,
Lord Kṛṣṇa says that, "Every man is following My path, indirectly or directly." The supreme position of the Lord is that He is in the supreme absolute position, and every other living being, they are all subordinate. In the Vedic Upaniṣad it is clearly stated, ''nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām, eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān'' (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13).


<div class="lec_verse">
This is the natural law in any society, in any community, in any country, even in the animal society. If you go to the forest there are societies of different animal—elephant society, tiger society, deer society, jackal society, wolf society. Even in the birds, you'll find, the birds of the same feather flock together. This is the natural way. You'll find that all the pigeons, they flock together, not the crows and the pigeons flock together. The ducks, they flock together. Similarly, this is the natural way, and there . . . in every group there is a leader.
yadā yadā hi dharmasya<br />
glānir bhavati bhārata<br />
abhyutthānam adharmasya<br />
tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham<br />
[[BG 4.7]] </div>


So the Supreme Lord, He is called in the Vedic literature that He is the supreme leader. ''Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām''. ''Nitya'' means eternal, and ''nityānām'', that means many other eternals. We are many other eternals. ''Eka'', that one eternal . . . ''eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān''. There are two kinds of eternals. We living entities, we are also eternal, and the Supreme Lord, He is also eternal. So far eternity is concerned, both of us equal on the qualitative nature. He is eternal, and we are eternal. ''Sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha'' (Bs 5.1).


<div class="lec_verse">
He is also all pleasure, and we are also all pleasure, because we are all parts and parcel of the same quality. So, but He is the leader. ''Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān'': "That one is maintaining all these many's." We, the living entities, we are many's.
paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ<br />
vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām<br />
dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya<br />
sambhavāmi yuge yuge<br />
[[BG 4.8]] </div>


So our position is always subordinate. That is our natural constitutional position. Now, the Supreme Lord's position is the leadership, and our position is subordinate. Now, then what is our duty? Our duty is to follow the leader. And actually we are doing so. We have got . . . instead of . . . we have forgotten that the supreme leader is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but still, for our daily activities we create the leader. We accept some leader and follow his principles.


Why the Lord comes as incarnation. This point we have been discussing last meeting. And what is dharma, what is religion? Perhaps you'll remember that the translation in the English language, dharma, is a description of certain kind of faith, but according to the Vedic literature, dharma is not a kind of faith. Faith can be changed, but dharma cannot be changed.
Just like you have elected your leader as President Johnson, the president of your state. He is supposed to be the leader of your nation, and he is asking you to go to the Vietnam and sacrifice your life. So you are following. So this is the natural position. Even if we do not accept God, if we do not accept the leadership of God, we have to select another leader. We cannot get rid of this principle, that we can live without leader. That is our constitutional position.


This point we have already explained. Just like the liquidity of water cannot be changed. If it is changed... Suppose the water becomes solid. Under certain temperature, it becomes ice. But that is not its constitutional position. It is under certain condition. Similarly, our position is, our religion, or dharma, is, that we are part and parcel of the Supreme, and with that supreme consciousness we have to dovetail our activities with the Supreme. That is our constitutional position. That service attitude, transcendental service attitude, which has to be dovetailed with the supreme consciousness, is being misused by our material contact.
So the difficulty is that . . . our difficulty is that instead of following the supreme leader, we are creating by mental concoction some leader according to our material conception of life, and we are following. That is our position. So Lord Kṛṣṇa says:


The service attitude or the engagement is there. Every one of us is a servant. Nobody is a master. He must be serving somebody. This point we have discussed. Even President Johnson, he is the chief man of your state; still, he's a servant of the state. So nobody's master here. To think of oneself that "I am the master, I am the master of all I survey," this is called māyā, illusion. I am not ser... I am not master. I am servant. So my service is now being misused under different designations. So as soon as we become free from the designations, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam... [[CC Antya 20.12]]. That means when we can see exactly the position on the mirror of our mind after dusting over, that "My position, my constitutional position is that I am eternal servant."
:''ye yathā māṁ prapadyante''
:''tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham''
:''mama vartmānuvartante''
:''manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ''
:([[BG 4.11 (1972)|BG 4.11]])


But we should not think that my service in the material world, and my service in the spiritual atmosphere is the same. No. It is not the same. We, we are shuddered, "Oh, after liberation, we have to become a servant. Oh." We shudder because we have no idea that what sort of servant is in the transcendental world. In the transcendental world, there is no distinction between the servant and the master. Here is distinction between the servant and the master, but in the transcendental world, in the absolute world, everything is one. Therefore there is no distinction between servant and master.
People are actually following the same principle, but the difficulty is that in our this position of lower nature we are following in the manner which will not make us happy and satisfied. Because we are not following the supreme leader, the difficulty. By constitutional position we are to follow a leader, but because we are misled, because we are deluded to follow a leader which is not perfect, therefore our position is always unhappy in spite of following the leadership of a concocted nature.


For example, we are speaking on the Bhagavad-gītā. Just see the position of Kṛṣṇa. He has taken the position of servant, chariot driver of Arjuna. Arjuna is practically, in his constitutional position, he is the servant of Kṛṣṇa, but in behavior we see, sometimes the Lord becomes the servant of the servant [[CC Madhya 13.80]] . So we should not carry the materialistic idea in the spiritual... Although anything that we materially experience is a perverted reflection only of the spiritual life...
Therefore the best thing will be to get rid of this concocted position and follow the supreme leader. That is the highest perfection. Just try to understand that I cannot avoid following someone's leadership. That is not possible. Can anyone say that, "We can avoid this"? No. We cannot avoid. Even if we don't accept the leadership of God, we have to accept some other leaders. That is our position. We cannot avoid it.


So that constitutional position, which cannot be changed, which is called dharma, in order to pre..., when that is deteriorated by contamination of matter, at that time, the Lord Himself comes as incarnation or He sends some of His confidential servitors. Just like Lord Jesus Christ, he said that "I am son of God." So he's representative of the Supreme. And similarly, Hajrat Muhammad, he also identified himself as a servant. Padat hi bandhaḥ., a servant of the Lord. So this is the position that whenever there is discrepancies in the natural law of our constitutional position, the master, the Supreme Lord, either He Himself comes in incarnation or He sends some representative to inform us what is actually the position of the living entity. So this is explained here by Lord Kṛṣṇa, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [[BG 4.7]] .  
So there is a very nice verse in the ''Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam''. A ''brāhmin'', he was a family man, just like worldly man, as we are. Now, ''brāhmins'' are generally expected to be highly learned, and he was very learned man in Vedic literature. And when he came to his consciousness by reading all this Vedic literature, that "Although I am following the leadership, why I am not happy? Why I am not happy?" . . . this question should arise in the sane human mind. One should think that, "I am following the leadership of somebody, according to my position and according to my circumstances. But still, I am not happy. Why?"


So this position, this dharma, is not exactly a kind of created faith. It is the constitutional position. Dharma means the constitutional position. Just like sugar. Sugar's constitutional position is to become sweet. Salt—constitutional position is to become salty, alkaline taste. And water is liquid. Stone is solid. These specifical, specific qualification is called dharma. Similarly, we living entities, we have got a specific qualification: the eternal attitude to serve others. So that, how to serve Kṛṣṇa, how to attain Kṛṣṇa consciousness, how to give up our material engagement in different designations—this science and this truth is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [[BG 4.7]] . Paritrāṇāya sādhūnām [[BG 4.7]] .  
Why we select one leader? The leader should be such a leader that they shall . . . he shall make happy and prosperous persons who follow him. That is the question of leadership. But actually, if we think in sober mind and cool head, we can understand that although we are following leadership, may be whatever he may be, still, we are not happy. Now, the ''brāhmin'' concluded that, "This following leadership is the following leadership of my lust." I select one leader according to my lust. Just like in political parties there are many leaders, but I like the some particular type of political pursuit—someone likes Democratic political pursuit; someone likes Congress political pursuit; someone likes Communist political pursuit. So we have got different desires.


The sādhu... In the Bhagavad-gītā, in the last meeting, I have described to some extent what is the qualification of a sādhu. Sādhu means saintly person. Titikṣavaḥ kāruṇikāḥ suhṛdaḥ sarva-dehinām [[SB 3.25.21]] . He's tolerant, he's very kind to everyone, and he's friend to all living entities. He has no enemy, or he is nobody's enemy. And he's peaceful. These are some of the qualification. There are twenty-six qualification in detail. But these are some of the qualification. And in the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find the description of a sādhu, saintly person, is given by the Lord Himself.
So practically, if we study very minutely, then we are not following the leadership but we are following our particular lust. I have got a particular lust within me, and when I find somebody corroborating with that particular lust, oh, I accept him, that leader. That is my position. Therefore I do not follow anyone's leadership, but I follow my own leadership. That is the lust. I want to do . . . I like to do something, and if somebody says: "Oh, yes, it is very nice," "Oh, you are my leader. If you confirm my lust, then you are my leader." That is the material leadership.


And what is that? He says,
But the Supreme Lord is not like such . . . He is not such a leader. He is not going to follow your lust. In the ''Bhagavad-gītā'' you will find that the Supreme Lord says in the Eighteenth Chapter:


<div class="lec_verse">
:''sarva-dharmān parityajya''
api cet su-durācāro<br />
:''mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja''
bhajate mām ananya-bhāk<br />
:''ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo''
sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ<br />
:''mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ''
samyag vyavasito hi saḥ<br />
:([[BG 18.66 (1972)|BG 18.66]])
[[BG 9.30]] </div>


He says: "My dear Arjuna, I have spoken to you all about ''Bhagavad-gītā''. I do not know whether you have understood the whole thing or not, but because you are My friend and I love you and you love Me, I say you the most confidential thing to you. And what is that? You give up everything and just follow Me. You just give up all your concocted things in the mind and just become Kṛṣṇa conscious."


He says, "Arjuna, a person who is cent-percent engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he might be externally, ephemerally seen to be addicted to some bad habits. Still, you should consider him to be a saint. You should consider him to be saint."
"Oh, I shall give up everything and simply I shall follow You?" "Yes." "Oh, how can I do? I have got so many department of knowledge and department of things. How can I?" No. He says, ''mā śucaḥ'': "Don't hesitate." Then what will be the result? The result will be ''ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi'' ([[BG 18.6 (1972)|BG 18.6]]): "I shall deliver you from all reactions of your sinful acts."


What is that? Now, suppose we have contaminated so many things in our material life. There are, in the material calculation, there are so many things which are the list. One list is for morality, and another list is for immorality. I do not wish to discuss this list because in, for a person which is immorality, for another person, it is not immorality; it is morality. Just like according to our conception, Hindu conception, drinking of wine is immoral, whereas in your country drinking of wine is not immoral. It is common thing. Of course, so according to time, class, place, the conception of morality and immorality are different. But there is a, a sense of immorality and morality in everywhere. That is a fact.
You know, of course, according to Vedic literature . . . and I don't say about the Vedic literature. That is the injunction of every scripture, either Bible, Quran or any religious scripture, that we suffer due to our sinful actions. And our sinful actions are due to our ignorance. This is the cause.


