770125 - Conversation A - Jagannatha Puri
Prabhupāda: It was heart attack. Otherwise I could not understand. So I passed through third heart attacks. One, two, three. They say that anyone who gets heart attack, the third attack, he must expire. Heart attack.
Hari-śauri: You had three attacks on the ship.
Prabhupāda: Two.
Hari-śauri: Oh. And then one when you got to...
Prabhupāda: New York. Third one paralyzed.
Hari-śauri: Very bad one.
Prabhupāda: Left side paralyzed. I do not know how we were saved.
Hari-śauri: Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: And one girl, that captain's wife, she studied astrology. She said, "Swami, if you can survive your seventieth year, then you'll live for one hundred years." (Hari-śauri laughs) So, somehow or other, I survived my seventieth year. I do not whether I shall live for hundred years, but seventieth year was severe-three heart attacks and paralysis.
Hari-śauri: All in the same year.
Prabhupāda: Then without any family. At that time none of you were with me. I was alone. I was completely dependent on anyone.
Hari-śauri: Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: But on the ship I saw that "Kṛṣṇa is with me." I was going for this reas..., Hare Kṛṣṇa. So they are not here, some prasāda to eat?
Hari-śauri: There's a little extra. He can take some. They'll all be eating Jagannātha prasādam.
Prabhupāda: We shall be eating also. No? No? Jagannātha prasāda ?
Hari-śauri: Well, he was going to cook.
Prabhupāda: Which is better, eh? Jagannātha?
Hari-śauri: (laughs) I don't know. Whatever you like. At least, if we cook here, you'll get hot prasāda.
Prabhupāda: A little Jagannātha prasāda also.
Hari-śauri: Yes. They can bring some. I traveled for a month myself on a boat. I went from England to Australia on ship.
Prabhupāda: One month? Only?
Hari-śauri: Twenty-eight days.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Through Atlantic.
Hari-śauri: Yes. We had to go Atlantic and right 'round the tip of Africa and across the Indian Ocean, because the Suez Canal was finished then. It was blocked by the war.
Prabhupāda: Suez Canal still not open?
Hari-śauri: No.
Prabhupāda: What they have done, these...? They were getting, minimum, fifty thousand rupees daily.
Hari-śauri: Oh, at least.
Prabhupāda: So what, these nonsense politicians? They lost the money and inconvenience to others. These rascal politicians, they can do anything whimsical. They were getting money, not less than fifty thousand, not smaller than daily fifty thousand. From business point of view they could have raised the toll. They could get more money. What is the use of stopping?
Hari-śauri: Well, they raised the price of oil instead.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Hari-śauri: They raised the price of oil instead.
Prabhupāda: Muhammadan, they... Brain fag. And they are thieves. The captains said that they are all thieves, these Egyptians.
Hari-śauri: Arabs.
Prabhupāda: Arabs. Vast desert we saw, passing. Huge stack of sand. How they are living there?
Hari-śauri: Certainly not for a civilized man.
Prabhupāda: This stove is ours?
Hari-śauri: It's Gargamuni's... [break]
Prabhupāda: Just imagine what kind of astrologer. The modern astrologers, they cannot foretell like that, neither they can believe that it is possible.
Satsvarūpa: (reading) "The real qualification is to become a devotee of the Lord, and gradually all the good qualities worthy of possession developed. Mahārāja Parīkṣit was a mahā-bhāgavata, or a first-class devotee, who was not only well versed in the science of devotion but also able to convert others to become devotees by his transcendental instructions. Mahārāja Parīkṣit was, therefore, a devotee of the first order, and thus he used to consult great sages and learned brāhmaṇas who could advise him by the śāstras how to execute the state administration."
Prabhupāda: So who is going to do that? All these... All rogues and thieves, drunkards and fourth-class character, meat-eaters, they are the government. How you can expect good government for the benefit of the people? This is Kali-yuga. Unfortunately we have on the heads of government all men of the low-grade character. You... Your President?
Satsvarūpa: New President?
Prabhupāda: No, that Kennedy.
Satsvarūpa: Kennedy.
Prabhupāda: He was always associating with naked woman.
Satsvarūpa: Yes, it's been discovered.
Prabhupāda: Just see. And he is the President.
Satsvarūpa: Now Gargamuni says a new book has come out about Gandhi, telling things about Gandhi that are shocking.
Prabhupāda: Gandhi was actually very sexually inclined. In his autobiography he was written that when his father was dying, he was having sex with his wife. After finishing sex with his wife, then he came to see his dead father. He has admitted. And his association with his granddaughters, granddaughter-in-law, that is also this... A new book has come out?
Satsvarūpa: Yes. He says it tells about that even after he pledged to be brahmacārī he traveled with some young girl.
Prabhupāda: No, even when he was old man and leader he would go, keeping, resting his hand on two young girls. That means he was very fond of sex. There is no doubt about it. What business he...? He is speaking of "Mahatma" Gandhi. He could not get the help of two young men? Why two young girls?
