Prabhupāda: Fools, they assemble together, and people are unhappy. Democracy. Eh? Communist?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: But they have some sort of democracy themselves.
Prabhupāda: They are dictators. Actually, Stalin's dictatorship was going on.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's all dictatorship.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee: Democracy is also dictatorship. Just by elections. They elect a fool...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Democracy is also dictatorship, . . . (indistinct) . . . by elections. They elect a fool. . .
Prabhupāda: (laughs)
Prabhupāda: (laughs)
Devotee: ...and then he can do whatever he wants.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . .and then he can be. . . do whatever he wants. . . . (indistinct) . . . powerful as a king. (break)
Devotee: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: The sacrifice means the animal slaughter has to be done in the mosque, is it not?
Prabhupāda: The sacrifice means the animal slaughter has to be made in the mosque, is it not?
Devotee: Yes.
Devotee: Yes. I think so.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee: It has to be made under special conditions. [break]
Devotee: It has to be made under special conditions. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...later on they turned into Vaiṣṇavas. [break] Young preachers, hopeless [break] ...real thing and people follow then everything is possible.
Prabhupāda: . . .they can be turned into Vaiṣṇavas. (break) Young preachers, hopeless (break) . . .real thing, and people follow, then everything is perfect.
Devotee: Yes, then you can rule the world.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, then you can rule the world.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break]...combined together it is very pleasing. [break] Eh?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . .side combined together it is very pleasing. (break) Eh?
Devotee: Tehran used to be very beautiful before there were so many cars. Very clean, very clear. The land, and when I was a child the land was very cheap here. So, now it is very, very expensive and very polluted with cars.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Tehran used to be very beautiful before there were so many cars. Very clear, very clear. And the land, when I was a child, the land was very, very cheap here. So now it is, everything, very, very expensive and very polluted with car.
Prabhupāda: Due to the cars?
Prabhupāda: Due to the cars?
Devotee: Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Devotee: Everyone was a farmer, now everyone is a factory worker.
Devotee: Everyone was a farmer, now everyone is a factory worker.
Devotee: Yes. It was very nice, very clear and very nice.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. So it was very nice, very clear and very nice.
Prabhupāda: Again let them become farmers. (break)
Prabhupāda: Again, let them become farmers. [break]
Ātreya Ṛṣi: The mornings were largely very cool, very cool, and during the day it was very hot. The mornings were always very clear and cool. (devotees chanting ''japa'' in background) (break)
Devotee: The mornings were very cool, very cool and during the day it was hot. The mornings were always very clear and cool. (devotees chanting japa in background)
Devotee: We're going to help him write it. (break)
Prabhupāda: In India, Tirupati, I that Deity is richer than many kings in the world. Daily, 100,000 rupees, not (indistinct), daily. [break] Which king who has got so much money? If you organize, you can take the whole income for cause of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if you are really organized. That is possible.
Prabhupāda: In India, Tirupati, I think that Deity is richer than many kings in the world. Daily, 100,000 rupees, not less, daily. (break) . . .few kings who has got so much money? If you organize, you can take the whole income for cause of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if you are really organized. That is possible.
Devotee: Where is this temple?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Where is this temple?
Prabhupāda: In South India.
Prabhupāda: In South India.
Devotee: South India.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: South India. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . and searching, searching you'll find in modern . . . (indistinct) . . . very hard penalties. For industrialists, they are making life very difficult.
Devotee: (indistinct) (barely audible) ...industrialists they are making life very difficult.
Prabhupāda: Where? Where?
Prabhupāda: Where, where?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: In India.
Devotee: In India.
Prabhupāda: In India. Oh.
Prabhupāda: In India. Oh.
Devotee: One industrialist friend, (indistinct), who has come to Tehran, I visited him. Very, very rich industrialist, he built a temple, very nice temple, (indistinct), and the government was not pleased that he has built a temple and they came in and searched his house and they gave him 20,000,000 rupees penalty.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: One industrialist friend, Patel's friend, who has come to Tehran, I visited him. Very, very rich industrialist. He built a temple, very nice temple, he said, and then the government was not pleased that he has built a temple, and they came and searched his house and gave him twenty million rupees' penalty.