So Kṛṣṇa says that "Even if you see a person immoral, but he is completely engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it should be concluded that he is a saint." He's a saintly person. That is the description given by Kṛṣṇa of sādhu. Api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [[BG 9.30]] . So in other words, He says, "Any person who is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Never mind, he might have something externally immoral habits due to his past association. It doesn't matter." So some way or other, one should be Kṛṣṇa conscious. And then, gradually, he will become a saintly person; as he goes on executing this process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then, with his advancement, he becomes a perfect saint. That you'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā. And how Kṛṣṇa says that even if he's externally a little immoral... Of course, a devotee or a person who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's never immoral. But it may be that due to his past association he may appear to be immoral or he may fall down, fall down. Due to habits, we may sometimes fall down.
Now, you will find in the ''Bhagavad-gītā'':


There is a story how habit is the second nature. There was a thief, and he went to pilgrimage with some other friends. So at night, when other friends were sleeping... Because his habit was to steal at night, he, so he got up at night and he was taking one body's baggage and tried to pickpocket or take something. But he was thinking, "Oh, I have come to this holy place of pilgrimage. Still, shall I do that, committing theft, my habit? No, no. I shall not do it." So he was taking the bag of one person and was keeping in another place. So in the whole night the poor fellow did like that. But due to his conscience that, "I have come to this holy place. At least, during my stay here I shall not do this stealing business." So in the morning, when all other friends got up, everyone said, "Oh, where is my bag? I don't see!" Another man says, "I don't see my bag." Then somebody says, "Oh, here is your bag!" So there was some row. So they, they thought, "What is the matter? How it so happened?" Then the thief rose up and told all friends, "My dear gentlemen, I am a thief by occupation, but because I have that habit to steal at night, so I wanted to steal something from your bag, but I thought that 'I have come to this holy place. I shall not do it.' So I placed, I might have placed one man's bag in another man's place. So excuse me." So this is the habit. This is the habit. He does not want. He does not want to commit theft. But he has got the habit of doing that. So similarly, here he has decided not to commit theft anymore, but because he's habituated, sometimes he does.
:''teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ''
:''bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam''
:''buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ''
:''yena mām upayānti te''
:([[BG 10.10 (1972)|BG 10.10]])


So therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "In that condition, one who has decided to stop all bad or immoral habits and just to make his progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even by chance, if he does something which is immoral in the face of the society, that should not be taken account of." Of course, that is by chance. And in the next verse, you'll find, kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā: "Because he has dovetailed himself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is sure that he will become a saintly, I mean to say, a pure saint very soon. Very soon."
"Any person who is devoutedly is attached to Me and is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious with love and faith, unto him, I give dictation in such a way that he will come to Me." "He will come to Me." How He will give me dictation? Oh, ''īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati'' ([[BG 18.61 (1972)|BG 18.61]]): "The Supreme Lord, by His plenary portion, He is situated within your heart." ''Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati'', that we individual soul and the Supreme Soul, both of them are sitting in this tree of body.


The example is... Just like the electric fan is going on, and if you put off the switch, you'll see the fan is still going on. But that going on will stop because the switch is already off. Similarly, if one dovetails himself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then automatically he'll become a saintly person, automatically. Because his switch is made off. Just like the fan, when the switch is made off, the current supply is stopped. Now... There was a force of running. You may see that it is running for few minutes. But it will stop. Similarly, anyone, it doesn't matter what he is, if he puts himself, dovetails himself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he, all his material contamination will be washed off, washed off.
That is the Vedic injunction. The ''Veda'' says that two birds, just like friends, they are sitting on the same tree. One bird is eating the fruit of the tree, and the other bird is not eating the fruit but is simply observing the activities of the other bird. This description we get from Vedic literature.


This is the easiest process. There was many examples. Of course, there are, in scriptures, there are many, many good examples. But it is a fact that anyone who takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he doesn't require to endeavor for becoming a good man, I mean to say, separately. That Kṛṣṇa consciousness will help him to be the best man in the world. Api cet su-durācāraḥ. And there are other confirmation in the Bhāgavata, that yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ: [[SB 5.18.12]] "Anyone who has attained the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he attains all good qualities automatically." And harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ: "Anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness..." When I speak of Kṛṣṇa, you can take it as God.
The bird which is not eating the fruit of the tree, he is the Supersoul. And the bird which is eating the fruit of the tree, he is the soul, individual soul. That is we are. We are sitting in this tree of body, and we are eating. This body means every one of us has got a particular body for particular type of distress or enjoyment. Every living being is responsible for his past act, and he gets a body, either human body or animal body, American body or Indian body or African body. There are different kinds of . . . I have several times repeated that 8,400,000's of different bodies.


So in... So a person who is devoid of God consciousness, however he may be qualified from the material point of view, the scripture says that his qualification will not help him in doing things which are not desirable. He'll, he'll, he'll not be prohibited to do things which are not desirable. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ: [[SB 5.18.12]] "Because he's devoid of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he's sure to commit mischief in this material world."
So living entity is . . . according to his work, he is wandering in this circle in the cycle of different species of life. But the Supreme Lord, He is so kind and so friendly with us that He is also with us. Suppose I am sitting in this bird. As soon as I fly to another . . . I am sitting in this tree, and as soon as I fly to another tree, the other bird, He also follows me. He also follows me, and sits again in that tree. He is so friendly.


Now, the next verse is
Just imagine how much kind and how much friendly is the Lord. He is always trying to call me back again to Him. We are trying to noncooperate with Him. We are trying to noncooperate, and He is trying to cooperate. He is sitting with me in the same branch, He is witnessing, He is observing, and He is waiting, simply waiting when we shall turn my face, when I shall turn my face towards Him. That is the whole thing.


<div class="lec_verse">
So here ''Bhagavad-gītā'', Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, says, ''ye yathā māṁ prapadyante''. He is waiting, waiting when you shall turn, when I shall turn my face towards Him. That's all. He is waiting. Just like . . . just you can imagine, just like a father and a rebelled child or insane child. Those who have got . . . of course, you are all young men here. Those who are elderly person, they have got experience. If their sons go wrong, how much they are anxious. How much the father is anxious to get his son back again. Back again. That is the natural instinct.
janma karma ca me divyam<br />
evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ<br />
tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma<br />
naiti mām eti so 'rjuna<br />
[[BG 4.9]] </div>


And wherefrom this instinct comes? This instinct comes from the Supreme, because in the ''Vedānta-sūtra'' you will find that everything, whatever you are finding in this material world or spiritual world, everything, that has come from the Supreme. ''Janmādy asya yataḥ'' ([[SB 1.1.1]]): "He is the supreme source, fountainhead of everything."


"My dear Arjuna, the reason, the mission for which I appear is now explained, that I come here to establish the real constitutional position of the living entity. That is My mission. Now, when I come with some mission there are some activities. There are some activities." So there are some philosophers. They do not agree to accept that God comes as incarnation. They do not believe in this theory. They say that "Why God shall come to this rotten world?" That is their vision.
So similarly, whatever we see, paternal affection, conjugal love, friendship or master and servant . . . there are so many things we are related in this material world. We must always know that all these sentiments, they are coming from the Supreme. So here the paternal affection which we see here or the conjugal love which we see here, that is simply a perverted reflection of the Supreme.


But here, from the Bhagavad-gītā, we understand that God comes. We shall always remember that we are reading Bhagavad-gītā, and whatever is spoken in the Bhagavad-gītā, we have to, at least, we have to accept that. Otherwise, there is no question of reading this Bhagavad-gītā. Here the Lord says that "I am, I am present here as incarnation, and this is My mission." And as He comes with a mission, there are some activities.
So you just . . . if we can study this material relationship between one living being to another living being, then if . . . a sober student, a philosophical-minded student, can understand what is our relation with God. It is not very difficult to understand.


Just like Lord Kṛṣṇa is taking part with Arjuna, and He's taking part in the battlefield of the Kurukṣetra. Just like ordinary man. When there is war between two parties, somebody takes part with this party, or somebody takes part, or some nation takes part with one party or another nation takes part with another nation. So here also, we see that Kṛṣṇa is taking part with Arjuna. Partiality. It appears that Kṛṣṇa is partial. So Kṛṣṇa is not partial. But it, externally, it appears that "He is partial. How He can be God?"
Now here Kṛṣṇa says, ''ye yathā māṁ prapadyante''. ''Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante''. He is looking after always, "When the living entity shall turn his face towards Me?" And as we turn our face towards Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Lord, He also responds in proportionately. He also responds proportionately. It is not difficult.


Now, therefore this verse is spoken by Lord Kṛṣṇa. So janma karma me divyam: [[BG 4.9]] "My activities and My coming down to this material world is transcendental." Divyam means transcendental. It is not ordinary thing. Just like Kṛṣṇa, we observe in India the Kṛṣṇa's birthday. This month of August, by the end of August, there will be Kṛṣṇa's birthday, and every Indian home, especially the Hindus, never mind in whatever sect or division they belong, they observe Kṛṣṇa's birthday. As here in the Christian world you observe the birthday of Lord Jesus Christ, similarly... So janma... Now, here Kṛṣṇa says that "My janma, My birth..." And because there is birth, so there are some activities. Just like we have taken our birth and there are some activities. So this Kṛṣṇa's birth and Kṛṣṇa's activities are transcendental. Transcendental means they are not these material activities.
Somebody says: "Can we see God?" Yes, you can see God. But how much ''prapatti''? How much you have surrendered to God? Surrender to God . . . how much qualification you have acquired for seeing God? Seeing God is not very difficult, but at the same time it is very difficult. Just like if I want to see President Johnson, if I am unknown to him, oh, I will have to take so many formalities. I will have to write to his secretary, and the secretary will give me some time or may not give me some time. So many things. But if you are personally known to President Johnson, you are intimately thick and thin with him, and as soon as you call him, "Mr. Johnson, I want to see you," "Yes, you can come."


Now, people will be surprised, "How Kṛṣṇa's activities are transcendental? He's taking part with Arjuna. He's taking part in the battlefield of Kurukṣetra. Oh, He's born of a father whose name is Vasudeva. And He has got a family. And so on, so on. So just like us." But He says it is transcendental. Transcendental. And again He says, divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ. Tattvataḥ means "in truth." Simply by knowing, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is born here at Mathurā, and He was brought up by His foster father at Vṛndāvana. Then, when He was grown up, He went back to His father at Dvārakā. And when He was old, He married so many wives and He had children, and there was a battle of Kurukṣetra, and He took part." These things are there in the history or in the scriptures, but one has to understand this tattvataḥ, tattvataḥ, in truth.
So it depends on the thick-and-thin–ship of your relations with Supreme Lord. If you can establish your relationship with the Supreme Lord in love . . . the Lord does not require our cooperation. He is full in Himself. He does not require my service, but still, if you love Him, then He reciprocates. So our reciprocation with the Lord depends on the proportion of our love, love of Godhead. This love of Godhead can be attained by Kṛṣṇa consciousness.