Satsvarūpa: "Such great kings were more responsible than modern elected executive heads because they obliged the great authorities by following their instructions left in Vedic literatures. There was no need to enact daily a new legislative bill by impractical fools and to alter it again and again conveniently to serve some purpose. The rules and regulations were already set forth by great sages like Manu, Yājñavalkya, Parāśara, and other liberated sages, and the enactments were all suitable for all ages and all places. Therefore the rules and regulations were standard and without flaw or defect. Kings like Mahārāja Parīkṣit had their council of advisors and all..."
Prabhupāda: Our things on the veranda can be kept inside. Because they are here, somebody may... So many men are coming and going.
Satsvarūpa: "All the members of the council were either great sages or brāhmaṇas of the first order. They did not accept any salary, nor had they any necessity for such salaries. The state would get the best advice without expenditure. They were themselves sama-darśī, equal to everyone, both man and animals. They would not advise the king to give protection to the man and instruct him to kill the poor animals. Such council members were not fools or representatives to compose a fool's paradise. They were all self-realized souls, and they knew perfectly well how all living beings in the state would be happy both in this life and the next. They were not concerned with the hedonistic philosophy of 'Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy.' They were philosophers in the real sense, and they knew well what is the mission of human life. Under all these obligations, the advisory council of the king would give correct directions, and the king or executive head, being himself a qualified devotee of the Lord, would scrutinizingly follow them for the welfare of the state. The state in the days of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira or Mahārāja Parīkṣit was a welfare state in the real sense of the term, because no one was unhappy in that state, be he man or animal. Mahārāja Parīkṣit was an ideal king for the welfare state of the world."(text 1, Ch. 16, First Canto Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Continues to read text two and purport with no comment from Śrīla Prabhupāda) Text 3:
ājahārāśva-medhāṁs trīn
gaṅgāyāṁ bhūri-dakṣiṇān
śāradvataṁ guruṁ kṛtvā
devā yatrākṣi-gocarāḥ
Translation: "Mahārāja Parīkṣit, after having selected Kṛpācārya for guidance as his spiritual master, performed three horse sacrifices on the banks of the Ganges. These were executed with sufficient rewards for the attendants. And at these sacrifices, even the common man could see demigods." Purport: "It appears from this verse that interplanetary travel by the denizens of higher planets is easy. In many statements in Bhāgavatam we have observed that the demigods from heaven used to visit this earth to attend sacrifices performed by influential kings and emperors. Herein also we find that during the time of the horse sacrifice ceremony of Mahārāja Parīkṣit, the demigods from other planets were visible even for the common man due to the sacrificial ceremony. The demigods are not generally visible to common men as the Lord is not visible. But as the Lord also by His causeless mercy descends to be visible to the common man..."
Prabhupāda: This is the real answer. They want to see.
Nanda-kumāra: Would you like this pillow, Śrīla Prabhupāda, behind your back?
Satsvarūpa: It is very weak argument to say, "Something doesn't exist because I don't see it."
Prabhupāda: It is childish.
Satsvarūpa: But they can say, "Neither is it a proof that it does exist."
Prabhupāda: How you can prove? You can hear only. There are many things which is beyond your sense perception. The example which I often give, that "Who is your father?" What is proof? The proof is the hearing from mother. That's all. You cannot have any other proof.
Satsvarūpa: "Although celestial beings are not visible to the naked eyes of the inhabitants of this earth, it was due to the influence of Mahārāja Parīkṣit that the demigods also agreed to be visible. The kings used to spend lavishly during such sacrifices as the cloud distributes rains. A cloud is nothing but another form of water, or, in other words, the waters of the earth transform into clouds. Similarly, the charity made by the kings in such sacrifices are but another form of the taxes collected from the citizens. But as the rains fall down very lavishly and appear to be more than necessary, the charity made by such kings also seems to be more than what the citizen needs. Satisfied citizens will never organize agitation against the king, and thus there was no need of changing the monarchial state. Even for a king like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira there was needed a spiritual master for guidance. Without such guidance one cannot make progress in spiritual life. The spiritual master must be bona fide, and one who wants to have self-realization must approach and take shelter of a bona fide spiritual master to achieve real success.