Prabhupāda: For constructing a temple?
Prabhupāda: For constructing a temple?
Devotee: No, for taxes and but their real reason was they were not happy that he was spending his money constructing a temple. (indistinct)
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, for taxes and things. But their real reason was they were not happy that he was spending his money to construct a temple. I don't think even . . . (indistinct) . . . permit this Juhu Beach.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee: Juhu Beach temple?
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Devotee: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Don't mind. All the work is going on. It doesn't matter. [break] ...prayer, five times?
Guest: Well, it's the Islamic prayer five times a day but she is compressing it to three times. It's the same prayer.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Guest: Because they are permitted to say two of the prayers at noon and two of the prayers in the evening at one time, rather than spreading them through the afternoon and ...
Prabhupāda: Why are they disobeying the order of Mohammed?
Guest: Yes, they follow. It's essentially the same practice as the majority.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot amend on the words of Mohammed if you are a true Muslim.
Guest: I don't think they have meant to amend it, its just that...
Prabhupāda: Now why? There was five now they have made three. (indistinct) You cannot do that.
Guest: They maintain that, that Ali, that this was the practice of Ali. That Ali prayed at noon in the afternoon.
Guest: Ali is a representative of Mohammed.
Guest: He's the brother, brother-in-law, the son-in-law.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: Ali.
Prabhupāda: Ali, Ali.
Guest: He was...
Prabhupāda: Ali Hussein.
Guest: Hussein is his son. Ali is the cousin and the son-in-law of the prophet Mohammed. But can they feel the grace of Kṛṣṇa within this framework?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Guest: Within the framework of their dietary laws and their ah, in opening up the experience of Kṛṣṇa to them?
Prabhupāda: No. If one wants to follow Koran , let him follow strictly that. No halfway (indistinct).
Guest: Then preaching in Iran should be essentially to people who have fallen away from their traditional path.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is fallen. They are simply amending, concoction. That is not good. Why they should amend? Mohammed presented himself in what relationship with God?
Guest: With God? He presented himself as the last expression of the divine revelation in the West.
Prabhupāda: No, what was his relationship? Just like Christ, he presented himself as the son of God. So what is the position of Mohammed?
Guest: He presented himself as a man, was considered by Muslims to be the perfect man.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: And ah, he was the perfect expression of the divine manifestation in human terms. He was not a divine figure as Christ or Kṛṣṇa. He was a, ah, simply a man, and ah, he was the mouthpiece of the ah, divine word.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of Allah?
Guest: It means God, the greatest.
Prabhupāda: Greatest.
Guest: Yes, God as being the superlative of (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Eh? Mohammed is the greatest? No, he's subordinate?
Guest: No. In fact, Muslims object to their religion being called Mohammedanism because it implies that they worship Mohammed. Whereas in fact they feel that they go straight to God, to Allah, which Mohammed is simply a messenger.
Prabhupāda: That's good.
Guest: And they call their religion Islam, which means submission.
Prabhupāda: That's very good.
Guest: The Muslim is he who submits.
Prabhupāda: Then God is the greatest and we are infinite, finite, limited, we are not greatest.
Guest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And our business is to serve Him. What is that?
Guest: Our business is to serve Him? Precisely it was said last night...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: Our business is to satisfy. There is a tradition, there is a body of forty traditions, which are called the sacred traditions. One of which says, these are the words of God as enunciated through Mohammed, one of them saying that the more you strive towards Me...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: ...the more you love Me, the closer I come to you.
Prabhupāda: Then the ultimate goal is how to love God.
Guest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is our philosophy. sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [[SB 1.2.6]]. Premā pumartho mahān . This is the highest goal of life, how one has developed his love for God. And Bhāgavata says that is first-class religion which trains the followers how to love God and serve Him. That is first-class religion. Then Islam is Vaisnalam in crude form, like the Christians (indistinct) if they are sane man. I suggested that there are many churches vacant, if they give us these churches, we shall install Deity, Gaurasundara, Nitāi-Gaura and Pañca-tattva, and along with them we can worship Jesus Christ. Similarly, we can do Mohammed. But they are against this Deity worship. Yes?