And the one who understands this Kṛṣṇa's birth and activities and His presence tattvataḥ, in truth, then what the result is? The result is tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [[BG 4.9]] . The result is that any person who understands this Kṛṣṇa's activities, His birth and His pastimes, His paraphernalia, everything, the result will..., simply by understanding it, the result will be that after leaving this material body, he goes directly to Kṛṣṇa. He goes directly to Kṛṣṇa. That means he becomes a liberated soul, and he goes to the eternal world, and he becomes in his constitutional position of blissful and knowledge and eternal life. Simply by knowing this. Simply by knowing in truth the transcendental nature of Kṛṣṇa's birth and activities, one is at once promoted to the, I mean, the transcendental world. This is clearly stated here. Tyaktvā deham.  
So ye ''yathā māṁ prapadyante''. A proportionately, as I surrender unto the Supreme Lord . . . we must always know that our background of relationship is that we are subordinate and He is great. God is great. We cannot be equal with Him. We have to follow. He is the supreme leader. Therefore Lord Kṛṣṇa says that, "You give up everything." He is trying to give you leadership. He is prepared to give you all leadership, provided you are prepared to follow His leadership. That's all. Reciprocation. And in proportionately, proportionately as you accept His leadership, He also responds reciprocally. ''Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante''. As you . . .


Just like when... Ordinarily, when we give up these bodies, we quit this body, we have to accept another body. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [[BG 2.22]] . We have discussed this point that we living entities, our life is going on simply by changing dresses from one body to another, transmigration of the soul according to our work. So this, this body is dress. Therefore I have got an actual body. Just like at the present moment we think, "This material body is my actual body and there is dress, shirt and coat. The shirt and coat is superficial to this actual body." But here in the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find that we have got our real, spiritual body, separate from the material covering. And as we give up old garments, old dress, and take up another, new dress, another new garment, similarly, we give up this body, material body when it is old enough, when it cannot be used or... Then we give it up, and we take another body. And this change of body is going on every moment and every second. This point also we have discussed.
So everything depends on me. I can see God. Just like I am seeing you face to face, you are seeing me face to face, similarly, you can see Kṛṣṇa face to face. Just like Arjuna saw face to face. Why? Because the relationship was so nice that they were in friendly relation. So seeing of God is not very difficult. Simply we have to acquire that qualification. In the ''Brahma-saṁhitā''—this is another Vedic literature—it is said:


That, that particular verse,
:''premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena''
:''santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti''
:''yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya-guṇa-svarūpaṁ''
:''govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi''
:(Bs 5.38)


<div class="lec_verse">
''Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena''. Now, we have to prepare our eyes to see God. That's all. Just like we are seeing here a thing, say, suppose a motorcar. A layman is seeing, and another, mechanic, who knows how the motorcar is running, what are the machinery, how it is fitted, he is also seeing. So this layman seeing and the expert seeing is different.
dehino 'smin yathā dehe<br />
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā<br />
tathā dehāntara-prāptir<br />
dhīras tatra na muhyati<br />
[[BG 2.13]] </div>


The expert mechanic, he can see the car, who has made it, who is the maker and how it is running, and so many things he can see. And layman, he can see just a car. So similarly, to see everything . . . just like we are seeing the sun, a child is seeing the sun and a scientist, astronomer, is also seeing the sun. So both seeing are not the same.


Just like the, the entity, living entity is in the body... Just like a child. The living entity's there. The body is very small. But that small body is growing, growing. That is changing. And growing, growing, that small child becomes a boy, grown up boy. And that grown up boy gradually becomes a youth. And then that youth becomes an old man, old man. And then, after, at the end, when the body's no more useful, he changes to another body. So this death means the ultimate change of the present body. So this body's changing. Now, Kṛṣṇa says that as the body is changing, still, the person whose body is this, he's there. He's there. The child is grown up to a boyhood. That does not mean the living entity who came out as a baby is gone. No, he's still there. But his body has changed. Now, you cannot find the small body which came out of the mother's womb when the grown up boy. And you cannot find in a youth that grown, grown up boyhood photograph, or the body. That is gone.
So seeing God is not difficult, but we have to prepare our eyes. And how that eyes . . . how that eye is prepared, that is stated in the Vedic literature, that if you kindly smear your eyeballs with the ointment of love. There is an ointment. Of course, it is not available in the drug shop. (laughter) You have to prepare that ointment. You have to prepare that eye ointment, love, love ointment. And if you smear with that love ointment your eyes, then you can see Kṛṣṇa always.


So every moment we are having a new body. And that is a medical science truth. Medical science, it is... We are having new body at every moment. Similarly, when we take another body, oh, a person who knows things as they are, they are not bewildered. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. Dhīra means who is conscious of this bodily change, who knows things as they are, he's not, I mean to, bewildered. He's not, he's, he's steady, "Oh, he has changed his body. That's all." A person who does not know, he's crying. He..., "Oh, my son is gone. My son is gone. My son is gone." But if he's, I mean to say, in the consciousness, he knows, "Oh, my son has simply changed body." That's all. Just immediately, exactly, "My son, when he was little baby... Now he has grown up to be a boy." So the father and the parents do not lament, "Oh, where my, that son gone, that small baby gone?"
:''premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena''
:''santaḥ sadaiva'' . . .
:(Bs 5.38)


Similarly, that change of body... So our body is like that. We are changing. In the material condition. In the material condition we are simply changing our body. That is our disease. This conditional life of changing the bodies, one after another, one after... Not only human body. We may have to change to animal's body, or to another demigod's body. There are different species of life. I have several times spoken before you, that there are 8,400,000's of species of life. So our body's being changed in this circle of these 8,400,000's of different species of life. This is called our material bondage.
''Sadaiva'' means always. Always. Not a single moment you are without Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, do you think that . . .


Now, here Kṛṣṇa says that one who knows the Kṛṣṇa's transcendental birth and activities in truth, he gets free from this entanglement. He at once gets free from this entanglement. Now, here the word tattvataḥ is very important. This tattvataḥ is the science of Kṛṣṇa. Tattvataḥ, "in truth." Simply by knowing by historical facts that Kṛṣṇa is born in such and such date in such and such place in such and such family... He did such and such activities. No. One has to learn them in tattvataḥ, in truth. Then he becomes free from this bodily entanglement. (door slams) How it is closed?
Of course, in India we have got many sages, they are living in the jungle, aloof from human society, without any fear, without any caring the animals or for life, for fooding. How? Because he is seeing always Kṛṣṇa there, so he has no fear. He has no fear. He is enjoying life there. There are many instances. In our line, one Rūpa Gosvāmī . . . Rūpa Gosvāmī, he was the prime minister of the then government.


Now, how that tattvataḥ, in truth, the Kṛṣṇa science, how one can understand? Kṛṣṇa science, that is explained in the Eighteenth Chapter, how Kṛṣṇa science can be understood. Kṛṣṇa science can be understood by this devotional service. You'll find this verse, that bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [[BG 18.55]] . Yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ. The truth of Kṛṣṇa science can be understood by become, by becoming a devotee, or a person of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he can simply understand what is this science of Kṛṣṇa; others cannot. Now, it is very clearly stated, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti. Bhaktyā means Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti: "One can understand Me very clearly by the process of that devotional service, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness."
Five hundred years before, India was under the Pathan rule, Bengal, and there was a king whose name was Nawab Hussain Shah. Nawab Hussain Shah's prime minister was Sākara Mallika. That Sākara Mallika later on became a great devotee of Lord Caitanya, and his name was transformed into Rūpa Gosvāmī.


And in the Fourth, beginning of the Fourth Chapter, we have also discussed that Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna that "I am speaking to you the old process of yoga system, this bhakti-yoga system of Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Bhagavad-gītā unto you, because you are My devotee." This point also we have discussed, that without becoming a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, nobody can understand the mystery of Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā is not a book that you can purchase from the market, and simply by your scholarship you can understand it. No. It is not possible. That, that point we have discussed. Bhakto 'si priyo 'si: [[BG 4.3]] "You are, because you are My devotee..." Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna was ordinary family man. He was a military man. And Kṛṣṇa said that "I am speaking to you." He was not a Vedic Vedantist or a very good scholar in Vedānta philosophy, or he was not a brāhmaṇa, or he was not a renouncer, nothing of the sort. He was a military man. Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna was a military man, and he was a family man. He was to look after the interest of his family. Still, Kṛṣṇa selected him to be the authority of Bhagavad-gītā. Why? Now, bhakto 'si: "Because you are My devotee." So that is the qualification.
So they were coming from very aristocratic family, but they gave up everything and lived at Vṛndāvana, eating only dry bread and whatever nonsense they . . . they were very rich men, but still, how they could live in such a way? That is described that ''tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat'': "They gave up all aristocratic association just like insignificant." And:


So to become Kṛṣṇa conscious is the qualification to understand Bhagavad-gītā as well as to understand Kṛṣṇa as He is. Therefore we have to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. And what is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Now, this process which you have adopted, which you have adopted. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. Now, this chanting and this hearing of Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā hearing as it is, from persons who are engaged in this business. That will help us to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. And as soon as we become Kṛṣṇa conscious, Kṛṣṇa also help us to understand.
:''tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat''
:''bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau''
:(Śrī Śrī Ṣaḍ Gosvāmy Aṣṭaka 4)


In the Bhāgavata, there is a verse:
"And they adopted life of mendicant just to show mercy to the fallen souls." But how they lived?


<div class="lec_verse">
:''gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī-kallola-magnau sadā''
śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ<br />
:''vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau''
puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ<br />
:(Śrī Śrī Ṣaḍ Gosvāmy Aṣṭaka 4)
hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi<br />
vidhunoti suhṛt satām<br />
[[SB 1.2.17]] </div>


"They were merged in the ocean of love of Kṛṣṇa, and they lived so happily." That is . . . there is a position like that, that you can forget all these material comforts. But there is no comfort in the material life. It is so-called. It is simply a delusion. We are thinking that we are comfortable. And suppose we are comfortable. How long you shall live in that comfort? That is limited. Either the comfort will leave you or you have to leave the comfort. It may be that your position . . .


Kṛṣṇa is always present in your heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānām, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānām arjuna tiṣṭhati [[BG 18.61]] . You'll find in Bhagavad-gītā: "The Lord is present in everyone's heart as Supersoul." We are both, the soul, living entity, and the Supersoul, both are in the, sitting in this tree of body. One is eating the fruit. Another is witness. That is also described in the Vedas. The Lord is there. So as soon as you begin the process of devotional service and gradually develop your Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then Lord, who is sitting within your heart, He will help you.
The comfortable position which you have created by your monetary strength may be that your monetary strength may go down and you become a pauper. So comfort leaves you. Or if you continue . . . even if you continue a comfortable life, then death comes and you leave the comfortable. You go away. So there will be separation, certainly.