(text 4)
nijagrāhaujasā vīraḥ
kaliṁ digvijaye kvacit
nṛpa-liṅga-dharaṁ śūdraṁ
ghnantaṁ go-mithunaṁ padā
(translation) "Once when Mahārāja Parīkṣit was on his way to conquer the world, he saw the master of Kali-yuga, who was lower than a śūdra, disguised as a king and hurting the legs of a cow and bull. The King at once caught hold of him to deal sufficient punishment." (purport) "The purpose of a king's going out to conquer the world is not for self-aggrandizement. Mahārāja Parīkṣit went out to conquer the world after his ascendance on the throne, but this was not for the purpose of aggression on other states. He was the emperor of the world, and all small states were under his regime. His purpose in going out was to see how things were going on in terms of the godly state. The king, being the representative of the Lord, has to execute the will of the Lord duly. There is no question of self-aggrandizement. Thus as soon as Mahārāja Parīkṣit saw that a lower-class man in the dress of a king was hurting the legs of a cow and bull..." [break]
Prabhupāda: ...there the injunction of the śāstra, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Go-rakṣya. Cow should be protected. Kṛṣṇa said, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Kṛṣṇa did not say chāgala-rakṣya or hog- rakṣya. Go-rakṣya. So it is the duty of the king or the state or the government to give protection to the cows. This is śāstric injunction. But nowadays neither the state or government is giving protection to the cow. They are becoming implicated with so many problems. I heard that India again is not slaughtering cows. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...perception. That is experience. Why do you give on seeing only? By seeing one mango you cannot understand what quality it is, but you have to touch with your tongue. Therefore in chemical laboratory the characteristics are there: "This is the color. This is the taste. This is the reaction." So you have to gather experience like that, not by simply seeing. That... I gave the example. Now you take one egg. What is there? Some white and some yellow substance. So you make one egg with white and yellow and bring life. So what is the power of your seeing? A small egg. Take a small egg. The covering, some celluloid, within, some white substance, some yellow substance. Or make further analysis and give some chemicals of the same taste, same color, same characteristic—now bring life. But the same thing. You put under the feather of the chicken. Within five days it will bring life. So what is the credit of these rascal doctors, D.H.C.? That a small chicken is better than these D.H.C. Why don't you see practically?
Gargamuni: The chicken is simply sitting, and he is...
Prabhupāda: He is bringing life. What is the answer of these rascal scientists?
Satsvarūpa: No good answer. Bluff.
Prabhupāda: Challenge them like this, that "First of all do it. You are less than the chicken. Why you are claiming so much honor? We treat you, you are fig. You are less important than the chicken. Prove that you have got some power; then claim that you are scientist." Hm? Is that argument all right? What will be the counterargument?
Gurukṛpā: A sane man would accept.
Prabhupāda: They're all rascals. They do not know anything; still, they are claiming very high position.
Gurukṛpā: I heard one scientist on the airplane. There were three scientists sitting behind me, and they were speaking that they hope they are living in the year 2000. One man said, "I become so excited when I think how advanced we will be in the year 2000 that I just hope I do not die before then 'cause I want to see how everything will be then."
Satsvarūpa: By then they think they will be doing this, creating life.
Prabhupāda: That any insane man can say. Any crazy man can say. "Trust no future, however pleasant." "You are rascal. You are believing in the future. You have not show us, because in the past you could not do. There is no history. In the present you cannot do. So how shall I believe that in future you'll do?" So any rascal promises like that, so we take him as a rascal. That's all.
Satsvarūpa: What about our promise, in the future also, that you go to Kṛṣṇa in the future?
Prabhupāda: We have got proof. Kṛṣṇa says. We believe in Kṛṣṇa. You believe in some rascal; we believe in Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti BG 4.9 . So we believe that. That's all. We have got evidence. You have no evidence. You are simply suggesting in future you'll do. But we have got evidence.
Gargamuni: Sometimes they ask, "Show us somebody who's come."
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Gargamuni: "Show us someone who has come from there."
Prabhupāda: Many.
Gargamuni: "But we don't find any."
Prabhupāda: Many. It is in the śāstra. "He was formerly like this, and now he has become this." There are many.
Gargamuni: Well, that's in the śāstra. They say now we want...
Prabhupāda: But śāstra is the proof. Our proof is śāstra. Your proof is your śāstra. Did you go to the moon planet or you believe the newspapers? Have you gone?
Gargamuni: No.
Prabhupāda: Then if you can believe newspaper, why shall not believe in the Veda, Vedānta ?
Gargamuni: No, but one man has come.
Prabhupāda: So one man... You have not done. You have no experience. So one man you believe authority.
Gurukṛpā: But we saw the television. They showed on the television.
Prabhupāda: No. Television could not show that. You can arrange in the laboratory such television, cheat others. And you have done it. But anyway, television or man or newspaper—you believe on others. You have not personally gone. So you believe some authority. We believe some authority. What is the difference. You take newspaper as authority. We take Vedic literature as authority. Where is the difference? You have personally not gone. How do you believe? The difference is that you believe somebody, we believe somebody. I asked this question to Professor Kotovsky, that "You believe Lenin; we believe Kṛṣṇa. Then where is the difference between philosophy?" Now it is to be judged whether Lenin is all right or Kṛṣṇa is all right. That is another thing. But the principle is there. "You believe in Lenin; we believe in Kṛṣṇa. The process is the same. So where is your improvement?"
Satsvarūpa: They say that theirs can be shown not just to a disciple but to the whole world in general, not just...
Prabhupāda: Nobody believes in Lenin. Then there would have been everyone Communist. You believe, a section. Then why there are two parties? You are not all in all. That is going on everywhere. How you can say that you are correct, I am not correct? The process is the same. Therefore Vivekananda has compromised, "Everyone is correct." Yato mata tato patha. There is no quarrel.
Gurukṛpā: Then they accuse us of being fanatical.
