770121 - Conversation B - Bhuvanesvara

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

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770121R2-BHUVANESVARA - January 21, 1977 - 102:47 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . important worldwide movement. Very cautiously, very intelligently, we should use our resources, intelligence. This is a worldwide movement. And feeling our pressure, there is obstruction, therefore. And it is genuine. There is no doubt about it. No doubt about it. We are not going to be defeated, I am confident. And with this confidence I went to your country, that "Why Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . ." That is substance. "So many rascals are going and talking nonsense. They are becoming successful. Why not Caitanya Mahāprabhu?" That was my confi . . . otherwise I never expected that I shall be able to write so many books and it will be so much appreciated. It is wonderful appreciation. Is it not?

Rāmeśvara: Oh, yes.

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I never expected. I thought that "Who will hear me if I say all this nonsense to them?" that to them it is nonsense.

Rāmeśvara: By these apreciations . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore they say "brainwash." They cannot appreciate.

Hari-śauri: Yeah. There's never been such appreciation of one author's work before. It's just amazing.

Rāmeśvara: Even our own men are taking our mission more seriously now that these appreciations have come. They are understanding more how this is the only hope for the whole world—very grave work.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. That's a fact. Lokasyājānato vidvāṁś cakre sāt . . . find out this verse. We are giving a light which was unknown in the world. That's a fact. Lokasyājānato vidvāṁś cakre sātvata . . . anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). This is the secret of making the world happy. Anartha. Simply they have created unwanted things, and people are suffering. So in order to cut down these anarthas, unnecessary, unwanted thing, this is the only way. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. First part? No, no, it is not Bhagavad-gītā. It is the Bhāgavatam, first part.

Hari-śauri: Oh. We don't have it. We haven't got a First Canto.

Prabhupāda: Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād.

Rāmeśvara: It's like you say: it's a new culture. Our art paintings one day will be seen all over the world. Just like now they hang art paintings in all government buildings.

Prabhupāda: It was written for this purpose. People are suffering by their concocted culture. Suffering. And Guru Mahārāja wanted this. Actually it is his mission, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. But I am . . . I have tried sincerely. I am not qualified, but only qualification is that I tried to do the best, that's all. That much qualification. I had faith in their program, and I thought, "I shall try my best, whatever capacity I have got." That's all. Yasya deve parā bhaktir tathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23). Little confident that, "Why? If Caitanya Mahāprabhu wants it, my Guru Mahārāja wants it, why it will not be successful? Let me try." That's all. Mukhaṁ karoti vācālaṁ panguṁ laṅghayate girim, "A dumb man can become orator." (laughs) It is like that. I never thought that they will praise so much. What it is possible? Mukhaṁ karoti vācālam. (laughs) "A dumb man can become orator, and a lame man can cross over the mountain." Yat kṛpā tam ahaṁ vande śrī-guruṁ dīna-tāraṇam. By the mercy of guru it is possible. So these are not stories; they are facts. That is spiritual life. All right.

Rāmeśvara: Jaya Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. (break) . . . are changing. The prescription is there, but I am trying my humble way to present it. That's all. I have no power. But the, the order is there. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād. And people do not know it. Therefore this Bhāgavata is presented. Now give it to the people. Our credit should be that we are giving the statement of Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā, as it is. That's all. No adulteration, interpretation. Medicine is there already. It is not that I have manufactured the medicine. But we are administering in the proper way. Therefore it is becoming . . . we cannot make any medicine. Medicine is already there. But we don't make any adulteration. As it is, we are administering, and therefore it is coming out nice. That's all. (break) (kīrtana in background) And just like that, what is that Re . . .?

Rāmeśvara: Research how to get new sources of food.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: Reader's Digest that, "Life After Death."

Prabhupāda: "Life After . . ." They do not believe. Western countries, they do not believe there is life after death. They are making research.

Hari-śauri: But if it comes in a scientific presentation, then they accept.

Prabhupāda: What is this scientific presentation? (laughs) It is simple thing. Kṛṣṇa is giving the example, the dehāntara. A child is changing body to boyhood, boyhood . . . very simple thing. But the brain is so dull, they cannot understand.

Rāmeśvara: It is too subtle for them to see or measure with their blunt senses, so therefore they do not accept it. They think of it as just faith.

Prabhupāda: That is for less intelligent. We accept it, even we do not understand thoroughly. But Kṛṣṇa says, authority, śruti—we believe it.

Rāmeśvara: They have too much bad experience being cheated, so they don't believe anyone. In America . . .

Prabhupāda: Why you should be cheated when Kṛṣṇa says? Kṛṣṇa is not cheating.

Rāmeśvara: They would say: "How do you know God said that? Just because it is written in a book, how do you know?"

Prabhupāda: No, it is not in the book. It is accepted, all the authorities.

Rāmeśvara: But they would question everything.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing.

Gargamuni: It requires faith ultimately, some faith.

Rāmeśvara: Especially in America today . . .

Prabhupāda: Faith you must have. Because you have no faith in authority, therefore you are dull.

Rāmeśvara: Because all their authorities have cheated them. The president has cheated them, the bankers have cheated them . . .

Prabhupāda: But they are not authorities. Authorities mean those who are in the paramparā system. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam (BG 4.2).

Rāmeśvara: Of course, in America they have no experience with saintly men. There have never been a saintly man in the history of America. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.

Gargamuni: They don't know the meaning of saintliness.

Prabhupāda: But they then . . . why they accept Lord Jesus Christ? But they do not believe even Jesus Christ.

Gargamuni: No, they don't believe.

Rāmeśvara: It's like you say. Jesus said: "Thou shall not kill," and they started off by killing him.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: And ever since then, they have continued their killing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Their intelligence is so sharp. (laughs) This is the basic principle of their civilization.

Nanda-kumāra: They found some books now that they consider . . . theologians consider that they are books of the Bible that were omitted by the early Christian Church to keep the people in ignorance, whereas Jesus states very clearly, "No meat."

Rāmeśvara: What book is that?

Nanda-kumāra: The Essene Gospel of John the Baptist. It was translated from the original Aramaic scrolls. And it's in the Vatican library, but yet the Vatican doesn't . . .

Gargamuni: Yeah I've met some vegetarian Christians. I met them in Los Angeles when I was there.

Nanda-kumāra: But in this . . . Jesus stated very strong. It is very strongly vegetarian.

Hari-śauri: Yes. It says in the Acts of the Apostles, actually, they stopped the Gentiles from taking anything with blood. They were told "No blood."

Gargamuni: I have met vegetarian Christians, and they say: "Thou shalt not kill," so they don't kill anything, at least any animal.

Rāmeśvara: Very small minority.

Gargamuni: Yes. They're very small group.

Rāmeśvara: No, they are killing their own babies in defiance of the Pope.

Prabhupāda: That's all. And eating the fetus. So civilized, advanced, scientists. (laughs) Just see. Ludicrous.

Nanda-kumāra: There was another . . . they found another book where Jesus spoke about reincarnation, about transmigration of the soul, but that was also omitted by the early . . . when Jesus set up the disciplic succession . . .

Rāmeśvara: What book is that?

Nanda-kumāra: I read it in a theologians thing . . .

Gargamuni: But nobody know about these things. It's the Aquarian Gospel.

Rāmeśvara: That's not accepted.

Gargamuni: See, there's no disciplic succession, so no one can really know the actual truth.

Nanda-kumāra: Yeah, they were . . . the disciplic succession was overthrown early in the Christian church.

Hari-śauri: After sixty years they had a meeting, and then they omitted certain teachings.

