[[Category:1977 - Lectures, Conversations and Letters]]
[[Category:1977-06 - Conversations and Letters]]
[[Category:Conversations - India]]
[[Category:Conversations - India, Vrndavana]]
[[Category:Lectures, Conversations and Letters - India]]
[[Category:Lectures, Conversations and Letters - India, Vrndavana]]
[[Category:Conversations and Lectures with Bengali Snippets]]
[[Category:Audio Files 10.01 to 20.00 Minutes]]
[[Category:1977 - New Audio - Released in July 2012]]
<div style="float:left">[[File:Go-previous.png|link=Category:Conversations - by Date]]'''[[:Category:Conversations - by Date|Conversations by Date]], [[:Category:1977 - Conversations|1977]]'''</div>
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Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...Calcutta yesterday all day. I was stranded for several hours.
<div class="code">770620R1-VRNDAVAN - June 20, 1977 - 14:26 Minutes</div>
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . Calcutta yesterday all day. I was stranded for several hours.
Prabhupāda: So this can be given to the Deities, these flowers.
Prabhupāda: So this can be given to the Deities, these flowers.
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Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're very nice. Are they scented?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're very nice. Are they scented?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some... We have another one. It has 108 petals exactly. It's white when full bloomed. Just started, this monsoon. The full season will come sometime in August, August and September. Lotus are everywhere, these flowers, on either side of the road, and all lakes full of lotuses.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some scent. We have another one. It has 108 petals exactly. It's white when full bloomed. Just started, this monsoon. The full season will come sometime in August, August and September. Lotus are everywhere, these flowers, on either side of the road, and all lakes full of lotuses.
Prabhupāda: Pineapple, your country is famous for pineapple.
Prabhupāda: Pineapple. Your country is famous for pineapple.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Pineapple is very sweet. This is another season, but in about three weeks the larger variety will come. This is a little smaller type. The bigger ones, big. And it is green outside, but it's very sweet, full of juice. The hillsides all covered with pineapples, and it's very cheap.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Pineapple is very sweet. This is another season, but in about three weeks the larger variety will come. This is a little smaller type. The bigger ones, big. And it is green outside, but it's very sweet, full of juice. The hillsides all covered with pineapples, and it's very cheap.
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Prabhupāda: So Calcutta, there was rain.
Prabhupāda: So Calcutta, there was rain.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. The farming is very good this time in our side, Bengal and Assam and Manipur, so much rain from the south. And I saw from the plane that everything is already green.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. The farming is very good this time in our side, Bengal and in Assam and in Manipur. So much rain from the south. And I saw from the plane that everything is already green.
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Why you are breathing? Is it necessary? [break]
Prabhupāda: (aside) Why you are bringing? Is it necessary? (break)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But he doesn't want to speak.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But he doesn't want to speak.
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Prabhupāda: You have asked him already?
Prabhupāda: You have asked him already?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, I said, "We are coming in September," so he's... We'll be giving lectures there. And the Atishah(?) personally told me that he never thought these ideas before. He said this is the first time that he's seeing such things, that science can be utilized in understanding the nature of the self or life from Bhagavad-gītā. Then I also went to Bose Institute. I wanted to talk with the dir...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, I said: "We are coming in September," so he's . . . we'll be giving lectures there. And the Atishah personally told me that he never thought these ideas before. He said this is the first time that he's seeing such things, that science can be utilized in understanding the nature of the self or life from ''Bhagavad-gītā''. Then I also went to Bose Institute. I wanted to talk with the dir . . .
Prabhupāda: Oh, Bose Institute.
Prabhupāda: Oh, Bose Institute.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The director wasn't there, but there was very leading professor. His name was Amrtabal Singh. He's the..., just next to the...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. The director wasn't there, but there was very leading professor. His name was Amrtabal Singh. He's the . . . just next to the . . .
Prabhupāda: Woman? Woman?
