740213 - Conversation A - Vrndavana
Guru dāsa: I came back a little ahead because they wanted to make sure Pālikā was all right.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guru dāsa: I came back a little ahead because they wanted to make sure Pālikā was all right.
Prabhupāda: How many of you went?
Guru dāsa: Most everyone, about twenty-five.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Guru dāsa: At first they went, (indistinct) Kāliya, that Kāliya tree, and then Madana-mohana, new and old, and then to the samādhi, (indistinct) samādhi, and then I left (indistinct). Dr. Kapoor came this morning?
Devotee: No.
Guru dāsa: No?
Devotee: I wasn't here. I went to sleep for a few minutes.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. You have come from where?
Guest (1): Just now from the Hanumān Mandir, just down the road there, not far, but I'm, we're all from America.
Prabhupāda: Here you are remaining there?
Guest: We live there during the day, and at night we stay at the Jaipuria Bhavan(?), a guesthouse just down (indistinct).
Devotee: He's living (indistinct) .
Guest: Nim Karoli Baba. We were just now with Nim Karoli, taking darśana of Baba Nim Karoli.
Prabhupāda: Nim Karoli?
Guest: Nim Karoli. And he asked us to come here to this place and ask... He requested a kīrtana at the temple. He would like some of the people here to come and sing a kīrtana , if you, if you, if you wish.
Prabhupāda: Kīrtana we hold here. If we have to go individually everyone's house, how it is possible?
Guest: I, I don't know. I'm just... He asked me to come and request it, so...
Prabhupāda: We are holding kīrtana here, morning and evening if one is interested.
Guest (2): There are about thirty Westerners there.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest (2): We have thirty Westerners there, that everyday we go to a Mahārāja's darśana.
Prabhupāda: Thirty Westerners?
Guest (1): Yes, that's right.
Prabhupāda: Oh. That, I have no objection, (indistinct) those who are organizing. You are also staying?
Guest (2): Yes.
Guest (1): The three of us came. He sent three of us to ask.
Guru dāsa: Do you have any, any other questions?
Guest (1): No, that's all. That just explains our presence here at the moment.
Guru dāsa: You don't have to explain your presence in (indistinct).
Guest (1): Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Where is the Deity?
Devotee: Taken on saṅkīrtana.
Prabhupāda: Take your time and...
Devotee: Saṅkīrtana , when you're able.
Guru dāsa: She (Guest 3) was attending all the lectures at the pandal in Delhi.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen her.
Guru dāsa: And Philadelphia also.
Prabhupāda: So, you understand our philosophy?
Guest (3): Understand...?
Prabhupāda: Our philosophy?
Guest (1): Philosophy.
Guest (3): Yes, I do. I think I do. (laughs) I was in New York at Hare Kṛṣṇa (indistinct) time, and we have a temple in our apartment, picture of the Deities.
Prabhupāda: Where?
Guest (3): Philadelphia.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Guest (3): And we do the āratik and read all your books.
Prabhupāda: Which book?
Guest (3): Śrī Īśopaniṣad, Lord Caitanya, Kṛṣṇa book, (indistinct).
Guru dāsa: Prabhupāda's going to put out a book called Thus They Spoke, with all the philosophers and refute them by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Refute them all (indistinct).
Guest (1): Different schools of philosophy.
Guru dāsa: Yeah. Especially attacking Darwin.
Guest (1): Darwinism. Yes, by all means. That's good.
Guru dāsa: They tried, but they weren't, they weren't God conscious. They were (indistinct).
Hayagrīva: The philosophers, you know, they were just men trying to figure, figure it out with their minds.
Prabhupāda: They are all, so far we have studied all these philosophers, they (indistinct). They are lacking in knowledge. The main difference is that they consider the body as the self, and on that wrong basis they theorize (indistinct). If your basic standing is wrong, then how you can deliver the right? Therefore in Bhāgavata, Śrīmad Bhāgavata, it is said that yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ: SB 10.84.13 "Anyone who considers this body as his self is no better than the ass and the cow." What is your philosophy? You consider this body as the self?
Guest (1): I... Oh, no.
Prabhupāda: You?
Guest (2): No.
Prabhupāda: Very good. So we begin by (indistinct)?
Śyāmasundara: Uh, from the Rādhā Dāmodara. I don't know.
Guru dāsa: I've got three keys to that room open.
Śyāmasundara: Perhaps Subala has already made arrangements.
Prabhupāda: So, what is your philosophy?
Guest (1): My philosophy?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): The body is not the self. The self, or the ātmān, is the one absolute existence, but is has a delusive power whereby...
Prabhupāda: Who is that God? Delusive power?
Guest (1): God, or...
Devotee: God?
Guest (1): ...the māyā, the māyā of God makes, makes a man identify himself with his body, but it is, that's an illusion, and it's God's play that sometimes..., it's God's play that sometimes a man ignorantly identifies himself with the body, and through God's grace the bonds of ignorance are..., he is released from the bonds of ignorance through God's grace.
Prabhupāda: By God's grace, what happens?