Nanda-kumāra: That's when they added the philosophy that you get one chance. It's either go to heaven eternally or go to hell eternally. Jesus actually . . . some people are saying Jesus never taught anything like that, but when the early church changed everything to keep the people in ignorance and keep their own position, they added that feature, that unless the people surrendered to them they would go to hell.

Rāmeśvara: Actually there is a new movie in America which shows that Jesus was not even religious. He was political revolutionary trying to overthrow the Roman government, and his followers created the myth. And this is becoming a popular idea.

Hari-śauri: That is another concoction too. (laughs)

Gargamuni: Nobody knows, because there's no disciplic ācāryas.

Rāmeśvara: The real point of that movie is that there's no way to know anymore. Any theory now can be presented.

Hari-śauri: But at least if you look at what's there, in most of the Bibles anyway, the beginnings of Christ's movement are just like our own movement. All these men gave up all their material possessions. They went out and preached. And that was his general teaching too, that they should not worry for anything because God is supplying to everyone, even the birds and beasts. So why should they worry? Just go out and preach. That was his basic teaching to his twelve apostles.

Prabhupāda: That is faithfulness in God. Why a preacher should be bothered about maintaining himself?

Rāmeśvara: Actually, there is some good lessons to learn from them, because they were persecuted, they were killed by the government even. But they didn't give up their faith. They remained very faithful, the early Christians.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: And also later missionaries went all over the world alone, to Africa, all countries of the world, converting people, although it was very difficult. So they had a very good missionary spirit formerly. When I went to Fiji I saw many Christian churches in Fiji. Right next door to the house where Vasudeva lives there is a Christian tabernacle, and they wake up every morning at 4:30 and they have hymns—very ear . . . same practice as we have, but it's Christian hymns.

Hari-śauri: Of course along with all, that, though, they're allowed to please their senses in any way that they like. So their teaching doesn't really have much benefit for anyone. They're still doing all kinds of sinful activity. Now their idea is that if you accept Jesus, it means that you can carry on doing as many sinful activities as you like, but Jesus is going to take all the sinful reaction.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. "He died for us, so why should we suffer?" (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Jesus Christ is the contractor. They say that, "Our religion is very good. If you simply have faith in Jesus Christ, we can do anything."

Hari-śauri: "Let Christ continue suffering, and we'll enjoy."

Prabhupāda: In Aurobindo āśrama the same thing. Aurobindo said that, "You simply think of me. Then you will be pure."

Gargamuni: One of our party went to this Pondicherry. He said the whole thing is simply propaganda. There's nothing there.

Rāmeśvara: Where?

Gargamuni: In this Auroville.

Rāmeśvara: What is Auroville?

Hari-śauri: It's a village community.

Gargamuni: They're building a city. You've never heard of it? It's big, worldwide . . . Auroville. Building a city of spiritual life.

Rāmeśvara: Where? What part of the world?

Hari-śauri: Aurobindo. That's in South India on the coast, Pondicherry.

Rāmeśvara: Who goes there? Westerners?

Gargamuni: Oh, yes. That's all that's there now. But there's only about twenty of them.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Gargamuni: Yeah, very few. And they asked our men . . . because people started to become attracted and asking and looking at our books, so the in-charge asked our men, "Please leave."

Prabhupāda: Acchā?

Gargamuni: Yes.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) You are dangerous. You are dangerous.

Gargamuni: Yes. But there's nothing there. They are trying to imitate our Māyāpur project, but they have failed. Trying to make a community. And they are very much hated by the local people because they are not following any regulative principles. They drink, they smoke . . .

Prabhupāda: They drink?

Rāmeśvara: So it's just a bluff.

Gargamuni: Oh, yes. It's just a bunch of hippies now who are there. Yes, it's a complete bluff.

Prabhupāda: The Aurobindo was a hippie. (laughter) He had that long hair, and he was victimized by that mother. She brought . . . she was young, and she brought money, and Aurobindo was killed. In the beginning he had some yogic practice, but since that mother came . . . woman can conquer any rascal. (laughs) So she also . . . she conquered, and then nobody was allowed to see him in his secluded meditation. Only this mother was allowed. She would supply food, supply . . . and nobody could see. And she would give darśana only one day in the year.

Gargamuni: Yes, right. One day in the year.

Prabhupāda: He would not speak with anyone, and the disciples were advised, "Simply think of Aurobindo. You have nothing to do." So you have been there?

Gargamuni: I didn't go. But our library party, on their way to south, they stopped there because they thought maybe they could sell a standing order.

Prabhupāda: So they did not.

Gargamuni: Well, they were quite shocked to find that the whole thing is a bluff. The propaganda about this Auroville just does not exist. They only have a few houses, and it's simply a few hippies who live there.

Hari-śauri: They make it out to be such a big project.

Gargamuni: They said our Māyāpur project is more advanced.

Rāmeśvara: This is the only spiritual . . . this is the only movement now. All these other attempts have completely failed, in at least in America. All the Indian teachers that have come to America are being exposed.

Prabhupāda: But they say Transcendental Meditation is going . . .

Hari-śauri: Six million.

Rāmeśvara: Oh, that's big, because you don't have to give up anything. I met some of my old friends in New York, and I debated with them. And their philosophy is that this Transcendental Meditation is based on natural process of God consciousness, and our effort is all artificial. We are giving up meat, giving up sex—this is artificial. Their philosophy is that, "If you continue meditating, one day automatically you'll give up these things. So why do it prematurely?"

Prabhupāda: No, but if one day you have to give it up, why not prematurely?

Rāmeśvara: Give it up when you are . . . by the Transcendental Meditation, twenty minutes a day, automatically you are purifying yourself naturally. Therefore that is more perfect.

Prabhupāda: No, if I can purify immediately, what is the wrong?

Rāmeśvara: Oh, he said it creates stress. By doing it artificially you create too much stress.

Prabhupāda: "No, we don't feel any . . . we do not feel any stress. You feel, because you are unable to do it. But we don't feel it. We have given up . . . since our spiritual master has said, we have given up—immediately. But you cannot do it," say.

Rāmeśvara: That's it. And they're envious, so therefore he's trying to find fault. He says, "You are creating so much stress that you are actually blocking your mind from the higher realms of meditation."

Prabhupāda: No, that is . . . "You are saying. Our mind is not blocked. We are making progress. You are saying that because you cannot do it. That is your deficiency. We can do it immediately."

Hari-śauri: They can only do it twenty minutes a day.

Prabhupāda: If that is the goal, that you have to give up, so we give up immediately, without any difficulty.

Rāmeśvara: But they're making propaganda against this Transcendental Meditation also. The biggest Christian preacher in America—his name is Billy Graham—he is a good friend of former president Nixon and very wealthy. And he has stated publicly that this Transcendental Meditation . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . sees practically.

Gargamuni: These people, though, who follow these processes, they don't dedicate their lives. They follow it for two years, then they get married and they forget the whole thing. While they're students . . .

Prabhupāda: It is a hobby.

Gargamuni: Yes. For college. In college they do it, and when they're out of college they get married and go to work. They forget it, because of so many problems.

Rāmeśvara: Many ordinary businessmen and middle-class people have spent the money and practiced Transcendental Meditation for a little bit . . .

Gargamuni: It's a course.

Rāmeśvara: . . . and they say it has helped them. It has given them peace of mind for a little bit.

Prabhupāda: That can give temporarily.

Rāmeśvara: But there's one haṭha-yoga teacher from India who's a little well known.

Gargamuni: Yogi Bhajan?

