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[[Category:1974 - Conversations]]
<div class="code">740316RC.VRN</div>
[[Category:1974 - Lectures and Conversations]]
[[Category:1974 - Lectures, Conversations and Letters]]
[[Category:1974-03 - Lectures, Conversations and Letters]]
[[Category:Conversations - India]]
[[Category:Conversations - India, Vrndavana]]
[[Category:Lectures, Conversations and Letters - India]]
[[Category:Lectures, Conversations and Letters - India, Vrndavana]]
[[Category:Audio Files 20.01 to 30.00 Minutes]]
[[Category:1974 - New Audio - Released in October 2014]]
[[Category:Conversations and Lectures with Bengali Snippets]]
<div style="float:left">[[File:Go-previous.png|link=Category:Conversations - by Date]]'''[[:Category:Conversations - by Date|Conversations by Date]], [[:Category:1974 - Conversations|1974]]'''</div>
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Prabhupāda: ...come with me?


Guest: Yes. when I came with you, I came back once again, and this is the second time.
<div class="code">740316R1-VRNDAVAN - March 16, 1974 - 26:02 Minutes</div>


Prabhupāda: Oh.


Guest: That time I stayed four months, and this time I've just arrived again.
<mp3player>https://s3.amazonaws.com/vanipedia/full/1974/740316R1-VRNDAVAN.mp3</mp3player>


Prabhupāda: Oh. So what is your program now?


Guest: Uh, well I came to see Nim Karoli. I didn't know you were in town and I was down the street and I saw Guru dāsa, so I said, I went over and said hello to him.
'''Prabhupāda:''' . . . come with me?


Prabhupāda: Oh.
'''American guest:''' Yes. When I came with you, I came back once again, and this is the second time.


Guest: And he, he and Yamunā insisted that I come visit you.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh.


Prabhupāda: Nim Karoli, how do you know him?
'''American guest:''' That time I stayed four months, and this time I've just arrived again.


Guest: Well, you've heard of Richard Alpert? Er, oh, a man called Baba Rāma Dāsa? You know Richard Alpert?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh. So what is your program now?


Prabhupāda: Oh, Balarāma, he was here.
'''American guest:''' Uh, well I came to see Nim Karoli. I didn't know you were in town, and I was down the street and I saw Gurudāsa, so I said . . . I went over and said hello to him.


Devotee: Baba Rāma, Baba Rāma.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh.


Devotee (2): Baba Rāma Dāsa.
'''American guest:''' And he . . . he and Yamunā insisted that I come visit you.


Prabhupāda: Oh, Baba Rāma. (Hindi) [break]
'''Prabhupāda:''' Nim Karoli, how do you know him?


Guest: ...that's the last time I saw you. From time to time I see Baba Rāma.
'''American guest:''' Well, you've heard of Richard Alpert? Er, oh, a man called Baba Ram Das? You know Richard Alpert?


Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we have got one hundred and two branches. Mexico City, we have got. I have been there. I forget the name of the street. Very nice center. Indian standard. Mexico City building almost Indian standard.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh, Balarāma, he was here.


Guest: Yes.
'''Devotee:''' Baba Ram, Baba Ram.


Prabhupāda: And people are also almost Indian standard.
'''Devotee (2):''' Baba Ram Das.


Guest: Well, Mexico and India are exactly same, opposite side of the world, like this.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh, Baba Ram. <span style="color:#ec710e">Tomar khabar diyeche?</span> <span style="color:#128807">(They gave you food?)</span> (break)


Prabhupāda: Anti-point.
'''American guest:''' . . . that's the last time I saw you. From time to time I see Baba Ram.


Guest: Yes. And, uh, some, there's a few similarities in the religion, I think, because they have a fearful goddess like Mahā-kālī.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Now we have got one hundred and two branches. Mexico City, we have got. I have been there. I forget the name of the street. Very nice center, Indian standard. Mexico City building almost Indian standard.


Prabhupāda: Worship Mahā-kālī?
'''American guest:''' Yes.


Guest: Like Mahā-kālī, yes, very fearful, you know. She's, er, her head comes from two serpent's heads.
'''Prabhupāda:''' And people are also almost Indian standard.


Prabhupāda: Oh.
'''American guest:''' Well, Mexico and India are exactly same . . . opposite side of the world, like this.


Guest: You know, two serpent's heads are together like this, making her face, and then she wears a skirt of skulls.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Anti-point.


Prabhupāda: Oh, skulls.
'''American guest:''' Yes. And, uh, some . . . there's a few similarities in the religion, I think, because they have a fearful goddess like Mahā-kālī.


Guest: Skulls.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Worship Mahā-kālī?


Prabhupāda: They're practicing Mahā-kālī.
'''American guest:''' Like Mahā-kālī, yes. Very fearful, you know. She's, er, her head comes from two serpents' heads.


Guest: Like Mahā-kālī, yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh.


Prabhupāda: That is worship. That is (indistinct)?
'''American guest:''' You know, two serpents' heads are together like this, making her face, and then she wears a skirt of skulls.


Guest: Well before, when the Spanish were there.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh, skulls.


Prabhupāda: Oh.
'''American guest:''' Skulls.


Guest: Name is Papinque(?).
'''Prabhupāda:''' They're . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahā-kālī.


Prabhupāda: Oh.
'''American guest:''' Like Mahā-kālī, yes.


Guest: And she's supposed to represent the earth.
'''Prabhupāda:''' That is worship. That is religion?


Prabhupāda: Your parents live in Mexico City?
'''American guest:''' Well, before, when the Spanish were there.


Guest: No, not Mexico City. (indistinct) I have relatives in Mexico City. When I was there this summer I went to visit one other Hindu establishment that comes down from Śaṅkarācārya.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh.


Prabhupāda: Where?
'''American guest:''' Name is Papinque.


Guest: On the street (indistinct). But I didn't know you had a branch in Mexico City at the time.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh.


Prabhupāda: Oh.
'''American guest:''' And she's supposed to represent the earth.


Guest: They're also vegetarians now.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Your parents live in Mexico City?


Prabhupāda: Acchā? In Mexico they are vegetarians?
'''American guest:''' No, not Mexico City . . . (indistinct) . . . region. I have relatives in Mexico City. When I was there this summer I went to visit one other Hindu establishment that comes down from Śaṅkarācārya.


Guest: Well, no. Most Mexicans are not vegetarians, but this, these people who belong to Śaṅkarācārya sampradāya are vegetarians.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh


Guru Dāsa: Where's the name "Maya" civilization come from?
'''American guest:''' On the street Puerto. But I didn't know you had a branch in Mexico City at the time.


Guest: I think it's probably just a coincidence that the name is Maya, more than, you know.... [break]
'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh.


Guest: How's your health?
'''American guest:''' They're also vegetarians now.


Prabhupāda: Health is not very good. I am not (indistinct).
'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Acchā''? In Mexico they are vegetarians?


Devotee: It's almost time to go to your.... [break]
'''American guest:''' Well, no. Most Mexicans are not vegetarians, but this . . . these people who belong to Śaṅkarācārya ''sampradāya'' are vegetarians.


Prabhupāda: This we will take more, it will not harm, but the other, if you take little less.... [break] Mexico? No.
'''Gurudāsa:''' Where's the name "Maya" civilization come from?


Guest: There is good butter.
'''American guest:''' I think it's probably just a coincidence that the name is Maya, more than, you know . . . (break)


Prabhupāda: Butter?
'''American guest:''' How's your health?


Guest: Very good butter. I suppose you could make good ghee out of it. The butter there is, you know, like uh...
'''Prabhupāda:''' Health is not very good. I am not cent percent.


