760901 - Conversation - Delhi

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760901ED-DELHI - September 01, 1976 - 93:06 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . required to kill somebody, he'll do that—if it is required for his sense gratification. There are many instances that a woman is addicted to another man, and she has killed her husband, killed her son. Why? Sense gratification. I have seen one woman, my Godbrother's wife, she killed her son for being implicated with another man. I have seen it. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Things which are not to be done, they do it. Why? For the matter of sense gratification. They do it. That's a fact. So therefore simply for sense gratification they are prepared to do anything. That means pāpa. It is the verdict of the court that when a man kills another man he becomes mad. Without becoming mad, a man cannot kill another man. So everything is being done which is not sanctioned because for sense gratification. The whole world business is sense gratification. And at the end, when he's little spiritually inclined, he wants to satisfy senses by thinking artificially that "I shall become God." That is the greatest sense gratification. Because remaining a small living entity I have been hampered in my sense gratification. Now let me become God so that there will be no restriction of my sense gratification. Bhagavān . . . (indistinct) . . . because he has failed to satisfy his senses remaining non-Bhagavān, now he wants to become Bhagavān. Yogī, that is also another sense gratification, that if I show some magic, if I can create little gold like this, hundreds and thousands of men will be after me and I shall live very nicely, just gratify my senses. These things are going on practically. The man who is manufacturing gold, and so many rich people are coming to his disciples and he's begging for a motorcar. If he can create gold, why he cannot create a motorcar? This is going on. Wo English me bol raha tha. (He was talking in English.) (break)

Prabhupāda: Kya apka praśna hai? Apka praśna kya hai? (Do you have any question? What is your question?)

Indian man: Baat ye hai guruji ki ek mene do teen saal pehle kisiko 5000 rupaya loan diya tha, aur usne kaha tha ki 4-5 din me vapas kar dega lekin abhi tak vapas nahi kiya. (The thing is Guruji, 2-3 years back I had given someone a loan of 5,000 rupees, and he had said that he would return it in 4-5 days but he hasn't returned it yet.)

Prabhupāda: Kaun 5000 liya tha? (Who had taken 5,000 from you?)

Indian man: Mera ek dost hai uska printing press hai. (I have a friend who runs a printing press.)

Prabhupāda: Kam kya karta hai? (What work does he do?)

Indian man: Printing ka kam karta hai wo. (He does the job of printing.) . . . (indistinct background conversation) . . .

Prabhupāda: Us praśna ko hamare pas lane se kya faida? Nahi to . . . hum kya kare? (So what is the use of getting that question to us? What can we do?)

Indian man: Nahi humne bahut koshish ki, aap sahi tarika boliye kaise usko . . . (No I tried a lot, if you could tell me what is the right way to . . . )

Prabhupāda: Hum uska tarika batayen, ye koi praśna hai? . . . Ye sab chalta hai, "hum 5000 rupaya mangte hain, aap dila dijiye to aap bada saheb ho jayiye". Ab agar wo 5000 rupaya humko milta hi nahin, aap kuch mantra laga kar usko dila dijiye tab hum manenge apko bada saheb aur nahin to nahi . . . Sadhu ka ye kam hai ki jo deta nahi usko dila de, bada saheb, mantra padke. Ye koi praśna hai sadhu ke liye. Ye sab chal raha hai. (We should say the solution, is that a question? These things are going on "I am asking for 5,000 rupees, you help me get it then you will become a big Sir". Now if I don't get that 5,000 rupees, you please do some magic and get it for me, then I shall consider you a big man, otherwise not. This is the work of a sage, who hasn't got anything, to give him something . . . Big Sir . . ., by reading some mantras. Is this a question which should be asked to a Sage? All these things are going on.) (Devotees chanting 'Hari Hari') Ye Sadhu ke pas jata hai aur: Māhārāj hamara pet me dard hai, aur sadhu usko koi dawai dega aur bada saheb. (They go to the Sage and tell him: Māhārāj I have pain in the stomach, and the sage gives him some medicine, then he would become a 'Big Sir'.)

Indian man (2): Ye adalat ka kam hai. Sadhu-santon ke pas bhagvan ka poocho, bhagvan ke bhakti ka poocho, bhagvan ke kuch smabandh ki baat karo, ye sab maya ke bat nahi. (These works are meant for the court. When you come to a Sage you must enquire about God, about devotion to God, topics related to God, and not topics related to maya.)

Indian man: Nahi mujhe jab maya milegi me Kṛṣṇa ji ko daan kar dunga na (No when I get the money, I will donate it to Kṛṣṇa.)

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa ko wo daan nahi chahiye. Ap usko bhul jaiye. (Kṛṣṇa doesn't want that money. You forget about it.)

Indian man (2): Sab to wo deta hai, ap usko kya denge? (He provides for everything. What can we give to him?)

Prabhupāda: Apko 5,000 rupaya dila den to ap Kṛṣṇa ko denge. Abhi apke pas do chaar paise jo hain wo dijiye. (If you get that 5,000 rupees you will donate it to Kṛṣṇa. But whatever little amount you have now, you donate that first.)

Indian man: Sirf yahi dukh hain mujhe aur sab . . . (This is the only sadness I have, remaining everything . . .)

Indian man (2): To usko dena hoga de diya, jab lena hai to kabhi mil jayega. (This was your time to give, so you gave. When it's your time to get, then you will get it.) . . . (indistinct conversation) . . .

Prabhupāda: Sadhu kisko bataya jata hai? Bhagvan kisko sadhu bataya hai? To 'api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ' (BG 9.30) jo bhagvat bhajan karta hai, 'ananya bhak' se wo sadhu hai. Wo māhātamā bada durlabh hai jo ki Vāsudev bhagwan ko hi sab kuch manta hai . . . 'bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ' (BG 7.19) Ye sab kaun māhātamā hai, kaun sahdhu hai iske vishay me bhagvan khud bata diya hai. Wo 'bhajate mām ananya-bhāk' wo sadhu hai. Unke pas Bhagvat bhajan karne ke liye puch sakte hain, rupaya kaise milega uske liye to aur sab . . . ye sab ajkal yahi chalta hai. (break) Sadhu ke pas, kis tarah se tapasya karni padti hai . . . kaise Bhagwan ka sanidhya labh ho sakega usko puchna chahiye. (Who is called as a Sage? Who has God declared as a sage? So 'api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ' (BG 9.30) one who sings the glories of the Lord without deviation "Ananya bhak" he is a sage. That being is very rare who considers only Lord Vasudeva to be everything . . . 'bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ' (BG 7.19) These things like: 'Who is a Saint', 'Who is a Sage', the Lord himself has explained about these things. That one who is engagegd in devotional service without any deviation "bhajate mām ananya-bhāk" is a Sage. You can ask him about how to sing glories of the Lord. For things related to how to get money and all there are other . . . these things are all going on today. (break) How to perform austerities, how to get the association of supreme Lord, these things should be asked to a Sage.)