Prabhupāda: You are also fanatical. Why do you believe Lenin? You are fanatical in our eyes. You are worse than fanatical because we have got great other authorities—they believe Kṛṣṇa is God. You have created a section recently, but we have got evidences from thousands and thousands of years ago, authorities believing Kṛṣṇa. Our literatures are very old. Your literature recently made.
Gargamuni: Sometimes, though, they may agree philosophically about Kṛṣṇa, but then they will bring in Kṛṣṇa's controversial personal life. They always do this.
Prabhupāda: Personal life?
Gargamuni: They bring in about, always about the gopīs and Kṛṣṇa.
Gurukṛpā: They just did that recently in Honolulu.
Gargamuni: Philosophically they may agree. But then they will go and attack Kṛṣṇa's...
Gurukṛpā: Character.
Gargamuni: His character.
Prabhupāda: But that... Because...
Gargamuni: Even in India they do. They say, "Rāma, He was better."
Prabhupāda: But what do you know about Rāma and Kṛṣṇa? You do not know anything. You are not a devotee. You have to learn the science. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati BG 7.3 . You are ordinary man. You cannot understand. Then one can criticize his father and mother also, that "My fa..." They do. Some rascal do that. Kim anyat kāma-haitukam. "My father has done harm to me. By lusty desire he gave me birth, and I am suffering." They say like that. So you can in that way, you criticize your father and mother. But that is not law. Law is father and mother should be respected. But you rascal, you can criticize your father. You are such a rascal.
Gargamuni: 'Cause in India that happens a lot. Especially...
Prabhupāda: No, then father, mother, should not be respected, because they indulged in sexual life and brought me into existence and I am suffering. Then there should be no respect of father and mother. And then this sex life should be stopped, and there is no need of big, big scientist, philosopher. Because this indulgence will bring so many big men, so it should be stopped. But Kṛṣṇa is the father. Why He should not have sex? Any father has got sex. So if you criticize Kṛṣṇa, then you must criticize your father first. But that is not the law of nature nor the law of the society. Law is different. Who will criticize his father? Any sane man? Will any sane man do that? So you are insane. So who is caring for your remark? You are insane.
Hari-śauri: They're just envious of Kṛṣṇa, anyway. They're envious because they want to enjoy.
Prabhupāda: That is the cause, that they're criticizing. They're envious.
Gargamuni: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: That's all. The envious man can say anything.
Gargamuni: That I notice when they say that. I can notice their envy.
Prabhupāda: But still Kṛṣṇa is being worshiped. Here is Jagannātha, Kṛṣṇa. Millions of people have come to worship. You are rascal. You may criticize. It doesn't affect Kṛṣṇa's respectful position.
Gargamuni: Caitanya Mahāprabhu, although Kṛṣṇa's life may have been controversial, still, He was very strict sannyāsī.
Prabhupāda: He never criticized Kṛṣṇa. Rather, He was enjoying Kṛṣṇa's love with gopīs .
Gurukṛpā: Ramya kaścid upāsanā varga...(?)
Prabhupāda: So we have to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu, not you.
Satsvarūpa: And Śukadeva Gosvāmī.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. That is the... Kṛṣṇa must have everything. Otherwise how He is God? God's definition is that everything is emanating from Kṛṣṇa. Janmādy asya yataḥ SB 1.1.1 . He's God, the original source of anything. Anything and everything. Then He's God. So if sex life is not in Kṛṣṇa, then wherefrom it comes? Does it drop from the sky? You rascal, you do not know the science.
Hari-śauri: And with Kṛṣṇa's sex there's no inebrieties.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Hari-śauri: When Kṛṣṇa has sex life there's no inebrieties. There's no abortion and contraception. With his sex life there's so many bad things.
Prabhupāda: No, first of all, wherefrom the sex life comes if it is not in God? You make God impotent. But we do not make. Why He should be impotent? Then He's imperfect. If He's not potent, then He's imperfect, and God is all-perfect.
Satsvarūpa: They take it that this is an example of anthropomorphic, that we are saying...
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be.
Satsvarūpa: "God has sex."
Prabhupāda: They are luscious(?) that... [break] Just like a tuberculosis patient. To him doctor says that "You don't have sex life. That will bring your death." Does it mean sex life is bad? The tuberculosis person, for him it is bad, not for the sane man, not for the healthy man. So when sex life is advised to..., forbidden, that is for the diseased condition. But who is never diseased—he is perfect—for him there is no forbidding of sex life. So you do not understand that in this material condition you are suffering only. You have no brain. Therefore morality, immorality, good, bad, there are so many things. But when one is perfect, healthy, for him all the activities of life is perfect. Just like a physician advised me, "You don't take salt." Does it mean salt is bad? I am in a particular condition of this kidney trouble or liver trouble. For me salt is bad. But does it mean salt bad?
Gurukṛpā: No. It's very good.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, sex life for you is bad, not for Kṛṣṇa. You are thinking Kṛṣṇa like you, mūḍha .
Gargamuni: Yes. They try to equate themselves.