Prabhupāda: Are there any flowers there? There are so many flowerstall.
'''Devotee:''' So much time . . . (indistinct) . .  . (break)


Guest: Yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' This we will take more, it will not harm. But the other, if you take little less . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . ''ghee''. Most . . . (indistinct) . . . New Zealand. In Mexico also? No.


Prabhupāda: And there in Mexico, in Mexico where I saw "Mahātmā Gandhi (Road?)."
'''American guest:''' There is good butter.


Devotee: That was in Mexico.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Butter?


Guru dāsa: In Mexico City they have many streets named after famous men.
'''American guest:''' Very good butter. I suppose you could make good ''ghee'' out of it. The butter there is, you know, like, uh . . .


Prabhupāda: Oh.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Many flowers eh? There are so many flower stall.


Guru Dāsa: Yeah. Mexico City. Mahātmā Gandhi.
'''American guest:''' Yes.


Prabhupāda: There in the city. I saw Mahātmā Gandhi Street.
'''Prabhupāda:''' And there in Mexico there is . . . in Mexico where I saw "Mahatma Gandhi."


Guest: Hm, yeah. I can't remember. Maybe. There's.... [break].
'''Devotee:''' That was in Mexico.


Prabhupāda: Just by the side of a flower stand. I was surprised, Mahātmā Gandhi Road. [break]
'''Gurudāsa:''' In Mexico City they have many streets named after famous men.


Guest: From that illness you had when you came to India...
'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh.


Prabhupāda: Yes.
'''Gurudāsa:''' Yeah. Mexico City. Mahatma Gandhi.


Guest: When you were recovering from your stroke?
'''Prabhupāda:''' There in the city. I saw Mahatma Gandhi Street.


Prabhupāda: Oh.
'''American guest:''' Hmm, yeah. I can't remember. Maybe. There's . . . (break)


Guest: I think you looked in better health then.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Just by the side of a flower stand. I was surprised, Mahatma Gandhi. (break)


Prabhupāda: When I was...
'''American guest:''' From that illness you had when you came to India . . .


Guest: Yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.


Prabhupāda: Yes. Since then I have no stroke.
'''American guest:''' When you were recovering from your stroke?


Guest: You still have massages every day?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh.


Prabhupāda: Yes. We have massages. One day him, one day Acyutānanda. [break] What philosophy you are following?
'''American guest:''' I think you looked in better health then.


Guest: Pardon?
'''Prabhupāda:''' When I was . . .


Prabhupāda: Which philosophy you are following?
'''American guest:''' Yes.


Guest: Uh, Buddha philosophy, and uh, Vedānta and uh, Kṛṣṇa philosophy. I have a Tibetan teacher now, (indistinct).
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Since then I have no stroke.


Prabhupāda: He also teaches Kṛṣṇa?
'''American guest:''' You still have massages every day?


Guest: Uh, he teaches uh...
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. We have massages. One day him, one day Acyutānanda, one day . . . (break) What philosophy you are following?


Prabhupāda: Buddha.
'''American guest:''' Pardon?


Guest: Buddha. Buddhism.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Which philosophy you are following?


Prabhupāda: So how you will adjust Kṛṣṇa philosophy and Buddha philosophy?
'''American guest:''' Uh, Buddha philosophy, and, uh, ''Vedānta'' and, uh, Kṛṣṇa philosophy. I have a Tibetan teacher now . . . (indistinct)


Guest: Well it's just a different uh, approach. But I don't think there's any fundamental difference. I mean if you, if you, uh, have the ultimate consciousness in one, you have it in the other, too.
'''Prabhupāda:''' He also teaches Kṛṣṇa?


Prabhupāda: So there is difference. Buddha philosophy does not accept God.
'''American guest:''' Uh, he teaches, uh . . .


Guest: Yeah. It's a atheistic approach.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Buddha.


Prabhupāda: Huh?
'''American guest:''' Buddha. Buddhism.


Guest: It's a atheistic approach.
'''Prabhupāda:''' So how you will adjust Kṛṣṇa philosophy and Buddha philosophy?


Prabhupāda: No soul, no God. Our Kṛṣṇa philosophy is God, soul, and Vedānta philosophy, that is also God. So Buddha philosophy different from Vedānta philosophy and Kṛṣṇa philosophy.
'''American guest:''' Well, it's just a different, uh, approach. But I don't think there's any fundamental difference. I mean if you, if you, uh, have the ultimate consciousness in one, you have it in the other, too.


Guest: The approach is different, yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' So there is difference. Buddha philosophy does not accept God.


Prabhupāda: Hm?
'''American guest:''' Yeah. It's a atheistic approach.


Guest: The approach is different.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?


Prabhupāda: Approach? The end is different. Now how you'll adjust Buddha philosophy and Kṛṣṇa philosophy?
'''American guest:''' It's a atheistic approach.


Guest: There's a few, uh, paradoxes I..., but uh, anyway, I asked the same key question to uh, to my, uh, Tibetan teacher, and, uh, because he was, he was putting down everybody else and calling everybody else except his philosophy heretics. So then I asked him, I said, "Now this experience that all those different people say that they have achieved, you know," I says, uh, "is it substantially different or not?"
'''Prabhupāda:''' No soul, no God. Our Kṛṣṇa philosophy is God, soul, and ''Vedānta'' philosophy, that is also God. So Buddha philosophy different from ''Vedānta'' philosophy and Kṛṣṇa philosophy.


Prabhupāda: Achieved?
'''American guest:''' The approach is different, yes.


Guest: Achieved. You know-attained.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm?


Prabhupāda: Achieved. Oh.
'''American guest:''' The approach is different.


Guest: And uh, then he started to say, "Well if they believe in an external God," or something like that, "then it is heretical." I says, "But nevertheless," I says, "Uh, like in the writings of, say, Meister Eckhart or the different mystics, they all seem to describe their experience in pretty much similar terms." So I said, I asked him, "Does this mean that the experience is different or not?" So then he argued, he finally says.... Well, he didn't say it directly, but what he said is that if, if you want to get the experience of touching something to find out what hot is, he says you may have different motive. Like some people may do it because it's pretty, some out of curiosity or different motive. In other words, he admitted that the experience finally was the same, even though the approach was different.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Approach? The end is different. Now how you'll adjust Buddha philosophy and Kṛṣṇa philosophy?


Prabhupāda: If the approach is different, suppose in the approach is to fire, the approach may be different, but heat or light is there. So why do they approach fire? But if you are approaching something else, how the same experience is there?
'''American guest:''' There's a few, uh, paradoxes I . . . but, uh, anyway, I asked the same key question to, uh, to my, uh, Tibetan teacher, and, uh, because he was . . . he was putting down everybody else and calling everybody else except his philosophy heretics. So then I asked him, I said: "Now this experience that all those different people say that they have achieved, you know," I says, uh, "is it substantially different or not?"


Guest: Well...
'''Prabhupāda:''' Achieved?


Prabhupāda: Say we approach fire, then approach may be a different way, but the goal, it is fire, you will experience heat and light.
'''American guest:''' Achieved. You know—attained.


Guest: Well, approaching means...
'''Prabhupāda:''' Achieved. Oh.