Guest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Mohammedans?
Guest: Yes, with that sort of expression.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: And yet amongst the Sufi poets there is...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Juhu Beach temple? You couldn't get permit?
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) is also expression, form is also expression.
Guest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But they do not understand.
Guest: But the Sufi's do because the Sufi poets...
Prabhupāda: They have got form, worship, the Sufis?
Guest: They don't worship form as such, but they ah, they speak of it in the poetry. They say ah...in one point (indistinct) There is a meeting between (indistinct) and his spiritual master. And he asked the spiritual master (unknown language). I asked, He asked what was this current, this chain of idols that we must worship? And he replied, "So that my heart might, might mourn, lament, the dark night."
Prabhupāda: The dark night?
Guest: The dark night of ignorance...
Prabhupāda: Oh, darkness.
Guest: ...of separation from God. So that they use the form of expression, worship...
Prabhupāda: Separation, how it is possible? Separation is expressed when there is separation between man to man, man to woman. First, otherwise what is the meaning of separation?
Guest: Separation from his divine...
Prabhupāda: Yes, then it must be person. They do not believe in the Personality of Godhead?
Guest: They believe, the Sufis, see the personality of Ali.
Prabhupāda: No, I am not talking of the Sufis, I am talking of the original Islam.
Guest: The Sufis claim to be the original process.
Prabhupāda: Do they, all the Muslims accept them?
Devotee 2: There are about 780 different schools of Islam, different ideas they have.
Prabhupāda: You have to take the original, otherwise mislead.
Guest: I think the original path must be found in Sufism, it can be because that is the essence...
Prabhupāda: If the original path is followed, why it is named Sufism?
Guest: Because there were those who had fallen away from it.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: There are those who had fallen away from it. Just as in the Hindu...
Prabhupāda: Who has fallen, Islam or the Sufis?
Guest: I think the formalists have fallen away like the jñānīs in Hinduism. Just as there is a dispute between the Śaivites and the Vaiṣṇavites.
Prabhupāda: Who has fallen? The original Islam or the Sufis?
Guest: The Sufis are the original Muslims.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: The Sufis are the original Muslims.
Prabhupāda: Sufis or (indistinct).
Devotee: Sufis are the original ah...
Prabhupāda: They are original cult?
Devotee: Yes, the Sufis.
Prabhupāda: Before Mohammed?
Guest: No, springing from Mohammed.
Prabhupāda: Then how you can say it is original.
Guest: Yes, it is original. All the schools of law they develop...
Prabhupāda: If it is original, why it is named different?
Guest: Because there are those that have fallen away from it and they are the ones who use this name. The Sufis don't use this name for themselves, it's used by others who wish to condemn them.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of Sufism, literal meaning?
Guest: Well, Sufism in a sense is ah, what bhaktism is in the Hindu context.
Prabhupāda: Bhakti means to offer service to God. Does it mean?
Guest: Oh, absolutely!
Prabhupāda: Then if God is to be served, then He must be a person, otherwise where is the question of serving?
Guest: Well, the Sufis do see that, the personal aspect of the Lord.
Prabhupāda: Unless one is person, how can I serve him? I cannot serve the air or the sky. I must serve a person. Love does not exist in the sky or in the air. There must be a person, man or woman, it doesn't matter. Otherwise, where there is love? Whom to love?
Guest: The Sufis find love in these figures. For example, the Sufis in (indistinct) through the face of a beautiful woman.
Prabhupāda: Face of beautiful woman, then the materialists also find.