Guest (1): One cannot... One achieves, one attains love for God, pure love. And, uh, by loving God, one, one, uh, one's..., one no longer identifies himself with his body.
Prabhupāda: So result of loving God, what it is?
Guest (1): Without loving God?
Prabhupāda: No.
Devotee: Result.
Prabhupāda: Result is what?
Guest (1): Of loving God? Yes.
Prabhupāda: What will come?
Guest (1): Is union with God. Union with God.
Devotee: What is that union?
Guest (1): What is union? Union, I think it, it's called yoga, or it's samādhi . I don't really know so much about it. Just what I've read.
Prabhupāda: Now what is the name, what you expressed by union? Just like you are there; I am here. You speak of union. What is the form of unity?
Guest (1): What is the form of unity?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): My understanding is that, that, um, the spirit, God, the Supreme Spirit, is beyond form, but yet through loving...
Prabhupāda: Beyond form.
Guest (1): ...through loving the form of God... It has form and yet it's formless. It's both..., has form and formless.
Prabhupāda: What is that formlessness, and what is that form?
Guest (1): That I can't say. What do I know about these things? My own knowledge is just very slight.
Prabhupāda: You are not learning there, where you are staying?
Guest (1): I'm learning. I'm learning love. It's, Mahārāja..., this Nim Karoli Baba, has told us that love, love of God is the highest.
Prabhupāda: But love, if you have no form where to love? The air?
Guest (1): You love the form, it's true. You have bhakti, you love the form of God.
Prabhupāda: But you said it's formless.
Guest (1): Ah, yes. Well, it's, uh, that, I've read the...
Prabhupāda: How it is? How, if is formless, how you can love, enjoy?
Guest (1): You can't love the formless, it's true.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Fictitious love. Why don't you ask this intelligent question? If you say formless, then where is the love?
Guest (1): He doesn't teach the formless. That was my own view, but that is not anything that he's ever taught me.
Prabhupāda: What does he teach?
Guest (1): He said...
Prabhupāda: He teaches form?
Guest (1): He says that... Yes. He is a great bhakta of Hanumānji.
Prabhupāda: Who is Hanumān?
Guest (1): Hanumān is the breath of Rāma.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest (1): The breath of Rāma, svasa. Rāma-ke-svasa , breath of Rāma.
Prabhupāda: Breath?
Guest (1): The breath. Hanumān was the... Rāma, Rāma once asked Hanumān, "What do you see? How do you see Me?" and Hanumān answered, "When I know who I am, You and I are one, and when I forget who I am, then I serve you."
Prabhupāda: That's so nonsense.
Guest (1): Nonsense? Well, perhaps that's true. I don't know...
Guru dāsa: When you remember who you are you serve, and when you forget who you are, you think you're one with God. Just like suppose you sat in Nam Karoli's chair, just forgetting who you are, that his chela, his disciple, I'm Nam Karoli.
Guest (1): Nim Karoli.
Guru dāsa: Nim Karoli. Sorry. Similarly, when we forget who we are, we think we're one with God, but when we remember, we're His bhakta , we're His servant.
Guest (1): Yes, that's also true. It's a fact.
Guru dāsa: When Hanumān, he's a great bhakta. We should follow in his footsteps. "One who says he is My devotee, he is not My devotee. One who says he is a devotee of My devotee, he is My devotee." Very humble. Then we can make advancement CC Madhya 13.80 .
Guest (1): Mahārāja is teaching—you asked his teaching—these things are the same really, I, things that he's told me. But he said that the whole universe was God, and that you should never hurt anyone, that you should serve...
Prabhupāda: How you can serve whole universe?
Guest (1): I beg your pardon.
Prabhupāda: How you can serve whole universe?
Guest (1): How can you serve the whole universe?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): You love the beings that you find yourself...
Prabhupāda: You love? To whom you love?
Guest (1): Whoever you're with.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest (1): Whatever, whatever...
Prabhupāda: That is... Suppose you love me. You love the whole universe? Why this false impression?
Guest (1): Well certainly every being in the universe is a part of me.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct). You can place your love to a particular person or particular community.
Guest (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Does it mean you love the whole universe?
Guest (1): No.
Prabhupāda: Just like, just like nationalism. You are American?
Guest (1: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So you have got your nationality. You love your country. But why you kill cows? Is that love of universe?
Guest (1): If I love America?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You love your men, but you kill your cows.
Guest (1): Acchā.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Guest (1): Through ignorance. Men...
Prabhupāda: Then how you love the whole universe, if you are in ignorance?
Guest (1): You do your best.
Prabhupāda: If you are ignorant, you do not know how to love.
Guest (1): That's true, of course. Ignorance is...
Prabhupāda: Then how do you speak of universal love? When you do not know how to love, how do you speak universe, big, big word. You do not know the art of love, and you are speaking universal love.
Guest (1): Well, certainly every...
Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. First of all you say that you do not know how to love, and you are speaking of love the universe. It has already...
Guest (1): Certainly each being in the universe is a part of the universe...
Prabhupāda: But you cannot love each being. That is my point.