Indian man: . . . Prabhuji ek baat hai, Bhagvan ki itni seva ki hai . . . aur main prarthana karta hoon ki mujhe aise ashirwad chahiye ki me bhagwan ko kabhi bhulun na aur jo kaam me karun unke liye karun. . . yehi mai aapse aashirvad mangta hoon. Aur kabhi gande kaam me mera dyan na jaye, sachai bolun. . . (. . . Prabhuji there is one thing, I have rendered so much service to the Lord. . . I worship God that I want this blessing: I should never forget God and whatever work I do, I should do it for him . . . also this is the blessing I seek from you. Also, my mind should never be engaged in any dirty works, I should always speak the truth . . .)

Prabhupāda: Bhagvan apko aashirvad kare.> (May the Lord bless you.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Devotees chanting 'Jay Prabhupāda')'kirtaniya sada Hari' 'satatam kirtayanto' Sab samay kirtan karo. Kam karo aur Hare Kṛṣṇa bolne me kya nuksan hai. (All the time sing the names of God. Do your work but what is the loss in saying Hare Kṛṣṇa.)

Indian man: . . . (indistinct) . . .

Prabhupāda: Karo to sahi, shuru to karo. Bhagwan bole 'satatam kirtayanto' sab samay bhagwan ka kirtan karo aur sab samay nahi hota hai to jahan tak hota hai karo, lekin karo. (break) Kirtan karo baith ke. (Do it, start at least . The Lord said: 'satatam kirtayanto' all time sing the glories of the Lord. And if it's not possible to do all time, then do as much as you can, but start doing. (break) Sit down and do kirtana.)

Indian lady: . . . (indistinct) . . .

Prabhupāda: Krodh, jaise Hanumān ji kiya tha. Jaise Hanuman ji wo Rāvan ka ghar jala diya. Bina krodh se koi kisika ghar jala sakta hai? To krodh ka aise vyavahar karo. To Rāvan ka ghar kyun jalaya? Ye bewakoof Sitā ji ko le aaya, badmash, uska ghar jala diya. Krodh . . . jo rakshas hai, bhagvan ka abhakt hai uske upar khub krodh karo. (Anger, like Hanumān ji had displayed? Like Hanumān ji had burnt down the house of Rāvana. Can anyone burn down a house without anger? So you should utilize anger in this way. So why did he burn down Rāvana's palace? This foolish rogue man kidnapped Sitā, so he burnt down his house. Whoever is demoniac, non-devotee, you should be very angry on them.)

Indian lady: Kabhi kabhi bahut jyada krodh ata hai. (I get very angry sometimes.)

Prabhupāda: Bahut karo, jab ghar jala diya to baki kya reh hai . . . Abhi krodh kitna ho sakta hai? Utna krodh kahan ayega? Ap kisika ghar jala sakti ho? Hanuman ji ne kiya tha isliye Hanumān ji ka aj tak puja karte hain, kyunki krodh kiya tha. Bichare vendanta ko nahi padha tha, padhe to jane Krodh kiya lekin Rām ke liye, apne liye nahi kiya. Krodha ka vyavahr hai bhagwan ke liye. Jo Bhagvan ko maanta nahi aur bhakt ko takalif deta hai, uske upar khub krodh kijiye, ghar jala dijiye. Krodh ka bhi vyavahr hai, krodh hai to krodh dikhao kahan tak hai krodh. (.)

Indian lady: Krodh me to anisht bhi hota hai. (In anger, we perform forbidden things sometimes.)

Prabhupāda: Anisht hoye chod tum bhagvan ke liye karo. Hum bolta hai agar tumhare pas krodh hai to usko . . . ye krodh bhagvan ke liye vyavahar karo. Jaise Hanumān ji kiya tha. Hai to Māhājan hai 'Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ' (CC Madhya 17.186) Bade-bade Māhājan bhakt log jaise kaam kiya hai . . . wo Hanumān ji ke pas krodh tha tabhi to wo kiya, to apke pas krodh hai ap bhi wese kijiye. Is prakar apka krodh jab vyavahar hojayega fir apko shanti milegi. ( When he has burnt the palace then what is left? . . . and one who does not believe in God and troubles His devotees, a lot of anger on such a person. Burnt down the house, if you have anger show it for saving devotees, for love of God. Like the great personalities (verse) and the great pastimes they performed . . .)

Indian man (2): . . . (indistinct) . . .

Prabhupāda:' Kya puch raha hai? ( What is he asking?)

Indian man: Kehta hai Bhagvan ka naam kis tarah liya jata hai mujhe batao. (He wants to know how to chant the name of the Lord.)

Prabhupāda: Kis tarah se leta hai dekhta nahi hai ap, phir kaise batayega apka jab ankh nahi hai. Ye sab kaise leta hai, din bhar kirtan karta hai. Ye koi mushkil hai kya? Dekho wo jaise karta hai waise karo, usme kya hai seekhna? Ye to baccha bhi kar lega. Us din baccha kirtan kiya na, usme seekhne ka kya hai? Jo dekhe usiko karo. Aaiye, han, aiiye. Dekh ke sikhna hota hai, jaise kaunsa bhi sevak hai . . . Hanumān ji se jake seekho . . . Jo dekh ke sikhta hai wo bada chalak hai. Ek aadmi ko zabardasti aise karo-waise karo bolne se sikhta hai to usko der lagta hai aur jo dekh ke sikhta hai jaldi seekh jata hai, wo bada chatur hai. Adarsh . . . adarsh sab cheez ka hai, wo adarsh hum le aaye, yehi humlog ka pantha hai 'Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ'(CC Madhya 17.186). Bade-bade bhakt log jaise rasta dikhaye hain usko anusaran karo sab seekh jaoge. Tarko ’pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā (CC Madhya 17.186) Ye tark karke seekhna, wo tark karenge, hum unse jyada tark karenge, koi aur humse zyada tark karega, usse koi labh nahi hai. Aur yadi ved vedanta padhenge to hum dekhenge ved me kuch aur likha hai aur doosre ved me aur kuch likha hai (CC Madhya 17.186) aur darshnik vichar karenge 'Nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam'(CC Madhya 17.186) aur ye muni ko daba nahi sakta hai to uska jo philosophy hai wo bhi thik nahi hai aise bata denge. (Now they chant, you haven't seen? Then how can I tell? Now it's okay. How do they chant the whole day? What is the difficulty in this? See how they do, you do like them, what is there to learn from this? This a child can even do. That day the children chanted, what is there to learn? What do you see you learn? Come, please come. You must see and learn whatever activity, like how Hanuman performed, learn like him . . . how it is . . . one who sees and learns is clever. If one forcibly keeps telling you to do like this, like that, then it takes time to learn. And one who sees and learns, is fast and he is intelligent. Everything has got certain principles that we have brought. This is our belief system. (verse) The great devotees have shown the path, just follow it and you will learn everything. (verse) This type of argument is of no use, I argue with you, you argue with someone more strongly then that person will argue with someone else much more strongly, what is the use? And if we study the vedanta then something else is written, some other scripture, something else is there. (verse) Those philosophers will analyze (verse))

'Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ'(CC Madhya 17.186) isiliye jo dharma vastu hai uska tattva bada gambhir hai. To kis tarah se sikha jaye? 'Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ'(CC Madhya 17.186) Bade-bade Māhājan jis tarah se rasta dikhaye hain usko follow karo. Hamare vedic niyam se sab māhān acharya hain, jaise aaj kal pehle Sri sampradaya, Rudra sampradaya, Brahma sampradaya, Kumar sampradaya, to shastra me sab bataya hai kaun-kaun mahajan hain: 'svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kumāraḥ kapilo manuḥ prahlādo janako bhīṣmo balir vaiyāsakir vayam (ŚB 6.3.20) ye sab Māhājan hain. Naradji hain, Brahmaji hain, Mahadev Shivji hain, aur Kapil hain, Manu hain, Prahlād maharaj hain, Janak māhārāj hain, Bhishmadev hain, dwadash māhājan shastra me bataya gaya hai, wo log jaise jaise kaam kiya hai us tarah se hum log anusaran karen aur unko jo adarsh hai usko follow karen. (One sage cannot suppress the other sage so their philosophy is not correct (verse) therefore . . . the fact is serious. So how should it be taught? (verse) How the great personalities have shown the path, just follow that. By our vedic injunctions, all the great personalities are teachers. As nowadays the Sri sampradaya, Rudra sampradaya, Brahma sampradaya, Kumar sampradaya. So all this is told in the scriptures, who are the great personalities, (verse) these are the great personalities. There is Narad, Brahma, Mahadev Shiva, Kapila muni, Manu, Prahlad Maharaja, Janak Maharaja, Bhismadeva, the 12 great personalities mentioned in the scriptures. The way they have stated in the scriptures, you have to follow and follow their principles.) Thank you.

Indian lady: . . .(indistinct) . . . Kalyug me kirtan se uddhar ho sakta hai. Bhagwan Kṛṣṇa Gita me kehte hain ki sthita-pragya ke liye dhyan yoga. . . (. . . by chanting the Lord's name one can be elevated. In the Gita it is said that for a person to be equipoised . . .)

Prabhupāda: Wo sthita-pragya ho jayega Rām-naam karo. Bhagvan ka naam karo, bhagvan ka smaran karo. Rām ka naam liya to Rām ka to dhyan ho jayega. Dhanurdhari Rām, Sitāji baithe hain, Hanumān ji baithe hain, Lakshman ji hain, ye sab dhyan hogaya. Kya mushkil hai. Kisi ka naam lene se uska sab kaam dhyan me aata hai ki nahin, usi prakar aap yadi Rām ka naam lenge to sath sath Rām ka dhyan bhi ho jayega (verse). Yadi aap dhyanavastit hokar ke bhagvan ko dhyan karenge to fir yogi hogaye. Aur pehle se thik thak kar liya ki Rām ka haat nahi hai, pair nahi hai, naak nahi hai, aankh nahi hai, to kis par dhyan karnege. To keval klesh hoga. (verse) Bhgavan ka dhyan kijiye, Bhagvan ka naam lijiye, jo hogaya sawar lijiye. Shastra me bataya hai (verse). Dhyan ka, meditation ka arth kya hota hai. Jo man ko sab samay bhagvan ke charan me laga deta hai ye samadhi hai. (Chant the names of the Lord and you will become equipoised. Take the names of the Lord, remember Him. If you chant the names of the Lord then meditation happens naturally. Lord Rama with bow and arrow, Sita seated next to Him, Lakshman is there, all this you can meditate on. What is the difficulty? When you take a person's name, all his activities will come to mind. Similarly if you take the Lord's name then you automatically meditate on the Lord. (verse). If you meditate with single minded devotion then you will become a yogi if you preconceive images. The Lord does not have eyes, legs, hands, then on whom will you meditate (verse). Take the name of the Lord, meditate on the Lord, everything auspicious will happen. In the scriptures it is said (verse). What is the meaning of meditation? One who focuses his mind all the time on the lotus feet of the Lord, that is trance.)

Indian man: Bhagvan ki siddhi aur moksh prapt karne ke raste ek hi hai ya alag-alag? (Are the ways of obtaining mystic powers and liberation one and the same?)

Prabhupāda: Moksh ka arth aap kya samjhte hain? (Do you understand the meaning of the word liberation?)

Indian man: Shakti, jaise shakt log hain shakti ko prapt karte hain. (Power, how . . . people acquire power.)

Prabhupāda: Shakti me moksh nahi hai. Shakti, ye material power . . . (indistinct) . . . usme moksh nahi hai. Material power usko shakti 'dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi rūpa-pati-bhājaṁ dehi' lo usko aur phas jao. Ye sab duniya me jo power chahte hain wo phas jate hain ki nahin, ye aapko maloom hai ki nahin. To duniya ka shakti labh hone se, aap phas jaiyega yahi labhi hoga. Wo to moksh nahi hai, wo to phasne wala baat hai. Shakti ye nimn star ka vyajan hai, ye duniya ka power chahte hain, jo shakti upasak hai. Ye shakti analysis karke dekhte hai aag me shakti jyada hai to agni upasak ho jate hain. Aur fir jo aag pe analysis karke dekhta hai, jo aag jo aata hai wo surya ke agni se aata hai, to surya ka upasak hai. Ye shakto. Isi tarah shakt aur kya nam hai danapatta, aur souryo . . . ye sab panch upasana hai . . . (indistinct) . . . It is gradual state. To asal me vishnu upasana hi mukhya hai. (verse) to jitna upasana hai wo sab karte-karte jab usko theek chiz maloom hoga 'ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param' (Padma Purāṇa) to sadharan vyakti nahi jante hain (verse) to sartha gatim kya hai jante nahi he isliye kabhi shakti me phas jate hain, kabhi agni me fas jate hain, pancha-upasak. Aur swayam Vishnu aa karke bata rahe hain tum ye sab chodo 'sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ' (BG 16.66) usme tumhara sab labh hai. (verse) Aur jisko Bhagwan ka krpa labh ho gaya wo aur kisika kripa nahi chahte hain. (In power there is no liberation, material power . . . there is no liberation in that. Acquire material power and get more entangled. Do not all these people who want power in this world get entangled? Do you know this or not? So if you have the material power, you will get entangled and nothing else. That is not liberation, that is entanglement. Power is a low form of energy, they want material power, they are worshippers of power. If you analyze this power and see, what power is there in fire, the path of fire. if you analyze the hand and the heat of the fire which touches it, that heat comes from the sun, so worshipers of the sun. Like this. There are five types of worshippers. So those who keep on worshiping Lord Visnu (verse), then when he gets fixed on the Lord, then he becomes a devotee (verse). This is not known to ordinary people (verse) so "sartha gatim" . These people don't know, so they get entangled in material power, and the Lord comes and tells us to abandon all this (verse) there is no benefit for you in this (verse). And one who has obtained the mercy of Visnu does not need the mercy of anyone else.)

Indian man: . . . (indistinct) . . . Ishwar darshan, bhagvan darshan kya hai? (What does the darshan of God mean?)

Prabhupāda: Pehle to aapko ye nischit karna chahiye ki kiska darshan chahte hain. Abhi to bataya na shakti, daanpatra, souryo anek prakar upasana hai. Aapko kya chahiye tab bataya jayega kis tarah se upasana karne se labh milega. (But first you must decide what you want. First you must decide whose audience you want. Just now I told you there are many types of worship. What you want, it will be told—what benefit will you get by doing worship?) First of all you must fix up what you want.