Prabhupāda: But if the approach is different, then how you will experience heat and light?
'''American guest:''' And, uh, then he started to say: "Well, if they believe in an external God," or something like that, "then it is heretical." I says: "But nevertheless," I says: "uh, like in the writings of, say, Meister Eckhart or the different mystics, they all seem to describe their experience in pretty much similar terms." So I said, I asked him, "Does this mean that the experience is different or not?" So then he argued. He finally says . . . well, he didn't say it directly, but what he said is that if . . . if you want to get the experience of touching something to find out what hot is, he says you may have different motive. Like some people may do it because it's pretty, some out of curiosity or different motive. In other words, he admitted that the experience finally was the same, even though the approach was different.


Guest: Yes, but what are we approaching?
'''Prabhupāda:''' If the approach is different . . . suppose if the approach is to fire. The approach may be different, but heat or light is there. So why do they approach fire? But if you are approaching something else, how the same experience will be there?


Prabhupāda: Huh?
'''American guest:''' Well . . .


Guest: What are we approaching?
'''Prabhupāda:''' If you actually approach fire, then approach may be a different way, but the goal—it is fire—you will experience heat and light.


Prabhupāda: That you have to explain.
'''American guest:''' We are, approaching means . . .


Guest: Yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' But if the approach is different, then how you will experience heat and light?


Prabhupāda: We say...
'''American guest:''' Yes, but what are we approaching?


Guest: The Absolute.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?


Prabhupāda: We say approaching Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute. We have got Kṛṣṇa's form, we have Kṛṣṇa's name, we have personal address, His pastime. Just like you know me, I know you, means I have got form, you have got form, I know your qualities, you know my qualities; therefore we know each other. But if the approach is void, then how the approach is the same? There must be something tangible; then the approach is the same.
'''American guest:''' What are we approaching?


Guest: Well, I know your philosophy, cause I was very intimately involved with it, but I still believe that if, uh, your uh, you may have a different style, and you may call it Kṛṣṇa consciousness or you may call it nirvāṇa, but I think that ultimately it's, uh...
'''Prabhupāda:''' That you have to explain.


Prabhupāda: I can, I can explain Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but you cannot explain nirvāṇa . That is the difficulty. I can explain my position but you cannot explain your position.
'''American guest:''' Yes.


Guest: How is it that I cannot explain my position?
'''Prabhupāda:''' We say . . .


Prabhupāda: Then explain what do you mean by nirvāṇa .
'''American guest:''' The Absolute.


Guest: Well it's the ultimate state of consciousness.
'''Prabhupāda:''' We say approaching Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute. We have got Kṛṣṇa's form, we have Kṛṣṇa's name, we have personal address, His pastime. Just like you know me, I know you, means I have got form, you have got form, I know your qualities, you know my qualities—therefore you know each other. But if the approach is void, then how the approach is the same? There must be something tangible; then the approach is the same.


Prabhupāda: Where is nirvāṇa when you do not know the meaning of nirvāṇa ? Nirvāṇa means finished.
'''American guest:''' Well, I know your philosophy, 'cause I was very intimately involved with it, but I still believe that if, uh, your, uh . . . you may have a different style, and you may call it Kṛṣṇa consciousness or you may call it ''nirvāṇa'', but I think that ultimately it's, uh . . .


Guest: Uh, yes. I think that...
'''Prabhupāda:''' I can . . . I can explain Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but you cannot explain ''nirvāṇa''. That is the difficulty. I can explain my position, but you cannot explain your position.


Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa means everything finished, void.
'''American guest:''' How is it that I cannot explain my position?


Guest: Etymologically it means "no wind."
'''Prabhupāda:''' Then explain what do you mean by ''nirvāṇa''.


Prabhupāda: Huh?
'''American guest:''' Well it's the ultimate state of consciousness.


Guest: "No wind."
'''Prabhupāda:''' Then where is ''nirvāṇa'' when you do not know the meaning of ''nirvāṇa''? ''Nirvāṇa'' means finished.


Prabhupāda: No wind?
'''American guest:''' Uh, yes. I think that . . .


Guest: The root of the word, I believe, means "no wind." There's no wind.
'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Nirvāṇa'' means everything finished, void.


Prabhupāda: No. You can derive many meanings, but nirvāṇa means, just like flame is there, extinguished, finished.
'''American guest:''' Etymologically it means "No wind."


Guest: That's not the way I understand nirvāṇa .
'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?


Prabhupāda: Huh?
'''American guest:''' "No wind."


Guest: That's not the way I understand nirvāṇa.
'''Prabhupāda:''' No wind?


Prabhupāda: But this is the meaning, dictionary meaning, nirvāṇa . Nirvāṇa means there is flame and you extinguish. This is nirvāṇa.  
'''American guest:''' The root of the word, I believe, means "No wind." There's no wind.


Devotee: You want some more vegetables and purīs?
'''Prabhupāda:''' No. You can derive many meanings, but ''nirvāṇa'' means, just like flame is there, extinguished, finished.


Prabhupāda: Give him. More, more.
'''American guest:''' That's not the way I understand ''nirvāṇa''.


Guest: Not more.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?


Devotee: Yes.
'''American guest:''' That's not the way I understand ''nirvāṇa''.


Guest: If it is an extinguishing, it's only an extinguishing of desire.
'''Prabhupāda:''' But this is the meaning, dictionary meaning, ''nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa'' means there is flame and you extinguish. This is ''nirvāṇa''.


Prabhupāda: Huh?
'''Devotee:''' (to guest) You want some more vegetables and ''purīs''?


Guest: If there's an extinguishing...
'''Prabhupāda:''' Give him. More, more.


Prabhupāda: If desire is extinguished, then what you are?
'''American guest:''' Not more.


Guest: But it's not extinguishing of desire; it's transforming of desire. Like this is one...
'''Devotee:''' Yes.


Prabhupāda: That is not extinguishing.
'''American guest:''' If it is an extinguishing, it's only an extinguishing of desire.


Guest: Right. But in the sense it is, uh, the uh, flame of, uh...
'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?


Prabhupāda: That we say. You don't extinguish desire but we purify desire. That is our... But that is not the void, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means finished.
'''American guest:''' If there's an extinguishing . . .


Guest: Well, the way, uh, the way it's interpreted, you know, by the people that practice it, is that, uh, you don't extinguish your desires either but they're transformed into the Buddha principles. They say this is the meaning of Mahayana Buddhism, is that you, uh, learn to identify the desire passions with the Buddha principles, and so they become transformed so that...
'''Prabhupāda:''' So if the desire is extinguished, then what you are?


Prabhupāda: Transformed to what?
'''American guest:''' But it's not extinguishing of desire, it's transforming of desire. Like this is one . . .


Guest: Well, for instance lust is supposed to be transformed into compassion, and the other uh, the other passion desires are transformed to something else.
'''Prabhupāda:''' That is not extinguishing.


Prabhupāda: Then it is not nirvāṇa . It is real condition. Then that is our principle. That is not nirvāṇa . Just like...
'''American guest:''' Right. But in the sense it is, uh, the, uh, flame of, uh . . .


Guest: Well, this is what I mean by nirvāṇa.  
'''Prabhupāda:''' That we say. You don't extinguish desire, but we purify desire. That is our . . . but that is not the void, ''nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa'' means finished.


Prabhupāda: You mean, but you the word nirvāṇa . Suppose I take out your eyes. This is one thing. And I...
'''American guest:''' Well, the way, uh, the way it's interpreted, you know, by the people that practice it is that, uh, you don't extinguish your desires either, but they're transformed into the Buddha principles. They say this is the meaning of Mahayana Buddhism, is that you, uh, learn to identify the desire passions with the Buddha principles, and so they become transformed so that . . .


Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Transformed to what?


Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that?
'''American guest:''' Well, for instance lust is supposed to be transformed into compassion, and the other, uh, the other passion desires are transformed to something else.