Devotee: They were hinting at it. She was saying if you love a pure being...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest (1): You love the universe. Like you asked if I loved the universe.
Devotee: She said that if you love a pure being, then you can love the universe. She stated that if you love a pure being then you can love the universe.
Prabhupāda: Then there is impure being and pure being?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Is it a fact?
Devotee: Is that true?
Prabhupāda: Then as soon as you say pure being, there is impure being.
Guest (1): It seems that way.
Guest (3): The soul isn't impure.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest (3): The soul isn't impure. That's the only reality-purity of the soul.
Guest (1): You love God.
Prabhupāda: Purity of the soul, that means there are impurity of the soul.
Guest (1): It seems that way. It seems that there is...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): ...to my eyes.
Prabhupāda: Then you have to distinguish which is impure and which is pure.
Guest (1): That's very difficult.
Guest (3): I don't know what your saying.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest (3): That there can be an impurity of the soul?
Guest (1): He was asking...
Prabhupāda: You said. You said purity of the soul. That means there must be the contradictory: impurity of soul. Then now we have to distinguish which is impure, which is pure.
Devotee: How can we distinguish?
Guest (1): In the absolute sense the soul is always pure, there is no impurity. But when man is in ignorance, as māyā... Śrī Kṛṣṇa's yogamāyā , His power of delusion, He can...., He makes you think, He makes you see impurity. You see suffering in the world.
Prabhupāda: So wherefrom the māyā comes?
Guest (1): From... I don't know, I can't answer that. It's, it's, it's God's nature, it's His līlā .
Guru dāsa: You stated that Kṛṣṇa makes us see impurity. Is this correct Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Guru dāsa: That Śrī Kṛṣṇa, Lord Kṛṣṇa makes us see impurity. He mentioned...
Guest (1): When a man is in ignorance.
Guru dāsa: Well which is first?
Guest (1): Which is first? Which, ignorance or what?
Guru dāsa: Does Kṛṣṇa make us in ignorance?
Guest (1): Well, He creates the whole universe and everything in it.
Guru dāsa: Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda maybe you can explain that.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Guru dāsa: Does Kṛṣṇa makes us ignorant or are we ignorant?
Prabhupāda: We are.
Guru dāsa: Yes.
Guest (1): We are.
Guru dāsa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: As he said, when you forget, you are in ignorance.
Guest (1): Yes.
Guru dāsa: Can you explain that a little bit more for us?
Prabhupāda: He has already said. This forgetfulness is ignorance.
Guest (1): Yes, forgetfulness.
Prabhupāda: He knows that.
Guest (1): The sense of egoism, I and me and mine is ignorance. It's forgetting that God is everything and that you are nothing.
Prabhupāda: That God and you are different, because you forget God, (indistinct).
Guru dāsa: (indistinct) .... and we forget, so they must be different. We're impure and He's pure, so we're different.
Guest (1): Actually that's the best attitude.
Guru dāsa: So to understand how we're different means we're in knowledge, not ignorance. And then what to do with that understanding means that not seeming. You said it seems, but we're saying not seems...
Guest (1): That's because my, I've read some other things, some other types of thoughts. Now...
Prabhupāda: Now, (indistinct), the universe is God, then you are also God. Is it?
Guest (1): Yes, that follows.
Prabhupāda: Then, how you become ignorant?
Guest (1): That's a mystery. That's something I can't explain.
Prabhupāda: Everything is mystery.
Guest (1): Is that your... Is that a mystery?
Guru dāsa: No.
Guest (1): You understand. Well, that's good.
Guru dāsa: (indistinct). Śrīla Prabhupāda. He has made us, oṁ ajñāna timirāndasya, that by the torchlight of knowledge, he has opened my eyes. There's one Sanskrit poem,
oṁ ajñāna-timirāndhasya
jñānāñjana śalākayā
cakṣur unmīlitaṁ yena
tasmai śrī gurave namaḥ
By the torchlight of knowledge he has opened my darkened eyes.
Śyāmasundara: Everything is a mystery, but if someone who knows that mystery tells you the answer then you can know, then it ceases to be a mystery. But you can't find out on your own.
Guest (1): No, you can't.
Guru dāsa: Prabhupāda was the other day saying that we're the, we have the science of love of God. Many people say, the material scientists say perhaps or about 5,000 years ago such and such happened, but we say 485 years ago Lord Caitanya came. Five thousand years ago such and such happened. There are 8,400,000 species of life, not perhaps there are 8,400,000. So, this is very scientific, this relationship.
Prabhupāda: This is very difficult for the Māyāvādī philosophers to answer, that everyone is God but when God becomes ignorant? And what kind of God He is that He forgets and becomes ignorant? In māyā . So māyā becomes better than God? Is it not? Then what is the definition of God? So many things. But they cannot answer. Just like you said that when you become ignorant (indistinct) God, how it happens? (indistinct). God, how God can be ignorant? And how can God become forgetful? It is contradictory. Then what kind of God he is, that he becomes ignorant sometimes?