Prabhupāda: Woman? Woman?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, no, Amrtabal Singh is the name. And he told me he didn't have time to talk with me because, he said, he had a meeting. So I told him that I just came to see the director, but since the director is not there I just want to let him know that "We want to hold a conference on life sciences and Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so if you are interested, I'd like to invite you because you're a leading scientist. And the Bose Institute is quite well known. So I'd like you to participate in our conference." Then he asked me, "What is that conference?" Then I started describing about the way modern science is going at this time. "Science says that everything is molecules. So what do you think as a scientist? Now, the way we communicate... I talk with you, and you talk to me, but the way we communicate, science say that these are just chemical reactions. You talk because of some chemical reactions. And so what do you think about this modern philosophy?" Then I started talking about the very unsatisfactory explanations of these ideas according to modern science and trying to introduce concept of Bhagavad-gītā, that "Life is nonchemical and nonphysical. It is spiritual. When we study physics, chemistry and mathematics, we simply study matter, but actually we don't really study life. But modern science says that life is nothing but chemicals. So we are determined to show to the people, especially to the leading scientists, that the knowledge that we have is all wrong. There must be something beyond that we just know so far." Then he started taking great interest, and I talked with him for a little more than an hour. He... And even he was thinking of postponing that... He had a meeting, and he telephoned. He said... He said he started discussing with me, and the talk became so interesting that he postponed the meeting. He even said. (laughs) So he was very nice, actually. He said that he agrees that in the Western..., especially in the United States, the leading scientists are taking too much for granted. They're saying too much, very unscientific, saying that life started from molecules. He said it's all unknown. These are all stories. So he said that it's a little too much. Science doesn't know these things. He agreed to that point very clearly. I said, "Do you think scientists like...? It is your responsibility, especially from this land, to show that the concept..."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, no, Amrtabal Singh is the name. And he told me he didn't have time to talk with me because, he said, he had a meeting. So then I just told him that I just came to see the director, but since the director is not there I just want to let him know that, "We want to hold a conference on life sciences and Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so if you are interested, I'd like to invite you because you're a leading scientist. And the Bose Institute is quite well known. So I'd like you to participate in our conference." Then he asked me, "What is that conference?" Then I started describing about the way modern science is going at this time. "Science says that everything is molecules. So what do you think as a scientist? Now, the way we communicate . . . I talk with you, and you talk to me, but the way we communicate, science say that these are just chemical reactions. You talk because of some chemical reactions. And so what do you think about this modern philosophy?" Then I started talking about the very unsatisfactory explanations of these ideas according to modern science and trying to introduce concept of ''Bhagavad-gītā'' that, "Life is nonchemical and nonphysical. It is spiritual. When we study physics, chemistry and mathematics, we simply study matter, but actually we don't really study life. But modern science says that life is nothing but chemicals. So we are determined to show to the people, especially to the leading scientists, that the knowledge that we have is all wrong. There must be something beyond that we just know so far." Then he started taking great interest, and I talked with him for a little more than an hour. He . . . and even he was thinking of postponing that . . . he had a meeting, and he telephoned. He said . . . he started discussing with me, and the talk became so interesting that he postponed the meeting. He even said. (laughs) So he was very nice, actually. He said that he agrees that in the Western . . . especially in the United States, the leading scientists are taking too much for granted. They're saying too much, very unscientific, saying that life started from molecules. He said it's all unknown. These are all stories. So he said that it's a little too much. Science doesn't know these things. He agreed to that point very clearly. I said: "Do you think scientists like . . .? It is your responsibility, especially from this land, to show that the concept . . ."
Prabhupāda: We know.
Prabhupāda: We know.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. And he actually was very interested, and he told me to write about Mandeha(?), the director, so that they can make arrangements and so we can speak. So I just had few hours, and I wanted to go to the Indian school for experimental medicine that is in Jadavpur. I know the director. The director is from Calcutta University, and I just about to see him, but I couldn't see him. I didn't have the time. But we have, I think, plenty of scope, doing these things on a wider scale.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. And he actually was very interested, and he told me to write about Mandeha, the director, so that they can make arrangements and so we can speak. So I just had these few hours, and I wanted to go to the Indian school for experimental medicine that is in Jadavpur. I know the director. The director is from Calcutta University, and I just about to see him, but I couldn't see him. I didn't have the time. So . . . but we have, I think, plenty of scope, doing these things on a wider scale.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And I also published this little concept about what these, all these lectures is about. So it says, "Announcing a worldwide lecture tour on the origin of life and matter, sponsored by Bhaktivedanta Institute for Higher Studies, Founder- Ācārya His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda." And then I give a whole series from here to here, and I also give the topics and...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And I also published this little concept about what these, all these lectures is about. So it says: "Announcing a worldwide lecture tour on the origin of life and matter, sponsored by Bhaktivedanta Institute for Higher Studies, Founder-Ācārya His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda." And then I gave a whole series from here to here, and I also gave the topics and . . .