Rāmeśvara: No. He's different. He is a sex teacher. But there is this one other haṭha-yoga teacher. I can't remember his name. He's . . . Vishnu-devananda. And he is publishing pamphlets against Maharishi that, "This is completely bogus. In the name of meditation it is completely fraud, bluff, bogus." And he mails out these pamphlets all over America. He takes out ads in the newspapers trying to expose that "This is not according to any Indian scripture."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact.

Rāmeśvara: But his movement is so nonsense, he has women sannyāsīs. Swami Māyādevī . . . (laughter) I've seen a picture of his advertisement, "Join our camp . . ."

Prabhupāda: Woman sannyāsī, Rāmakrishna Mission has.

Rāmeśvara: He's . . . what is it? Sivananda?

Gargamuni: Yes, it's the Divine Light.

Rāmeśvara: Divine Light. They advertise, "Come to our summer camp for yoga practice, and our women will teach you. They are svāmīs."

Gargamuni: His students sued him one time because he preaches brahmācārya.

Prabhupāda: I have seen their sannyāsī kissing woman on the street.

Rāmeśvara: On the street.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He came to see me in London, and I saw in the street there was some woman, he is kissing. I have seen sannyāsī.

Nanda-kumāra: This Rajneesh makes woman sannyāsīs too. They all have sex life . . .

Prabhupāda: Rajneesh make husband and wife sannyāsī. That we saw, that, in Poona?

Hari-śauri: Yes. We stayed at one man's house, and his brother was a follower of Rajneesh.

Prabhupāda: Sannyāsī.

Hari-śauri: After a day and a half Prabhupāda convinced the guy that Rajneesh was just a rascal. He came that morning we left, and he admitted Rajneesh was just a rascal and he was just cheating everyone. (laughs) "Neo-sannyāsa," they call it.

Rāmeśvara: Seems as soon as these people die—like this Sai Baba, Maharishi—then their movement will be finished.

Prabhupāda: And another rascal will come. (laughs)

Gargamuni: Now there's another Sai Baba. He has the same hairs and everything. He's in competition. He's called something else. He's also from the South.

Rāmeśvara: He does magic?

Gargamuni: Yeah. Same type of thing.

Rāmeśvara: With the ash coming from his dhotī.

Gargamuni: Yes. But Sai Baba is under fire now, because they say that he produces small things which you can hide in his robe. So they ask, "Why can't you make a big thing . . ."

Hari-śauri: Like a motorcar.

Gargamuni: . . . like, they said, a big pumpkin or something big? Why only apples and oranges and small things? (laughter) "Why don't you make a big thing?" Some scientists at Bangalore University, they have started . . .

Prabhupāda: He doesn't deny.

Gargamuni: No. He says: "I have come. You can accept me or reject me."

Nanda-kumāra: Some people say that they put a picture of him on their altar, and honey drips from the picture, and they collect it, and it gives them health.

Prabhupāda: His bodily feature is just like rākṣasa.

Devotees: Oh, yes!

Rāmeśvara: It's ugly! And in Jagannātha Purī I saw one shop which was selling pictures of him. One of the pictures he was wearing cosmetics like a woman. His hair was cropped like a woman. It was the most ugly thing I ever saw.

Hari-śauri: He was called the "Universal Mother." It's a picture of Sai Baba looking like a woman, and then they put "The Universal Mother."

Gargamuni: This Tarun Kanti Ghosh, he wears a ring, Sai Baba ring. He is wearing. We always make joke with him.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Acchā?

Gargamuni: "This is not Mahāprabhu. How you can wear this? This is foreign." So he laughs. We make joke with him, "Why you are wearing this ring? This is not in your custom to follow this."

Prabhupāda: He is hodge-podge. But he has got love for Caitanya. That will save.

Gargamuni: He does.

Rāmeśvara: But this Maharishi, he is capturing American money, but he is not using it to spread Indian culture.

Prabhupāda: Religious . . .

Rāmeśvara: You are the only one who is using that formula, "American wealth, Indian culture."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: This Maharishi is using "American wealth, Maharishi culture." I mean he's not doing anything valuable with his money.

Hari-śauri: He's increasing his own name and fame.

Prabhupāda: (to passing Indian) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Indian: Prabhu asbo? (May I come in prabhu?)

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) No, people have become so dull-headed that they are believing all these nonsense.

Hari-śauri: It is brainwashing.

Prabhupāda: No. The brainwashing . . . they are making brainwashing that, "From garbage, newspapers, scrap, they'll make food."

Hari-śauri: Oh, scientists. Acchā.

Prabhupāda: And you said that they are drinking their own urine?

Hari-śauri: Yes. The astronauts.

Prabhupāda: It is a fact?

Rāmeśvara: Yes. They recycled it.

Hari-śauri: They recycled it. After they passed urine, they put it through a machine that was supposed to purify it, and then they could drink it again.

Prabhupāda: And still, they have to go to the Mars. Just see how degraded they have become. By drinking urine, they are going to Mars and bringing report. All false propaganda to keep the prestige of the scientists.

Hari-śauri: Yes. It's just a colossal hoax.

Rāmeśvara: No, they will go on and on with their bluffs. They will try to bluff that they are creating life, just like they've bluffed they've gone to other planets.

Prabhupāda: Everything bluff. I never believed them. I never believed them. In my Easy Journey to Other . . . I have, ten years before, I have already rejected. Simply bluff.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. You've written many times in your books that we will never accept this, they have gone to other planets and found them empty.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. So both Arundhati and Pālikā, they're in period. So this girl . . .? Anu . . .

Hari-śauri: Abhirama's wife.

Prabhupāda: Wife. She knows?

Hari-śauri: She knows how to cook, yes. She got trained up by Pālikā.

Prabhupāda: In the cooker. Has she cooked today?

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This was suitable.

Rāmeśvara: What to do? Every month this happens. They both at the same time every month?

Hari-śauri: Not usually.

Prabhupāda: No . . . so the today's standard is nice. So she must take instruction or you do it. This was all right. We shall continue this standard for the time being. Yes. (pause) So if he's not come back, then wherefrom they got this puffed rice?

Hari-śauri: Well, that man from Haridaspur went and got that. That Prabhu Svarūpa, he went and got the murī.

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom?

Hari-śauri: I don't know. I couldn't make head nor tail of what he was saying.

Prabhupāda: Ask him. Is it fresh?

Hari-śauri: He just said he went out and begged some from somewhere. I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Oh, begged from some house.

Hari-śauri: (laughs) That's what I made out from him. But this boy should be back very soon. The boy that went out to do the shopping should be back very soon. They took a van.

Rāmeśvara: There was one question I had, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You have written in the third volume of the First Canto different instructions for the age of Kali, how there'll be compulsory marriage and so on and so on. And you mentioned about the gold standard. That this is very bad, this artificial standard of monetary exchange.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is very bad.

Rāmeśvara: In the future this is something that we should try to correct.

Prabhupāda: You should introduce coin, real money.

Hari-śauri: Real gold coins. No paper.

Prabhupāda: Anyone has got money . . . it is fact. And what is this nonsense, keeping some paper and thinking that he has got money? How cheating it is going on, from government's side. And therefore artificial inflation. You can print, so the price is increased. Because you haven't got to pay him real money—you print and pay him—and he will ask, "Give me this money. Then I'll supply." "All right, take." You print and pay.

Rāmeśvara: Well it's definitely a means that the government has for controlling. Because they can withdraw money, pull it back out of circulation by increasing the interest the banks give, or they can get more money in . . .

Prabhupāda: Anything done artificially.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. They control the amount of money, interest on loans. It's all standardized from what they call the Federal Reserve system. This was introduced during the Depression by the bankers.