Guru dāsa: And if it's Kṛṣṇa's yogamāyā that makes us forgetful and makes God forgetful, that means Kṛṣṇa's God.
Guest (1): No, no, He's the Lord of māyā . He, Kṛṣṇa's pure.
Guru dāsa: Kṛṣṇa's the Lord of everything.
Guest (1): Yes, of course. Kṛṣṇa never forgets.
Guru dāsa: Māyā's also Kṛṣṇa's servant.
Guest (1): Yes, of course.
Prabhupāda: Now (indistinct) That's right. If Kṛṣṇa does not forget, then Kṛṣṇa is God, isn't it?
Guest (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Then why not take Kṛṣṇa līlā study? Why go to others?
Guest (1): Well, I have. I try to the best of my ability, I've read the Gītā , the Bhāgavata.
Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa says, what Kṛṣṇa says, if Kṛṣṇa is God and Kṛṣṇa is never forgetful, then why not go to Kṛṣṇa?
Guru dāsa: He says he's read the Gītā and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So what has come?
Prabhupāda: Reading is not, I mean to say...
Guest (1): Of course not, reading is very (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: ...to understand Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya BG 7.7 , there is no more greater truth than Me. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram BG 7.7, I am the Lord of all the planetary systems, sarva-loka . So why should you go to others if you think that Kṛṣṇa is God, there is no greater personality than Kṛṣṇa? Take the instruction from Kṛṣṇa. It is very easy.
Guest (1): Where is Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Huh? To take instruction from Kṛṣṇa.
Guest (1): Of course. As much as He allows me.
Prabhupāda: So, He allows everything. What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja BG 18.66, you give up everything just surrender unto Me. So if you surrender (indistinct), but if you don't that is your business.
Guest (1): How does one surrender?
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. You do not know then, you have to learn who I will surrender, but the position is this, Kṛṣṇa says that you surrender unto Me. You can surrender immediately. Surrender means just like in war field there is surrender: "(indistinct) now. Now sir, you surrender. Now whatever you like you can do." That is surrender. "If you like, kill me, and if you like, keep(?) me. That is surrender. It is very simple thing. In the war field when other party is defeated, the holds the hand, surrender. That means "If you like kill me, I throw down my weapon. If you like, save me." So He is the Supreme. If He likes He can kill me, if He likes He can save me, so I am subordinate. How can, I can do equally Kṛṣṇa? As soon as you surrender, it is accepted that you are predominated and He is predominator. So how you, the predominated, can be equal to the predominator?
Devotee: Can't be.
Guest (1): He is the Lord (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Śyāmasundara: The thing you said when you came in was that we merge with something which is formless beyond Kṛṣṇa, the first...
Guest (1): No, it's not beyond Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: If he has read Bhagavad-gītā , that he cannot say, because Kṛṣṇa says brahmaṇo ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā , I am the resort of Brahman. So He is greater than Brahman. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate , even Brahman emanates from Me, and actually it is so. Just like the sunshine (indistinct) sun globe. Although the sunshine is universe(?), but still dependent on the sun globe.
Guest (1): Of course that's true. There's nothing beyond Kṛṣṇa, of course.
Prabhupāda: That's good(?).
Devotee: Very nice (indistinct).
Guest (1): (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Very good. He's(?) good boy.
Śyāmasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have a question.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Śyāmasundara: If unity means to agree in purpose.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Then what is that purpose? What is Kṛṣṇa's purpose?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is living force. He has got different purpose.
Śyāmasundara: Oh.
Prabhupāda: Don't say that Kṛṣṇa has only one purpose, that only purpose is that you surrender. Now, when you surrender, whatever Kṛṣṇa says you do it.
Śyāmasundara: Oh. So His purpose is individual for everyone.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Varieties of purposes. Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna to fight with the Kurus, or He's asking me to preach. I am not fighting. So Kṛṣṇa, (indistinct), He has got varieties of order, and your duty is to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa, that's all. What kind of order He'll give, you accept, just like you are doing, all my disciples. It is not that you are all doing the same thing. Somebody is pūjārī , somebody is preaching, somebody is collector, somebody is (indistinct), somebody is this, somebody is that. So there are different varieties, but your duty is to carry out my order.
Guru dāsa: Just like you're satisfying us all, Kṛṣṇa satisfies everyone, (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Surrender means, whatever is favorable for Kṛṣṇa we apply, that's all. You cannot say, just like Arjuna, he first of all declined, "Kṛṣṇa, I am not going to fight." That is not surrender.
Guest (1): "I'll do whatever you want, but don't ask me to fight."
Prabhupāda: You cannot deny Him. That is surrender. Then, when he understood Bhagavad-gītā he said "Yes, I shall do that." So long I deny Kṛṣṇa that is disunity, and as soon as I agree, "Kṛṣṇa, yes." Then this unity. Unity does not mean that Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna become united, homogeneous. No. Kṛṣṇa is distinct and Arjuna. They continue to exist. In the beginning Arjuna was denying to fight. That is dependence(?), and at the end when he said, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava BG 18.73, my illusion is now over. That is (indistinct). Unity does not mean one's self loses individuality. That is cannot, that cannot be. Kṛṣṇa says that "both you and me and all these soldiers and Kings they existed before, now we are existing and we shall exist in future(?). So, that individuality is always kept. So unity means agreeing with the order of Kṛṣṇa, and disunity means not agreeing with the order. Otherwise your existence(?), mine and Kṛṣṇa's existence, always will be.