Prabhupāda: Very nice.
Prabhupāda: Very nice.
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Svarūpa Dāmodara: So like to hear a little bit?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So like to hear a little bit?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (Svarūpa Dāmodara reads pamphlet announcing worldwide lecture tour of Bhaktivedanta Institute) All glories to Svarūpa Dāmodara.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. And I already got some very positive remarks, especially in Manipur. They invited us... There is a center called Bhaktambabu(?) Research Center in Manipur, so they invited for a speaking engagement. They wanted in printed form so that they also publish. There is a Jawaharlal University in Manipur, and there is also low college. In several college they already invited.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Said: "Bhaktivedanta Institute is a center for advanced studies in the research into the Vedic scientific knowledge concerning the nature of consciousness and the self. This institute is the academic division of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness and consists of a body of scientists and scholars who have recognized the unique . . . (indistinct) . . . of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda's teachings who brought Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the West. The main purpose of the Institute is to explore the implications of the Vedic knowledge as it appears in all features of main culture, and to present these findings in courses, lectures, and audio-visual aides, monographs, books and a quarterly journal, ''Sa-vijñānam'', etc."
"The Institute presents most specifically modern science and other fields of knowledge in light of the Vaiṣṇava philosophy and tradition, providing a completely new perspective on the reality, quite different from that of modern educational systems. One reason for the increasing interest of the Western and the young intellectuals in Śrīla Prabhupāda's teachings is doubtlessly the growing awareness that in spite of their scientific and technological advancements, the real goal of human life has somehow been missed. The philosophy of the Bhaktivedanta Institute begins from a totally different premise from that of modern science. The central doctrine of modern science is that all phenomena, including those of life and consciousness, can be fully explained and understood by the . . . (indistinct) . . . of matter alone. The dictum that life is a manifestation of matter is indeed the ultimate rationale for the entire civilization of material aggrandizement. The ''Vedas'', on the other hand, teach that conscious life is original, fundamental and eternal. This in fact is the essence of ''Bhagavad-gītā'': ''ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate'' (10.8). On this fundamental and critical point, modern science and the Vedic knowledge find themselves opposed."
"The Bhaktivedanta Institute has therefore begun a worldwide lecture tour in order to bring this most fundamental knowledge to every continent. This Institute is clearly demonstrating that the Vedic version is not a matter simply of faith or belief but is scientific in the strict sense of the term. Although many of its features may appear difficult to verify experimentally, others have direct implications concerning what one may expect to observe, as this viewpoint will show as a stimulating challenge to the truly scientific state, to whom we owe the very restricted framework imposed upon our scientific understanding of nature for the past 200 years. Modern science started as an experiment to see how far matter could be explained without invoking God. The Bhaktivedanta Institute has come forward to introduce Vedic knowledge on a genuinely scientific basis for the first time in the history of this modern scientific age. The lecture series in the Indian subcontinent will start from September 1977 and last until February 1978. We request the scientists, scholars and students to kindly participate in this most challenging educational program, which will open up wide fields for fertile thought and meaningful study."
"Some of the topics are listed as follows: 1. What is life and what is matter? 2. Quantum theory and the laws of consciousness. 3. New scientific paradigm . . . (indistinct) . . . beyond the laws of nature 4. Demonstration by information theory and computer science that life cannot arise from matter. 5. Chemical evolution—a molecular fairytale. 6. Genetic engineering and biomedical ethics. 7. Philosophy and psychology of science. 8. Paramātmā and the process of acquiring knowledge. 9. Scientific message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. 10. The origin of life and matter. "
"For further information, please contact Western headquarter, United States; Eastern headquarter, Bombay; and spiritual headquarter, Vṛndāvana." (laughter)
Prabhupāda: (laughs) All glories to Svarūpa Dāmodara.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. And I already got some very positive remarks, especially in Manipur. They invited us . . . there is a center called Bhaktambabu Research Center in Manipur, so they invited for a speaking engagement. They wanted to get it in printed form so that they also publish in the university. There is a Jawaharlal University in Manipur, and there is also law college. In several college they already invited.
Prabhupāda: So the Bose Institute of Research, they have invited you?