Prabhupāda: Whatever they do, when you receive money in the paper it has no value. Bad money. It is bad money. It is not good money.

Rāmeśvara: Actually, most purchasing in America is done on credit now. Even a step beyond paper money is credit—no money, buying on no money; loans.

Prabhupāda: That is in India also.

Rāmeśvara: We don't find these things in Vedic culture too much. Now one thing is . . .

Prabhupāda: There was never paper money.

Hari-śauri: No. They used to . . .

Prabhupāda: That barter system, "You have got rice; I have got something else. So I give you something; you give me something."

Hari-śauri: But isn't inflation still possible even with coins? Even if you have gold coins, isn't inflation still possible?

Prabhupāda: No, gold is acceptable by everyone.

Rāmeśvara: The main point is the barter system.

Hari-śauri: Yes, well its value is recognized by what it can . . . by its purchasing power.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: So you can alter . . . say, you like have one gold coin. You can alter what it . . .

Prabhupāda: No. If you introduce real metal coin, then there will be no inflation.

Hari-śauri: There's only a certain amount of metal.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. The exchange . . . the more demand, more price. So suppose here is a spectacle. I am demanding ten rupees. So both of you are customer, and you are asking for this spectacle. Then I am increasing my price. So if you can pay me by printing paper, you'll accept any price. That means artificially price is increased. Is it not?

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Hari-śauri: So the idea is that with coins the man who has the goods, he can't . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore . . . suppose he has got ten coins, you have got ten coins—I am wanting fifteen coins. So there will be no competition. I have to accept either from you or you, ten coins.

Hari-śauri: Right. Because there's only that much money.

Prabhupāda: But if I increase price and if you print . . . if you have got power to print, "All right. Take fifteen coins, er, fifteen rupees." But you print and pay me. But if the gold, the coin, is there, you cannot increase on that.

Hari-śauri: He can't increase the price of the product, and the man who got . . . 'cause there's only a certain amount of money there.

Prabhupāda: But I can increase the price, provided you pay me. But by printing, it is easier, but if you have to collect coins, that will be difficult, so there will be no artificial increase of . . .

Hari-śauri: Yes. Coins is a check . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: . . . on charging too much.

Prabhupāda: That is wanted. And these rascals, they are artificially printing paper as money. And I am a rascal, I'm demanding more because I have got customer.

Rāmeśvara: The difference between Vedic culture and . . . the Kṛṣṇa conscious culture and the modern culture is very, very dramatic, very big difference. So the transforming of society . . .

Prabhupāda: And besides that, if we concentrate in farm project there will be no need of exchange, because I'll be satisfied with my products, that's all. There is no need of exchange. Whatever I need, I get in my farm.

Rāmeśvara: Weaving, cloth.

Prabhupāda: Everything you get. So I haven't got to go outside for exchange. If you are satisfied in your farm, I am satisfied, then where is question of exchange? There is no need of artificial . . . so this banking, "fanking," everything will collapse automatically. There is no money, who is going to keep money in the bank?

Hari-śauri: Who needs it?

Prabhupāda: (laughs) So this artificial way of banking, that will be also collapsed.

Hari-śauri: This is revolutionary.

Rāmeśvara: It's very hard for the mind to . . .

Prabhupāda: No, simply do this.

Rāmeśvara: Such a dramatic transformation of society.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever it may be . . . we should be satisfied locally by our food, by our cloth, by our milk. That's all. Let the whole world go to hell. We don't care. If you want to save yourself also, you do this. Here is an example. Just see. If you want artificial life, city life, and hellish life, you do. But we shall live like this. This is the ideal life.

Hari-śauri: But still, we're going out to attract people to come to our life-style.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: We're still going out to attract people to come and live like us.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Well, even more than that, we know that we have the secret to real life, so it's our duty to actually . . . just like you say . . .

Prabhupāda: That is preaching. That is preaching.

Rāmeśvara: . . . the surgeon, he must cut.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: The doctor must . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: . . . save the patient. It's his duty.

Prabhupāda: No artificial dealing. Purge out.

Hari-śauri: When one actually has the power, he can do that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: So by our preaching now, we have to try and establish a Kṛṣṇa consciousness government first through the democratic system.

Rāmeśvara: You said: "Think in terms of the whole world, not just one nation. That is our preaching." So you are training us to think very big—global.

Prabhupāda: We keep the ideal style of life. You learn, and do it. I am not encroaching upon your independence, but if you want to be happy, you follow. This is our process. Āpani ācārī prabhu jīveri śikṣāya. You be happy, very ideally, and people will learn. But this can be possible only on the basis of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you make minus Kṛṣṇa consciousness this thing, it will never be possible. Then it will not be possible. All these scheme will be successful if there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Hari-śauri: Only if the chanting and prasādam is there.

Prabhupāda: Prasādam, Deity worship, devotional life. Then it will be all right.

Hari-śauri: Yes. Gandhi could never implement his program. It was a failure.

Prabhupāda: Nobody can do. They simply . . . even . . . what is that? Marx? He could not. There is no real attraction. Artificial, by force. Here the real attraction is Kṛṣṇa. So other thing he doesn't mind, "Let there be little inconvenience. I don't mind."

Hari-śauri: A devotee is actually getting a higher taste. He's getting some real enjoyment, so he doesn't care for the other things.

Prabhupāda: So unless there is enjoyment he cannot stick. But that enjoyment is Kṛṣṇa.

Hari-śauri: Just that chanting is enough. It's just so much nectar.

Prabhupāda: No, everything—Deity worship, chanting, kīrtana, preaching, publishing, distributing—everything.

Rāmeśvara: This requires superintelligence. Just like, say, in Los Angeles there are two hundred devotees. It is taxing our brains how to give proper engagement to every one of them.

Prabhupāda: Well, this engagement is, "Go and sell books." That engagement is already there.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, but some are not qualified, some householders . . .

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of quality, of . . . it doesn't matter whether he sells one book or hundred books. It doesn't matter. Let him be engaged, that's all.

Rāmeśvara: That's what I'm saying. To find the proper engagement, the best utilization of every man's . . .

Prabhupāda: This is very good engagement, very good engagement. Go door to door. I don't mind if you no sell. But you have gone. That's all. I don't mind. It is not business that, "Because you could not sell anything, your salary will be dismissed." No. There is no such question.

Rāmeśvara: But then they feel dissatisfied. Then they would prefer to do something else, where they can perform better, they can accomplish something more.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no, no.

Hari-śauri: Our devotees tend to work on a fruitive basis.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: If they don't get some result from their activity, they become discouraged.

Rāmeśvara: In other words, sometimes . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, who said that, "You don't bring money"? But I am not discouraging you, even if you don't bring money.

Gargamuni: When we took sannyāsa, you told us to go door to door.

Prabhupāda: That's all!

Gargamuni: We brought some fruits and some change, and Prabhupāda was very satisfied.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: We went door to door for two hours.

Rāmeśvara: No, I mean it is practical that if a man comes with artistic talents, then I will try to engage him as an artist. Different talents . . .

Prabhupāda: No, engage him. There must be engagement. Either as an artist or bookseller, there must be engagement.

Rāmeśvara: According to their different talents.

Prabhupāda: Nobody should be allowed to keep himself lazy. That is not good. Niyataṁ kuru karma tvam (BG 3.8). That is . . . find out this verse. Oh, he has taken away?

Hari-śauri: Bhagavad-gītā. Oh, I can get another Gītā.

Gargamuni: And they will be successful.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not?

Gargamuni: If they are sincere, they will be successful.

Rāmeśvara: So it is little taxing . . .