Śyāmasundara: Sometimes people ask what is, what is God's ultimate goal? What is, why is God creating everything and are all these manifestations...
Prabhupāda: These are very old questions. These are not very intelligent questions. God is not creating. God is giving you chance. The conditioned souls who are not with Kṛṣṇa, they wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore God is giving them chance. "All right enjoy (indistinct)," and giving instruction also that you enjoy in this way, so that you may come back again. Just like a father. Children wants to play in the (indistinct). "All right, you play." Then, as soon as he asks, "Please come back. (indistinct), they come back. Similarly this material world, we wanted to enjoy, so Kṛṣṇa has given us freedom, "All right enjoy". And now Kṛṣṇa gives instruction that "now you give up all this (indistinct) come back, then you (indistinct)." He created for you. Same example I always give. Just like the government, when there is formation of the city, jail construction is also there. You cannot say that, "Why government is creating, it is unnecessary, it's premature, construction of jail work(?). But the government knows that there are some criminals who has to be put into the jail. Therefore the jail created. So because there are criminals, therefore government creates. Similarly, there are many conditioned souls who, instead of serving Kṛṣṇa, they want to enjoy. "All right, for you, you enjoy to your fullest extent." And when he is tired of enjoying, enjoying, enjoying. Then Kṛṣṇa says that, "If you give up all this nonsense, just surrender to Me, you will be accepted." But the demons will never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. They say that this material world is false and Brahman is truth, but they do not know how to act as Brahman. Brahman means to stop. That is nirviśeṣavāda and śūnyavāda , to become void. But you cannot become void. If I say "Mr. such and such, you sit down here, try to become void," how long you shall do that, void?
Guest (1): No, that's impossible.
Prabhupāda: That's impossible. So this is a wrong theory. Because I am a living entity, I have got my activities. I can remain void for few seconds, for few minutes. (Guests enter and pay obeisances) Very glad to see you. (indistinct—break)
Dr. Kapoor: As I understand (indistinct). The export minister (indistinct). (indistinct) C. D. Gupta, the old chief minister, you see. He is coming and I take they have arranged a program in his honor. I don't know how they will make this program fit in. I don't think..., huh? [break]
Prabhupāda: In the road they are announcing that Śrī Bhaktivedanta Swami American śiṣyas ...
Dr. Kapoor: I heard the announcement but that was on the (indistinct) hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana (indistinct). You have your (indistinct)?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: The other program is on behalf of...
Prabhupāda: But we don't want.
Dr. Kapoor: Hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana mandal (?).
Prabhupāda: Acchā .
Dr. Kapoor: That is exclusively for you.
Prabhupāda: Hmm.
Dr. Kapoor: But I don't know how they have arranged with this other program but I was told that this C. D. Gupta, the ex-chief minister is coming.
Guest (Indian man): At Śrīji Mandir?
Dr. Kapoor: Śrīji Mandir. (indistinct conversation in background) I was told by responsible person that C. D. Gupta is coming to see the temple at 4 o'clock. I don't know. At any rate I may be wrong. It's (indistinct) you see. They shouldn't make the two programs coincide. (pause) Program is working wonders through you?
Prabhupāda: It is by your blessings.
Guest: (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: I do not know how (indistinct) making plans. I am sometimes myself puzzled. (laughter)
Dr. Kapoor: Yes, because you are just an instrument (laughter).
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: You are just an instrument, you see.
Prabhupāda: Just like Kavirāja Gosvāmī also writes that I do not know how things are coming, but with my hand is getting written. It is something like that.
Dr. Kapoor: Yes, yes. It cannot be, cannot but be (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice. Even by his consciousness it acts faultlessly.
Dr. Kapoor: It acts immediately.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: Yes (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Ahaituki .
Dr. Kapoor: Huh?
Prabhupāda:
vāsudeve bhagavati
bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ
janayaty āśu vairāgyam
jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam
SB 1.2.7
Dr. Kapoor: Ahaituki . Hmm.
Prabhupāda: Jñāna-vairāgya, janayaty āśu, ahaituki. Nobody knows how we do.
Dr. Kapoor: That's true.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: That's true. But the wonder is that it didn't act so far, you see, it didn't act when Bon Mahārāja went up. It didn't act when a proper program, and a number of other people, you see. It has started acting only now, (laughter).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Hmm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you know what the address of Indore is?
Prabhupāda: What?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Address of Indore? [break]
Dr. Kapoor: (Bengali).... Just that I was saying that we require you see, in this age.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: Just that I was saying.
Prabhupāda: Simply they were binding or something else.
Dr. Kapoor: No, not only the outside, (laughter), the outside, and the people particularly in the west, you see, will not be impressed simply with the outside.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct). Our Bhagavad-gītā as it is, you have seen it?