Indian man (1): What is realization?

Prabhupāda: Realization—everything is realization. If you can do business well, that is also realization.

Indian man (1): Realization of God.

Prabhupāda: Then you, if you want . . .

Indian man (1): Realization of God.

Prabhupāda: Realization of God, To wo to Bhagvan bata rahe hain (So that God is saying.), bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). So "If you want to know Me, then bhaktyā, bhakti." Ye to bataye nahi gyan se, karma se, yog se humko mil sakte hain, nahi. (It is not said that you will obtain God by knowledge, by duty, by yoga, no.) Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ. If you want to know God really, then you have to take this path, bhakti. If you want something else, that is a different thing.

yānti-deva vratā devān

pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ

bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni

mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām

(BG 9.25)

Pehle to aapko fix-up hona chahiye ki aapko chahiye kya. (First you have to decide what it is you want.)

Indian man: Aur Prabhupāda, ye sākār aur nirākār me kaafi matbhed chalta hai. Sākār samne pratyaksh murti rakne se, hriday me dhyan ekatrit karke aur kendrit karke hum puja kar sakte hain, bhakti kar sakte hain, lekin nirākār me dhyan nahi jamta hai. To apka iske bare me kya vichar hai aur . . . (And Prabhupada, there is a lot of difference of opinion in form and formless. In form, we can keep the Deity in front of us, meditate in our mind and worship the Deity and do devotion but in formless we cannot meditate. So what is your view on this and . . .)

Prabhupāda: Ye nirākār ka arth pehle samajhiye. Nirākār aakār ko nakharch kar dena, Nirākār - aakar hai baki usko nakharch karke . . . (indistinct) . . . To bhagvan jo hai wo dekhta hia baki uska aankh nahi hai. Aise ye sab vichar, to ab sochna chahihye ki aankh nahi hai to dekhta kaise hai, ye vichar karna hai (verse). Ye achaksur jo hai nirākār hai aur pashyati jo hai wo aakār. (Try to understand the meaning of the word formless first. Formless is to . . . the form, form is there but . . . like it is there in the living entities (verse). God sees through his eyes (verse) thoughts like these. So you must think that if He does not have eyes then how can He see? This thought. (verse) Without eyes is formless and pashyati is with form.) Isliye aapko nischay karna chahiye ki bhagvan dekhta hai, baki wo unka hamara jaisa aankh nahi hai, ye nirākār hai. Hum jaise dekh rahe hain, ye kamre ke bhitar sab dekh rahe hain aur diwar ke udhar kya hai dekh nahi sakte. Aur jo bhagvan hai wo sab dekhta hai (verse) sab jagah unka haat hai , pair hai. Isliye vichar karna chahiye ki bhagvan ka haat, pair sabhi hai baki hamare jaise nahin hai. Ye vichar karna chahiye. Jo ye hamara jaise hai hi nahi wo nirākār hai aur unka jo haat-pair hai wo aakār. Isliye shastra me bataya hai 'ISVARA PARAMA KRISHNA SACHIDANANDA VIGRAHA ANADIR AADIR GOVINDA SARVA KARANA KARANAM'. Unka jo vigrah hai, aakār hai wo sacidanand hai, sac-cit-anand. To jahan sacidanand kaha gaya hai ye jo sharir hai ye nirākār hai, kyunki ye jo sharir hai ye sat nahi hai, asat, (verse). Ye sharir to naash ho jayega. Bhagvan ka sharir hai baki maas-mans sharir nahi hai. Isliye bhagvan kehte hain mai jab aata hoon to ye moorkh log samjhte hai ki sadharan manushya jaisa hai 'avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā' mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). (So you have to first be sure that God can see, but he does not have eyes like us, this is formless. Like how we are able to see what is inside this room and not outside. And that God can see everything, (verse) He has hands and legs everywhere. So we must think that His hands and legs are there but not like ours. So one who is not like us is formless and one who has hands and legs has form. Hence it is said in the scriptures that (verse) God's form is Deity, is sac-cit-ananda, full of eternity, knowledge and bliss. So where it is said eternity, knowledge and bliss, then this body is formless because this body is not eternal, it is temporary (verse) This body will perish. God's form is not made of veins and bones. So God says, when I descend these rascals think that I am an ordinary person like them (verse).) Kyunki ye do haat-payr leke main aaya hoon to moorkh log samjhte hai ki hamara jaise koi vyakti hai baki wo sachidananda vigrah hai. 'sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā' (BG 4.6) ye sab vachan hai Bhagavad-Gita me. Bhagvan ka jo sharir hai wo hamara jaisa sharir nahi hai 'janma karma ca me divyam' (BG 4.9). To bhagvan ka sharir kya hai usko agar samajh jaye to wo . . . baki wo samajhta nahi hai, wo samajhta hai hamara jaisa vyakti hai aur unko ye mayavadi log kehte hai jab bhagvan aate hai to maya ka sharir dharan karke aate hain. To nirākār ka artha hota hai bhagvan ka bhautik sharir nahi hai. Bhagvan ka sharir hai sac-cit-anand vigraha. Agar sacidanand vigraha nahi hota to 7 varsh ke umar me koi pahad utha sakta hai, boliye. (I am blissful and have appeared with hands and legs, so these rascals think that He is a person like us. (verse). All these statements are given in the Bhagavad-gita. The form of God is not like ours. (verse) So if one understands the form of God then . . . and one who does not understand and thinks He is one like us, they are impersonalists. When God appears He comes in His maya form, this is the opinion of impersonalists. So what is formless? God does not have material form. God's form is full of eternity, knowledge and bliss. If His form was not eternal, full of knowledge and bliss then how could a 7 year old lift such a big mountain on a little finger, tell me.)

Indian man: Mera matlab ye tha prabhu ki agar puja karne baithte hain bhagvan ki moorti ya chitra ke samne, to dhyan jaldi aakarshit hota hai. Lekin agar hum bina moorti ke baithe nirakar ka dhyan karke to dhyan nahi ho pata hai. sakar ke dwara nirakar pahuchne ka. (I meant that if we sit in front of the Deity or a photo of God to worship Him, then our mind gets drawn to the Deity. But if we sit meditating on the formless, then it is not possible. Through the form to reach the formless.)

Prabhupāda: Nirakar kyo pahuchega, nirakar pahuchna nahi hai. wo aap jante nahi ki bhagvan ka aakar kya hai. wo agyan ko door kijiye. Bhagvan to nirakar hai hi nahi, sachidanand vigraha. Vigraha ka arth hota hai moorti. To bhagvan ke moorti ko aap nirakar karne kyo chahte hain. Aur jo nirakar karne ko chahte hai wo (verse) usko adhik klesh hota hai, kuch nahi milta hai. (Why reach formless, no need to reach formless. You don't know what is the form of God, remove this ignorance first. God is not formless, He is sac-cid-ananda. The meaning of the statue is Deity. Why do you want to make God's Deity formless? And one who wants to make Him formless, he suffers a lot, (verse) he does not get anything. Find out this verse.)