Prabhupāda: Not taxing. I was doing alone this. I was printing Back to Godhead and going to the press. I was writing. I was posting.

Gargamuni: In one room you had many corners for your different projects. (chuckles)

Rāmeśvara: But if you have hundreds and hundreds of devotees in one center, then you have to be concerned with their spiritual life—how they are engaged, how they're supported.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual life . . .

Rāmeśvara: So the more people that come, the more intelligence is required to manage.

Prabhupāda: We can accommodate more people also. There is no difficulty.

Gargamuni: Our Māyāpur can hold five hundred men now.

Prabhupāda: Already?

Gargamuni: No, you said that one building . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: . . . we can hold five hundred men.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: So we are waiting for these men. If they have so many extra men for taxing, then send them here.

Rāmeśvara: No, that's not the point at all. That's not at all the point.

Gargamuni: Oh.

Hari-śauri: What was that verse again, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that verse you wanted?

Prabhupāda: Yes. What subject matter? Niyatam.

niyataṁ kuru karma tvam

karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ

śarīra-yātrāpi ca te

na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ

(BG 3.8)

Rāmeśvara: I'm thinking that by selling all these books, gradually hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of people will want us to give them some advice. They'll want to elect Kṛṣṇa conscious leaders. They'll want us to guide the society. So it will require great intelligence to . . .

Prabhupāda: First of all, we have to know where he is. Then we can give. What is his position? Then we can give him. Just like diagnosis. You have to see what is the disease. Then we give medicine.

Rāmeśvara: One of the symptoms of the disease is that all of the people are engaged in artificial work, and the whole world is interdependent. They're so . . . it is very complex system of world trade, world finance.

Prabhupāda: But we have nothing to do with that.

Rāmeśvara: But since the rest of the world is going on like that, then to transform it, it's very . . .

Prabhupāda: No, we say: "You are embarrassed. You come to us. Live with us. You get your food, and whatever service you can do, that's all right. Come here." That's all. We'll send in one of our farms or in temple. Let him be trained up. And if he is actually serious, then have engagement. There is no difficulty. "And if you want that, 'I shall work in this way,' that is not possible. You have to work in our way." Then there is unlimited opportunity.

Hari-śauri: You want that verse?

Prabhupāda: Niyata.

Hari-śauri:

niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ

karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ

śarīra-yātrāpi ca te

na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ

(BG 3.8)

"Perform your prescribed duty, for action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work."

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa never said that, "You sit down, lazy." You must work. And that is intelligence, how to engage a person in some work. That requires governing body. That is intelligence. They should be ready to work, and your intelligence will engage them. Then there is sufficient. Why you are constructing so many centers? There is enough work to do. Just like here. The all people are coming, and each one can be preached, each one can be convinced of the philosophy.

Gargamuni: In India there are 500,000 villages. So we need so many men for going.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And we want that all these village people may come daily and hear and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Gargamuni: They were in Assam, one of our traveling parties, and they met a Gauḍīya Math temple managed by Mādhava Mahārāja. And there were three or four brahmacārīs in the village, and they had the whole village actually engaged. They saw some of the activities. So they were engaged in making the village Kṛṣṇa conscious in their way. So similarly, we can do the same.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: Just like Gaura-Govinda, he's bringing many villagers here.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He's good preacher.

Hari-śauri: Yes, he's doing nicely.

Gargamuni: And there's 500,000 such villages all over India. And they're more pious. In Sundarban, when Bhavānanda went to the Sundarban jungle, they had tremendous reception.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Hari-śauri: Very good reception.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere.

Gargamuni: And yet there is no roads. There's no lights there. Nothing is there.

Prabhupāda: India is good field. Yes. India is good field.

Gargamuni: At least, we can use one hundred travel . . . you once told me and Tamāla that we should have a hundred jeeps and send them all over India—one hundred jeeps.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Now you are seeing that there is possibility of preaching. And even if he cannot speak local language, still he'll be received.

Gargamuni: Yes. And all of our magazines, at least in Bengal, are being sold within the villages. (break)

Rāmeśvara: . . . to organize the whole world to cheating, then, it seems, we can be given the intelligence to organize it for Lord Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: You can also cheat them. (chuckles) From māyā's way, bring them to Kṛṣṇa's way. That's all. That is also cheating. Tell them, "Yes, you live like this."

Gargamuni: In Assam there is excellent field.

Prabhupāda: Assam.

Gargamuni: Yes. They're all Vaiṣṇava. They worship Lord Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: Especially in Manipur.

Gargamuni: Yes. Especially in Manipur. There we could not go, though. Our men were not allowed to . . . they could not get a permit. They got as far as Shillong. They did fifteen standing orders in a few days there. They were only there for a few days. That used to be a British capital.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Gargamuni: Shillong.

Prabhupāda: Shillong, yes.

Gargamuni: A very beautiful city, they said. And they sold books to at least one dozen book stores. They took Bhagavad-gītās. They did very well in Assam. In ten days they did twenty-six standing orders in three cities—Gauhati, Shillong and then Siliguri, in northern Bengal.

Prabhupāda: This is very much astonishing that they do not touch religious book, but our books secure. (laughs)

Gargamuni: Yes. Yes. They have no budget to purchase religious books. They only want technical books. But when they see our books, they cannot say no. That has been the response.

Hari-śauri: Spiritual potency.

Prabhupāda: Technical books . . . (chuckles) Now that my nephew, Govinda, he's a watch repair.

Gargamuni: Oh, yes. He fixes our watches.

Prabhupāda: Ah. (chuckles)

Gargamuni: We go to him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughing) So he has written one book about his experience, and it is selling like anything, because it is technical. Yes. He gets for every edition three thousand, five thousand, like that. That is his extra income. But because it is technical, people purchase it.

Gargamuni: Yes. Especially in India now, that's all they want to read, is anything on technology, any field.

Rāmeśvara: They have been brainwashed.

Prabhupāda: No, in the Western country also. Western country, now this higher English, higher mathematics, higher philosophy is no student admission. Nobody's going. They're going to close.

Hari-śauri: Yeah. Philosophy and all the arts.

Prabhupāda: No, anything higher study, don't care for it.

Rāmeśvara: It's true. Technical studies and business.

Prabhupāda: Our Hayagrīva he is not getting any employment. Nobody's interested. "Eh? What is the use of higher mathematics, all these things? We have to earn money."

Rāmeśvara: Physics, computer technology, all these things are big.

Gargamuni: And they're prepared to spend lakhs. Some of these technical books cost more than a hundred rupees a volume.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They're charging.

Gargamuni: But they'll buy them.

Prabhupāda: What is the use of philosophizing? Even that Professor . . . O'Connell? He came to me that, "Why don't you give some students?" Means he's going to be dismissed very soon. But he has no students.

Hari-śauri: He came and asked Prabhupāda why don't we send our men to the university for Ph.D.'s.

Prabhupāda: I could understand his position. Now he's going to be dismissed.

Rāmeśvara: No, it's a fact that people go to college in America, but they cannot get good jobs when they graduate. If they have not taken specialized training in engineering or something . . .

Prabhupāda: That is technical, technology.

Rāmeśvara: . . . technical. But if they have a general education, they cannot get a good job.

Gargamuni: And this is . . . māyā's kick in India is that they read these books, they go to school, and when they come out there's no job.

Prabhupāda: No job.

Gargamuni: And they have to become these . . . they work in the hotels, the five stars. Hotel work.

Prabhupāda: No. There was a news, "For five hundred post there were three lakhs application."

Hari-śauri: In the railways.

Prabhupāda: In the railway. There were five hundred posts vacant, and the application was three lakhs. Every time this is the . . . many educated . . . therefore they became Naxalites.