Dr. Kapoor: Huh?
Prabhupāda: I am presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is.
Dr. Kapoor: Huh.
Prabhupāda: So that Bhagavad-gītā as it is published by MacMillan Company.
Dr. Kapoor: I haven't read it through, but I saw the publication.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are having every year one edition.
Dr. Kapoor: Hmm. I see. Wonderful.
Prabhupāda: Yes, for the last, it has begun from 1968, it is still going on, every year, they publish and they send me royalty $2,000.
Dr. Kapoor: Good.
Guru dāsa: (indistinct) has read Nectar of Devotion.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee: (indistinct) has read Nectar of Devotion.
Dr. Kapoor: Nectar of Devotion I have read. That's wonderfully done.
Prabhupāda: You like it?
Dr. Kapoor: It's nectar, really.
Prabhupāda: Doctor Kapoor, what is your age now? I think you are a little younger than me.
Dr. Kapoor: I think I am (indistinct) younger than you.
Prabhupāda: Ah, what is your age now?
Dr. Kapoor: I am sixty-two, now, sixty-three, sixty-three.
Prabhupāda: Ten years. Not ten years, nine years.
Dr. Kapoor: Nine years.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because when you were a student, at that time we were family man.
Dr. Kapoor: Yes, when I had just finished my university career, I think...
Prabhupāda: In Allahabad, when you were living at that...
Dr. Kapoor: Gauḍīya Maṭha.
Prabhupāda: Gauḍīya Maṭha, I think you were student then.
Dr. Kapoor: I had just, I think, I was a research student then. I had just taken my MA and I was working as a research scholar. I met Giri Mahārāja in 1931 when he did some (indistinct) at Nainital.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Dr. Kapoor: He first introduced me to Mahāprabhu, you see, or introduced Mahāprabhu to me. You see before that I was a scholar.
Prabhupāda: But your teeth are very strong.
Dr. Kapoor: Teeth (indistinct)?
Prabhupāda: You're having strong teeth.
Dr. Kapoor: They are, so long as you don't know that I have not real ones. (laughter)
Devotee: That is māyā. (more laughing by Dr. Kapoor)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi).
Dr. Kapoor: She was here only a couple of days ago. My youngest son was married on the 20th of this month...
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, I heard.
Dr. Kapoor: So they came in that connection.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi).
Dr. Kapoor: I have two sons and two daughters. The eldest one is the one you know.
Prabhupāda: Oh, in Kanpur.
Dr. Kapoor: In Kanpur.
Prabhupāda: Dhawan.
Dr. Kapoor: Dhawan, Dhawan. Yes, she also knows you very well.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes, I was Dhawan's guest sometimes.
Dr. Kapoor: You were his guest, yes, yes. My son-in-law was telling me.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: He was telling me.
Prabhupāda: I think that gentleman is no longer alive.
Dr. Kapoor: His father is no more.
Prabhupāda: No, yes, I am speaking of the old Dhawan.
Dr. Kapoor: Ah, I see.
Prabhupāda: Even though he was a young man.
Dr. Kapoor: Ah, he was a young man. When did you go to Kanpur?
Prabhupāda: I think I went to Kanpur sometimes in the year 1956.
Dr. Kapoor: 56?
Prabhupāda: Yes, 55. (Bengali-greets visitor)
Guest: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Śrīji
Dr. Kapoor: Śrīji, Śrīji (Hindi).
Guest: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] ... Kalau nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyathā. (Hindi). ...on this principle(?) I went, with determination. (Hindi) Yasya prasādad bhagavat prasādo ** . [break] (Bengali) ...seventy dollars per month. Seventy dollars means seven hundred rupees. So expenditure was over 2,000 rupees according to our Indian calculation.
Dr. Kapoor: And uh...
Prabhupāda: The income was nil.
Dr. Kapoor: Nil. How much money did you carry with you?
Prabhupāda: Forty rupees.
Dr. Kapoor: Forty rupees?
Prabhupāda: Yes. But I could not spend because there was no exchange for Indian currency, no (laughter). So it was kept as it is. When I came back in 1967, that was spent as my taxi fare (laughter). At that time it was spent. From Palam airport to Delhi, that Chippiwada. So they charged me thirty-five rupees or forty rupees. So at that time it was spent, and 1967 there was heart attack.
Dr. Kapoor: Oh.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I was hospitalized, but I did not like the hospital. So I thought that now I shall die, let me go back to Vṛndāvana. (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: Yes, it was 1967, wasn't it.
Prabhupāda: 1967, yes.
Dr. Kapoor: So it was after the heart attack that you came here?
Prabhupāda: Yes. At that time. Then there was repeated letters, come back, come back. So I returned in 1968. So, in spite of heart weakness, I worked. I suffered that weakness continually for one year.
Dr. Kapoor: Naturally, naturally.
Prabhupāda: Then I was taking Kavirāja's medicine. I took it from here, that Yogendranātha. That gave me good strength, and massage the body. Not taking bath in cold water. In this way, somehow or other, still going on.