Devotee: Gopāla wants to see you. [break]
'''Prabhupāda:''' Then it is not ''nirvāṇa''. It is purification. Then that is our principle. That is not ''nirvāṇa''. Just like . . .


Prabhupāda: Suppose I take out your eyes. That is nirvāṇa. But if there is some disease, I cure it, that is (indistinct). Suppose cataract, cataract operation.
'''American guest:''' Well, this is what I mean by ''nirvāṇa''.


Guest: Well, um, whatever the origin, so the word may be etymologically, the way it's used by the people that I'm studying with and the way I understand the meaning of the word is a little different than meaning just uh, sheer nothingness. Sheer nothingness is supposed to be a misunderstanding of what nirvāṇa means.
'''Prabhupāda:''' You mean, but the word ''nirvāṇa'' . . . suppose I take out your eyes. This is one thing. And I . . .


Prabhupāda: Now you have to understand as it is in the dictionary.
'''Devotee:''' Śrīla Prabhupāda?


Guest: Well, as it is used by people. You have to understand it as, as it's used, you know, in uh, by, by the people who are using this word to...
'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh? What is that?


Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means, I have already explained, this is the people take, those who know Sanskrit, nirvāṇa means extinguished. Now, you may have different meaning.
'''Devotee:''' Gopāla wants to see you. (break)


Guest: Right. Words change meaning as time goes on.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Suppose I take out your eyes. That is ''nirvāṇa''. But if there is some disease, I cure it, that is purification. Suppose cataract, cataract operation.


Prabhupāda: Huh?
'''American guest:''' Well, um, whatever the origin, of the word may be etymologically, the way it's used by the people that I'm studying with and the way I understand the meaning of the word is a little different than meaning just, uh, sheer nothingness. Sheer nothingness is supposed to be a misunderstanding of what nirvāṇa means.


Guest: Words, I mean their root may be one thing, but then as time goes on the, uh, word doesn't remain, uh, the same as used by uh...
'''Prabhupāda:''' Now you have to understand as it is in the dictionary.


Prabhupāda: Anyway, you can give your own meaning. What do you mean by nirvāṇa .
'''American guest:''' Well, as it is used by people. You have to understand it as . . . as it's used, you know, in, uh, by, by the people who are using this word to . . .


Guest: Nirvāṇa is identifying your, uh, ah, passion desires with the innate Buddha principles, in this system.
'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa'' means, I have already explained—this is the people take, those who know Sanskrit—''nirvāṇa'' means extinguished. Now, you may have different meaning.


Prabhupāda: The life symptoms?
'''American guest:''' Right. Words change meaning as time goes on.


Guest: Hm?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?


Prabhupāda: Symptoms of life?
'''American guest:''' Words, I mean their root may be one thing, but then as time goes on the, uh, word doesn't remain, uh, the same as used by, uh . . .


Guest: In this system.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Anyway, you can give your own meaning. What do you mean by ''nirvāṇa''?


Prabhupāda: System? What is that system?
'''American guest:''' ''Nirvāṇa'' is identifying your, uh, uh, passion desires with the innate Buddha principles, in this system.


Guest: The, uh, Mahayana Buddhism.
'''Prabhupāda:''' The life symptoms?


Prabhupāda: Oh. So what is that practically?
'''American guest:''' Hmm?


Guest: The practical result?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Symptoms of life?


Prabhupāda: Huh?
'''American guest:''' In this system.


Guest: The practical result is, uh.... I don't see it as being far different from Kṛṣṇa consciousness, though the approach may be different.
'''Prabhupāda:''' System? What is that system?


Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa consciousness is stress is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [[BG 18.65]] . It is directly always thinking of Kṛṣṇa.
'''American guest:''' The, uh, Mahayana Buddhism.


Guest: So that is...
'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh. So what is that practically?


Prabhupāda: To offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa, to worship Kṛṣṇa, to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
'''American guest:''' The practical result?


Guest: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?


Prabhupāda: Huh?
'''American guest:''' The practical result is, uh . . . I don't see it as being far different from Kṛṣṇa consciousness, though the approach may be different.


Guest: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa.
'''Prabhupāda:''' What Kṛṣṇa consciousness is stress is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, ''man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru'' ([[BG 18.65 (1972)|BG 18.65]]). It is directly always thinking of Kṛṣṇa.


Prabhupāda: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa, that I know, but the...
'''American guest:''' So that is . . .


Guest: So that if you...
'''Prabhupāda:''' To offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa, to worship Kṛṣṇa, to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa—this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.


Prabhupāda: ...those who Buddhist, they do not know. They do not know. We know, but they do not know. Neither they agree to believe.
'''American guest:''' Buddha is Kṛṣṇa.


Guest: So that if you're aware of Buddha, then you're aware...
'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?


Prabhupāda: But you should talk from the platform of Buddha. We know the secrecy. Our, our understanding of Buddha, that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But the Buddhists, they do not believe.
'''American guest:''' Buddha is Kṛṣṇa.


Guest: No, they've rejected the Vedas .
'''Prabhupāda:''' Buddha is Kṛṣṇa, that I know, but the . . .


Prabhupāda: Yes. But we say.
'''American guest:''' So that if you . . .


Guest: But I'm not trying to, uh, to set up, to argue sect against sect.
'''Prabhupāda:''' . . . those who Buddhist, they do not know. (guest laughs) They do not know. We know, but they do not know. Neither they agree to believe.


Prabhupāda: That's not the question. It's a question of philosophy. Here we just say, we know, just like we, we are devotee of Lord Buddha, keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare . We glorify Lord Buddha because we know what is Buddha, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. So we know perfectly that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, but those who are cheated by Buddha, from their point of view I want to know what is their perspective.
'''American guest:''' So that if you're aware of Buddha, then you're aware . . .


Guest: Now how, how, how, why would Buddha want to cheat people?
'''Prabhupāda:''' But you should talk from the platform of Buddha. We know the secrecy. Our . . . our philosophy, understanding of Buddha, that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But the Buddhists, they do not believe.


Prabhupāda: Yes, cheated because they did not believe in God. So, but he is God, he is God; therefore he says, "What I say, you believe." That means he is cheating them.
'''American guest:''' No, they've rejected the ''Vedas''.


Guest: He didn't say that.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. But we say.


Prabhupāda: Huh?
'''American guest:''' But I'm not trying to, uh, to set up . . . to argue sect against sect.


Guest: Buddha didn't say that.
'''Prabhupāda:''' That's not the question. It's a question of philosophy. Here we . . . (indistinct) . . . we know, just like we, we are devotee of Lord Buddha, ''keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa har''e (Gīta-govinda). We glorify Lord Buddha because we know what is Buddha, ''sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam'' (Jayadeva Gosvāmī). So we know perfectly that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But those who are cheated by Buddha, from their point of view I want to know what is their understand.


Prabhupāda: Then why do you, why do you study Buddha philosophy?
'''American guest:''' Now how, how, how . . . why would Buddha want to cheat people?


Guest: Well he said, "You study Buddha philosophy to arrive at principles of truth," but what Buddha said...
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, cheated because they did not believe in God. So, but he is God, he is God; therefore he says: "What I say, you believe." That means he is cheating them.


Prabhupāda: That's all right. Buddha philosophy...
'''American guest:''' He didn't say that.


Guest: What Buddha said was, he says, "Don't accept anything because I tell it to you. Don't accept anything because it's been believed for a long time by many people in many different places." He says, "Only believe that which you find true for yourself, and that is for your own good and for the good of others."
'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?


Prabhupāda: But these are teachings of Buddha.
'''American guest:''' Buddha didn't say that.