Prabhupāda: So the Bose Institute of Research, they have invited you?
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Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Did you not mention...?
Prabhupāda: Did you not mention . . .?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh... Yeah, I haven't mentioned it yet.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh . . . this was . . . yeah, I haven't mentioned it yet.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did this article come out after?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did this article come out after?
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Prabhupāda: So let them issue later on, and you can make.
Prabhupāda: So let them issue later on, and you can make.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sometime we are preparing, called, a brochure for this lecture series. We'll make it color. So I already have the outline in Boston. So we're titling, " Announcing a Worldwide Lecture Series on the Origin of Life in the Matter, sponsored by Bhaktivedanta Institute for Higher Studies and Founder- Ācārya His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda." And we have some colored pictures inside and a little also, synopsis of the theme, the topics. We said, "Chemical Evolution-A Molecular Fairy Tale," and we have about three or four lines describing what the lecture should be about and what is the main theme of the talk. And we also have photographs of four or five of us who are going to speak and a little background of the candidate. So we wanted to make it very official.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sometime we are preparing, called, a brochure for this lecture series. We'll make it color. So I already have the outline in Boston. So we're titling, "Announcing a Worldwide Lecture Series on the Origin of Life in the Matter, sponsored by Bhaktivedanta Institute for Higher Studies and Founder-Ācārya His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda." And we have some colored pictures inside and a little, also, synopsis of the theme, the topics. We say: "Chemical Evolution—A Molecular Fairy Tale," and we have about three or four lines describing what the lecture should be about and what is the main theme of the talk. And we also have photographs of four or five of us who are going to speak and a little background of the candidate. So we wanted to make it very official.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
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Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, money is ready there. Svarūpa Dāmodara hasn't heard yet about Ambarīṣa's offer.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, money is ready there. Svarūpa Dāmodara hasn't heard yet about Ambarīṣa's offer.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I haven't heard about this?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I haven't heard about this.
Prabhupāda: For starting our museum.
Prabhupāda: For starting our museum.
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Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So Ambarīṣa is buying...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So Ambarīṣa is buying . . .
Prabhupāda: He is prepared to pay us about two hundred...
Prabhupāda: He is prepared to pay us about two hundred . . .
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Thousand(?).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Thousand.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Jaya. That's wonderful. In Washington it will be very nice, the center of the world.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ''Jaya''. That's wonderful. In Washington it will be very nice, the center of the world.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we'll all save our Bhaktivedanta...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we'll all save our Bhaktivedanta . . .
Prabhupāda: Three? Three hundred million?
Prabhupāda: Three? Three hundred million?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said... He has thirty million dollars.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said . . . he has thirty million dollars.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think that will be very attractive, and it will open up wide cultural aspects of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And we will also have our institute in Washington, D.C...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think that will be very attractive, and it will open up wide cultural aspects of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And we will also have our institute in Washington, D.C . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is money, there is intelligence and... That's all. I can give you one... (indistinct) You have taken your lunch now?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is money, there is intelligence and . . . that's all. I can give you one . . . (indistinct) . . . you have taken your lunch now?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, we'll take prasādam.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, we'll take ''prasādam''.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: <span style="color:#ff9933">Dao prasad, dao.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(Okay, give me ''prasādam''.)</span>
Svarūpa Dāmodara: You look better, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: You look better, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Acchā? [break] ...I want.
Prabhupāda: ''Acchā''? (break) (end)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Neither would simply just begging some rice and dāl to feed ourselves.
Prabhupāda: Now Kṛṣṇa is (indistinct) [break] Do you think that the..., if the scientists attend meeting, they are interested? Or they feeling dry?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think they are very interested, very much. Otherwise they won't take time to discuss. In fact, some of them feel that it's very unique.
Prabhupāda: Unique it is. There was no such proposal before. They have taken God as something mystic, imagination. Especially this rascal Darwin's theory, "People are animals," and they accept that "We are animals. My father was monkey." Very easy. This rascal has convinced them that "Your father, grandfather, were monkeys, and you are Sir Walton Rose(?)." "How I became a Sir Walton Rose, the son of a monkey?" This is their business. How much bluff. Disgusted learning and jump. A monkey has become man. Body's changed.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is just nonsense.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is nonsense.