Śṛṇvatām... How He'll help you? He'll help you in the same process, dusting over, I mean to say, dust out, to take out all the dirty things which have accumulated within our mind. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi. Abhadrāṇi means the dirty things, the dirty things which we have accumulated by our material association, Kṛṣṇa will help us to remove that dirt. Hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi vidhunoti suhṛt satām. Because He is a friend of all saintly persons. He's a friend. So our endeavor to become Kṛṣṇa conscious is a saintly endeavor, and so He also cooperates.
Therefore the ''brāhmin'' of whose story I was telling, he, when, after going through this Vedic literature, he understood that "I am following the leadership wrongly of my lust. I am not following the leadership of anyone else. It is false. And although I am accepting somebody as my leader, but actually I accept somebody as my leader who corroborates with my lust. Therefore lust created by me is my leader." So he said, ''kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśāḥ'' ([[CC Madhya 22.16]]): "Oh, I have followed the leadership of my lust, and in doing so, I am ashamed to, I mean to say, accept it. I agree to accept it, that I have done so many nonsense by the dictation of my lust." ''Kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśāḥ''.


And this is the process, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam [[SB 7.5.23]] , chanting and hearing of this Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam with aural reception, submissive aural reception. That very process will teach us the truth of the Kṛṣṇa science, and when we understand the Kṛṣṇa science, automatically we understand what is Kṛṣṇa, and as soon as we understand Kṛṣṇa, the next result is that after leaving this material, this present material body, we go at once to the kingdom of Kṛṣṇa. This is the whole process. Tyaktvā deham, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [[SB 7.5.23]] . Then he does not come again to this miserable world. He goes back to Godhead, back to home.
When a person is lustful, then he can do any nonsense thing. Lust is so strong. He can do any nonsense. ''Durnideśāḥ''. ''Durnideśāḥ'' means the direction which I should not have followed, but being, I mean to say, pressed by my lust, even I followed which I should not have followed.


And what is that home? That you'll find. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [[BG 15.6]] . Such description is there also in the Bhagavad-gītā, what is the position of that transcendental world. Na tad bhāsayate sūryaḥ. There is no, there is no need of the sun. There is no need of the moon. There is no need of electricity. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā.  
So he is just studying his own life, that "So far I have followed the leadership of my lust, but the result is that my lust is not satisfied." ''Teṣāṁ na trapā nopaśāntiḥ''. Lust will never be satisfied. "My lust is never satisfied, neither he is giving me release of this slavery of my lust." So he says: "My dear Lord, Kṛṣṇa, I have understood that I have followed the leadership of my lust so long, but the result is that the leader whom I have followed, neither he is satisfied, neither I am satisfied." Neither the leader is satisfied . . .


So this is this world. This material world is dark, is always dark. Therefore here we require the sun and the moon and the electric light. Otherwise, it is dark. As soon as the electricity will fail, then whole city will be in darkness. So the nature of this... And the Vedic mantra also says that "Don't remain in this darkness." Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya: "Just try to transfer yourself in that illuminated world." Jyotir gamaya. Jyoti means illumination. So this world, this material world, is full of darkness. Darkness, one meaning of darkness is ignorance. And another darkness, you know, without, absence of light. So this nature of this material world is darkness. So if we understand the Kṛṣṇa science, and the activities of Kṛṣṇa, how He comes, how He works, what is the mission of His activity...
Just like, I'll give you a concrete example. In India, I know, Mahatma Gandhi was the leader. But you know that at the last stage he was killed. That means the leader could not satisfy the public, neither public was satisfied with the leader. This is the material leadership. Nobody can . . . just like we see so many criticisms of President Johnson. The other day I was seeing in the paper, they have given some caricature. So this is going on. Nobody is satisfied. ''Kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśāḥ'' ([[CC Madhya 22.16]]).


Because as the Supreme Lord, He has nothing to do. But why He comes? In the Vedic literature you'll find, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. The description of the Supreme Brahman is described there, that, Upaniṣad... Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate: "The Supreme, the Absolute, He has nothing to do." He has nothing to do. Just like if we want to do, have something, we have to do. But there, the Absolute, He has nothing to do.
I may follow the leadership of my wife throughout my whole life. Now, if I say to my wife, "My dear, I am going to . . . for spiritual culture. Please give me leave," "Oh, how can you leave? You have got so many responsibilities. You have this and that. Oh . . . " So there is no pension. So ''Kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśāḥ''.


Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. Na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate. And there is nobody who is equal to Him, and nobody who is above Him. That means everyone is below Him. Nobody equal to Him and nobody above Him; that means everybody is below. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate: [[CC Madhya 13.65, purport]] "The Supreme has got many, manifold energies." Therefore everything is done, svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca.  
Therefore, if we become saner, then instead of following this material leadership, we may agree to follow the leadership of Kṛṣṇa. Just try to follow the leadership of Kṛṣṇa and make an experiment how you are becoming happy. We have just started this association, International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and trying to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you kindly come and take advantage of this opportunity, it will be beneficial for both of us, because we have come here with a mission, and if you cooperate, you will be benefited.


And His knowledge and His activities are svābhāvikī, natural, natural. Just like we have to acquire knowledge from a greater personality, but He has got all the natural, all knowledge. Just like Kṛṣṇa is speaking the Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna, but He was never taught of Bhagavad-gītā. I am speaking to you Bhagavad-gītā, just learning from my spiritual master. So I have to learn it, but when Kṛṣṇa spoke, He hadn't, had not to learn it. He had no business to learn it. Because svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. His knowledge is natural.
The ''Bhagavad-gītā'' is a standard literature. Most of you know this ''Bhagavad-gītā''. But generally, the ''Bhagavad-gītā'' is read very superficially, not very critically. We do not understand Kṛṣṇa, the author of ''Bhagavad-gītā'', neither we understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, although it is stated in the ''Bhagavad-gītā''.


So these things are to be understand. Then one who understands the science of Kṛṣṇa in truth, then the benefit is, the result is that he, he no more comes back to this world of darkness. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [[BG 4.9]] . Neither he has to undergo the repeated birth and death. We are just now undergoing the term of repeated birth and death under different species of life. So that thing will be stopped.
We read ''Bhagavad-gītā'' superficially, not very critically, neither there is any edition so far . . . of course, in Sanskrit there are many editions: annotation by Śrīdhara Svāmī, annotation by Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa, annotation by Viśvanātha Cakravartī, annotation by Śrī Rāmānujācārya. There are many great scholars. But we have no information of those in the Western countries. You have no information of those scholars.


So human, human mission, human life should be utilized for this purpose. This is the dharma. This is real, our engagement. We have diverted our engagement for satisfying our material needs. Oh, that is not the mission of human being. That is the mission of lower animals.
Ordinary person with some academic career, they think they are very learned, they can comment on ''Bhagavad-gītā''. Oh, that is not possible. That is not possible. The other day we have already discussed that ''Bhagavad-gītā'' can be understood by a person who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, nobody else. ''Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyaṁ hy etad uttamam'' ([[BG 4.3 (1972)|BG 4.3]]).


<div class="lec_verse">
So here is a chance. Now, Kṛṣṇa says that ''ye yathā māṁ prapadyante''. Now the proportionately, if you agree to follow the leadership of Kṛṣṇa, proportionately as you follow, so you become perfect. If you follow one percent, then you become one percent perfect. If you follow twenty-five percent, then you become twenty-five percent perfect. And if you follow cent percent, then you become cent percent. ''Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham'' ([[BG 4.11 (1972)|BG 4.11]]).
āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca<br />
sāmānyam etat paśubhiḥ narāṇām<br />
dharmo hi teṣām adhiko viśeṣo<br />
dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samānāḥ</div>


Kṛṣṇa does not interfere with your individual independence. Every living entity has got an independence, minute, because he is also spiritual atom. We are all spiritual atom. That atomic, spiritual atomic force . . . just like a material atomic force is so strong, so you can just imagine how strong is spiritual atom. In the modern age, the atomic age, the scientists have discovered the force, the power of material atom. But they have not yet known what is the force of spiritual atom. There is spiritual atom. We are spiritual atom.


This is the mission, that āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna. These are our material needs. The problem of eating, the problem of sleeping, or shelter, the problem of defense, and the problem of sense gratification. These four problems are common to the human being and to the animals. The animals have also got these problems, eating, sleeping, defending and, what is called? Sense gratification. We have got also those problems. So they are also trying to solve these problems and if we are also engaged in simply solving these problems, then what is the difference between the animals and the human being? The human being... The next line says dharmo hi teṣām adhiko viśeṣaḥ. The human being has got a special qualification by which he can develop the transcendental Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and if he does not do that, then he's in the category of the animals.
The atom is described in the Vedic literature, the form of the spirit which we are actually: ''keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca'' (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9). ''Keśāgra'' . . . ''Keśa'' means the hair, the upper portion of your hair. When it is divided into ten thousand part . . . and just imagine, that one part is the spiritual atom. It is so small, it is so minute, that it is not possible to see with our material eyes.


So the defect of modern civilization is that we are giving too much stress for simply for solving these problems: eating, sleeping, defending and sense gratification. But as spiritual beings, as spiritual living entities, we have got the necessity of getting out of this entanglement of repeated birth and death, and if we do not care for it, then we shall be missing the opportunity. And Lord Kṛṣṇa comes to teach us how you can utilize your human form of life for the ultimate goal of your life. This material, whole material creation is there just to give you a chance to have your things done nicely. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [[BG 8.19]] . This material creation is giving a chance. But even after getting the chance, and even after getting the supreme body of human life, we do not develop this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and just to get rid of this material entanglement, then we shall be missing the opportunity.
Even the material atom also we cannot see. When the material atoms are combined into six, then you can see floating in the air through the sunshine which is entering your room through the holes of a window. You can see some particles. That small particle, they are combination of six atoms. That particle, when it is divided into six, that becomes the atom. So you cannot see even the material atoms, and what to speak of the spiritual atom.


So everyone's duty is that he should take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness by engaging himself in this process of śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [[SB 7.5.23]] , chanting and hearing, the simple process. You have nothing to do. Simply if you give aural reception, that will clear everything within your mind, and you, you'll get enlightenment because Kṛṣṇa will help you. He's present within. You have simply to, I mean to say, spare a little time. You, you'll see actually. If you kindly spare a little time in this process which you have adopted here, you'll feel yourself... Nobody has to canvass you that oh, whether you are making your progress? No. You'll understand it. Because it is actual, you'll understand it.
When a dead man is there, the medical man or every scientist, everyone is sitting. How that spiritual atom is passed from this body, nobody can see. They can simply say: "Oh, now he is gone." Who is gone? Have you seen who is gone? "No." Then what you are seeing? "I am seeing this dead body." So whole life you have seen this dead body. If I cannot see at the present structure of my body even the spark, material atom, how we can see God, the Supreme Spirit?