Indian man: Aisa shastron me bataya gaya hai . . . (It is mentioned in the scriptures in this way . . .)

Prabhupāda: Somebody, you can read? (rings bell) pehle samjhiye ki ye bhagvan nirakar nahi hai. Bhagvan ka aakar hai baki . . . (First understand that God is not formless. God has a form . . .) Somebody . . . why don't you send? What they are doing, all these rascals, that they cannot read?

Devotee: Someone should come in?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But they do not know that somebody should remain there. Why they are there? What they are doing there?

Hari-śauri: Harikeśa is typing. Pradyumna is reading Sanskrit books.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Send Pradyumna immediately. Kleśo 'dhikarataras teṣām avyaktasakta-cetasam. Kleśa. Beginning with kleśa. (devotees tries to find verse) You could not? Kleśa. K-l-e-s. Why don't you come here? And who will find out? Come here.

Devotee: Kleśo 'dhikarataras teṣām?

Prabhupāda: Why do you say that you do not find? Find out. They are not accustomed. Kleśo'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta-cetasām (BG 12.5). Ye bhagvan sway bata diya. jo nirakar bhajan karne wala hota hai uska kewal adhik klesh hota hai. to apko klesh hua to wo to hoga hi. ye to shastra me bata diya. apko sukh kaise hoga. jab shastra batata hai adhik klesha, jisko adhik klesh usko sukh kaise hoga. (This God has said. One who sings the glories of a formless God, he suffers a lot. So if you suffer, then it is bound to happen. This is told in the scripture. How will you feel happiness? When the scripture says too much suffering, then how can one who is suffering get happiness.) (Pradyumna enters) Read it.

Pradyumna:

kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām

avyaktāsakta-cetasām

avyaktā hi gatir duḥkhaṁ

dehavadbhir avāpyate

(BG 12.5)

Prabhupāda: Ah. Avyaktā hi gatir duḥkham. Avyakta chintan karne kewal dukh labh hota hai aur kuch labh nahi Read it. (If you meditate on the unmanifested form then you get only sadness, nothing else.)

Pradyumna: "For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Wo rasta ko pakadne se apko klesh adhik hoga, bhagvan khud bata rahe hain, to apko sukh kaise milega. (You are expecting happiness by thinking of impersonal form of the Lord. That is not possible. You simply get troubles, that's all. Ye to aap buddhiman hain, bhagyavan hain, jiska apko anubhav hua. Aur jo moorkh hota hai usko klesh bhi hota hai aur usi rasta me jata hai. wo janta hai usme klesh hota hai phir usi me jata hai. aisa moorkh hota hai. apko to bhagvan kripa kiya. koi chahte hain ki khushi se hum klesh uttaye, wo moorkh jati hai. ye buddhiman klesh ke rasta me kyo jaye. isme anand hota hai. bhagvan ka moorti hai, dekho kitna sundar sajaya hai, nach rahe hain, gaa rahe hain, isme anand hai. nirakar kuch nahi hai. (If you take that path then you have to suffer. God is sayng. So how will you get happiness? You are intelligent, and fortunate that you are experiencing this. And one who is foolish suffers and also goes on that path. He knows that the path is full of suffering but goes on that path. Such foolishness. God has showered His mercy on you. No one wants to take suffering happily, such people are rascals. Why does this intelligent person want to go on the path of suffering? Is there happiness? There is God's Deity, see how nicely it is decorated, they are dancing, they are singing—this is happiness, bliss. There is no formlessness.) What is the purport?

Pradyumna: "The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jñāna-yogis, and persons who are in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord, are called bhakti-yogis. Now here the difference between jñāna-yoga and bhakti-yoga is definitely expressed."

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa personally says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). To aap agyan panth ka kyo lijiye. yadi aap bhagvan ko janane ko chahte hain, bhagvan bata rahe hain 'bhaktya mam abhijanati' to aap agyan panth kyo lenge. tab apko klesh hoga (verse) to jo bhagvan bata diya hai sab rasta (verse) aap bhakton me aa sakte hain usko adhik klesh nahi. (Why do you want to take the ignorant path? If you want to know God, then God is sating "bhaktya mam abhijanati" then why will you take the path of ignorance? Then you will have suffering (verse). So the path which God has mentioned in the scriptures (verse) you can become a devotee and no more suffering.) If you like to tolerate adi-kleśa, that is your choice. Otherwise, Bhagavān, sac-cid-ānanda . . .

śrī vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-

śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau

yuktasya bhaktāṁś ca niyuñjato 'pi

vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam

Srivigraha ka aaradhan kijiye, usko sajaiye, sabko khane ko dijiye, prasad paiye, kirtan kijiye, dance kijiye, dekhiye anand milega. To anand ka path chod karke aagar klesh ka path lijiyega to ye aapke kushi ke baat. (Worship the Deity, decorate it. Feed prasadam to everyone, you also honor prasadam, perform congregational chanting, dance. You will be blissful. So if you discard the path of bliss and take the path of suffering, it is your choice.) You can accept any way. That is your choice.

ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis

'tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ

goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūto

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

(BS 5.37)

Ye sab shastra me hai. (This is in the scriptures.) Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa vigraha. Sac-cid-ānanda vigraha (BS 5.1).

Nirakar kyon? Artificially wo vigraha ko bhagvan ko nirakar karne ko kyo chahte hain. usme apko kya labh hoga. isko jawab dijiye. aap bahut accha sakar se nirakar jayenge. Jab bhagvan ka sacidananda vigraha mauzood hai aap phir, nirakar roop bhi unka hai, sabhi to wohi hai (verse). To bhagvan aakhir roop hai. to bhagvan ka roop chod karke. Jaise Suryadev hai. wo suryadev suryalok me hai aur unka sab chata. to Suryadev ka sharir ka prakash se ye sab prakash hai, to udhar se idhar aane ka jaroorat kya hai, idhar se udhar jaiye. Surya ka jo prakash hai, dhoop hai, dhoop se aahiste-aashiste suryalok me jaiye. Suryalok me jake suryadev ka darshan kariye, ye paddati hai. Aap suryalok me gaya suryadev ka darshan kiya chalo dhoop me chalo, ye kaun sa vichar hai, boliye. idhar se udhar jayenge na udhar se idhar aayenge. jisko bhakti hai usko gyan yog hai. jisko bhakti hai wo bina gyan bhakt kaise hoga. (Why formless? Why do they want to artificially make the Deity of God formless? What benefit do you get from it? Answer this. You will go very nicely from form to formless. When God's form of eternity, bliss and knowledge is there, He is also formless, He is everything. (verse). So ultimately God has form. Then why do you forget His form? Like how the sun God is there. This sun God is in the sun planet and all his rays, the sunshine from the sun's body illuminates everything. Then what is the need to come there to here, instead go from here to there. The light of the sun, sunshine—from the sunshine, he gradually enters into the sun planet. Enter into the sun's planet and have an audience with the sun, come let's go into the sunshine. What thoughts are these, tell me. Will you go from here to there or come from there to here . . . one who has devotion, has got knowledge. One who has devotion, how will it become devotion without knowledge?) Jab tak purna gyan usko nahi hota ki bhagvan ye hai (verses) jab tak apko purna gyan nahi hoga to bhagvan ko kaise samjhenge. Bhagvan ko samajhna kya sadharan baat hai (verse). To bhagvan ko samajhna koi maamuli baat hai kya. hazaron-karodo aadmi siddhi labh karne ke liye prayatn karte hain aur jo siddhi labh kiye hue hain usme abhi tak koi bhagvan ko janta nahi, Gyan purna ho jayega to bhagvan ko samajh jayenge. Jab bhagvan ko jante nahin, uske gyan ka kya mulya hai. Vo to agyan hai (verse). Ved-vedanta ko padh kar bhi yadi bhagvan ko nahi samjha, to phir apke gyan ka kya fayda hua. (Until he has complete knowledge, that God is this (verse), when you don't have knowledge, then how will you understand God? (verses) Is it an ordinary thing to understand God? (verse) So to understand God is very insignificant. Thousand crores of people are trying to obtain mystic powers and out of those who have got these powers, no one has understood God. When the knowledge is complete, then you will understand God. When you don't know God, what is the value of his knowledge? That is ignorance. (verse) Even after reading so many scriptures—the vedas, the vedanta—if one has not understood God, then what is the use of such knowledge?) Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām. Find out this verse.

bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ

tayāpahṛta-cetasām

vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ

samādhau na vidhīyate

(BG 2.44)

Dhyana vishay, bhog aiswarya nahi jiska man laga hai wo samadhi me aa sakta hai. It concerns concentration not sense gratification, one whose mind is fixed, he can go into trance. Find it out.)

Pradyumna:

bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ

tayāpahṛta-cetasām

vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ

samādhau na vidhīyate

(BG 2.44)

"In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination of devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place."

Prabhupāda: This qualification.

Surendra Kumar Saigal: Your Divine Grace, how long are you staying at Vṛndāvana?

Prabhupāda: I'm going . . . oh, Vṛndāvana? Three weeks.

Surendra Kumar Saigal: When you are . . .

Prabhupāda: Any time you are home.

Surendra Kumar Saigal: Any time which is convenient to Your Divine Grace. Shall I come over to Vṛndāvana on the 15th evening? Fifteenth evening, I'll come over to Vṛndāvana?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Surendra Kumar Saigal: And then what is the program? Your Divine Grace is coming back to Delhi from Vṛndāvana after three weeks' stay?

Prabhupāda: They have made program to go to Chandigarh.

Surendra Kumar Saigal: Chandigarh. You can . . . (indistinct) . . . Aligarh. Your Divine Grace can go to Aligarh to Delhi. The route is almost the same distance from here to Vṛndāvana. And you can go to Vṛndāvana via Aligarh. About five miles, eight miles difference. It won't cost you much mileage-wise.

Prabhupāda: Udhar . . . ka koi jhanjhat hai? (Is there any complication about this? . . .)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. The road is okay. You said we should go to Vṛndāvana via Aligarh?

Surendra Kumar Saigal: In my opinion you should. I heard that road is very bad. Five or six kilometers they have raised the road by about six, seven feet, and all this is all mud and muck, and the car skids. In my opinion, you go via Aligarh.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Or we can come to Aligarh from Vṛndāvana.

Surendra Kumar Saigal: I'm suggesting because I don't want to . . . (indistinct) . . . go back to Vṛndāvana and then come . . . (indistinct) . . . (Gopāla Kṛṣṇa converses with Indians about which road to take)

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Pradyumna: Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ . . . purport? Purport: "Samādhi means 'fixed mind.' The Vedic dictionary, the Nirukti, says, samyag ādhīyate 'sminn ātmatattva-yāthātmyam: 'When the mind is fixed for understanding the self, it is called samādhi.' Samādhi is never possible for persons interested in material sense enjoyment, nor for those who are bewildered by such temporary things. They are more or less condemned by the process of material energy."

Prabhupāda: Yehi agyan hai. thodi der ke liye jo bhautik sukh me humlog phas jate hain aur usise hamar agyan chaloo hota hai, shastra ka bhi paath karne se gyan milta hai vishesh karke Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. aap usko padh rahe hain ki nahin? (This is ignorance. For a short period we get entangled in material comforts and from then our ignorance begins. Reading the scriptures also gives us knowledge, especially Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Are you reading it or not? As far as possible try to explain it.) Prahlāda Mahārāja yehi bataye hain (verse) hamare liye to koi dukh nahi hai, hum to kahin bhi baith jayenge aur apka naam kirtan karenge. Baki hamara sochne ka jo cheez hai, ye moorkh log thode samay ke bhautik sukh ke liye itan parishram karte hain. khud to hai hi nahi, 10 sal, 20, sal, 50 sal, zyada se zyada 100 sal. bharam bolta hai na God jaisa, to ye vimudha jo hai, isme... mehsoos, ye vaishnav hai. (Prahlad Maharaj has said this (verse) there is no sorrow for us, we will sit anywhere and start singing your glories. Otherwise the thing we have to consider: these rascals are working so hard day and night for a flickering moment of happiness. They are not there—10 years, 20 years, 50 years, maximum 100 years. So this rascal, in this . . . experiences . . . this is a Vaiṣṇava.) Vimudha bataya ye log kya vastvik sukh hai jante nahi, Jaisa ek balak hai uska jo life ka jo purpose hai, education lena, use bahut kuch karna padega . . . to isi prakar hamara jivan ka uddeshya kya hai, kis liye humko manushya jivan mila hai, kya chahiye, ye sab kuch vyavasta nahi karte, kewal acchi tarah se khayenge, mazaa karenge, soyenge, maya sukhaya, acchi tarah se ye sab bhog nahi kar sakega, usme bhi bahut zhanzhat hai. sabko paisa to milta nahi, wo bhi bhagvan ki kripa se, nahi to sabhi bada aadmi ho jata tha. Ek aadmi din bhar parishram karta hai usko khane ko do roti nahi milta hai. aur ek aadmi thoda parishram karta hai aur khub paisa. ye bhagvan dene se milta hai, nischit.wo apna destiny lekar aata hai. zabardasti humko zyada parishram karne se bahut mil jayega, ye jhoot hai (verse) to tay hai apni jagah jitna hak hai, lekin dukh itna nahi, kabhi dukh bahut zyada. jisko jitna dukh milna hai wo milega, isi prakar jitna apko sukh milna hai wo milega, to uske liye prayas karna. (verse) janm-janmantar gaya bhagvan ko samajha nahi, upar-niche bahut ghoome, kabhi swarglok me gaya, kabhi nark me gaya, doondh ke aya hai. ab jo manushya jivan mila hai ab bhagvan ko koshish karo mil jayega, aur sukh-dukh ke liye tumhara jitna destiny hai wo milega. Adhik prayas karne ka koi jaroorat nahi (verse). (Can a rascal tell what is real happiness? Do these people know what is real happiness? For example a child, what is the purpose of his life? To get education, he has to achieve a lot . . . similarly what is the purpose of our life? Why have we got this human form of life? What do we want? We do not organize these matters, only eat nicely, have fun, sleep, "maya sukhaya" but he will not be able to enjoy these pleasures, there are a lot of complications in this. Everyone gets money, that is also by the mercy of God, otherwise everyone would have become a rich man. One man works hard day and night and he doesn't get a square meal a day. And another man does not put effort but gets lots of money. He gets this only if God gives it. Definitely he brings along his destiny. Forcibly if we work very hard then we will get more, that is a misconception (verse). So it is decided that one gets what is due for him. But not so much sorrow, sometimes too much suffering. How much one has to suffer, he will suffer. And similarly how much ever happiness you have to get you will get. So why work so hard? (verse). Life after life has passed and we have not understood God, we have traveled in the lower planets and the upper planets, sometimes in heavenly planets and sometimes in hellish planets, searched and came back. Now that you have got the human form of life, search for God and you will get Him. And for happiness and distress whatever is there in your destiny you will get, no need to put in an extra effort. (verse).) You have got that?