Dr. Kapoor: Now I think you would be more useful if you took more rest, spend as little as what Hare Kṛṣṇa...
Prabhupāda: What? Rest, (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: No, even then, (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: Even if you go by plane.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: That means straight. So if you stay at one place that's a different kind of life, you see, it's not so strenuous. You move around from place to place...
Prabhupāda: But I have got sixty-six branches, so if I do not go some time at least, they also become little depressed.
Dr. Kapoor: That is true, but you'll have to find some way out. You have to...
Prabhupāda: I have constituted one governing body as Prabhupāda desired, governing body, but still they are not so experienced. (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: (indistinct) You would more usefully because you are (indistinct) to reading and writing (indistinct) than going about.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: Have a small center here in Vṛndāvana, and you should make this your permanent place for this.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: Would Vṛndāvana not be more suitable.
Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana is very suitable, but (Hindi—to other guests)
Dr. Kapoor: I am going to inform something. I am pañca-śāstri(?).
Prabhupāda: Oh!
Dr. Kapoor: Ami vedante(?) gold medalist. I am gold medalist in Vaiṣṇava śāstra. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: If you let me, I wish to give life.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: sixty, about sixty. I want to give my life for this religion.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's (indistinct).
Dr. Kapoor: Prabhupāda, let's meet.
Prabhupāda: Oh, you remain with us.
Dr. Kapoor: Practically I am very weak.
Prabhupāda: Mūkaṁ karoti vācālaṁ paṅguṁ laṅghayate .
Dr. Kapoor: Now my hope is successful. I have seen you.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Guest (4): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Guest (4): (Hindi). I am very impressed to read your book which is written by Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: You have seen some of my books?
Guest (4): Mm.
Prabhupāda: So you can read.
Guest (4): I am willing to read in the (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: So, first of all giving our Bhagavad-gītā As It Is to read.... (Hindi) [break] (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: Well I think it will be about five hundred pages. (Hindi conversation)
Prabhupāda: ... especially Punjabis.
Dr. Kapoor: They are all over.
Prabhupāda: Ah, Punjabis, Gujaratis.
Dr. Kapoor: Gujaratis also, Hm.
Prabhupāda: And Sindhis. Gujaratis are more.
Dr. Kapoor: Huh!
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. In San Francisco there are many Gujaratis, Patels.
Dr. Kapoor: Patels. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So how did you manage immediately after landing in USA?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Manage, when I got only two-hundred dollars in hand, at that time immediately I rented a storefront.
Dr. Kapoor: Eh?
Prabhupāda: Storefront.
Dr. Kapoor: Huh.
Prabhupāda: A shop.
Dr. Kapoor: Oh.
Prabhupāda: It was hundred and twenty-five dollars. And I got opportunity, also, the same building, one small apartment, seventy-two dollars, or seventy dollars, no seventy-five, seventy-five. In this way, two-hundred dollars per month. So I had only two-hundred dollars, I immediately advanced and took the risk of two-hundred dollars.
Devotee: That was a year after you went.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In 1966. I went there in 1965. So, then...
Dr. Kapoor: No, but from '65-'66 how did you manage? You didn't have any money with you.
Prabhupāda: Managed by selling my books.
Dr. Kapoor: Oh.
Prabhupāda: Bhāgavatam.
Dr. Kapoor: I see.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: I see. You carried your books with you?
Prabhupāda: Yes, I took two-hundred sets of books.
Dr. Kapoor: I see.
Prabhupāda: So I was taking the stock to the booksellers there or some institution or some friend. In this way, sixteen dollars, the full set sixteen dollars. In this way collecting. [break] ...That gentleman who carried me in his car, he is Mr. Kaśinātha Servan(?). [break] ... Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, a large edition, this size, eleven hundred pages.
Dr. Kapoor: I see.
Guru dāsa: We should let Dr. Karan Singh patronize ...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guru dāsa: ...an Indian edition of it. We should let Dr. Karan Singh patronize an Indian edition of it, without, with one photo. As he was suggesting, let him patronize it, the Indian printing.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Guru dāsa: Because there is so much demand. He wants to see it. He wants to see it.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you get the manuscript and let us have an Indian edition. I told Rūpānuga that the difficulty is that the enlarged edition when we are attempting to publish, MacMillan says that "We are publishing your book, why not we, we publish." If we publish, then we save our investment to publish. That has not been decided, so therefore I advised my secretary in New York that MacMillan's permission or no permission, you should immediately print. If they print it is all right, otherwise print ourself.
Dr. Kapoor: Haven't you given the copyright to them?
Prabhupāda: No, copyright is mine.
Dr. Kapoor: Oh.
Guest (5): Can you get, get it, published in India.
Prabhupāda: In India, yes. No, by publisher, especially publisher like MacMillan you save so much time and investment also. We are not for profit. We want to see the publication in the market, so in that sense we save so much trouble, but they always look after their business profit.
Dr. Kapoor: Naturally.