Just like a hungry man. If he's given foodstuff, he knows how far he's satisfied. Nobody has to certify that "You are certified." He will say, "Yes, I am satisfied. I have had very good foodstuff." Similarly, this is the thing. If you kindly spare a little time, you'll feel yourself how much you are making progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and how much making progress in your human mission of life. So I shall request you that we are just trying to, just endeavor, our poor endeavor... It is, still our duty to do it. If you kindly take advantage of this opportunity, both, we shall be benefited. Then that is the process we have adopted here, the Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, and I invite you all to come and take part in it and make your life successful.
So we have to qualify ourselves. So that qualification is, here it is stated, ''ye yathā māṁ prapadyante''. If you try to surrender yourself into Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . just like Kṛṣṇa is canvassing, asking Arjuna, ''sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam'' ([[BG 18.66 (1972)|BG 18.66]]): "You just try to surrender unto Me, and I shall give you all protection." And just I described a few minutes before that Kṛṣṇa is seated along with you in the same tree of this body. He is just waiting for your voluntary looking unto Him. That's it. He does not press you. He gives you all instruction.


Thank you very much. Any questions? [break]
Just like Kṛṣṇa gave all instruction of ''Bhagavad-gītā'' to Arjuna, but at last, He asked him, "My dear Arjuna, I have given you all instruction. Whether you have understood it? And how you are going to follow? Have you decided to follow Me?"


You have to associate yourself with persons who are in that business. Then gradually you'll also develop the sense and you'll also become... So there is no cause of disappointment that because you have no taste for such things. So this is the chance. It is our duty to give chance everybody to have this opportunity because we have dedicated our life for this service. So we are ready. You take advantage of our humble service, and then you'll understand and you'll know. There will be no difficulty. Yes?
Just see. He does not say that, "I force you to follow." No. He asked him, "Now, have you decided to follow Me?" And He gives him the, I mean to say, full independence—''yathecchasi tathā kuru'' ([[BG 18.63 (1972)|BG 18.63]]): "Now I have given you all instruction. Now it is up to you. You can do whatever you like."


Guest: Swamiji, you mentioned about Kṛṣṇa consciousness...
So our position is always like that. Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, or His bona fide representatives who come here, they can force you to go back to Godhead, but they do not do that. They want your voluntary cooperation. Unless you are prepared to cooperate voluntarily, oh, there is no question of my improvement. So we must accept our voluntary cooperation with Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, or His representative who comes before you to canvass, "My dear sir, please be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Please look to the leadership of the Supreme Lord." Now it is up to you.


Prabhupāda: Yes.
Now, He says that "Actually they are following my leadership." Because they are servant, they are followers of leader. They are servant of some created leader materially. So that means there is a propensity, that intrinsic background of following some leader, is there. That you cannot avoid. That you cannot avoid. Mama ''vartmānuvartante manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ''. They have to . . . every man has to follow the same principle. He cannot go out of it. His constitutional position is to follow a leader. He cannot go out of it. Nobody can go out of it. He has to follow either A, B, C or D or anyone. He has to select.


Guest: Are you referring to self-realization when you mentioned that Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Just like I'll give you another example. According to ''Manu-saṁhitā'', our Vedic literature, the ''Manu-saṁhitā'' says, ''na striyaṁ svatantratām arhati'': "Women should not be given independence," or "Women are not independent." That is a, I mean, a truth, Vedic truth. Now, so far a girl is child, she is dependent on the father, and it is hoped . . . at least in India we have got this principle. When a girl is grown up, the father gives him . . . gives her in charity to a boy to protect her, protect her, give her protection. And similarly, when a woman is grown up, old enough, she becomes protected by the grown-up boys, children.


Prabhupāda: What is that?
So this Vedic truth that woman has no independence . . . she is always under the protection, either under the protection of the father or under the protection of the husband or under the protection of the grown-up sons. That is position. And woman becomes happy in that way. Those who are not following this principle, I think they are not happy. This Vedic principle is truth.


Guest: Are you referring to self-realization, cosmic consciousness?
So as the woman or the child requires the protection of somebody, similarly, by nature we are under the protection of some leader. But that supreme leadership is rested in the Supreme Lord. And when we do not accept the leadership of the Supreme, then we have to accept somebody else, A-B-C-D, as our leader, and they will misguide us. ''Andhā yathāndhair upanīya'' . . . how they are misguiding, just try to understand. How our leaders are misguiding us, just try to understand. In the ''Bhāgavata'' it is said:


Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa consciousness means cosmic consciousness. Kṛṣṇa... When we speak of Kṛṣṇa, you don't take any personal view. Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. So all-attraction is there in the cosmic. Cosmic consciousness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
:''na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ''
:''durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ''
:''andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās''
:''te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ''
:([[SB 7.5.31]])


Guest: Well, I believe that most of the westerners do not know the meaning of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
"People deluded by the material nature do not know what is the ultimate goal of life. The ultimate goal of life is Viṣṇu." Viṣṇu means self-realization, the supreme soul. Why they do not know it? Now, ''durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ'': "They have accepted this external, deluded nature as the goal of life." They want to be happy by adjustment of this material nature.


Prabhupāda: That we are explaining here.
This is ''durāśayā''. ''Durāśayā'' means . . . duḥ means a difficult, a far away. This hope will never be satisfied. They have made it a point to forget God for good, and they want to make it a point that "We shall be happy in this material world by adjustment of our scientific or so-called knowledge."


Guest: You have yet to explain that it's cosmic consciousness, self-realization.
And the leaders who are leading them in that way, what sort of leader they are? ''Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ'' ([[SB 7.5.31]]). ''Andha'', just like a blind man. Sometimes you see a blind man is in this side of the street. He is asking somebody, "Kindly take me to the other side." But if another blind man comes, "All right, I will help you," so what he will help him? The man who wants help to go to the other side, he is seeking for help, and another blind man comes, "All right, I shall help you." So that help is that in the middle of the street they will be smashed. Both of them will be smashed.


Prabhupāda: Yes. So we are explaining Kṛṣṇa consciousness here. And as you say, that most of the westerners, they do not know the meaning. So we are present here to explain the meaning. So that is our humble service. Because Kṛṣṇa and Bhagavad-gītā is very well known in the western countries, and there are so many editions and publication of Bhagavad-gītā, both in Europe and America and other parts of Asia. Kṛṣṇa is more or less well known. But actually, the science of Kṛṣṇa is not so well known. Therefore we have put up this association, International Association of Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness.
So similarly, our leadership is like that. Our leaders, they are compact by the laws of nature, and they are proclaiming that "I am leader." Just like in India or . . . the late Prime Minister, Shastri, oh, he was leader. He went to, I mean to say, Russia for making compromise with Pakistan. But he did not know that while signing the peace agreement he would be expired. ''Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ''; "They are tied hand and feet by the laws of nature; still, they are claiming that 'I am the leader.' "


Guest: I believe that most of the westerners read the Bhagavad-gītā, Upaniṣads...  
Suppose if I want to help you, just like the blind man. I must have eyes. Suppose your hands are tied up. If I want to help you, then my hands must be free. But if my hands are also tied up, how can I help you? It is not possible. So I must be a free man to help you. Your hands are tied up by the laws of nature; then I must be a free man. I must be free from the laws of nature; then I can help you.


Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
So Kṛṣṇa is free from the laws of nature. Therefore He can help you. He can, I mean to say, unbind your tightening. ''Tri-guṇamayī''. ''Tri-guṇamayī'' means the ''guṇa''. ''Guṇa'' means rope, and also the modes of nature. ''Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā'' ([[BG 7.14 (1972)|BG 7.14]]).


Guest: The Vedas.  
So we are all under the stringent laws of this material nature. So if we want to get free, we must accept a leader who is free from this material nature. So Kṛṣṇa is free. ''Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā''. The material nature is working under His direction. ''Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram'' ([[BG 9.10 (1972)|BG 9.10]]).


Prabhupāda: Yes.
You'll find in the ''Bhagavad-gītā''. Material nature is working under His direction. He is not under the direction of the material nature. Therefore He can be our leader, and nobody else can be leader.


Guest: I believe that would have been a greater understanding of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
So if you actually want . . . because by nature we have to follow some leadership, so if we actually want the leadership which will lead us to the perfect goal of life, then we have to follow Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. If you don't follow, that depends on our discretion. Just like Arjuna. He was asked by Kṛṣṇa, "Now, what you have decided? Are you going to follow Me? Oh, you can do whatever you like. I have told you everything."


Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I say Kṛṣṇa in conn... Because most of them are acquainted with the Bhagavad-gītā and the speaker of Bhagavad-gītā is Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is also well known to them. But actually what is Kṛṣṇa, the science of Kṛṣṇa, they do not know. So this humble attempt is to just to present the science of Kṛṣṇa to them. And I wish that they may take advantage of this opportunity. So any other questions?
So Kṛṣṇa is telling us everything in the ''Bhagavad-gītā''. Now it is up to us to accept His leadership or not. If we accept His leadership, then we are free from this material bondage, and if we do not accept, then we can do whatever we . . . Kṛṣṇa does not interfere with our independence. That is a fact.


Guest: Swamiji, may I ask you a question?
Thank you very much. Now if there is any question, you can ask. (break)


Prabhupāda: Yes.
You have any doubt in the supreme nature of Kṛṣṇa?


Guest: Do you teach self-realization?
Guest (1): I wish to understand.


Prabhupāda: Eh?
Prabhupāda: Uh?
 
Guest (1): I wish to understand.
 
Prabhupāda: That we are making discussion. That we are making discussion. Yes. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme by all stalwart past ācāryas. Just like Śaṅkarācārya, a great stalwart scholar. He also accepts Kṛṣṇa: ''sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ''. Oh, he accepts Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Lord. You will find in his annotation of ''Bhagavad-gītā''.
 
Similarly, Śrī Rāmānujācārya, he accepts. And now Lord Caitanya, He also preached this Kṛṣṇa philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And formerly also, great leaders like Vyāsadeva, Nārada, and even at the present moment all big leaders of India . . . I am speaking especially of India because this ''Bhagavad-gītā'' was first seen in India, in the Indian plain.
 
Of course, it is not meant for India; it is meant for everyone. Just like the sun rises in the east first, then comes to the west, but that does not mean east has the monopoly of the sun and not the west. Similarly, the sun of ''Bhagavad-gītā'' might have arisen in the land of India, but that does not mean that it is the monopoly of India. It is meant for everyone. It is meant for everyone. So it is an accepted authority. So, ''mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ'' ([[CC Madhya 17.186]]).
 
So we have to follow great personalities. Yes.
 