Prabhupāda: Full nonsense, this rascal. How much havoc he has done to the human society. A grand rascal, this Darwin. And he is taken as the basic principle of anthropology. The whole world has become... So all scientists, by combined meeting, they should kick out his Darwin theory. All, they should modify... (pause) Long, long ago, before, things were there. Nobody knows how long. In the Padma Purāṇa it is said, bhramyādbhir jīva-jātiṣu. You know this word?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Bhramyādbhiḥ. There are different forms of bodies of jīva. That is also stated. Jalajā nava-lakṣānī sthavara lakṣa-vimśati. So first of all, general, from water. That you have got experience. Fish is coming. As soon as there is some reservoir of water, after some day mosquito will come, fish will come, many other bugs and germs will come, jalajā. And their number is also given, nava-lakṣānī. In this way, bhramyādbhir jīva-jāti, the soul, the living entity, is wandering, jīva-jātiṣu. Then he gets a human form of life. The civilization is there. And five thousand years ago Kṛṣṇa said, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [[BG 2.13]] . So what this nonsense Darwin will tell us? Rascals. We have already information- jīva-jāti, they are already existing, one after another. [break] "...missing, fossil." What is this nonsense? What is missing? The monkeys, they, your father, is there, monkey. Where is monkey is missing? Your father, grandfather is there. So why you have got this body of all a sudden? Enjoy. You have to accept. You are changing body from monkey to man. So these so-called scientists, they are hovering for some false understanding. Now they should come to welcome this point and accept that living entity is completely different from these eight elements, physical or chemical or mental. This should be propagated. Then they will understand what about this spiritual... Actually the spirit soul is the basis of all activities. Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate... [[BG 2.13]]. Actually, because the living entity is there, all activities are going on. Who else would have taken care of this garden unless there was a living entity? Not that all of a sudden the bricks have developed to become a fountain. What is this nonsense? Such a rascal scientific theory?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Chance.
Prabhupāda: Chance? Chance is science?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we are proving that all their theories are wrong.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: One by one.
Prabhupāda: Yes, do that. Why one should be kept in darkness in the name of science? This is our proposal. Jñāna-khale. Sarasvatī-jñāna-khale yad asati. Jñāna-khala. We have got this knowledge. Why should we suppress this knowledge? We must distribute. These rascals will keep the whole human society in suppressed knowledge.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For money.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Cheating.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I saw a newsletter issued by the International Society for the Study of the Origin of Life from Chemicals. They just had an international meeting in Japan this April, and I am a member, so they send me a newsletter, national newsletter. They have interesting schemes. The next meeting is in 1981 in Israel. I was actually thinking of presenting a paper in the last meeting, but time was little short for us. So we are thinking of presenting papers in that international meeting. It is a whole scientific community all over. So I thought it will be very interesting to present our viewpoint and make it very strong. We are very small in number, but our thoughts will be very challenging to all of them, especially mathematics and physical chemistry together. They also have a journal, the Journal of the Origin of Life, and there the write only about chemicals. Everything is just like a story. So we make it a fairy tale, the molecular fairy tale, and it's very appropriate. All are stories.
Prabhupāda: They invented stories for going to the moon planet.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, they're making stories about everything.
Prabhupāda: A small toy sputnik, background, a big picture, and photograph.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did you see that article, "Moon Hoax?"
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Our Back to Godhead ?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, there's an article that was published in a paper in America called "Moon Hoax."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I didn't see.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll show you that article.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Time Magazine?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, in a weekly newspaper from Pennsylvania.
Prabhupāda: No, there are companies. They came to us. Your theory they'll present in a scientific way, so-called scientific way.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, company.
Prabhupāda: They have got all toys and take photograph.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I am also feeling that in the last, about five years ago, scientists, though they were very arrogant about ten years ago, seems a feeling that they may be little bit on the humble side. They are not as arrogant as they used to be, say, ten years ago. We couldn't talk these things in the West, but now, since they promised all these things, and up till now, actually, we have all those things that they promised about ten years ago. Now nothing's happening. So they're making a second thought, that maybe whatever they thought, it's all wrong, so...
Prabhupāda: It is wrong.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's very timely that we present our philosophy and science just in the right time.
Prabhupāda: Now they will think twice.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This movement is very dangerous. They'll see. First they though it was simply some people clapping cymbals. Now they're beginning to feel the weight, these scientists especially.