Guest: Huh, but...
'''Prabhupāda:''' Then why do you . . . why do you study Buddha philosophy?


Prabhupāda: But...
'''American guest:''' Well, he said: "You study Buddha philosophy to arrive at principles of truth," but what Buddha said . . .


Guest: But he's pointing at how to arrive at principles of truth. This, this is, uh, more uh, of an independent approach. He's not uh, I don't think he was trying to cheat anybody but he was trying to...
'''Prabhupāda:''' That's all right. Buddha philosophy . . .


Prabhupāda: Not that. Cheating this sense, sometimes just so you, I cheat my child. The father is not cheater, but sometimes it is required.
'''American guest:''' What Buddha said was, he says: "Don't accept anything because I tell it to you. Don't accept anything because it's been believed for a long time by many people in many different places." He says: "Only believe that which you find true for yourself, and that is for your own good and for the good of others."


Guest: Cheating, yeah, tells him that forest leaves are made out of gold to keep the child from crying.
'''Prabhupāda:''' But these are teachings of Buddha.


Prabhupāda: Yes. So the father's cheating is not cheating, but from external point of view it is cheating. You want something, I give something. That is cheating. But that cheating is good for you. When father cheats the child, it is good for the child, but it is cheating. Therefore cheating is not always bad.
'''American guest:''' Huh, but . . .


Guest: Yes. A great Buddhist saint once said the same thing. He says that "All the scriptures and everything, it means just this, is that it's pretending that forest..."
'''Prabhupāda:''' But . . .


Prabhupāda: Good, good lessons for...
'''American guest:''' But he's pointing at how to arrive at principles of truth. This, this is, uh, more, uh, of an independent approach. He's not, uh, I don't think he was trying to cheat anybody, but he was trying to . . .


Guest: "...leaves are made out of gold to keep children from crying," meaning that you have to arrive at truth from your own self, your own understanding. Nobody can, you know, no blind following, as you yourself say. I remember correctly that you used to preach and say, uh, that uh, you shouldn't accept anything blindly.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Not that. Cheating this sense, sometimes just so you . . . I cheat my child. The father is not cheater, but sometimes it required.


Prabhupāda: That, in the Bhāgavata it is said, sammohāya sura-dviṣām [[SB 1.3.24]] . Lord Buddha appeared for cheating or bewildering the atheistic person. They do not believe in the (indistinct). They did not, did not believe in God, but God is there. Lord Buddha himself is God. Just like if I say I don't want (indistinct), but you come in a different place. So (indistinct) is there, but I am thinking it is not (indistinct). Similarly, God is there—Buddha—but they are thinking that they don't believe in God. This is cheating. God is there. They are worshiping Lord Buddha exactly as we worship Kṛṣṇa. Then is it not the same? Then how do they say they don't believe in God? They are made to believe in God in a different way. That is cheating, and it is good for them. That is written in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, sammohāya sura-dviṣām [[SB 1.3.24]] . [break] They're Australian. (Hindi conversation with another guest about Lakṣmī's position in relation to Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs ) [break]
'''American guest:''' Cheating, yeah. Tells him that forest leaves are made out of gold to keep the child from crying.


Guru Dāsa: Like Lord Caitanya, you have also showed him the right way.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. So the father's cheating is not cheating, but from external point of view it is cheating. You want something, I give something. That is cheating. But that cheating is good for you. When father cheats the child, it is good for the child, but it is cheating. Therefore cheating is not always bad.


Prabhupāda: He is on the line.
'''American guest:''' Yes. A great Buddhist saint once said the same thing. He says that, "All the scriptures and everything, it means just this, is that it's pretending that forest . . ."


Guru Dāsa: What was the discussion about Lakṣmī?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Good, good lessons for . . .


Prabhupāda: He says that Lakṣmī has no entrance in Vṛndāvana. He said that in Brahmā-saṁhitā it says lakṣmī-sahasra, so what is, what are these Lakṣmīs? So gopīs are also Lakṣmīs. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as Lakṣmī. Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa; therefore His, these girlfriends, they are also Lakṣmīs. Without Him, Lakṣmī, how she can associate with Kṛṣṇa? Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa pratibhāvitabhis [Bs. 5.37] . [break]
'''American guest:''' ". . . leaves are made out of gold to keep children from crying," meaning that you have to arrive at truth from your own self, your own understanding. Nobody can, you know, no blind following, as you yourself say. I remember correctly that you used to preach and say, uh, that, uh, you shouldn't accept anything blindly.


Harikeśa: ...communication, the only way of talking to the spiritual master to communicate is verbal talking, the only way in which one can communicate with his spiritual master?
'''Prabhupāda:''' That, in the ''Bhāgavata'' it is said, ''sammohāya sura-dviṣām'' ([[SB 1.3.24|SB 1.3.24]]). Lord Buddha appeared for cheating or bewildering the atheistic person. They do not believe in the . . . (indistinct) . . . they did not, did not believe in God, but God is there. Lord Buddha himself is God. Just like if I say I don't want Brahman . . . (indistinct) . . . but you come in a different place. So Brahman is there, but I am thinking it is not Brahman. Similarly, God is there—Buddha—but they are thinking that they don't believe in God. This is cheating. God is there. They are worshiping Lord Buddha, exactly as we worship Kṛṣṇa. Then is it not the same? Then how do they say they don't believe in God? They are made to believe in God in a different way. That is cheating, and it is good for them. That is written in ''Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam'', ''sammohāya sura-dviṣām'' ([[SB 1.3.24|SB 1.3.24]]). (break) (end)
 
Prabhupāda: No, there are more.... [break] (?) ...instruction of spiritual master, that is actually communicating.
 
Devotee: Hm. [break]
 
Harikeśa: ...which I've always been afraid to ask, because I don't know if it's proper, but you being the external manifestation of Supersoul, if we are having questions, doubts, when, in your absence, if we are receiving indications, is there any possible way that someone who is so conditioned can have any understanding of proper action in your absence? In other words, if I am in your absence and I am in great doubt, and I am praying to Supersoul to please save me somehow, if I receive some action which I must do or some course of action becomes obvious, should I trust that, considering that you're communicating with me, or...?
 
Prabhupāda: That depends on purity. If one has become pure, without any material desire, then that is possible. But if there is some material desire, we cannot expect direct communication.
 
Harikeśa: So I have much material desire.
 
Prabhupāda: I do not say you or he. This is the process. This is the process.
 
Harikeśa: But in the meantime...
 
Prabhupāda: Huh?
 
Harikeśa: ...until we have reached the pure state...
 
Prabhupāda: In the meantime it is not possible...
 
Harikeśa: Not possible.
 
Prabhupāda: ...directly.
 
Harikeśa: So we must communicate with you verbally or through letters.
 
Prabhupāda: Not with spiritual master here. You cannot concoct, "Now I am getting directly." No.
 
Harikeśa: So the nature of the communication with the spiritual master in our state is only through...
 
Prabhupāda: Spiritual master... Kṛṣṇa is also spiritual master.
 
Harikeśa: Oh.
 
Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa sends spiritual master, His representative, as you can appreciate, externally, directly. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa is already spiritual master. He could give you instruction from the very beginning. But why He is sending His representative? What is the use?
 
Harikeśa: We're not able to...
 
Prabhupāda: Ah, because unless we are completely purified, Kṛṣṇa will, does not talk directly. Therefore you have to understand Kṛṣṇa through the spiritual master.
 
Harikeśa: So when we are having doubts, the only possible way, no matter what the indications are, are simply follow your instructions in all circumstances.
 