Guest (2): If Kṛṣṇa is the supreme consciousness, then why isn't anything we do or anyone we follow following or doing Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
 
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is supreme consciousness. That's all right. But you are not supreme consciousness. You have to follow the supreme consciousness.
 
Guest (2): But if He is supreme consciousness, everything I do is following that one supreme consciousness. There can be nothing else that exists.
 
Prabhupāda: No. No. No. We are not following the supreme consciousness. Then we'll have been on the same level. Just like your consciousness and my consciousness is different because we do not follow the supreme consciousness. Therefore your . . .
 
Guest (2): The supreme consciousness is all, isn't it?


Guest: Do you teach self-realization?
Prabhupāda: Supreme conscious, yes. Supreme . . . ah


Prabhupāda: Yes, this is self-realization.
Guest (2): Is all, all consciousness.


Guest: Do you initiate?
Prabhupāda: Consciousness is the same, as in the Supreme, so also in you, so also in me. The quality of the consciousness is the same. But your consciousness and my consciousness is different.


Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guest (2): But that's all part of the same supreme consciousness.


Guest: Do you initiate?
Prabhupāda: Qualitatively, the one, but at the present moment, because we are materially bound up, therefore we find so many different consciousness. Do you think that your consciousness and my consciousness is the same?


Prabhupāda: Yes. I initiate also. Well, this is the process of self-realization, to know...
Guest (2): Yes.


Guest: Then you are an authority on initiation?
Prabhupāda: How? Do you agree with me? Do I agree with you?


Prabhupāda: Yes, and, of course, I do not know whether I am authority, but my spiritual master has authorized me to do this.
Guest (2): Er . . . not sure we would.


Guest: That's, that's all right. That's sufficient. That's sufficient.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We do not agree. Therefore your consciousness, different—my consciousness, different. When we agree, then it is the same. When we come to the point of agreement, then it is the same.


Prabhupāda: I, I, I do not think myself an authority. I am just to serve the order of my spiritual master. That's all.
Guest (2): It's the same, even we disagree.


Guest: Yes. Very good. But I suppose you know that in the western countries lots have been initiated and have never had the, the chance to be initiated by the master in order to initiate others. Quite a few, they have been.
Prabhupāda: Eh?


Prabhupāda: Yes. Of course the, we, if we...
Guest (2): It's the same, even we disagree . . .


Guest: That's a responsibility in itself.
Prabhupāda: Disagreement . . .


Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes.
Guest (2): . . . because disagreement is a part of the same supreme . . . (indistinct)


Guest: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Then you mean to say disagreement, agreement, the same thing?


Prabhupāda: Yes. So any other question? That, that, that, I mean to say, authority, is very simple. It is not very difficult. Just like you'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā that self-realization, as far Bhagavad-gītā, was taught to Arjuna. Now, how Arjuna understood it, that is also mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. Simply if you try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as Arjuna understood it, then you also become self-realized. So it is not a very difficult job. Unfortunately, people apply their own scholastic ideas in a different way and they murder the whole thing. You see? The simple thing is that if we understand it as it is, then it is as simple as anything. But if you want to...
Guest (2): Yes.


Just like in our Bengal there is proverb, ghuriye nag nag naki.(?) Now, now, you are asking me... Just like sometimes we ask small child, "Where is your nose?" He says, "It is nose." "Where is your eye?" "It is eye." So that is a simple thing. But one child... Not child. One man is asked, "Where is your nose?" He says, "Oh, here is my nose." (laughter) "Here is my nose," this is simple thing. But one should show, "Oh, here is my nose." So Bhagavad-gītā is interpreted like that, "Here is my nose." Nobody shows that "Here is my nose." You see? So that is the difficulty. They have created difficult, create a situation of this Bhagavad-gītā under, I mean to say, catastrophe. So if you, any sincere student who will take Bhagavad-gītā as it is, this self-realization is as cheap as anything.
Prabhupāda: Then I cannot follow you.


Guest: Swamiji, I suppose (indistinct) of people realize.
Guest (2): That's what I'm trying to understand. The supreme consciousness is all consciousness, even disagreement.


Prabhupāda: No. It, simply, simply we have to hear it as it is. Don't try to interpret in a different way. The, the whole mischief is that everyone has got his own theosophy. And Bhagavad-gītā is a popular book, and he wants to prove his own philosophy through Bhagavad-gītā. Because he wants to be important man and he wants to show that "Here is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā," and they present some jugglery of words and mislead the people.
Prabhupāda: Supreme consciousness . . . just like you try to understand your consciousness. Are you conscious? You agree?


Just like I am repeatedly mentioned here that in our country Mahatma Gandhi, he had his philosophy of non-violence, and he wanted to prove non-violence from Bhagavad-gītā. But Bhagavad-gītā is spoken in the warfield. Bhagavad-gītā is spoken when Arjuna was in problem, whether to fight or not to fight. That is the, I mean the, background of Bhagavad-gītā. Now, if anyone wants to prove that Bhagava..., in Bhagavad-gītā there is non-violence, then you, you, you something else. Violence is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. So similarly, we should not try to under... Yes! We should not try to understand Bhagavad-gītā according to my viewpoint of view. I must understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is presented by Kṛṣṇa. Then it is (indistinct). Then it is (indistinct). (end)
Guest (2): Yes.


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Prabhupāda: Are you conscious what is going on in me? (break) (end)

Revision as of 03:29, 12 August 2023

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



660722BG.NY - July 22, 1966



Prabhupāda:

ye yathā māṁ prapadyante
tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham
mama vartmānuvartante
manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ
(BG 4.11)

Lord Kṛṣṇa says that, "Every man is following My path, indirectly or directly." The supreme position of the Lord is that He is in the supreme absolute position, and every other living being, they are all subordinate. In the Vedic Upaniṣad it is clearly stated, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām, eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13).

This is the natural law in any society, in any community, in any country, even in the animal society. If you go to the forest there are societies of different animal—elephant society, tiger society, deer society, jackal society, wolf society. Even in the birds, you'll find, the birds of the same feather flock together. This is the natural way. You'll find that all the pigeons, they flock together, not the crows and the pigeons flock together. The ducks, they flock together. Similarly, this is the natural way, and there . . . in every group there is a leader.

So the Supreme Lord, He is called in the Vedic literature that He is the supreme leader. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. Nitya means eternal, and nityānām, that means many other eternals. We are many other eternals. Eka, that one eternal . . . eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. There are two kinds of eternals. We living entities, we are also eternal, and the Supreme Lord, He is also eternal. So far eternity is concerned, both of us equal on the qualitative nature. He is eternal, and we are eternal. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha (Bs 5.1).

He is also all pleasure, and we are also all pleasure, because we are all parts and parcel of the same quality. So, but He is the leader. Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān: "That one is maintaining all these many's." We, the living entities, we are many's.

So our position is always subordinate. That is our natural constitutional position. Now, the Supreme Lord's position is the leadership, and our position is subordinate. Now, then what is our duty? Our duty is to follow the leader. And actually we are doing so. We have got . . . instead of . . . we have forgotten that the supreme leader is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but still, for our daily activities we create the leader. We accept some leader and follow his principles.

Just like you have elected your leader as President Johnson, the president of your state. He is supposed to be the leader of your nation, and he is asking you to go to the Vietnam and sacrifice your life. So you are following. So this is the natural position. Even if we do not accept God, if we do not accept the leadership of God, we have to select another leader. We cannot get rid of this principle, that we can live without leader. That is our constitutional position.

So the difficulty is that . . . our difficulty is that instead of following the supreme leader, we are creating by mental concoction some leader according to our material conception of life, and we are following. That is our position. So Lord Kṛṣṇa says:

ye yathā māṁ prapadyante
tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham
mama vartmānuvartante
manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ
(BG 4.11)

People are actually following the same principle, but the difficulty is that in our this position of lower nature we are following in the manner which will not make us happy and satisfied. Because we are not following the supreme leader, the difficulty. By constitutional position we are to follow a leader, but because we are misled, because we are deluded to follow a leader which is not perfect, therefore our position is always unhappy in spite of following the leadership of a concocted nature.

Therefore the best thing will be to get rid of this concocted position and follow the supreme leader. That is the highest perfection. Just try to understand that I cannot avoid following someone's leadership. That is not possible. Can anyone say that, "We can avoid this"? No. We cannot avoid. Even if we don't accept the leadership of God, we have to accept some other leaders. That is our position. We cannot avoid it.

So there is a very nice verse in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. A brāhmin, he was a family man, just like worldly man, as we are. Now, brāhmins are generally expected to be highly learned, and he was very learned man in Vedic literature. And when he came to his consciousness by reading all this Vedic literature, that "Although I am following the leadership, why I am not happy? Why I am not happy?" . . . this question should arise in the sane human mind. One should think that, "I am following the leadership of somebody, according to my position and according to my circumstances. But still, I am not happy. Why?"

Why we select one leader? The leader should be such a leader that they shall . . . he shall make happy and prosperous persons who follow him. That is the question of leadership. But actually, if we think in sober mind and cool head, we can understand that although we are following leadership, may be whatever he may be, still, we are not happy. Now, the brāhmin concluded that, "This following leadership is the following leadership of my lust." I select one leader according to my lust. Just like in political parties there are many leaders, but I like the some particular type of political pursuit—someone likes Democratic political pursuit; someone likes Congress political pursuit; someone likes Communist political pursuit. So we have got different desires.

So practically, if we study very minutely, then we are not following the leadership but we are following our particular lust. I have got a particular lust within me, and when I find somebody corroborating with that particular lust, oh, I accept him, that leader. That is my position. Therefore I do not follow anyone's leadership, but I follow my own leadership. That is the lust. I want to do . . . I like to do something, and if somebody says: "Oh, yes, it is very nice," "Oh, you are my leader. If you confirm my lust, then you are my leader." That is the material leadership.

But the Supreme Lord is not like such . . . He is not such a leader. He is not going to follow your lust. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find that the Supreme Lord says in the Eighteenth Chapter:

sarva-dharmān parityajya
mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja
ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo
mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ
(BG 18.66)

He says: "My dear Arjuna, I have spoken to you all about Bhagavad-gītā. I do not know whether you have understood the whole thing or not, but because you are My friend and I love you and you love Me, I say you the most confidential thing to you. And what is that? You give up everything and just follow Me. You just give up all your concocted things in the mind and just become Kṛṣṇa conscious."

"Oh, I shall give up everything and simply I shall follow You?" "Yes." "Oh, how can I do? I have got so many department of knowledge and department of things. How can I?" No. He says, mā śucaḥ: "Don't hesitate." Then what will be the result? The result will be ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.6): "I shall deliver you from all reactions of your sinful acts."

You know, of course, according to Vedic literature . . . and I don't say about the Vedic literature. That is the injunction of every scripture, either Bible, Quran or any religious scripture, that we suffer due to our sinful actions. And our sinful actions are due to our ignorance. This is the cause.