Prabhupāda: Just like Tṛṇāvarta. He took away Kṛṣṇa as a small child. When he was up, He became as heavy as the mountain, and then he could not go up. Then he wanted to smash the child and throw it, but the child wrapped the neck of Tṛṇāvarta in such a way, he could not. The result was that he fell down and died. And the child was saved.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So in the same way Western civilization will fall down and die, and we will go on chanting.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: If we get some very leading scientists in the world on our side, at least few, let's say about three, that's enough.
Prabhupāda: So that I am asking to enroll as members of the Bhaktivedanta Institute.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That must have come from the United States.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got enough material to convince. We are not blind.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why do they have to come in the United States?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Well, people nowadays expect, if anything comes from the States, that's a fact. So sometime all the leading scientists of the world are in the States. Even if they are coming from other countries, they all get together in the States. Everybody goes there. So something is coming from the States, it is formally respected by all the big men all over the world. So that is why I want to attack United States as my last, bringing men from all over. Then we can make a strong presentation in the States.
Prabhupāda: And actually it so happened. Who would have joined unless I would have gone from United States? Useless. Their money, their men, they are helping. That's a fact. And that was my aim.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You tried here first.
Prabhupāda: And they are useless here, waste of time. Neither I wanted to go to London. "New York I shall go."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyone else would have gone to London.
Prabhupāda: Yes, to go to the Western countries means to go to England. I didn't like that. I thought, "I shall go to New York."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very modern thinking, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa has arranged.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everybody's attracted to go to the States nowadays. Even I was attracted. When I had a choice to go any place in the world 'cause I got a scholarship from Indian government, a Western scholarship. I could study in any part of the world, and I could choose any school I liked. And I told the interview board in Delhi... There was a man from England at that time. I told him that "I don't want to go to England." (Prabhupāda laughs) So he was little offended.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nowadays all students, scholars, going outside means going to the States. That is the...
Prabhupāda: They give facility. No, I have got good respect for America.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, I'm sure that the scientists, some of the leading scientists, will accept.
Prabhupāda: I therefore say America is my fatherland. India is my motherland.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, in the normal dealing also...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...the Americans are very friendly, very nice actually, in general. When I studied in California, I was a stranger, but everybody looked like a friend, very different from England. England is very conservative. They don't say hello, and different.
Prabhupāda: England, nonsense number one. Worst false prestige, England. In that respect, other countries are better. They had a British Empire. They are still puffed up. And they will stay there to continue British Empire. Now they are earning money for eating, showing British Parliament House. Now there is no business.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They make money by tour of the Parliament House.
Prabhupāda: "Shopkeepers' nation." The Parliament has become a shop. Artificially they're maintaining an atmosphere of aristocracy. There is not... I talked with some of their Lords. Artificial. The have lost all prestige. Still, "I belong to the Lords' House." The priestly order, the Lord family, I talked with them. Simply artificial.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually you gave it up as useless. To talk with those priestly orders, I remember, you concluded, "This is a waste of time." They're not at all priestly.
Prabhupāda: They have no intelligence. Anyway, do something.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I want to clarify a point. The other day I was discussing with this Professor Kundu...
Prabhupāda: Professor Kundu is a famous man, I think.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes, he's the director. He works on the nature of consciousness. He has great interest in Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Was he in Scottish Churches College?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I never know his background.
Prabhupāda: I think in our student there was some Kundu. The same?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He looks like in his sixties.
Prabhupāda: Oh, then... May or may not. It doesn't matter.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We were discussing about life, and he was talking about the idea that Kṛṣṇa is within the atom.
Prabhupāda: Atom is matter. And within atom there is God. That is God.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the point was...
Prabhupāda: They have not fully analyzed within the atom.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the point was that there is life within the atom. But that life is not... The consciousness is not developing to the extent that...
Prabhupāda: That is very natural. Just like in a child there is life. But it is not... Consciousness is not developed. That does not mean there is no life. That you can see, daily affair. The same child, when he's grown up or changed body, his activities will change. So where is the difference? Difference—when he was a childish body, the consciousness was not developed, and when he's transferred in another body, his consciousness will develop. This is the point. The ant, there is life.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There's life in any material...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we wanted to avoid that...
Prabhupāda: In the physical combination of atoms is combination of life also.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In order to make a distinction between that life and the matter, especially to the material scientific community, we were thinking of presenting in the manner that matter, though in the spiritual sense there is nothing like matter, but still, there is matter...