Prabhupāda: Yes.
 
Harikeśa: Right. [break]
 
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa wanted instruction of guru, not directly.
 
Harikeśa: Kṛṣṇa's...
 
Prabhupāda: That, that I was explaining in the morning.
 
Harikeśa: Yes.
 
Prabhupāda: Yes. Caitya-guru. One has to take the order of Kṛṣṇa through the media, via media of spiritual master.
 
Harikeśa: So all of my activities, unless they are directly following your order, are more or less a concoction of my mind.
 
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...office, you cannot contact the proprietor directly. There are subordinate officers. Through them you have to take the proprietor's help. The office master is there. You have to satisfy the office master. You cannot directly approach the proprietor. If you satisfy the office master, then your promotion and other things is all right. But if you want to... I have got practical experience. One of my friend, he was working in office. So the proprietor was there and many other employees were there. So that my friend, he suggested something to the proprietor, and the proprietor immediately dismissed him: "Oh, this man want to suggest me. Dismiss immediately. Give him his pay he will require." In that I have got practical experience. He later on became so sorry. Now it is the process. So this is practical. We should not try to approach directly Kṛṣṇa. That is not the right way. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ: [[CC Madhya 13.80]] "I am the servant of the servant of." So you have to serve your immediate master, dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ, servant of the Supreme Lord. If you want to jump over the original master, that is not good. Then you will be dismissed like, like my friend.
 
Harikeśa: Associating with you is so wonderful, and yet...
 
Prabhupāda: Just like here in Vṛndāvana, I was here, as I am sitting here. I was sitting here in this very place. That was (indistinct). And when I was hungry I could take my food there, same place. So that is one thing. Just like there are many persons, but because my spiritual master wanted, so I, at seventy years old, when I thought, "Now I shall go," I went, to serve the order of my spiritual master. Otherwise I am sitting here in Vṛndāvana. I am old man, I was chanting. Therefore, because that is my first business.
 
Harikeśa: Were you just waiting to finish your books?
 
Prabhupāda: Yes. I was just creating the situation how I shall serve my spiritual master.
 
Harikeśa: Oh.
 
Prabhupāda: Not that I was trying to directly contact Kṛṣṇa. That was not my business. This is required. If anyone wants to contact directly Kṛṣṇa, that is not possible. [break]
 
Guru dāsa: If there is a devotees who are not yet purified, if the devotee is not yet purified, why is the temple president a representative of you? If we are not at the purified stage, then why is the temple president a representative of yourself?
 
Prabhupāda: To carry his order. That is purification. If you create your own atmosphere, then you become impure. If you simply carry out the order of your spiritual master, then you will be benefited. If you do your own business, that is not good. You can not do anything which is not ordered by your spiritual master. Of course, everyone should have sense. It is not that we are dull, stone. Unless it is moved, it cannot... You have got moving power. But the basic issue should be to carry out the orders of his spiritual master. That is your president. Otherwise you are not.
 
Harikeśa: Sometimes we have the experience of someone in authority who is obviously not following your instructions.
 
Prabhupāda: Hm?
 
Harikeśa: Sometimes we have the experience, someone in authority who is obviously not following your instructions.
 
Prabhupāda: That you have not to judge.
 
Harikeśa: Ah.
 
Prabhupāda: You are not to judge. You should be, you should know that this man is appointed, and he gets here by spiritual process. I must follow. You cannot judge him.
 
Harikeśa: Oh.
 
Devotee: (indistinct)
 
Prabhupāda: That is not your business, judging.
 
Harikeśa: Then we simply wait for further instructions from you and keep....
 
Prabhupāda: No further instructions.
 
Harikeśa: Ah.
 
Prabhupāda: So long he is president you must follow him. If he is wrong, that will be corrected by the spiritual master.
 
Harikeśa: Right.
 
Prabhupāda: You cannot correct him. Otherwise obedience is the first discipline. If you do not obey the representative, authority, then there cannot be any discipline. Then everything will be topsy-turvy.
 
Harikeśa: You would rather have us follow the temple president...
 
Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes.
 
Harikeśa: ...than to...
 
Prabhupāda: If he is wrong, that cannot... He will come out.
 
Harikeśa: Ah.
 
Prabhupāda: So the steps will be taken by the spiritual master. You cannot, do not try to rectify.
 
Harikeśa: Our advancement is the same?
 
Prabhupāda: Huh?
 
Harikeśa: Our advancement...
 
Prabhupāda: Yes.
 
Harikeśa: ...is going on.
 
Prabhupāda: You follow, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam [[BG 4.2]] , gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ [[BG 4.2]] , servant of the servants of the servant of, then this is our.
 
Guru dāsa: That's the consideration. Advancement is (indistinct). [break]
 
Harikeśa: I know I am making mistakes.
 
Prabhupāda: Why do you preach?
 
Harikeśa: That's my question.
 
Prabhupāda: Stop preaching.
 
Harikeśa: Ah.
 
Prabhupāda: If you know your mistakes and you're preaching, why this nonsense preaching?
 
Harikeśa: Preaching must be perfect.
 
Prabhupāda: Yes. Perfect means as you have heard from your spiritual master. (indistinct) We are not perfect, none of us, but if you perfectly follow the orders of the perfect, then you are perfect. You should not think that "I have become perfect." Caitanya Mahāprabhu also said, guru more mūrkha dekhi [[CC Adi 7.71]]. He presented Himself as fool number one. So we should always keep ourself as fool number one, that "I am not perfect. I am fool number one." But whatever I am doing I am carrying the orders of the perfect. That is my credit. I am not perfect. Suppose I give you, (indistinct), five thousand dollars. That is not my money. I am not rich man. But the money is paid by somebody else and I deliver, that's all. That is my perfection. If I don't touch it, I do not take from five hundred dollars a paise even, and I deliver it, that is my perfection. I may not be rich man, but if I deliver this amount to you, in perfect order, that is my perfection.
 
Harikeśa: Sometimes, due to my conditioning, I cannot exactly understand what you are saying.
 
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you cannot understand what I am saying, then you should ask repeat. Try to understand (indistinct), that "I cannot understand this, and explain." Put it to the immediate president or any Godbrother. If he still, if he cannot explain, if he feels unable, he can inquire to me. In this way.
 
Harikeśa: What if I don't know, I haven't understood? What if I think I have understood but I have actually not?
 
Prabhupāda: There are many things like that. So you should try to understand it fully. Why should you understand it haphazardly? You must try to understand fully. [break]
 
Harikeśa: ...position to criticize his Godbrothers, no matter what?
 
Prabhupāda: You can criticize, if you are right. You cannot criticize wrongly. [break]
 
Devotee: ...instructions rather than our sense gratification? [break]
 
Prabhupāda: It is not right that he says that. Sense gratification is wrong. You cannot gratify your senses. You have to enjoy your senses in the service of the Lord. That is perfection. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [[CC Madhya 19.170]] . That is our only business. [break]
 
Devotee (lady): Thank you. I'm leaving. [break]
 
Prabhupāda: ...hot.
 
Devotee (lady): Yes. I'm just to make very hot. [break]
 
Harikeśa: ...to increase as we become more and more pure?
 
Prabhupāda: Everyone has got that intelligence, to understand and ... (end)
 
 
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Latest revision as of 04:37, 7 February 2024

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



740316R1-VRNDAVAN - March 16, 1974 - 26:02 Minutes



Prabhupāda: . . . come with me?

American guest: Yes. When I came with you, I came back once again, and this is the second time.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

American guest: That time I stayed four months, and this time I've just arrived again.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So what is your program now?