Now, you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā:

teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ
bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam
buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ
yena mām upayānti te
(BG 10.10)

"Any person who is devoutedly is attached to Me and is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious with love and faith, unto him, I give dictation in such a way that he will come to Me." "He will come to Me." How He will give me dictation? Oh, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61): "The Supreme Lord, by His plenary portion, He is situated within your heart." Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati, that we individual soul and the Supreme Soul, both of them are sitting in this tree of body.

That is the Vedic injunction. The Veda says that two birds, just like friends, they are sitting on the same tree. One bird is eating the fruit of the tree, and the other bird is not eating the fruit but is simply observing the activities of the other bird. This description we get from Vedic literature.

The bird which is not eating the fruit of the tree, he is the Supersoul. And the bird which is eating the fruit of the tree, he is the soul, individual soul. That is we are. We are sitting in this tree of body, and we are eating. This body means every one of us has got a particular body for particular type of distress or enjoyment. Every living being is responsible for his past act, and he gets a body, either human body or animal body, American body or Indian body or African body. There are different kinds of . . . I have several times repeated that 8,400,000's of different bodies.

So living entity is . . . according to his work, he is wandering in this circle in the cycle of different species of life. But the Supreme Lord, He is so kind and so friendly with us that He is also with us. Suppose I am sitting in this bird. As soon as I fly to another . . . I am sitting in this tree, and as soon as I fly to another tree, the other bird, He also follows me. He also follows me, and sits again in that tree. He is so friendly.

Just imagine how much kind and how much friendly is the Lord. He is always trying to call me back again to Him. We are trying to noncooperate with Him. We are trying to noncooperate, and He is trying to cooperate. He is sitting with me in the same branch, He is witnessing, He is observing, and He is waiting, simply waiting when we shall turn my face, when I shall turn my face towards Him. That is the whole thing.

So here Bhagavad-gītā, Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, says, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante. He is waiting, waiting when you shall turn, when I shall turn my face towards Him. That's all. He is waiting. Just like . . . just you can imagine, just like a father and a rebelled child or insane child. Those who have got . . . of course, you are all young men here. Those who are elderly person, they have got experience. If their sons go wrong, how much they are anxious. How much the father is anxious to get his son back again. Back again. That is the natural instinct.

And wherefrom this instinct comes? This instinct comes from the Supreme, because in the Vedānta-sūtra you will find that everything, whatever you are finding in this material world or spiritual world, everything, that has come from the Supreme. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1): "He is the supreme source, fountainhead of everything."

So similarly, whatever we see, paternal affection, conjugal love, friendship or master and servant . . . there are so many things we are related in this material world. We must always know that all these sentiments, they are coming from the Supreme. So here the paternal affection which we see here or the conjugal love which we see here, that is simply a perverted reflection of the Supreme.

So you just . . . if we can study this material relationship between one living being to another living being, then if . . . a sober student, a philosophical-minded student, can understand what is our relation with God. It is not very difficult to understand.

Now here Kṛṣṇa says, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante. He is looking after always, "When the living entity shall turn his face towards Me?" And as we turn our face towards Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Lord, He also responds in proportionately. He also responds proportionately. It is not difficult.

Somebody says: "Can we see God?" Yes, you can see God. But how much prapatti? How much you have surrendered to God? Surrender to God . . . how much qualification you have acquired for seeing God? Seeing God is not very difficult, but at the same time it is very difficult. Just like if I want to see President Johnson, if I am unknown to him, oh, I will have to take so many formalities. I will have to write to his secretary, and the secretary will give me some time or may not give me some time. So many things. But if you are personally known to President Johnson, you are intimately thick and thin with him, and as soon as you call him, "Mr. Johnson, I want to see you," "Yes, you can come."

So it depends on the thick-and-thin–ship of your relations with Supreme Lord. If you can establish your relationship with the Supreme Lord in love . . . the Lord does not require our cooperation. He is full in Himself. He does not require my service, but still, if you love Him, then He reciprocates. So our reciprocation with the Lord depends on the proportion of our love, love of Godhead. This love of Godhead can be attained by Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

So ye yathā māṁ prapadyante. A proportionately, as I surrender unto the Supreme Lord . . . we must always know that our background of relationship is that we are subordinate and He is great. God is great. We cannot be equal with Him. We have to follow. He is the supreme leader. Therefore Lord Kṛṣṇa says that, "You give up everything." He is trying to give you leadership. He is prepared to give you all leadership, provided you are prepared to follow His leadership. That's all. Reciprocation. And in proportionately, proportionately as you accept His leadership, He also responds reciprocally. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante. As you . . .

So everything depends on me. I can see God. Just like I am seeing you face to face, you are seeing me face to face, similarly, you can see Kṛṣṇa face to face. Just like Arjuna saw face to face. Why? Because the relationship was so nice that they were in friendly relation. So seeing of God is not very difficult. Simply we have to acquire that qualification. In the Brahma-saṁhitā—this is another Vedic literature—it is said:

premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena
santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti
yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya-guṇa-svarūpaṁ
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
(Bs 5.38)

Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena. Now, we have to prepare our eyes to see God. That's all. Just like we are seeing here a thing, say, suppose a motorcar. A layman is seeing, and another, mechanic, who knows how the motorcar is running, what are the machinery, how it is fitted, he is also seeing. So this layman seeing and the expert seeing is different.

The expert mechanic, he can see the car, who has made it, who is the maker and how it is running, and so many things he can see. And layman, he can see just a car. So similarly, to see everything . . . just like we are seeing the sun, a child is seeing the sun and a scientist, astronomer, is also seeing the sun. So both seeing are not the same.

So seeing God is not difficult, but we have to prepare our eyes. And how that eyes . . . how that eye is prepared, that is stated in the Vedic literature, that if you kindly smear your eyeballs with the ointment of love. There is an ointment. Of course, it is not available in the drug shop. (laughter) You have to prepare that ointment. You have to prepare that eye ointment, love, love ointment. And if you smear with that love ointment your eyes, then you can see Kṛṣṇa always.

premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena
santaḥ sadaiva . . .
(Bs 5.38)

Sadaiva means always. Always. Not a single moment you are without Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, do you think that . . .

Of course, in India we have got many sages, they are living in the jungle, aloof from human society, without any fear, without any caring the animals or for life, for fooding. How? Because he is seeing always Kṛṣṇa there, so he has no fear. He has no fear. He is enjoying life there. There are many instances. In our line, one Rūpa Gosvāmī . . . Rūpa Gosvāmī, he was the prime minister of the then government.

Five hundred years before, India was under the Pathan rule, Bengal, and there was a king whose name was Nawab Hussain Shah. Nawab Hussain Shah's prime minister was Sākara Mallika. That Sākara Mallika later on became a great devotee of Lord Caitanya, and his name was transformed into Rūpa Gosvāmī.

So they were coming from very aristocratic family, but they gave up everything and lived at Vṛndāvana, eating only dry bread and whatever nonsense they . . . they were very rich men, but still, how they could live in such a way? That is described that tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat: "They gave up all aristocratic association just like insignificant." And:

tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat
bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau
(Śrī Śrī Ṣaḍ Gosvāmy Aṣṭaka 4)

"And they adopted life of mendicant just to show mercy to the fallen souls." But how they lived?

gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī-kallola-magnau sadā
vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau
(Śrī Śrī Ṣaḍ Gosvāmy Aṣṭaka 4)

"They were merged in the ocean of love of Kṛṣṇa, and they lived so happily." That is . . . there is a position like that, that you can forget all these material comforts. But there is no comfort in the material life. It is so-called. It is simply a delusion. We are thinking that we are comfortable. And suppose we are comfortable. How long you shall live in that comfort? That is limited. Either the comfort will leave you or you have to leave the comfort. It may be that your position . . .

The comfortable position which you have created by your monetary strength may be that your monetary strength may go down and you become a pauper. So comfort leaves you. Or if you continue . . . even if you continue a comfortable life, then death comes and you leave the comfortable. You go away. So there will be separation, certainly.

Therefore the brāhmin of whose story I was telling, he, when, after going through this Vedic literature, he understood that "I am following the leadership wrongly of my lust. I am not following the leadership of anyone else. It is false. And although I am accepting somebody as my leader, but actually I accept somebody as my leader who corroborates with my lust. Therefore lust created by me is my leader." So he said, kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśāḥ (CC Madhya 22.16): "Oh, I have followed the leadership of my lust, and in doing so, I am ashamed to, I mean to say, accept it. I agree to accept it, that I have done so many nonsense by the dictation of my lust." Kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśāḥ.

When a person is lustful, then he can do any nonsense thing. Lust is so strong. He can do any nonsense. Durnideśāḥ. Durnideśāḥ means the direction which I should not have followed, but being, I mean to say, pressed by my lust, even I followed which I should not have followed.

So he is just studying his own life, that "So far I have followed the leadership of my lust, but the result is that my lust is not satisfied." Teṣāṁ na trapā nopaśāntiḥ. Lust will never be satisfied. "My lust is never satisfied, neither he is giving me release of this slavery of my lust." So he says: "My dear Lord, Kṛṣṇa, I have understood that I have followed the leadership of my lust so long, but the result is that the leader whom I have followed, neither he is satisfied, neither I am satisfied." Neither the leader is satisfied . . .

Just like, I'll give you a concrete example. In India, I know, Mahatma Gandhi was the leader. But you know that at the last stage he was killed. That means the leader could not satisfy the public, neither public was satisfied with the leader. This is the material leadership. Nobody can . . . just like we see so many criticisms of President Johnson. The other day I was seeing in the paper, they have given some caricature. So this is going on. Nobody is satisfied. Kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśāḥ (CC Madhya 22.16).

I may follow the leadership of my wife throughout my whole life. Now, if I say to my wife, "My dear, I am going to . . . for spiritual culture. Please give me leave," "Oh, how can you leave? You have got so many responsibilities. You have this and that. Oh . . . " So there is no pension. So Kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśāḥ.

Therefore, if we become saner, then instead of following this material leadership, we may agree to follow the leadership of Kṛṣṇa. Just try to follow the leadership of Kṛṣṇa and make an experiment how you are becoming happy. We have just started this association, International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and trying to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you kindly come and take advantage of this opportunity, it will be beneficial for both of us, because we have come here with a mission, and if you cooperate, you will be benefited.

The Bhagavad-gītā is a standard literature. Most of you know this Bhagavad-gītā. But generally, the Bhagavad-gītā is read very superficially, not very critically. We do not understand Kṛṣṇa, the author of Bhagavad-gītā, neither we understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, although it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.

We read Bhagavad-gītā superficially, not very critically, neither there is any edition so far . . . of course, in Sanskrit there are many editions: annotation by Śrīdhara Svāmī, annotation by Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa, annotation by Viśvanātha Cakravartī, annotation by Śrī Rāmānujācārya. There are many great scholars. But we have no information of those in the Western countries. You have no information of those scholars.