Guest: It's a material aspect, actually.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, Islam religion, (indistinct) reject it (indistinct). As soon as they think of form, they think of this material form, beautiful face of woman. That is degradation. Therefore, we are strict not to conceive material form. That is Vedic conception. Apāni-pādo javano grahitā. "He has no legs, no hands." This is denying the form. Next he says, Vedas says, javana grahitā . "He can accept whatever you offer to Him." That means He has, God has, no material form, but He has form, otherwise how He can accept it? How I can understand by love? So, therefore the original Islam the form is not accepted. That is Vedic description, form and formless. Formless means no material form and form means spiritual form, simultaneous. Just like I am, you are, I am within the body, but I am not this body. This form, I am not I am, but what from the form of the body has come into existence? Because I have got form. The sweater has got hand, because I have got hand. The sweater is the covering. If I haven't got form, then how the sweater has got hand, the pant has got leg? But the pant practically is not the leg, the real leg is within the pant. Similarly, this is not my form, this is like pant, leg of the pant or hand of the coat. Real form is within. Asmin dehe . That is not material form. If the real form I could see, you could see, then there would be no controversy, but they cannot see. Therefore, they say "formless". If it is formless then how the outward form comes about? How it can be? The tailor makes the coat because the man has got form. As the coat has got hand, so it is concluded that the man for whom the coat is made he has got form. How you can say without form? The difficulty is that we can see the form of the coat but we cannot see the form of the man. That is my defect in the eyes, not that the God is formless. God is not formless.
Guest: God is seen in the form of the saints.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: God is seen in the form of the saints.
Prabhupāda: That is another, that is second maybe, but God has got form. That is the conclusion, but we cannot see with the present eyes. That is described, ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ [Brs . 1.2.234]. By your, these blunt senses.... Same thing, just like I see you, but I see your body. You see me, my body, and.... But the body is there, and the soul is not there then it is lump of matter and you kick it out, nobody will protest. If a dead body is smashed with your legs or boots, nobody will say (indistinct). But so long the soul is there, if somebody is smashed like that, immediately they will protest. (indistinct). So people have no knowledge about the real form, therefore they say formless.
Devotee: When the body changes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, does that mean that also that the real form changes?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee: Because the body...
Prabhupāda: No, body changes but the spiritual form is the same.
Devotee: He is always the same. How is it that when our coat, size of the coat, changes because the body grows bigger the size of the coat is bigger?
Prabhupāda: That is spiritual form. You can take.... It can become bigger, smaller, like that.
Devotee: But the form is the same.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee: What is filling the body is consciousness. The consciousness...
Prabhupāda: You may have a big coat or small coat, overcoat, the form is the same. But for convenience (indistinct) or small coat. This has been, body has been, described as the dress so the form of the dress cannot be there unless there is form of the person who puts on the dress. How can I deny it? Because the dress has got form, the person who puts on the dress must have form. How can I deny this argument? You cannot say formless. Maybe you cannot see, that is the way, but the person must be form. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . Kṛṣṇa says, "Arjuna, you and Me and all these persons who are here, they are existing like that in the past, they are now existing, and (indistinct), they will always be (indistinct)."
Guest: Is Kṛṣṇa.... Can one say that Kṛṣṇa is the form that presents itself, of Godhead that presents itself to man and Bhagavān is the essential aspect?
Prabhupāda: Bhagavān, yes, the original.
Devotee: The same as Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Just like the sun. The sunshine is very big, but the sun globe is not so big. But which is the form, the sunshine or the sun globe?
Guest: But its the glow which reaches man because...
Prabhupāda: No, these are examples.
Guest: He can't really touch the globe because he would be consumed.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing, qualitative change. But if, there are five elements. It is made of fire, that's all. As your body is made of earth, that sun globe or sun god's body is made of fire. There are other planets also, the body is made of air. Because you do not find more than these five elements—earth, water, air, fire, sky-gross and subtle—mind, intelligence. So, subtle, the same gross, somewhere fire is prominent, somewhere water is prominent, air is prominent, somewhere earth is prominent. So here in this world, in this planet, the earth is prominent.
Guest: So, there is a distinction between permanent and the eternal?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee: Prominent.
Guest: Oh, prominent, ah ha.
Devotee: The earth is prominent.
Guest: Ah ha. It's the prominent form in this material world.
Devotee: On this earth, on this planet...
Guest: On this planet.
Devotee: ...earth is prominent amongst the five elements.
Prabhupāda: Whole world, whole universe, they are made of these five elements.
Devotee: (indistinct) of the five elements.