American guest: Uh, well I came to see Nim Karoli. I didn't know you were in town, and I was down the street and I saw Gurudāsa, so I said . . . I went over and said hello to him.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

American guest: And he . . . he and Yamunā insisted that I come visit you.

Prabhupāda: Nim Karoli, how do you know him?

American guest: Well, you've heard of Richard Alpert? Er, oh, a man called Baba Ram Das? You know Richard Alpert?

Prabhupāda: Oh, Balarāma, he was here.

Devotee: Baba Ram, Baba Ram.

Devotee (2): Baba Ram Das.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Baba Ram. Tomar khabar diyeche? (They gave you food?) (break)

American guest: . . . that's the last time I saw you. From time to time I see Baba Ram.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we have got one hundred and two branches. Mexico City, we have got. I have been there. I forget the name of the street. Very nice center, Indian standard. Mexico City building almost Indian standard.

American guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And people are also almost Indian standard.

American guest: Well, Mexico and India are exactly same . . . opposite side of the world, like this.

Prabhupāda: Anti-point.

American guest: Yes. And, uh, some . . . there's a few similarities in the religion, I think, because they have a fearful goddess like Mahā-kālī.

Prabhupāda: Worship Mahā-kālī?

American guest: Like Mahā-kālī, yes. Very fearful, you know. She's, er, her head comes from two serpents' heads.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

American guest: You know, two serpents' heads are together like this, making her face, and then she wears a skirt of skulls.

Prabhupāda: Oh, skulls.

American guest: Skulls.

Prabhupāda: They're . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahā-kālī.

American guest: Like Mahā-kālī, yes.

Prabhupāda: That is worship. That is religion?

American guest: Well, before, when the Spanish were there.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

American guest: Name is Papinque.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

American guest: And she's supposed to represent the earth.

Prabhupāda: Your parents live in Mexico City?

American guest: No, not Mexico City . . . (indistinct) . . . region. I have relatives in Mexico City. When I was there this summer I went to visit one other Hindu establishment that comes down from Śaṅkarācārya.

Prabhupāda: Oh

American guest: On the street Puerto. But I didn't know you had a branch in Mexico City at the time.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

American guest: They're also vegetarians now.

Prabhupāda: Acchā? In Mexico they are vegetarians?

American guest: Well, no. Most Mexicans are not vegetarians, but this . . . these people who belong to Śaṅkarācārya sampradāya are vegetarians.

Gurudāsa: Where's the name "Maya" civilization come from?

American guest: I think it's probably just a coincidence that the name is Maya, more than, you know . . . (break)

American guest: How's your health?

Prabhupāda: Health is not very good. I am not cent percent.

Devotee: So much time . . . (indistinct) . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: This we will take more, it will not harm. But the other, if you take little less . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . ghee. Most . . . (indistinct) . . . New Zealand. In Mexico also? No.

American guest: There is good butter.

Prabhupāda: Butter?

American guest: Very good butter. I suppose you could make good ghee out of it. The butter there is, you know, like, uh . . .

Prabhupāda: Many flowers eh? There are so many flower stall.

American guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And there in Mexico there is . . . in Mexico where I saw "Mahatma Gandhi."

Devotee: That was in Mexico.

Gurudāsa: In Mexico City they have many streets named after famous men.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Gurudāsa: Yeah. Mexico City. Mahatma Gandhi.

Prabhupāda: There in the city. I saw Mahatma Gandhi Street.

American guest: Hmm, yeah. I can't remember. Maybe. There's . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: Just by the side of a flower stand. I was surprised, Mahatma Gandhi. (break)

American guest: From that illness you had when you came to India . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

American guest: When you were recovering from your stroke?

Prabhupāda: Oh.

American guest: I think you looked in better health then.

Prabhupāda: When I was . . .

American guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Since then I have no stroke.

American guest: You still have massages every day?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We have massages. One day him, one day Acyutānanda, one day . . . (break) What philosophy you are following?

American guest: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: Which philosophy you are following?

American guest: Uh, Buddha philosophy, and, uh, Vedānta and, uh, Kṛṣṇa philosophy. I have a Tibetan teacher now . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: He also teaches Kṛṣṇa?

American guest: Uh, he teaches, uh . . .

Prabhupāda: Buddha.

American guest: Buddha. Buddhism.

Prabhupāda: So how you will adjust Kṛṣṇa philosophy and Buddha philosophy?

American guest: Well, it's just a different, uh, approach. But I don't think there's any fundamental difference. I mean if you, if you, uh, have the ultimate consciousness in one, you have it in the other, too.

Prabhupāda: So there is difference. Buddha philosophy does not accept God.

American guest: Yeah. It's a atheistic approach.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

American guest: It's a atheistic approach.

Prabhupāda: No soul, no God. Our Kṛṣṇa philosophy is God, soul, and Vedānta philosophy, that is also God. So Buddha philosophy different from Vedānta philosophy and Kṛṣṇa philosophy.

American guest: The approach is different, yes.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

American guest: The approach is different.

Prabhupāda: Approach? The end is different. Now how you'll adjust Buddha philosophy and Kṛṣṇa philosophy?

American guest: There's a few, uh, paradoxes I . . . but, uh, anyway, I asked the same key question to, uh, to my, uh, Tibetan teacher, and, uh, because he was . . . he was putting down everybody else and calling everybody else except his philosophy heretics. So then I asked him, I said: "Now this experience that all those different people say that they have achieved, you know," I says, uh, "is it substantially different or not?"

Prabhupāda: Achieved?

American guest: Achieved. You know—attained.

Prabhupāda: Achieved. Oh.

American guest: And, uh, then he started to say: "Well, if they believe in an external God," or something like that, "then it is heretical." I says: "But nevertheless," I says: "uh, like in the writings of, say, Meister Eckhart or the different mystics, they all seem to describe their experience in pretty much similar terms." So I said, I asked him, "Does this mean that the experience is different or not?" So then he argued. He finally says . . . well, he didn't say it directly, but what he said is that if . . . if you want to get the experience of touching something to find out what hot is, he says you may have different motive. Like some people may do it because it's pretty, some out of curiosity or different motive. In other words, he admitted that the experience finally was the same, even though the approach was different.

Prabhupāda: If the approach is different . . . suppose if the approach is to fire. The approach may be different, but heat or light is there. So why do they approach fire? But if you are approaching something else, how the same experience will be there?

American guest: Well . . .

Prabhupāda: If you actually approach fire, then approach may be a different way, but the goal—it is fire—you will experience heat and light.

American guest: We are, approaching means . . .

Prabhupāda: But if the approach is different, then how you will experience heat and light?

American guest: Yes, but what are we approaching?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

American guest: What are we approaching?

Prabhupāda: That you have to explain.

American guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: We say . . .

American guest: The Absolute.

Prabhupāda: We say approaching Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute. We have got Kṛṣṇa's form, we have Kṛṣṇa's name, we have personal address, His pastime. Just like you know me, I know you, means I have got form, you have got form, I know your qualities, you know my qualities—therefore you know each other. But if the approach is void, then how the approach is the same? There must be something tangible; then the approach is the same.

American guest: Well, I know your philosophy, 'cause I was very intimately involved with it, but I still believe that if, uh, your, uh . . . you may have a different style, and you may call it Kṛṣṇa consciousness or you may call it nirvāṇa, but I think that ultimately it's, uh . . .

Prabhupāda: I can . . . I can explain Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but you cannot explain nirvāṇa. That is the difficulty. I can explain my position, but you cannot explain your position.

American guest: How is it that I cannot explain my position?