Gargamuni: Yes. These Naxalites come from the educated classes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: What is that Naxal . . .?

Prabhupāda: Naxalite means . . .

Gargamuni: Terrorists. Communist.

Prabhupāda: Regular dacoits, thieves, rogues. "Pay me, otherwise kill you." And if you don't—"Kill you." That's all.

Rāmeśvara: That's the trend, then, everywhere, because unemployment is increasing.

Prabhupāda: And especially in your country it will be dangerous because these blacks, if they don't get a employment, they will create havoc, these blacks. And they are not civilized. They want money, and if they don't get money, then they will create havoc.

Gargamuni: Money and liquor.

Hari-śauri: Yes. If they do get money, they just buy it.

Prabhupāda: Money they get. But they can live. But there is no culture, they want liquor. So these rascals do not know how we are making human civilization. They do not see it, that without any fixed income we are maintaining such a huge establishment all over the world, without any fixed income. How we are doing? We are not thieves, we are not rogues. We are all gentlemen.

Gargamuni: In India they say the CIA is funding you.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They may say anything, but actually what we are?

Rāmeśvara: In America they are supporting the unemployed through federal and state welfare, which is paid for by tax money. So the more the unemployment increases, the more the taxes . . .

Prabhupāda: Taxes increase.

Rāmeśvara: . . . have to increase. Otherwise these people will starve.

Gargamuni: And thousands of people live off the welfare checks.

Rāmeśvara: There is big scandals in America about cheating on the welfare rolls to get free money from the government.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: That's a big scandal in America. Very difficult to control, because there are so many people involved.

Hari-śauri: I remember in England that was a big thing too, the welfare state. So many people, they're not working, and they're getting more money from the government by not working than they would by going to work. So they . . .

Gargamuni: Years ago there was a scandal in the States, and in the Midwest they found a family who was receiving a total of thirty thousand dollars a year in welfare checks.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Gargamuni: Thirty thousand dollars a year.

Rāmeśvara: This problem practically ruined Australia's economy. Five years ago Australia was a very wealthy country, and then they elected a new government, socialist government, and they began increasing all sorts of benefits, pensions, welfare benefits. And millions of people . . . not millions, but many working people stopped working, because it was easier just to get the free money. In this way . . .

Prabhupāda: So you should be very careful. Because you are giving free prasādam, similarly all lazy fellow may not come and take free prasādam. Therefore engagement must be there. Otherwise this lazy fellow will come, sleep and take prasādam.

Gargamuni: In Māyāpur we feed free during the wee . . . on Saturday, Sunday. And during the week we feed those who work. Those who work, them we feed, those who do service.

Prabhupāda: No, one day, two days, we give prasādam. But if regularly we give prasādam and they'll remain lazy.

Rāmeśvara: So in Australia they kicked out the government, completely kicked them out.

Prabhupāda: Acchā?

Rāmeśvara: And had a new government formed. Because they had created a huge debt, federal debt. They were spending much more money than they had, and they were simply increasing the taxes more and more, and the people just kicked them out.

Prabhupāda: It is closed?

Hari-śauri: Yes. The year before they got kicked out, I was distributing magazines at one political rally. The Prime Minister came to Perth. And when he came there, all the farmers came, and they were so angry, they were throwing rotten eggs at him and tin cans and all kinds of things.

Prabhupāda: The farmers.

Hari-śauri: Yeah.

Rāmeśvara: They devalued the Australian dollar very much. The Australian dollar used to be worth maybe . . .

Prabhupāda: More than American dollar.

Rāmeśvara: One dollar, forty cents.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Or one dollar, sixty cents. Now it is almost equal.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So much.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. They had to do that because their economy was ruined. He had taken away . . . this man was crazy. He had taken away all the tariffs, so that foreign countries were supplying their products in Australia, and the local businessmen . . . local manufacturers were going out of business. So many problems. And they're so proud of their modern culture, modern education and advancement, but they're being blackmailed by the Arabs. The Arab countries are considered very undeveloped, and the Western world is so proud how advanced they are, yet they are being now blackmailed by the Arabs for oil. What is the use of their advancement? And now whatever the Arabs want, they have to do.

Prabhupāda: (referring to devotee who went to do purchasing) I think he is not returning. He's gone forever.

Gargamuni: Who?

Hari-śauri: Devi-dhāma. Oh, no. He's back. He's back.

Gargamuni: Just now.

Prabhupāda: So what did he bring?

Rāmeśvara: They have become completely dependent on oil.

Prabhupāda: Anything artificial, it will break. You cannot make a scheme of mental concoction. That will not endure. You take standard, it will be beneficial. The whole world is in chaotic condition because they have so many artificial way of living.

Hari-śauri: You want some channa?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: She said she has to . . . they brought some fresh channa. You want some of that too?

Prabhupāda: Bring separately.

Hari-śauri: With peanuts. Separate.

Prabhupāda: The reason is, their real business they have forgotten. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). They are trying to be happy by adjusting this external energy. They do not know what is happiness, what for happiness is meant for—nothing. Simply manufacturing ideas which is external. Durāśayā. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ.

Hari-śauri: Do you want the peanuts roasting in ghee or just dry roasting?

Prabhupāda: No, no, they are . . . they . . . it is roasted.

Hari-śauri: They didn't get already roasted.

Gargamuni: Dry roasted.

Hari-śauri: They're roasted in the shells.

Prabhupāda: Roasted in the shells?

Hari-śauri: Well I think that's how they do it.

Prabhupāda: Then it is all right.

Hari-śauri: So just straight from the shells is all right.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Get out from the shell.

Hari-śauri: You don't want them heating or anything?

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Gargamuni: They roast it in the sand. Dry-roast it.

Prabhupāda: That is good.

Prabhupāda: (pause) The nature's law is that if you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, you'll be put into trouble. That's all. The law is there. That is daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). You cannot surmount.

Gargamuni: They're always being harassed.

Prabhupāda: And they are trying to save harassment by nature's law. That is impossible. That is ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27): rascal, and under false prestige they are trying to save themselves. And ultimately crushed—death. Struggling, struggling. Now, last word—death. Finish. Now, according to your karma, "All right, you just become a tree." Finish. "Stand up here for five thousand years." This is nature's . . . and these rascal scientists have no knowledge of this. "Wherefrom the tree comes? Why the tree is standing there for five thousand years, and I have got good car? Why this difference of position? He is also living entity, I am also." They have no brain. That is also living entity. "This tree is dead." Dead means it has life. So wherefrom the life came? Who made him a tree and made him a prime minister? Who made him? They cannot answer all these questions. Simply blindly following their own mental concoction. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). Everything is there.

mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ

suyate sa-carācaram

hetunānena kaunteya

jagad viparivartate

(BG 9.10)

Who cares for all these instructions? By illusion everyone is thinking, "My these happy days will go on." And one slap, "Get out! Become a tree." This is all imagination? Mythology? "I am finished." The Russians, they have concluded, "Oh, this life finished—everything is finished." One sense, one, everything is finished, because this so-called happy life is finished. Very dangerous civilization to keep the human society in darkness. (aside) The draft is coming from up. That you cannot stop.

Gargamuni: We can put some cloth here, maybe. I can feel. If we put some cloth here, some dhotī . . . if you have a dhotī?

Prabhupāda: No . . . better you cover yourself. That's all.

Gargamuni: When I was in Kathmandu, in the hotel I was staying there was some draft, and I put one cloth and . . .

Prabhupāda: That is possible.

Gargamuni: . . . it insulated. If you have a dhotī, or something, we can put it up here.