Pradyumna: Na tat-prayāsaḥ kartavyam.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Harikeśa: Some mahā-prasādam.

Prabhupāda: For me?

Harikeśa: They are offering it to you.

Prabhupāda: Na tat-prayāsaḥ kartavyam. (aside) He can go. You can go. You have . . . (indistinct) . . . now. Ye mahine ke aakhir me, is mahine ke aakhir me septmeber. (At the end of this month, at the end of this month, September.) He . . . her son—he is the father and mother—he's an Indian, in Detroit, very good boy, getting very nice. He, living in the temple, husband and wife, child we have. Bacā, ek bacā? (Children, one child?) He's getting very happy, very nice boy. Hamara shastra me Indian koi janm karta hai to udhar se hi karta hai, idhar se nahi karta hai. (In our culture, if childbirth happens, then it happens there, not here.) Just like their son, he's educated very nicely. Educated boys are joining from foreign countries, and not from here. isise kya farak. Here is Gopāla Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . he was sales manager in Coca-Cola. Usko 12000 dollar milta hai yearly, 1200 mil sakta hai, 12000 milna koi sadharan baat nahi. aisa hamara ek beta hai, wo bhi engineer hai, Yashomatinandan, gujrati, uska ma-baap hai. to do-char jo indians pade-likhe hain wo udhar se hi hai. (He gets 12,000 dollars annually, he can get 1,200, it's not unusual to get 12,000. Like this—I have a son who is an engineer, Yasomatinandana, Gujarati, he has parents. So 2 to 4 educated Indians are there. They belong to that place.) He has given . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . you have got that book? Ah . . . Stillson Judah's?

Pradyumna: No. It's in Bombay. We may have a copy in Vṛndāvana also.

Prabhupāda: One professor, Stillson Judah, he has written one book. After studying our movement five years he has written one Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture.

Surendra Kumar Saigal: Counterculture.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture. To bahut scientific research hai . . . (So a lot of scientific research is there . . .)

Pradyumna: Doesn't have a copy here. It's published by Princeton University Press. In their religion . . . in their set of volumes on different religions.

Indian woman: (indistinct Hindi) . . . prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Aiiye, aiiye, aiiye. Hare Kṛṣṇa, bahut kripa hai, prasad do. (Please come. Hare Kṛṣṇa, we are fortunate, give them prasad.) (new guest arrives) Accha nahi hai tabiyat bahut hi kharab hai. (Health is not good, very poor condition.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Mr. Patnaik (Defense Minister): How are you, sir?

Prabhupāda: Idhar aaye koi kaam tha? (You came here, any work?) You came here for some . . .

Mr. Patnaik: Yes, then I thought I would go to your old place. The . . . (indistinct) . . . this was here . . . (indistinct) . . . the old place, I didn't get any response. There was nobody there now. But when you shifted from there? There is nobody there now.

Prabhupāda: No.

Mr. Patnaik: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: And this place is better than that.

Mr. Patnaik: Very much. Oh, yes. How long you will stay?

Prabhupāda: I am going tomorrow, Vṛndāvana.

Mr. Patnaik: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: I'll be three weeks there.

Mr. Patnaik: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Still, it is Vṛndāvana. Still, it is Vṛndāvana.

Mr. Patnaik: Of course.

Prabhupāda: Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. Ye to bhagvan aradya vastu hai, brajnandan Hari. (This is a worshipable God, Brajanandana Hari.) As He is worshipable, similarly, Vṛndāvana dhāma is also worshipable. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam ramya kācid upāsana vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā va kalpitā. Upāsana, vraja-vadhū, the vraja, damsels of vrajabhūmi, the gopīs, as they worship the Lord, there is no comparison to that process of worship. Vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvana.

Mr. Patnaik: I think we are going there after Parliament session closes tomorrow . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Where? Vṛndāvana.

Mr. Patnaik: Vṛndāvana . . . (indistinct) . . . then I was told that Mathurā and . . . (indistinct) . . . full.

Prabhupāda: They spend so much money for the roadways; still it is not good.

Mr. Patnaik: Draining the different levels, question arises, the water, the excessive in quantity, and the natural drains are not efficient enough to take it out . . . (indistinct) . . . I was told that . . .

Prabhupāda: There is no sufficient outlet.

Mr. Patnaik: Yes. But some of those āśrama, Mathurā, it's very deep, that four feet water in the āśramas. Three, four feet water.

Prabhupāda: Within the āśramas?

Mr. Patnaik: And temple. You haven't recives any message from Vṛndāvana?

Pradyumna: Our temple is all right. Raman Reti is not flooded where we are. It's almost up to Fogel Ashram in the back, Yamunā, but it has not come to our Raman Reti.

Mr. Patnaik: And now you will remain here in India for some time?

Prabhupāda: That I do not know. I, actually, now it is little troublesome for me to travel all the year.

Mr. Patnaik: You are just gone from . . . (indistinct) . . . so when the guests arrive . . .

Prabhupāda: Rest, if I rest then there may be . . . because I am dealing with all neophytes. If I don't keep them alive by personal presence . . . still, they are doing nice. I have appointed twenty secretaries all over the world. I am training them. They are managing. Managing nicely. I have been in New York and Los Angeles and Hawaii, all big, big centers. London, Paris.

Mr. Patnaik: Oh, it's a very great. Your program for Kurukṣetra and etcetera and the . . .

Prabhupāda: Program was that they promised to give me a land.

Mr. Patnaik: Who?

Prabhupāda: That Chief Minister.

Mr. Patnaik: Have they done so?

Prabhupāda: Not yet.

Mr. Patnaik: I heard about two acres was available recently, except that it . . . (indistinct) . . . I wrote you that the manner in which approach was made upset those people. And the Minister, I later learned . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: We are trying for another big scheme in Bengal. We have applied to the government to acquire land, 350 acres, a big planetarium. Planetarium. We have described the planetarium in our Fifth Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In that planetarium it is said that the moon is above the sun planet, by one million six hundred thousand miles.

Mr. Patnaik: What does astronomy say? The modern astronomy.

Prabhupāda: They say the moon planet is nearer to earth planet, and they have gone there.

Mr. Patnaik: Have you given up any idea about Kurukṣetra?

Prabhupāda: No, no, not . . .