Guest: What is the fifth besides earth, air, fire and water?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: What is the fifth element after earth, air, fire and water?
Prabhupāda: Ether.
Guest: Ether. How does ether distinguish...?
Prabhupāda: Sky. Ether is, presence of ether, by sound.
Guest: How is ether distinct from air?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: How is ether distinct from air?
Prabhupāda: Ether you cannot feel touch, (in) air you can feel touch.
Devotee 2: Different sense perceptions. On this planet the bodies are made of earth. But there are other places on the planets, where the physical body is composed of different combinations. Say one is predominately air, another can be fire, another watery.
Guest: But is ether a gross element as well?
Devotee: Space.
Prabhupāda: Yes, space.
Devotee 2: It is space.
Guest: So, in that sense it's a gross element.
Prabhupāda: Yeah.
Devotee 2: It's perceivable by the senses as sound.
Guest: As sound.
Prabhupāda: Ether is perceived by sound. Air is perceived by touch. Then? Ether, air....
Devotee: Fire and water.
Prabhupāda: Then fire...
Devotee: You can see.
Prabhupāda: You can see by vision. Then next?
Devotee: Water.
Prabhupāda: Water, you can taste and the earth you can smell. Five senses to appreciate these five (indistinct) Alright.
Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)
{{CV_Footer|{{PAGENAME}}}}
Prabhupāda: I don't mind. Our work is going on. It doesn't matter. (end)
His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
750315MW-TEHRAN - March 15, 1975 - 05:49 Minutes
Prabhupāda: Fools, they assemble together, and people are unhappy. Democracy. Eh? Communist?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: But they have some sort of democracy themselves.
Prabhupāda: They are dictators. Actually, Stalin's dictatorship was going on.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's all dictatorship.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Democracy is also dictatorship, . . . (indistinct) . . . by elections. They elect a fool. . .
Prabhupāda: (laughs)
Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . .and then he can be. . . do whatever he wants. . . . (indistinct) . . . powerful as a king. (break)
Prabhupāda: The sacrifice means the animal slaughter has to be made in the mosque, is it not?
Devotee: Yes. I think so.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee: It has to be made under special conditions. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . .they can be turned into Vaiṣṇavas. (break) Young preachers, hopeless (break) . . .real thing, and people follow, then everything is perfect.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, then you can rule the world.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . .side combined together it is very pleasing. (break) Eh?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Tehran used to be very beautiful before there were so many cars. Very clear, very clear. And the land, when I was a child, the land was very, very cheap here. So now it is, everything, very, very expensive and very polluted with car.
Prabhupāda: Due to the cars?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Devotee: Everyone was a farmer, now everyone is a factory worker.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. So it was very nice, very clear and very nice.
Prabhupāda: Again let them become farmers. (break)
Ātreya Ṛṣi: The mornings were largely very cool, very cool, and during the day it was very hot. The mornings were always very clear and cool. (devotees chanting japa in background) (break)
Devotee: We're going to help him write it. (break)
Prabhupāda: In India, Tirupati, I think that Deity is richer than many kings in the world. Daily, 100,000 rupees, not less, daily. (break) . . .few kings who has got so much money? If you organize, you can take the whole income for cause of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if you are really organized. That is possible.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Where is this temple?
Prabhupāda: In South India.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: South India. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . and searching, searching you'll find in modern . . . (indistinct) . . . very hard penalties. For industrialists, they are making life very difficult.
Prabhupāda: Where? Where?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: In India.
Prabhupāda: In India. Oh.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: One industrialist friend, Patel's friend, who has come to Tehran, I visited him. Very, very rich industrialist. He built a temple, very nice temple, he said, and then the government was not pleased that he has built a temple, and they came and searched his house and gave him twenty million rupees' penalty.
Prabhupāda: For constructing a temple?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, for taxes and things. But their real reason was they were not happy that he was spending his money to construct a temple. I don't think even . . . (indistinct) . . . permit this Juhu Beach.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Juhu Beach temple? You couldn't get permit?
Prabhupāda: I don't mind. Our work is going on. It doesn't matter. (end)