Prabhupāda: No, why such dhotī? They'll fall down. Where'll you get so much dhotī?

Gargamuni: No, no, if we fold it up, we can put it . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but it is from all sides. Better give me my wrapper. That will . . . yes. Any one will do. (pause) So document is registered or not?

Devotee: Not registered.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Devotee: I mean, the dukas had just come back. (break)

Prabhupāda: Somebody asked him?

Rāmeśvara: That's a question I meant to ask, because that question will start coming up in America. They will say: "Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary man. He was killed by some hunter."

Prabhupāda: So what do you answer?

Rāmeśvara: We haven't been asked yet. The answer is very difficult to explain to them.

Prabhupāda: Yesterday I was answering. You were not present?

Rāmeśvara: No. (aside) Were you here?

Hari-śauri: No. It was during darśana.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. What did I answer?

Hari-śauri: I wasn't here.

Prabhupāda: How do you answer?

Gargamuni: Well, first we have to explain that Kṛṣṇa has a transcendental body. If they don't understand that, then how can we explain Kṛṣṇa's disappearance?

Prabhupāda: Therefore I am asking how you would explain. The answer is that we living entities, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. We do not die, na jāyate na mriyate vā. Kadācit—at any time. We do not take birth, we do not die. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Even by destruction of this body, we do not die. You know this. So we are part and parcel. If we are eternal, how Kṛṣṇa can be . . .? Hmm? If my finger is eternal, how the body is not eternal? How the body can be dead? So why did He die like that, appearing as dead? So that is His līlā that . . . He has so many līlās. So why this līlā? Just to cheat you. You are atheist, and to keep you atheist forever, so that in your life after life you'll not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore He is doing, just to cheat you. Because you are atheist, you cannot think of Kṛṣṇa properly. To keep you in darkness forever He manifests this līlā.

Hari-śauri: But why should God want to keep the living entities in darkness?

Prabhupāda: Because you want to be. You are such a rascal. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: mūḍhā janmani janmani mām aprāpya (BG 16.20). This envious atheist class life after life will not be able to understand Kṛṣṇa. For this purpose. Find out that verse.

Rāmeśvara: This is very good, because I know this question will come up now.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: They will find out that there is an Indian . . .

Prabhupāda: The atheist class . . .

Rāmeśvara: Yes. They'll find out, "Oh, it says God died. What is this?" Then they'll challenge, that, "This is not God. Kṛṣṇa is ordinary man."

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Hari-śauri:

āsurīṁ yonim āpannā

mūḍhā janmani janmani

mām aprāpyaiva kaunteya

tato yānty adhamāṁ gatim

(BG 16.20)

"Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence."

Prabhupāda: Just to keep you everlastingly in darkness He shows this līlā that, "See? I am dying. You are right that I am a man." Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11). "You rascal, mūḍha, you remain in that condition." This is explanation. Otherwise, how Kṛṣṇa can die? We do not die, His part and parcel. And how He can die?

Gargamuni: Well, they will try and separate Kṛṣṇa from His soul, His body from His soul.

Prabhupāda: Whatever you do, that is for you. It is not Kṛṣṇa's actual position. It is for you, "Yes. You see? I am dying." Just like sometimes Hindu-Muslim riot, many Deities of Kṛṣṇa are broken. So the Muhammadans, they think, "Now Hindu's Deity I have broken. Finished."

Hari-śauri: "God is dead."

Prabhupāda: "God is dead." So it is like that. By breaking the Deity, he thinks that, "Now Hindu's Kṛṣṇa is dead now, finished. We have finished." (laughs) But does it mean that he has broken the Deity, therefore Kṛṣṇa is finished? But he thinks like that, "Yes, we have finished the Hindu Deity." So that he will continue his foolishness that, "These people worship idol and we can break that. Finish." This is the answer.

Rāmeśvara: This will be very difficult for them to understand.

Prabhupāda: So how they will understand, atheist?

Rāmeśvara: They cannot understand anything.

Prabhupāda: They cannot understand. So keep them in darkness. This is the only way. Mūḍhā janmani janmani (BG 16.20), life after life. (break) Mūḍhā janmani janmani. In another place Kṛṣṇa said, bahūni me janmāni tava cārjuna . . . ātītani tava cārjuna.

Hari-śauri: Oh, yes.

bahūni me vyatītāni

janmāni tava cārjuna

tāny aham veda sarvāṇi

na tvaṁ vettha parantapa

(BG 4.5)

Rāmeśvara: But there is another way they can understand also. Just like in Christianity, they all believe Jesus was killed, and then immediately he was alive again. So in the same way . . .

Hari-śauri: After three days.

Rāmeśvara: . . . Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: Resurrection.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. So in the same way Kṛṣṇa also was appearing again during . . .?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa . . .

Rāmeśvara: Lord Caitanya's līlā is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is never dead. Just like sun. Sun is never out of the sky. It is in my eyes I see that sun is gone. Formerly these rascals were believing sun is dead at night. The Christians believed like that. Is it not? Some of the Christians believed that at night, sun is dead. And the world is square, flat. This is their knowledge. Lord Buddha, he rejected Vedas. Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam (Gīta-govinda). We are being taught that, "You cannot deny the authority of Vedas," and Lord Buddha, he denied the authority of Vedas. But the devotee, they are worshiping, keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare (Gīta-govinda): "Lord Buddha, we can understand your pastime. Still, you are Lord. I offer my obeisances unto you." So the devotees can understand. You cannot understand why Lord Buddha denied the authority of Vedas—to keep you in darkness. He wanted to stop animal-killing, and he preached ahiṁsā, nonviolence. That was his mission. Now these rascals came forward that, "In the yajña vidhi animal-killing is recommended. So why you are stopping animal-killing?" The Buddha . . . Buddha replied: "I don't care for your Vedas." Does it mean that he did not care? Veda nā māniyā bauddha haila nāstika. He played like that, that "I am nāstika. I don't believe in your Vedas." But actually he's not. His mission was different. But these rascals will not understand why he is denying the authority of Vedas. So they're atheists. Sanmohāya sura-dviṣam. Lord Buddha appeared to cheat the atheist class of men. Sanmohāya sura-dviṣam. Sura-dviṣam means those who are envious of the believers, sura. They are called sura. And those who do not believe in God, they are called asura. Just to bewilder them that, "Here is incarnation . . ." They do not accept incarnation. They do not accept God. Where is the question of incarnate? "Here is our leader." So they did not believe in God. And Buddha said: "Never mind. There is no God. You haven't got to believe in God. You believe me or not?" "Yes, sir, I believe you." That is cheating. He's God. He's supporting that, "Don't believe in God. But believe me." (laughs) This is cheating. He supported them, "Yes, there is no God. But what I say, you believe?" "Yes. What you say, we shall believe." This is cheating. Sanmohāya sura-dviṣam. Mohāya.

So God has to deal with so many rascals, fools, in this material worlds. Sometimes He displays His pastime like that, that who will understand? Only the devotees will understand. So "You do not understand Kṛṣṇa. We are devotees of Kṛṣṇa. Oh we know the secret. To keep you perpetually in darkness, He manifested such līlā that He is dead, finish." Just like the idol-breaker. They think, "Now their Kṛṣṇa is finished. We have broken." During Hindu-Muslim riot they do that. They break their mosque, and they break their temple and idol also.

Rāmeśvara: It's like Prabhupāda gave the argument . . . because this one man was challenging that, "This Kṛṣṇa is simply sex symbol, dancing with so many women, having so many queens." So Prabhupāda's challenge was, "But where is the pregnancy? Where is the abortion when He was dancing with the gopīs? Therefore this is not ordinary. This is beyond the material. It's spiritual." That's a big challenge they make.