Mr. Patnaik: No, because if you have the idea, the land is the least part of it, because so much is to be done . . . (indistinct) . . . if the idea is that something should be done. I learned that gentleman, Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . and he has said that he will do something. I was not there at the time of the . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (aside) You bring one little plate prasādam from there, from that . . .

Mr. Patnaik: And you will be in Vṛndāvana for some . . .

Prabhupāda: Three weeks.

Mr. Patnaik: After that you don't know. After that where you go, you don't know.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Patnaik: Well, this is God's work, Lord Kṛṣṇa's work. I am trying . . . (indistinct) . . . to cooperate with you, because nobody can do.

Prabhupāda: No, you have done tremendous work.

Mr. Patnaik: No, but which is very little considering the situation, the condition, problem in the country. I am at a lower level than your level than your work . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: The one encouraging thing in this movement is that our books are being very much appreciated. In all universities, foreign and Indian, libraries, professors, learned scholars.

Mr. Patnaik: Yes, they'll branch out and then . . . it's a great service.

Prabhupāda: We are selling books to the extent of sixty thousand dollars daily.

Mr. Patnaik: I see.

Prabhupāda: That is our only hope, that we shall not be financially in difficulty. People are taking our books very nicely. People are accepting our literature.

Mr. Patnaik: It is not that difficulties were not there also . . . (indistinct) . . . I don't have the support, but I feel . . . (indistinct) . . . find that several places the demand for this, for the acceptance also . . . (indistinct) . . . coming forward, but not in the manner in which I had wanted . . . (indistinct) . . . lakhs of people stand against the forces which want to . . . (indistinct) . . . religion and moral side. There should be a linking up of all those who want religion to remain and morality to also be there. Those forces have to be met by also organized force from the right kind of people, religious people . . . (indistinct) . . . I hope they are not coming in your way.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Mr. Patnaik: I remember that you had written yourself that there is something we could do together. Possibly this question, building and all that, whenever it comes there. It is good to have that building and that land, but even before that, there is work to be done at the Kurukṣetra.

Prabhupāda: My point is that Kurukṣetra is the place where Bhagavad-gītā was spoken. So if we take the words of Bhagavad-gita as it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, then people will be benefitted.

Mr. Patnaik: That is basic, of course. The foundation.

Prabhupāda: But if we do not take the words of Bhagavad-gītā, then moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). That I believe. (aside) Find out this verse. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo.

Mr. Patnaik: That's true. I also believe that there must be a direct . . .

Prabhupāda: No, why not direct?

Mr. Patnaik: Putting in your interpretation, that is wrong. It should be direct. That doesn't mean only those people who have accepted this can come together.

Prabhupāda: And why the others will not accept?

Mr. Patnaik: No, we have made, you must have seen our literature, Gītā as a text, but still people may not judge . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, we should not depend on the people's acceptance only. We have to present Gītā as it is. Now everything is not accepted by everyone. Even if you make change, there is no guarantee that they will . . .

Mr. Patnaik: No, no.

Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not speaking to you. Anyone.

Mr. Patnaik: I am not trying to make a show. I believe a direct interpretation is important thing more than the other kinds of ideas and conceptions.

Pradyumna:

moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo

mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ

rākṣasīm āsurīṁ caiva

prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śrītāḥ

(BG 9.12)

"Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demoniac and atheistic views. In that deluded condition, their hopes for liberation, their fruitive activities and their culture of knowledge are all defeated."

Prabhupāda: Go on. Go on. I have given any purport?

Pradyumna: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. "There are many devotees who assume themselves to be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and devotional service but at heart do not accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, as the Absolute Truth. For them, the fruit of devotional service—going back to Godhead—will never be tasted. Similarly, those who are engaged in fruitive, pious activities and who are ultimately hoping to be liberated from this material entanglement will never be successful either, because they deride the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. In other words, persons who mock Kṛṣṇa are to be understood to be demoniac or atheistic. As described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, such demoniac miscreants never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore their mental speculations to arrive at the Absolute Truth bring them to the false conclusion that the ordinary living entity and Kṛṣṇa are one and the same. With such a false conviction, they think that the body of any human being is now simply covered by material nature and that as soon as one is liberated from this material body there is no difference between God and himself. This attempt to become one with Kṛṣṇa will be baffled because of delusion. Such atheistic and demoniac cultivation of spiritual knowledge is always futile. That is the indication of this verse. For such persons, cultivation of the knowledge in the Vedic literature, like the Vedānta-sūtra and the Upaniṣads, is always baffled."

"It is a great offense, therefore, to consider Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, to be an ordinary man. Those who do so are certainly deluded, because they cannot understand the eternal form of Kṛṣṇa. In the Bṛhad-vaiṣṇava mantra it is clearly stated that one who considers the body of Kṛṣṇa to be material should be driven out from all rituals and activities of the śruti. And if one by chance sees his face, he should at once take bath in the Ganges to rid himself of infection. People jeer at Kṛṣṇa because they are envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Their destiny is certainly to take birth after birth in the species of atheistic and demoniac life. Perpetually, their real knowledge will remain under delusion, and gradually they will regress to the darkest region of creation."

Mr. Patnaik: (indistinct) . . . I was reading this yesterday, the Eleventh Chapter.

Prabhupāda: Eleventh Chapter?

Mr. Patnaik: Eleventh Chapter, yes. There are twelve, twelve chapters. There, Kṛṣṇa Bhagavān has a dialogue with Uddhava.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Pradyumna: He's referring to Ekādaśa-skandha of the Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Uddhava.

Mr. Patnaik: And there I felt . . . I thought that maybe whenever we meet I'll bring up this question with you. 'Cause the way in which it has been translated in Hindi which I read it does create a little question as to what Bhagavān Himself said about the status of the soul, the individual soul, and relationship . . . (indistinct) . . . because although I think I should have got it, they don't give it to the Life Members . . . (indistinct)

Pradyumna: Yes, Bhāgavatam, we're up to the Seventh Canto now in the printing.

Mr. Patnaik: So this canto has come.

Pradyumna: Yes, the canto has come out. So Saptama-skandha, pādyokta. We're up to that.

Mr. Patnaik: Now, well then if it is, if the member is . . . (indistinct) . . . now in the Eleventh there is . . .

Prabhupāda: Eleventh Canto, yes. Then you will remember the verse?

Mr. Patnaik: No, no, number . . . (indistinct) . . . again and again I had gone to that, and as to that, ultimately there is no difference. As soon as this . . . (indistinct) . . . when it comes. I would like this because I belong to the sect of our country, middle sect, from Swami Narayana. He's based on Rāmānujācārya philosophy, which says that all the souls are there, they are the body of the creator Bhagavān, just as the human ātmā has this body. This means there is the difference also identity. Identity is one, and yet they have their own place. That have been the faith which I have been . . . (indistinct) . . . now in many places this sometimes this differentiation remains, sometimes there is things said which wipe it out. I thought you would be the best person to give me some guidance . . .

Prabhupāda: As you say that Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad-gita, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). We living entities, we are part and parcel of God.

Mr. Patnaik: Aṁśa.

Prabhupāda: Aṁśa. So any common man can understand what is the . . . (break) (end)