Prabhupāda: No, there is no... Matter means matter develops on spirit. Without spirit there is no existence of matter. Just like spirit means consciousness. You see in this finger. Here is consciousness, and little after, there is no consciousness, this nail. But the nail has grown from the skin. So therefore, from consciousness, unconsciousness... Not that from unconsciousness, consciousness.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good example.
Prabhupāda: Unconsciousness means absence of consciousness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Unconsciousness also means no life?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Originally conscious. When there is forgetfulness, that is not. So unconsciousness is a covering of life. You develop this argument. There is no such thing as unconsciousness, but when the consciousness is covered, that is unconsciousness, negation.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That becomes matter.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we say, "matter." Absence of consciousness is matter, jaḍa.
Satadhanya: We say "covered consciousness."
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Bhakti-cāru: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the body is matter, but still it is conscious as long as I am alive. So that means the life is consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the distinction that we are making is still proper, that matter is the inferior part of that Absolute Truth, and life is the superior part, and without being manipulated...
Prabhupāda: Superior feature.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. But both are spirit in a sense.
Prabhupāda: Everything is spirit. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Therefore I say there is no matter. Only matter means when the spirit is not discovered. When people are rascals, then there is matter. When people are intelligent, there is no matter. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Therefore Māyāvādī philosophy, that "You are thinking you are not God," that is māyā.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like a kīrtana party now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: This is kīrtana, going on. You do not understand what is kīrtana. Any topics on Kṛṣṇa, that is kīrtana. Abhavad vaiyāsakī kīrtane. Vaiyāsakī, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, he became perfect by kīrtana. What kind of kīrtana did he do? Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhāgavata discussion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You are thinking simply by lungs and karatala, kīrtana will go on. Anything we do here, there is no material connection. It is spiritual. We are not talking for how to increase our business and enjoy women and wine. That is not our business. Yad uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam [[SB 1.5.22]] . We are trying to establish Kṛṣṇa. Uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. And that is kīrtana. (pause) Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [[SB 1.5.22]] . Hm? You know this?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just explain this.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The other day, when I went from Delhi to Calcutta in the plane, I happened to see that Dr. Chatterjee from Calcutta University. She's a lady, woman, but she's very well known. International scientist she has become. Her name is Asina Chatterjee. And I never saw here, though I was studying side by side in the next building, in Calcutta University. She discovered some drug. That's why she became famous. And she's also a member of Council of Scientific and Industrial Research all over India, and also a member of University Grants Commission. So she told me that she went for a meeting to attend in Delhi, and there was also an engineer who was sitting in between me and her, and I was discussing about our plan for scientific conference on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He was also Bengali from Calcutta. Somehow she became very interested. I was explaining how scientists misleading, thinking that life can be chemical. And I was describing about how life can be nonchemical and nonphysical. So Chatterjee immediately joined the talk. And I immediately recognized that she must be Chatterjee. So I asked her, "Are you Dr. Chatterjee?" I never saw her before, but I just guessed right. She was Dr. Asina Chatterjee. And she became very interested in the talk, and then she was completely agreeing to our discussion that life is something spiritual, beyond physics and chemistry. So she actually invited me to come and give a talk in chemistry department Calcutta University. So I said that we are coming back with our scientific group from Kṛṣṇa consciousness and would like to present the philosophy in that chemistry department. So like that, there are many...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Recruit them, at least some.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Very favorable and a person like that, by Kṛṣṇa's mercy... I never saw her before, but just happened to be in the right time. And she thought that whatever is thinking in the Western thought about this Darwinian philosophy is also wrong. So I requested her that "It is your duty or responsibility as a leading scientist at least to also present this knowledge. You only accept that whatever knowledge is coming from the West, especially in the science, that that is the ultimate. Why don't you also present this genuine scientific knowledge of the Gītā as factual science? That way..."
Prabhupāda: Or very...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: She said yes. She actually felt the necessity, and she was actually praising a lot about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that such things are being discussed in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness society, and she had a great hope that this can be pushed on and the philosophy can be very accepted in the scientific community. So I request her also to help us in different capacities. She can write articles, we can publish in this journal, Sa-vijñānam. We can print it and publicize more on the presentation of Vedic scientific knowledge. So like that, I want to generate some momentum among the leading Indian scientists.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Do.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It will be very helpful. And I think it is also their responsibility, duty.