Gurukṛpā: Sex-monger
Prabhupāda: Yes. You are taking Kṛṣṇa on your level. You are such a rascal. You do not know Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddh... BG 7.3 , yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścid. You do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. You are taking Him on your level. Therefore you are trying to criticize Him. You do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. That is your ignorance. What is food for one is poison for others. So for you it is poison, not for Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is God. He has everything. He can use everything. That is God. He is not restricted by anyone. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat BG 7.3 . Who can restrict Him? Then He's not God. If by a third-class man like you He's restricted of His sex life, then He's not God. He becomes under your control. But Kṛṣṇa is īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1] . He's the supreme controller. How He can be controlled by your so-called goodness and badness? So the conclusion is you do not know Kṛṣṇa. You want to bring Kṛṣṇa in your level of understanding, and that is your foolishness. So we don't care for the fools like you. This is our conclusion. Avajānanti... That is replied. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ: BG 7.3 "Rascals, fools, they criticize Me, thinks Me that I am as good as human being." Mānusīṁ janma. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ: "The rascals do not know what is My actual position." So you have to preach in that way.
Gargamuni: I have found sometimes when going to the offices that these people, these businessmen in India, they have become so offensive because they always try to attack Kṛṣṇa's activities more than anybody else.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise where is the need of preaching? If you expect everyone is in favor of Kṛṣṇa, then where is the need of pushing on Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Gargamuni: In the West we can discuss philosophy with people. They never try to attack Kṛṣṇa's...
Gurukṛpā: Now they are attacking, because they have gotten your books. (Prabhupāda laughs) Even the Christians, they have read your books. And they are saying, "Well, Kṛṣṇa did this. Kṛṣṇa did that."
Prabhupāda: He must do it because He's God. You do not... You have no conception. You explain that if there is no such things, then wherefrom it has come? God is the origin. In the Bible also it is said, "God said 'Let there be creation.' " So in the creation there are so many things. So therefore everything comes from God. That is Vedānta philosophy. Janmādy asya yataḥ SB 1.1.1 . So why do you say, "Your God is like this"? God has everything. Otherwise how He's God? There is no meaning of God if He is deficient in something. But you do not know.
Satsvarūpa: They say He should be exemplary. God should be exemplary.
Prabhupāda: No. God is not bound to prove His example character to you. You are a rascal.
Satsvarūpa: Then how will I know what to follow?
Prabhupāda: You learn! You come to me. I'll teach you and beat you with shoes and teach you. (laughter) Come to me. Why I am here? You come! I shall beat you with shoes and teach you. Then you'll learn. You require some beating with shoes. You are a bad student. So I'll do that. "Come on." Yes, I keep always my shoes for my bad students.
Gurukṛpā: You can beat me, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I'd like that.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. A student who is more chastised is advanced. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana CC Adi 7.71 . Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "My spiritual master saw Me a grand fool. Therefore he has chastised Me." That is the position. The more we remain a grand fool, then more we may advance in spiritual consciousness. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana. He was mūrkha ?
Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one thing they're doing against us more and more in the West is taking the testimony of an ex-disciple of yours, and he will say, "I was a Hare Kṛṣṇa..."
Prabhupāda: "Because he is rascal, therefore he's 'ex,' excommunicated. My Guru Mahārāja kicked him out, so what is the value of his word?"
Gargamuni: We can say these men were excommunicated.
Prabhupāda: Ex means he's executed. That's all. He's finished.
Satsvarūpa: Why listen to his testimony? We can say, "Why listen to his testimony?"
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not take our testimony? We are... Now take.
Gargamuni: Even in the church they do that. If some priest is not following or introduces something new, they are excommunicated. So we have excommunicated him. Why he should be listened to?
Prabhupāda: He's no more in this.
Gargamuni: That's legal. In the church they do that. Why we cannot do?
Prabhupāda: That is natural. Somebody will go out and speak against us.
Satsvarūpa: The demons are very eager to hear. "Oh, tell us what they did to you."
Prabhupāda: (laughs) "That is not your business. You better ask because you have taken him as authority. You have already taken him as authority, the excommunicated member. So you ask him." These things will happen. In preaching, you cannot expect very smooth path going. Otherwise what is the use of preaching?
Hari-śauri: That's been going on for a long time.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Hari-śauri: Even their own religion started like that. Jesus's..., one of his best disciples turned him in.
Gurukṛpā: Actually they are helping us to become Kṛṣṇa conscious by giving us an opportunity to preach about Kṛṣṇa.
Gargamuni: It makes us serve with great..., more enthusiasm, even the demons.
Prabhupāda: That is the way of electricity. Electricity. Some thunder. That is electricity. The word is used, apratihatā. Pratihata means checking. When your devotional service will make progress in spite of checking, that is pure devotion. Ahaituky apratihatā yayātmā suprasīdati. And that is pure devotion. I was attacked by heart attack thrice. While on the ship, twice.
Gargamuni: On the ship twice? Oh.
Prabhupāda: Consecutively two days, attack. Actually I would have died on the ship before reaching your country. I could not understand that was heart attack. The pain was so severe, I thought, "I am now dying." And it was done two nights. And I was very much afraid whether on the third night, that "If this night also again some pain like that comes, then I'll die." But third night did not pain. It was suspended. It came in New York. And you know it, left side was paralyzed.