Prabhupāda: Then explain what do you mean by nirvāṇa.

American guest: Well it's the ultimate state of consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Then where is nirvāṇa when you do not know the meaning of nirvāṇa? Nirvāṇa means finished.

American guest: Uh, yes. I think that . . .

Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa means everything finished, void.

American guest: Etymologically it means "No wind."

Prabhupāda: Huh?

American guest: "No wind."

Prabhupāda: No wind?

American guest: The root of the word, I believe, means "No wind." There's no wind.

Prabhupāda: No. You can derive many meanings, but nirvāṇa means, just like flame is there, extinguished, finished.

American guest: That's not the way I understand nirvāṇa.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

American guest: That's not the way I understand nirvāṇa.

Prabhupāda: But this is the meaning, dictionary meaning, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means there is flame and you extinguish. This is nirvāṇa.

Devotee: (to guest) You want some more vegetables and purīs?

Prabhupāda: Give him. More, more.

American guest: Not more.

Devotee: Yes.

American guest: If it is an extinguishing, it's only an extinguishing of desire.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

American guest: If there's an extinguishing . . .

Prabhupāda: So if the desire is extinguished, then what you are?

American guest: But it's not extinguishing of desire, it's transforming of desire. Like this is one . . .

Prabhupāda: That is not extinguishing.

American guest: Right. But in the sense it is, uh, the, uh, flame of, uh . . .

Prabhupāda: That we say. You don't extinguish desire, but we purify desire. That is our . . . but that is not the void, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means finished.

American guest: Well, the way, uh, the way it's interpreted, you know, by the people that practice it is that, uh, you don't extinguish your desires either, but they're transformed into the Buddha principles. They say this is the meaning of Mahayana Buddhism, is that you, uh, learn to identify the desire passions with the Buddha principles, and so they become transformed so that . . .

Prabhupāda: Transformed to what?

American guest: Well, for instance lust is supposed to be transformed into compassion, and the other, uh, the other passion desires are transformed to something else.

Prabhupāda: Then it is not nirvāṇa. It is purification. Then that is our principle. That is not nirvāṇa. Just like . . .

American guest: Well, this is what I mean by nirvāṇa.

Prabhupāda: You mean, but the word nirvāṇa . . . suppose I take out your eyes. This is one thing. And I . . .

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that?

Devotee: Gopāla wants to see you. (break)

Prabhupāda: Suppose I take out your eyes. That is nirvāṇa. But if there is some disease, I cure it, that is purification. Suppose cataract, cataract operation.

American guest: Well, um, whatever the origin, of the word may be etymologically, the way it's used by the people that I'm studying with and the way I understand the meaning of the word is a little different than meaning just, uh, sheer nothingness. Sheer nothingness is supposed to be a misunderstanding of what nirvāṇa means.

Prabhupāda: Now you have to understand as it is in the dictionary.

American guest: Well, as it is used by people. You have to understand it as . . . as it's used, you know, in, uh, by, by the people who are using this word to . . .

Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means, I have already explained—this is the people take, those who know Sanskrit—nirvāṇa means extinguished. Now, you may have different meaning.

American guest: Right. Words change meaning as time goes on.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

American guest: Words, I mean their root may be one thing, but then as time goes on the, uh, word doesn't remain, uh, the same as used by, uh . . .

Prabhupāda: Anyway, you can give your own meaning. What do you mean by nirvāṇa?

American guest: Nirvāṇa is identifying your, uh, uh, passion desires with the innate Buddha principles, in this system.

Prabhupāda: The life symptoms?

American guest: Hmm?

Prabhupāda: Symptoms of life?

American guest: In this system.

Prabhupāda: System? What is that system?

American guest: The, uh, Mahayana Buddhism.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So what is that practically?

American guest: The practical result?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

American guest: The practical result is, uh . . . I don't see it as being far different from Kṛṣṇa consciousness, though the approach may be different.

Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa consciousness is stress is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). It is directly always thinking of Kṛṣṇa.

American guest: So that is . . .

Prabhupāda: To offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa, to worship Kṛṣṇa, to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa—this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

American guest: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

American guest: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa, that I know, but the . . .

American guest: So that if you . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . those who Buddhist, they do not know. (guest laughs) They do not know. We know, but they do not know. Neither they agree to believe.

American guest: So that if you're aware of Buddha, then you're aware . . .

Prabhupāda: But you should talk from the platform of Buddha. We know the secrecy. Our . . . our philosophy, understanding of Buddha, that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But the Buddhists, they do not believe.

American guest: No, they've rejected the Vedas.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But we say.

American guest: But I'm not trying to, uh, to set up . . . to argue sect against sect.

Prabhupāda: That's not the question. It's a question of philosophy. Here we . . . (indistinct) . . . we know, just like we, we are devotee of Lord Buddha, keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare (Gīta-govinda). We glorify Lord Buddha because we know what is Buddha, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam (Jayadeva Gosvāmī). So we know perfectly that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But those who are cheated by Buddha, from their point of view I want to know what is their understand.

American guest: Now how, how, how . . . why would Buddha want to cheat people?

Prabhupāda: Yes, cheated because they did not believe in God. So, but he is God, he is God; therefore he says: "What I say, you believe." That means he is cheating them.

American guest: He didn't say that.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

American guest: Buddha didn't say that.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you . . . why do you study Buddha philosophy?

American guest: Well, he said: "You study Buddha philosophy to arrive at principles of truth," but what Buddha said . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Buddha philosophy . . .

American guest: What Buddha said was, he says: "Don't accept anything because I tell it to you. Don't accept anything because it's been believed for a long time by many people in many different places." He says: "Only believe that which you find true for yourself, and that is for your own good and for the good of others."

Prabhupāda: But these are teachings of Buddha.

American guest: Huh, but . . .

Prabhupāda: But . . .

American guest: But he's pointing at how to arrive at principles of truth. This, this is, uh, more, uh, of an independent approach. He's not, uh, I don't think he was trying to cheat anybody, but he was trying to . . .

Prabhupāda: Not that. Cheating this sense, sometimes just so you . . . I cheat my child. The father is not cheater, but sometimes it required.

American guest: Cheating, yeah. Tells him that forest leaves are made out of gold to keep the child from crying.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So the father's cheating is not cheating, but from external point of view it is cheating. You want something, I give something. That is cheating. But that cheating is good for you. When father cheats the child, it is good for the child, but it is cheating. Therefore cheating is not always bad.

American guest: Yes. A great Buddhist saint once said the same thing. He says that, "All the scriptures and everything, it means just this, is that it's pretending that forest . . ."

Prabhupāda: Good, good lessons for . . .

American guest: ". . . leaves are made out of gold to keep children from crying," meaning that you have to arrive at truth from your own self, your own understanding. Nobody can, you know, no blind following, as you yourself say. I remember correctly that you used to preach and say, uh, that, uh, you shouldn't accept anything blindly.

Prabhupāda: That, in the Bhāgavata it is said, sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). Lord Buddha appeared for cheating or bewildering the atheistic person. They do not believe in the . . . (indistinct) . . . they did not, did not believe in God, but God is there. Lord Buddha himself is God. Just like if I say I don't want Brahman . . . (indistinct) . . . but you come in a different place. So Brahman is there, but I am thinking it is not Brahman. Similarly, God is there—Buddha—but they are thinking that they don't believe in God. This is cheating. God is there. They are worshiping Lord Buddha, exactly as we worship Kṛṣṇa. Then is it not the same? Then how do they say they don't believe in God? They are made to believe in God in a different way. That is cheating, and it is good for them. That is written in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). (break) (end)

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