Prabhupāda: In the beginning also I requested them to publish the whole, but they said, "No, it will be very big, it will be costly. You reduce it to 400 pages." So that 1100 pages were reduced to 400 pages. Now when people are demanding this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, people are coming. When our saṅkīrtana party goes in the street many gentlemen comes and demands "Have you got Bhaktivedanta's Bhagavad-gītā As It Is?"
Dr. Kapoor: Hm, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they demand it. In every center it is going on very nicely. Then we have many customer requested the enlarged edition. So, so everything is ready. Now this controversy, whether MacMillan will publish or we shall publish.
Dr. Kapoor: There is no doubt that you will be saving a lot of trouble (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: And they have got good organization.
Dr. Kapoor: Good organization they have got.
Prabhupāda: All over the world.
Dr. Kapoor: They'll sell more. They'll sell more.
Prabhupāda: Actually because it was published by MacMillan Company, it has become widely circulated, people are demanding.
Dr. Kapoor: I think you should let them publish.
Prabhupāda: That I am trying, but it has not been decided, but anyway it will be published very soon.
Guru dāsa: Even if they do publish it, they will not distribute it in India.
Prabhupāda: Yes, in that sense we may publish in India.
Dr. Kapoor: You may have an agreement with them, that you have a cheaper Indian edition, which you will sell only in India, you can give them the right to sell it all over the world.
Prabhupāda: I have asked that Shishu Kumar, Shishu Kumar you know?
Guru dāsa: No.
Prabhupāda: The Atmarama & Son's proprietor.
Guru dāsa: Oh yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: He came to see me.
Guru dāsa: Yes, I know.
Prabhupāda: So I asked him the quotation of that small edition of Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. He told me that he will inform me. Anyway (Hindi).
Guest (5): (Hindi).
Prabhupāda: Whenever I take ticket, round trip. (Hindi) [break] Ye 'nye ca pāpā, śudhyanti, prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ. Bhāgavata...
Dr. Kapoor: (chants mantra). Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa-bhakti development (Hindi—break) ...creation. (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: Before creation, the kṛṣṇa-bhakti was in Vaikuṇṭha (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: After creation it came from...
Prabhupāda: Tene brahma hṛdā, ādi-kavaye. Tene brahma. Brahma means before the creation. Aham evasam agre. Before creation Kṛṣṇa was there, and it was, the kṛṣṇa-bhakti was injected within the heart of Brahmā. (Hindi—break) ...three to four hours at night and one hour or one and half hour, altogether five hours. Gosvāmīs (Hindi) ... brahma-bhūtaḥ. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate BG 14.26.
Dr. Kapoor: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Bhagavaty uttama-śloke bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī SB 1.2.18 . Uttama-śloke. Uttama (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: Minor accident with the bus (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Oh. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadām (laughter) . Tat padma vipad. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na teṣām SB 10.14.58 .
Dr. Kapoor: ...accident.
Prabhupāda: Tell me.
Dr. Kapoor: One you see I was going from Kanpur(?) to Benares, with (indistinct) in the same car, and when I went on a crossing a badly loaded truck, you see...
Prabhupāda: Oh, so...
Dr. Kapoor: ...struck against our car, you see, and the car bounced, it jumped. It's about four or five feet from the ground, and it fell upside down, and there was not a scratch, I tell you. Not one of us was hurt. Not one of us. And a camel on the roadside, so he and one passenger, they were both killed.
Prabhupāda: Killed?
Dr. Kapoor: Killed. I think (indistinct) to us.
Guest: At that time you remembered Bhagavān Śrī Kṛṣṇa, at that time. He remembers Śrī Kṛṣṇa Bhagavān.
Dr. Kapoor: Baba, I did not (indistinct) (laughter).
Prabhupāda: He remembers Kṛṣṇa always.
Dr. Kapoor: But Kṛṣṇa remembered me (laughter), and you see it has been my experience, you see, on such occasions, if you are dedicated to Kṛṣṇa, even if you don't remember Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa remembers you always.
Prabhupāda: That is the special...
Dr. Kapoor: It is as much Kṛṣṇa's responsibility to remember us in times of adversity, as it is ours to remember Him. But we are mortals and we are likely to forget Him.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi).... Śraddha-śābde viśvāsa (kahe) sudṛḍha niścaya kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya CC Madhya 22.62 . Śraddha . Our Vaiṣṇava philosophy (Hindi) śraddhā-śābde viśvāsa , full faith, viśvāsa , or sudṛḍha niścaya . (Hindi) Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. If one becomes dovetailed in the service of the Lord, Kṛṣṇa, then everything is done nicely. Śraddha-śābde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya.
Dr. Kapoor: And people are really astounded to see śraddhā , especially śraddhā and guru in your disciples. That is the one thing that is clear to everybody.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: (indistinct).
Guru dāsa: What is that śraddhā ?
Prabhupāda: Śraddha means faith in spiritual master. They are praising your faith in...
Dr. Kapoor: People are impressed very much by your guru-bhakti (laughter). (Hindi)
Guru dāsa: If they associated with Śrīla Prabhupāda they would...[break] (end)