Ordinary person with some academic career, they think they are very learned, they can comment on Bhagavad-gītā. Oh, that is not possible. That is not possible. The other day we have already discussed that Bhagavad-gītā can be understood by a person who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, nobody else. Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyaṁ hy etad uttamam (BG 4.3).

So here is a chance. Now, Kṛṣṇa says that ye yathā māṁ prapadyante. Now the proportionately, if you agree to follow the leadership of Kṛṣṇa, proportionately as you follow, so you become perfect. If you follow one percent, then you become one percent perfect. If you follow twenty-five percent, then you become twenty-five percent perfect. And if you follow cent percent, then you become cent percent. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11).

Kṛṣṇa does not interfere with your individual independence. Every living entity has got an independence, minute, because he is also spiritual atom. We are all spiritual atom. That atomic, spiritual atomic force . . . just like a material atomic force is so strong, so you can just imagine how strong is spiritual atom. In the modern age, the atomic age, the scientists have discovered the force, the power of material atom. But they have not yet known what is the force of spiritual atom. There is spiritual atom. We are spiritual atom.

The atom is described in the Vedic literature, the form of the spirit which we are actually: keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9). Keśāgra . . . Keśa means the hair, the upper portion of your hair. When it is divided into ten thousand part . . . and just imagine, that one part is the spiritual atom. It is so small, it is so minute, that it is not possible to see with our material eyes.

Even the material atom also we cannot see. When the material atoms are combined into six, then you can see floating in the air through the sunshine which is entering your room through the holes of a window. You can see some particles. That small particle, they are combination of six atoms. That particle, when it is divided into six, that becomes the atom. So you cannot see even the material atoms, and what to speak of the spiritual atom.

When a dead man is there, the medical man or every scientist, everyone is sitting. How that spiritual atom is passed from this body, nobody can see. They can simply say: "Oh, now he is gone." Who is gone? Have you seen who is gone? "No." Then what you are seeing? "I am seeing this dead body." So whole life you have seen this dead body. If I cannot see at the present structure of my body even the spark, material atom, how we can see God, the Supreme Spirit?

So we have to qualify ourselves. So that qualification is, here it is stated, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante. If you try to surrender yourself into Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . just like Kṛṣṇa is canvassing, asking Arjuna, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66): "You just try to surrender unto Me, and I shall give you all protection." And just I described a few minutes before that Kṛṣṇa is seated along with you in the same tree of this body. He is just waiting for your voluntary looking unto Him. That's it. He does not press you. He gives you all instruction.

Just like Kṛṣṇa gave all instruction of Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna, but at last, He asked him, "My dear Arjuna, I have given you all instruction. Whether you have understood it? And how you are going to follow? Have you decided to follow Me?"

Just see. He does not say that, "I force you to follow." No. He asked him, "Now, have you decided to follow Me?" And He gives him the, I mean to say, full independence—yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63): "Now I have given you all instruction. Now it is up to you. You can do whatever you like."

So our position is always like that. Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, or His bona fide representatives who come here, they can force you to go back to Godhead, but they do not do that. They want your voluntary cooperation. Unless you are prepared to cooperate voluntarily, oh, there is no question of my improvement. So we must accept our voluntary cooperation with Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, or His representative who comes before you to canvass, "My dear sir, please be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Please look to the leadership of the Supreme Lord." Now it is up to you.

Now, He says that "Actually they are following my leadership." Because they are servant, they are followers of leader. They are servant of some created leader materially. So that means there is a propensity, that intrinsic background of following some leader, is there. That you cannot avoid. That you cannot avoid. Mama vartmānuvartante manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ. They have to . . . every man has to follow the same principle. He cannot go out of it. His constitutional position is to follow a leader. He cannot go out of it. Nobody can go out of it. He has to follow either A, B, C or D or anyone. He has to select.

Just like I'll give you another example. According to Manu-saṁhitā, our Vedic literature, the Manu-saṁhitā says, na striyaṁ svatantratām arhati: "Women should not be given independence," or "Women are not independent." That is a, I mean, a truth, Vedic truth. Now, so far a girl is child, she is dependent on the father, and it is hoped . . . at least in India we have got this principle. When a girl is grown up, the father gives him . . . gives her in charity to a boy to protect her, protect her, give her protection. And similarly, when a woman is grown up, old enough, she becomes protected by the grown-up boys, children.

So this Vedic truth that woman has no independence . . . she is always under the protection, either under the protection of the father or under the protection of the husband or under the protection of the grown-up sons. That is position. And woman becomes happy in that way. Those who are not following this principle, I think they are not happy. This Vedic principle is truth.

So as the woman or the child requires the protection of somebody, similarly, by nature we are under the protection of some leader. But that supreme leadership is rested in the Supreme Lord. And when we do not accept the leadership of the Supreme, then we have to accept somebody else, A-B-C-D, as our leader, and they will misguide us. Andhā yathāndhair upanīya . . . how they are misguiding, just try to understand. How our leaders are misguiding us, just try to understand. In the Bhāgavata it is said:

na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ
durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ
andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās
te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ
(SB 7.5.31)

"People deluded by the material nature do not know what is the ultimate goal of life. The ultimate goal of life is Viṣṇu." Viṣṇu means self-realization, the supreme soul. Why they do not know it? Now, durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ: "They have accepted this external, deluded nature as the goal of life." They want to be happy by adjustment of this material nature.

This is durāśayā. Durāśayā means . . . duḥ means a difficult, a far away. This hope will never be satisfied. They have made it a point to forget God for good, and they want to make it a point that "We shall be happy in this material world by adjustment of our scientific or so-called knowledge."

And the leaders who are leading them in that way, what sort of leader they are? Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Andha, just like a blind man. Sometimes you see a blind man is in this side of the street. He is asking somebody, "Kindly take me to the other side." But if another blind man comes, "All right, I will help you," so what he will help him? The man who wants help to go to the other side, he is seeking for help, and another blind man comes, "All right, I shall help you." So that help is that in the middle of the street they will be smashed. Both of them will be smashed.

So similarly, our leadership is like that. Our leaders, they are compact by the laws of nature, and they are proclaiming that "I am leader." Just like in India or . . . the late Prime Minister, Shastri, oh, he was leader. He went to, I mean to say, Russia for making compromise with Pakistan. But he did not know that while signing the peace agreement he would be expired. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ; "They are tied hand and feet by the laws of nature; still, they are claiming that 'I am the leader.' "

Suppose if I want to help you, just like the blind man. I must have eyes. Suppose your hands are tied up. If I want to help you, then my hands must be free. But if my hands are also tied up, how can I help you? It is not possible. So I must be a free man to help you. Your hands are tied up by the laws of nature; then I must be a free man. I must be free from the laws of nature; then I can help you.

So Kṛṣṇa is free from the laws of nature. Therefore He can help you. He can, I mean to say, unbind your tightening. Tri-guṇamayī. Tri-guṇamayī means the guṇa. Guṇa means rope, and also the modes of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14).

So we are all under the stringent laws of this material nature. So if we want to get free, we must accept a leader who is free from this material nature. So Kṛṣṇa is free. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. The material nature is working under His direction. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10).

You'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā. Material nature is working under His direction. He is not under the direction of the material nature. Therefore He can be our leader, and nobody else can be leader.

So if you actually want . . . because by nature we have to follow some leadership, so if we actually want the leadership which will lead us to the perfect goal of life, then we have to follow Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. If you don't follow, that depends on our discretion. Just like Arjuna. He was asked by Kṛṣṇa, "Now, what you have decided? Are you going to follow Me? Oh, you can do whatever you like. I have told you everything."

So Kṛṣṇa is telling us everything in the Bhagavad-gītā. Now it is up to us to accept His leadership or not. If we accept His leadership, then we are free from this material bondage, and if we do not accept, then we can do whatever we . . . Kṛṣṇa does not interfere with our independence. That is a fact.

Thank you very much. Now if there is any question, you can ask. (break)

You have any doubt in the supreme nature of Kṛṣṇa?

Guest (1): I wish to understand.

Prabhupāda: Uh?

Guest (1): I wish to understand.

Prabhupāda: That we are making discussion. That we are making discussion. Yes. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme by all stalwart past ācāryas. Just like Śaṅkarācārya, a great stalwart scholar. He also accepts Kṛṣṇa: sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ. Oh, he accepts Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Lord. You will find in his annotation of Bhagavad-gītā.

Similarly, Śrī Rāmānujācārya, he accepts. And now Lord Caitanya, He also preached this Kṛṣṇa philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And formerly also, great leaders like Vyāsadeva, Nārada, and even at the present moment all big leaders of India . . . I am speaking especially of India because this Bhagavad-gītā was first seen in India, in the Indian plain.

Of course, it is not meant for India; it is meant for everyone. Just like the sun rises in the east first, then comes to the west, but that does not mean east has the monopoly of the sun and not the west. Similarly, the sun of Bhagavad-gītā might have arisen in the land of India, but that does not mean that it is the monopoly of India. It is meant for everyone. It is meant for everyone. So it is an accepted authority. So, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186).

So we have to follow great personalities. Yes.

Guest (2): If Kṛṣṇa is the supreme consciousness, then why isn't anything we do or anyone we follow following or doing Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is supreme consciousness. That's all right. But you are not supreme consciousness. You have to follow the supreme consciousness.

Guest (2): But if He is supreme consciousness, everything I do is following that one supreme consciousness. There can be nothing else that exists.

Prabhupāda: No. No. No. We are not following the supreme consciousness. Then we'll have been on the same level. Just like your consciousness and my consciousness is different because we do not follow the supreme consciousness. Therefore your . . .

Guest (2): The supreme consciousness is all, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Supreme conscious, yes. Supreme . . . ah

Guest (2): Is all, all consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Consciousness is the same, as in the Supreme, so also in you, so also in me. The quality of the consciousness is the same. But your consciousness and my consciousness is different.

Guest (2): But that's all part of the same supreme consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Qualitatively, the one, but at the present moment, because we are materially bound up, therefore we find so many different consciousness. Do you think that your consciousness and my consciousness is the same?

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: How? Do you agree with me? Do I agree with you?

Guest (2): Er . . . not sure we would.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We do not agree. Therefore your consciousness, different—my consciousness, different. When we agree, then it is the same. When we come to the point of agreement, then it is the same.

Guest (2): It's the same, even we disagree.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (2): It's the same, even we disagree . . .

Prabhupāda: Disagreement . . .

Guest (2): . . . because disagreement is a part of the same supreme . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Then you mean to say disagreement, agreement, the same thing?

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then I cannot follow you.

Guest (2): That's what I'm trying to understand. The supreme consciousness is all consciousness, even disagreement.

Prabhupāda: Supreme consciousness . . . just like you try to understand your consciousness. Are you conscious? You agree?

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Are you conscious what is going on in me? (break) (end)

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