Gargamuni: How can any materialist manage more than a few wives without divorce?

Prabhupāda: No, apart from that, apart from that, where is the . . .? If you believe Bhāgavatam, that Kṛṣṇa danced with so many thousands of gopīs and He has so many wives, so why there was pregnancy? Why the gopīs were not pregnant?

Hari-śauri: Yes. The gopīs never had any children by Kṛṣṇa. But His wives had ten each.

Prabhupāda: Ten children each. You cannot say that, "He was impotent; therefore He could not make the gopīs pregnant." That you cannot say, because when He married, He begot ten children, each wife, sixteen thousand wives, and sixteen thousand, ten.

Hari-śauri: 160,000.

Prabhupāda: And their children, their children. The Yadu-vaṁśa was a very big family, one crore. So you cannot say that, "He was impotent." And God cannot be impotent. But why they were not pregnant? Hmm?

Hari-śauri: 'Cause He never had . . .

Prabhupāda: And why there was no abortion, contraceptive pills? You dance, immediately there is sex, and there are so many sinful activities after sex. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍhas, how they can understand Kṛṣṇa? Tribhir guṇamāyāir bhavair (BG 7.13). Find out this verse. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). One boy was asking, "What is God?" I chastised him like anything that, "You are born in India. You're asking what is God? How degraded you have become." First of all I answered like this. "India, where Lord Rāmacandra appeared, Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared, Cai . . . and you are Indian, you are asking what is God. How much degraded you Indians have become, just imagine first of all."

Hari-śauri: You want that verse?

nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya

yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ

mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti

loko mām ajam avyayam

(BG 7.25)

Prabhupāda: Loko mām ajam avyayam.

Hari-śauri: "I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency, yoga-māyā, and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible."

Prabhupāda: This is the answer—just to delude them, cheat them. They want to remain atheist—"All right, remain atheist. Suffer," janmani janmani, "life after life." This is the real explanation. Is that correct answer? (break) But still, there is some argument. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya (BG 7.25). This is the idea. "Why shall I reveal Myself to this atheist class?" Mūḍha janmani janmani (BG 16.20). "Let them remain asuras."

Hari-śauri: Should I read the purport?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that?

Hari-śauri: "It may be argued that since Kṛṣṇa was present on this earth and was visible to everyone, then why isn't He manifest to everyone now? But actually He was not manifest to everyone. When Kṛṣṇa was present there were only a few people who could understand Him to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the assembly . . ." (break) (section of recording of Prabhupāda preaching playing)

Prabhupāda: If one understands, then he becomes immediately liberated. And the atheists, they cannot understand, they remain always conditioned. If actually one understands Kṛṣṇa, he's liberated immediately. He's simply waiting for changing this body. That's all. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). One who has understood Kṛṣṇa is liberated. Jīvan muktaḥ sa ucyate (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.187): "Even in this life he is mukta." Find out that, janma karma ca divyaṁ me yo jānāti tattvataḥ. "You rascal, if you could understand Kṛṣṇa, then immediately you would have been liberated. And if you were liberated, then you would not ask this question. You do not know Kṛṣṇa, neither it is possible for you to understand Kṛṣṇa. You remain in darkness."

Gargamuni: On that tape where you are arguing with that man, you asked him, "Did you read Bhagavad-gītā?" He was criticizing, but then he asked him, "Did you read Bhagavad-gītā?" He said, "No."

Prabhupāda: Just see. Such . . . they have created this Vivekananda and Cinmayanandas, rascals, so many rascals. They have created such situation that Indian people are mostly in darkness, although God appears here in India. They have executed such thankless task, this Vivekananda, Cinmayananda and so many Māyāvādīs. "Ramakrishna is Bhagavān." And what is his certificate that he is Bhagavān? "He said." No. He said: "I am the same Rāma. I am the same Kṛṣṇa." So he is taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa to prove his Godhead. So why not go to original Godhead? Why shall I take the imitation? He is maintaining his position that, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa." "So then same Kṛṣṇa is authority. So why shall I not go to same Kṛṣṇa? Why shall I go to you? Your authority is also Kṛṣṇa. So why shall I give up original Kṛṣṇa and take to an imitation Kṛṣṇa? You may be the same, but I am not a very intelligent man. Why shall I go to the imitation? I shall go to the original." Hmm? Is it not? "I am not so expert to understand whether you are actual or not. You are saying. There is no proof in the śāstra. So let me go to the original." Is that all right, argument? "Why shall I take you? You are supporting, trying to maintain yourself." Everyone says that, "I am Kṛṣṇa. I am God." So India, we have to fight little. There are so many atheists. But mass of people, they are all right.

Gargamuni: In the villages they all still worship Lord Caitanya. In the villages in Sundarban they don't worship Ramakrishna. They worship Lord Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: Acchā.

Gargamuni: And also, when I was in Dacca, there was none of the śakti-pūjā. They had all temples of Lord Caitanya there when I was there.

Prabhupāda: So you take this Dacca responsibility. Take that temple. It will be very nice, a great triumph for us.

Gargamuni: Yes. I will go. In a Muslim country to establish Vaiṣṇavism.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The temple is nice, and let us renovate it and establish our center, and gradually, if Americans preach there, the Muhammadans will come. If Hindu preach, they'll take otherwise. But when they see the Americans have come, they'll take it little serious. And now we have got philosophy. At least the educated class will understand. You take that, and it will be a great triumph. My Guru Mahārāja will be pleased. He established that temple, and Tīrtha Mahārāja was selling it. But he has no power to go there. He was exchanging. I told you that that I went to the donor and asked him that, "Your temple is being exchanged with a Muhammadan." So they took it seriously, and they stopped it. This temple was donated by one big zamindar. They live in Sabka Bazar. They have got enough property in Dacca, big zamindar, Balihet. How he dared to exchange the temple established by Guru Mahārāja for a house in Calcutta? Just what kind of person he was, just imagine.

Gargamuni: Ruthless.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. (break) What is the condition of Caitanya Matha now?

Gargamuni: Caitanya Matha? They're very quiet now. When I came out to Māyāpur—I think it was about ten days ago—I saw a big bus, a tourist bus, and this . . . the son came out with a bunch of people to Caitanya Matha. But it's relatively quiet now there. There's no actions.

Prabhupāda: So he brought some men from Calcutta.

Gargamuni: Yes. He brought some people in a tourist bus.

Prabhupāda: Indian?

Gargamuni: Yes. We have noticed recently many tourist buses there in Māyāpur now. They are coming from other areas, middle-class people. They rent this tourist bus, and they have been touring Māyāpur. Sometimes they come, and at the time of prasādam they ask, "Can we get our food here? We're about forty persons." So we take them over to the prasādam pavilion and they take. But this was never before. Never was there a tourist bus in Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: No.

Gargamuni: Never.

Prabhupāda: No. (pause) So you shall go? What is the time?

Hari-śauri: Ten past six.

Gargamuni: I think it's still a little dark.

Hari-śauri: No, it's light. (break)

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Hari-śauri: You want to give the class in the morning, Śrīla Prabhupāda? 'Cause now there's no speaking in the evening.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: Now you're not speaking in the evening, so the devotees were wondering if there was a class in the morning.

Prabhupāda: They want? No.

Hari-śauri: Anybody want a class in the morning? (laughter) Yes, everybody wants.

Devotee: But not if it's uncomfortable.

Hari-śauri: But only as far as it's convenient to you.

Prabhupāda: I shall speak in the evening.

Hari-śauri: All right. (end)