Gargamuni: Yes. Left side. We had to massage constantly.
Prabhupāda: No, they were arranging for some operation.
Gargamuni: Yes. Those doctors.
Prabhupāda: I told Kīrtanānanda, "Give me massage."
Gargamuni: I can remember. I wheeled you down for test.
Prabhupāda: The heart was also very painful still.
Gargamuni: They wanted to take some blood, and I had to stop them.
Prabhupāda: They were examining my brain. Then I thought, "I must go away." I told, "Doctor, I am all right. I can go."
Gargamuni: They wanted to do so many tests. They wanted to take also from spine.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Satsvarūpa: They did that. They did give you that spine needle.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Never call doctor. Never give me hospital. Let me die peacefully if I am in trouble.
Gargamuni: Tīrtha Mahārāja had many doctors.
Prabhupāda: He has suffered too much. When I was in Los Angeles after coming back from India, in that black quarter, do you remember? No.
Gargamuni: Black order?
Prabhupāda: Black quarter.
Gargamuni: Oh. That was on West Pico Boulevard? That storefront?
Prabhupāda: Our temple was...
Gargamuni: West Pico Boulevard, right. I know that place. Yes. I was there. Yes, right, when you came back.
Prabhupāda: Before our La Cienega...
Gargamuni: Yes. It was in the black quarter. I can remember.
Prabhupāda: I was continuing my disease up to there.
Gargamuni: And you had one house near?
Prabhupāda: Many houses. I was not sleeping at night, and there was some sound, "gongongongon," in my ear. So long the body will be there, there will be so many troubles. And Kṛṣṇa has advised that "They will come and go. Don't care for them. That's all." Āgamāpāyino 'nityās tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata.
mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya
śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ
āgamāpāyino 'nityās
tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata
BG 2.14
So bodily, mental, by enemies, so many impediments will come. What can be done? We have to tolerate. That is material world. We cannot expect smooth, very happy. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa advising Arjuna, what to speak of us. What we are in comparison to Arjuna. He's His personal friend, talking with Him. He said, tāṁs titikṣasva. Kṛṣṇa never said, "I have made some magic. You'll have no failure," like that. Tāṁs titikṣasva. "You just try to tolerate." That's all. He never gave him any tablet. (chuckling) He taught that... So we have to do that. As the modern gurus says that "I'll give you some ash. There will be no trouble," Kṛṣṇa did He so? He said, "No, tolerate." That's all. He could have said, "I'll give you some ash." "You are ass; I'll give you some ash." (laughter) Neither Arjuna asked also, that "Why You are asking me to fight? Give me some ash. I'll throw." He was not such a fool that he asked some magic from Kṛṣṇa and kill his enemies. Actually he fought. This is Bhagavad-gītā. So face things as they are and depend on Kṛṣṇa. That is our duty. We must go on with our duty. Don't expect any ash, miracle, magic. So what is...? You have got sleeping place?
Gargamuni: Well, we have the beach. No, we have two rooms. Until seven o'clock in the morning we can use these two rooms. So our men can stay. Some will sleep in the van. I will sleep in the van.
Prabhupāda: In some car? In the car? In the car? In my car?
Gargamuni: No, no. No one is sleeping there.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Then why not sleep, someone, some two?
Gargamuni: No, it's not very... It's not long enough. We are big.
Gurukṛpā: We have enough place without.
Gargamuni: In the summer here we park... You know where I took you on the other side? We brought our vans there and we slept right on the sand. Very nice.
Prabhupāda: Beach. Very nice. Summer it is nice.
Gargamuni: Nice breeze all night.
Prabhupāda: Very nice sleep.
Gargamuni: Yes. Fresh. Right? You were there.
Gurukṛpā: Yes. I was there.
Devotee: We slept outside, under the stars. We cooked out there. We cooked outside.
Prabhupāda: In villages eighty percent, ninety percent people, they sleep outside during summer.
Gargamuni: But here there's no... There was no mosquitoes.
Prabhupāda: Because the wind is strong.
Gargamuni: Yes. Very strong. And just a light cādara. A light cādara and that's all.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In village also. In summer, night is rather pleasant.
Gargamuni: Yes. Because there is breeze. Chandigarh we were there and Saharanpur. We were sleeping...
Prabhupāda: You can sleep very comfortably in summer. And in the morning you'll feel fresh, refreshed, complete.
Gurukṛpā: I am sleeping comfortable any place.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that depends on practice.
Gurukṛpā: An expert in sleep.
Prabhupāda: Anything. Śarīra nā mahāśaya, yā saha mithaya saha (?) There is a Bengali proverb that the body is very nice. If you practice something, it will tolerate. Jaya. (devotees offer obeisances) [break] And whatever plan he's making, it will be all frustrated. That is the whole history. Big, big emperor, big, big politicians, they have tried. Roman Empire, the Carthagian Empire, Greece Empire, Egyptian Empire, and Mogul Empire, British Empire—all frustrated. It will never be successful. For a few days, hundred, two hundred years or five hundred years, it may go on. So real plan is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything is successful. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate BG 3.27 . These rascals, on account of false prestigious position, trying to be happy without God... That is not possible. Throughout the history you study. So many rascals have tried. The Napoleon, the Hitler, the Gandhi, this, that. What they have achieved? Nothing. If we honestly study their lives and activities, what they have achieved? Hm? Do you think they have achieved anything?
Satsvarūpa: No.
Prabhupāda: They simply wasted their time. Śrama eva hi kevalam SB 1.2.8 . Simply wasting time. Therefore this is the best service, to revive Kṛṣṇa consciousness for the human society and send them back home, back to Godhead. This is the best service.
Gargamuni: And if anybody helps us, then he is also greatly benefited.
Prabhupāda: He is also... He becomes recognized by the master. "Oh, he is trying for this, what I want." Naturally he becomes immediately recognized, although he has no qualification. If he tries. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa: CC Madhya 7.128 "You become guru. No qualification required. Simply you repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said." Just see how simplified. Don't talk anything nonsense. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-bas. So who cannot do it? Anyone can do it, even a child. (laughs) Our Śyāmasundara's daughter. She was preaching, "Do you know Kṛṣṇa?" They said, "No I have got no..." "The Supreme Personality." This is preaching, simply if you say that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality, supreme controller. Just be obedient to Him." Where is the difficulty? Anyone can preach. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bas. Three words: Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead; surrender unto Him; and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Your life will be successful. What is the difficulty in preaching these three words? Hm? Is there any difficulty? Even a child like Sarasvatī, she can preach. Then what to speak of others? Those who are educated, grown-up, advanced, they can put the matter more nicely, more convincingly, more philosophically. That is another thing. But these three words, that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord; you are servant; and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa"— bas, preaching complete. Very simple thing and the sublime instruction. Everyone can become guru by simply teaching these three words. Not sophisticated, but he must also understand not blindly. Bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra, janma sārthaka kari CC Madhya 7.128 '. He must also understand these three words perfectly. Then wherever he speaks, he'll be successful. Not that "For you I am speaking. I can do everything independently." No. I am also servant of Kṛṣṇa. Realized. This is realization.
Satsvarūpa: How does a preacher realize? How does a preacher come to realize?
Prabhupāda: He must know that he's servant.
Satsvarūpa: By hearing.
Prabhupāda: By practically knowing he's a... Are you independent, anyone? Everyone is servant. He's serving his senses. That's all. He's servant. He's never master. But he has become the servant of māyā or senses. That's all. He has to change only; instead of becoming servant of māyā, be servant of Kṛṣṇa. Servant he is. Where he'll go? How he will become master? To remain a servant is his position. He cannot become master. That is false pride. As soon as he wants to be master, that is false pride. That is māyā. "So if I am servant, then I have to serve. So why shall I serve the senses' dictation? I will serve Kṛṣṇa, what He says." So he's self-realized immediately, within a second. Where is the difficulty to become self-realized? Hm? Is there any difficulty? He must know that "I am serving. I am never master. But serving the senses, that's all, whims of the senses in the name of independence." That is not possible. Very simple philosophy. One who understands, he's self-realized. And if he preaches, then he becomes recognized. On this principle we shall help everyone. "Come here. Stay with us nicely. Nicely you can. But serve Kṛṣṇa. We take responsibility." Organize in this way throughout the whole world. Give them shelter; give them food; give them cloth. That is the most benevolent welfare activity in the human society. So here people have generally tendency to come to the beach to enjoy. "All right, we shall give you a place. Come on. Stay here. You haven't got to pay anything for food or lodging. Simply attend ārati, classes. Then... For experiment, three days' period, you see."
Gargamuni: Anyone.
Prabhupāda: Anyone.
Satsvarūpa: Even those three days they have to attend the maṅgala-ārati ?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Maṅgala-ārati they must attend. It is not that sleeping, "gongongon," and taking free food, no.
Gargamuni: No. Even in Māyāpura we wake them up at four.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that must be. Why Māyāpura? Vṛndāvana, they are accustomed. Yā devī sarva-bhūteṣu nidra... This sleeping is the māyā's influence. It is stated in the... Yā devī sarva-bhūteṣu nidra-rūpeṇa saṁsthitaḥ.(?) The Devī, this material energy, has captured everyone, and she is there... The more one sleeps, that means he's under the control of māyā. And the more he is not sleeping, he's free from māyā. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau **. The Gosvāmīs, they conquered over three things: nidrā, sleeping; āhāra, eating; and mating. These things are the clutches of māyā. More we have sex, more we have eating, more we have sleeping, that means I am entangled. The more we conquer over it, we are free. That we have to try. Whether I am in the clutches of māyā or not can be tested—whether I am sleeping more, whether I am eating more, whether I am more sexually inclined. He can test himself. And bhakti means vairāgya-vidyā, to conquer over these three things. So practice this. They are... To rise early in the morning and attend maṅgala-ārati is compulsory. It is part of this education, spiritual education. And not to eat more than necessary. Then you'll not sleep more. You'll find, if you observe fast, you won't feel sleepy. Have you tested this?
Gargamuni: Yes. I can remember.
Prabhupāda: Therefore ekādaśī. One day or two days in the month he should practice fasting, and then he'll be able to conquer over these things. These are all practical. So we should practice ourself and teach others. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And if he thinks that he's quite all right in this material atmosphere, then he's doomed. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti. That means aprāpya mām— without achieving Kṛṣṇa— nivartante— again he goes back- mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani BG 9.3 —the cycle of birth and death. Take one birth, suffer, again take another body, again take another body, another body. There are 400..., eight million four hundred... That's all. Sometimes so-called happiness, he is born as demigod, sometimes as dog, sometimes as insect, sometimes as tree. What is this business? "I am eternal. Why shall I suffer this?" This is sense. They are simply trying how to become a hog, how to become a dog, or how to become a god. God you cannot become. You may have some partial happiness just like the demigods. They have got power. They have got high standard of living. But that does not mean the solution of the problem. Solution of problem means no more birth, no more death. That is solution. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti BG 9.3 . That is solution. And if he remains in the birth-and-death cycle, that is not solution of material problem. Who can understand this science? They have accepted birth and death. But birth they do not believe. They think accidentally it grows within the womb, a lump of matter, and at a certain stage there is life. This is their... Do they not think like that?
Satsvarūpa: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Fetus. By sex there is some reaction of flesh and blood and something comes out.
Gargamuni: Chemical reaction.
Prabhupāda: So poor fund of knowledge. Accident? Kim anyat kāma-haitukam. "A man and woman becomes lusty, they have sex, and it, the body, the form, comes out. So you can cut it and then eat it." Very horrible condition of the human civilization. It is the only institution throughout the whole world who are trying to deliver people from this ignorance. We are the only. All bogus. They do not know anything, what is religion, what is happiness, what is spiritual life. Nobody knows. No... But that was covered. Now we are opening religion. The thing was there. It is not our invention, neither we can invent. But it is still unknown, and therefore they are unhappy. Their primary problem, where to live, how to eat, how to cover—that we shall take charge. Then what is the problem? You have got free boarding, free lodging, free cloth, and so much enlightenment. What do you want more?
Satsvarūpa: Some people don't like to live in the community.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Satsvarūpa: Some people, they don't want to join...
Prabhupāda: Community, if you don't, you independently live. But this is the principle.
Satsvarūpa: Yes. They can do that in their house. They can live in their house and do all that.
Prabhupāda: Wherever you live, this is the principle.
Gargamuni: There are many people who are doing that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not?
Gargamuni: They are offering their food, they have...
Prabhupāda: There is no question. Community means to help one another. If you can help yourself, do it.
Satsvarūpa: But at least meet with us for training, for classes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is training. Community means I learn from you; you learn from the principles. But if you don't like community, you do it yourself. But this is opportunity. You learn it. Sādhu-saṅga CC Madhya 22.83 . By association of... And we must be sādhus. If we are also dogs and hogs, what they will learn?
Gargamuni: Rāmeśvara told me that in ISKCON mail order there are many people outside who are following. They are offering their food, having kīrtanas.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, you can accept a suitable situation according to your convenience. There is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Four orders are there. Whichever is suitable for you, accept. But don't forget the problem and the aim of life. And we don't want men giving some quotation from a book just like these so-called scholars do. He has not gone through the book, but take some suitable passage and note, and then he advertises himself that he has studied so many book. "Bibliography." Is it not? So-called scholar?
Satsvarūpa: Footnotes, bibliography.
Prabhupāda: Footnote scholar they are now.
Satsvarūpa: One professor, I showed him your book. He said, "This is not a scholarly book. It has no footnotes." His definition. Simply looked for the footnotes.
Gargamuni: I met one professor in Lucknow University. For his own self he purchased all of your books. And I asked him, "Can you help us to meet more professors in Lucknow University who also can take?" He said, "They are all debauch."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gargamuni: "They are in the bar." He says they all go to the hotel. They get paid high salary. They go to the hotel, they drink and they have prostitute. He told me this.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Gargamuni: I said, "Just see." And these are so-called big professors.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gargamuni: Authors of books. He said, "They will not purchase. But I think these are valuable. Therefore I am purchasing." He told me this.
Prabhupāda: This is the fact.
Gargamuni: So all of these men are nonsense. But people accept their...
Prabhupāda: So we have no business to print other books of Gosvāmī literature.
Satsvarūpa: To cater to them.
Prabhupāda: That is not required.
Gargamuni: They won't follow, anyway.
Prabhupāda: These two books, Bhāgavata and Bhagavad-gītā, if they actually read and assimilate, their life will be successful. So we want to organize widespread publicity of these books. They'll be benefited.
Satsvarūpa: I think one important principle in this individual book-selling will be a science to find out of all the masses people, the likelier people... (end)