Prabhupāda: Great duty, great respons...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I told the same thing to this Professor Kundu, that "You know all these things, but you just remain silent. You never speak out. You only accept that whatever quantum theory is coming from that West, that is all knowledge, scientific knowledge. What about this aspect?"
Prabhupāda: Sir Jagadish was influenced.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. That is why we want to have a very strong discussion in Bose Institute.
Prabhupāda: He wanted to give to the Western world that there is life in plants, the same Vedic knowledge. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think you mention in one of your books that he has proved that the plants also have feelings.
Prabhupāda: Hm. That is his contribution. He is the first man.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did you know him, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: No. He was also older than our father. But I have seen him in childhood, when I was ten, twelve years old. Very intelligent man, soft speaker. His... This Marconi's theory is his theory. The wireless... The thief has taken. They have stolen. And the British government gave credit to Marconi. He was very sad.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That everybody knows.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The wireless, there was a system. That was his discovery. He was very sorry. The British government stole the idea and gave the credit to Marconi. The Britishers, they always wanted to minimize the value of India, that "They are not civilized. We are present there to make them civilized."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very... The English were expert in diplomacy.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they paid.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Dr. Sharma here, he was saying that the English, they took advantage of..., I think it was either Cāṇakya Paṇḍita or one other book about military ruling, some book. Every one of them would have a copy translated into English. They'd all keep a copy of it on their desk, how to subdue by diplomacy and politics. They were all told to learn this book.
Prabhupāda: Saṁrāṭ Veda(?). That is another.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I'm thinking of the title of our conference as "Bhaktivedanta Vijñāna Conference."
Prabhupāda: They'll take it farce, that "Bhaktivedanta is no a vaijñānī. "
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It will be scientific conference.
Prabhupāda: It may be, but they will take it lightly because "Bhaktivedanta Swami is not a scientist."
Bhakti-cāru: Yeah, but you are above science, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, this will be "Bhaktivedanta Vijñāna Conference." That includes everything.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That you can...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I have taken that idea because in the United States there is a conference called Garden(?) Conference, and I want to develop this in the future as a regular feature of our movement, organize this conference all over the world. We'll title as "Bhaktivedanta Vijñāna Conference," and it involves all sources of knowledge. Just like Garden Conference. They have a meeting in Boston, in Harvard, in chemistry, and Garden Conference is in all fields, in physics, chemistry, the humanities. It is very respected all over the academic world. So we also wanted to generate a spiritual scientific conference along these lines.
Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta is spiritual.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So is that title sound not so attractive, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Yes, but they may not take it seriously.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Seriously.
Prabhupāda: Yes, personal. Vedānta means last knowledge. Vedānta is there. And that last knowledge is bhakti. Therefore bhakti-vedanta is most scientific.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They should learn the real meaning of Bhaktivedanta. They take it wrongly, but we should teach them what is the real meaning, that it is scientific. You always point out that sometimes people say that bhakti is sentimental, but where is there more scientific person than Jīva Gosvāmī, more philosophical?
Prabhupāda: Mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param. It is the last stage of knowledge. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [[BG 18.54]] . When you surpass all the stages... Mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param. It is the last word of knowledge. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. So unless you understand the supreme cause, Kṛṣṇa, there is no knowledge. And if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you understand everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. Kṛṣṇa also says, aham ādir hi devānām [[BG 18.54]] , ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [[BG 18.54]] . If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then everything.... And how Kṛṣṇa can be understood? Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [[BG 18.54]] . No other way. You cannot understand by any other way. Therefore bhakti-vedanta is last knowledge. There is.... Argument there is.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The reaction from that Dr. Kundu... As soon as I said Bhaktivedanta, he immediately realized that this is the personal aspect or, they would say, the personalism or Vaiṣṇava philosophy. So it is also a good fact on those who know some meaning about this. So we can make it...
Prabhupāda: Unless there is personal conception, there is no question of bhakti. [break] Bhakti means the way to understand the person. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [[BG 18.55]] . Mām means person, aham, mām. Vague idea, Brahman; distributed idea, Paramātmā; and the personal idea can be applied here. It is said, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [[BG 18.55]] . It is not impersonal, not scattered. Particular person, Kṛṣṇa. When Yaśodā-mā was allowing her child to suck her breast, the child was.... And Yasoda mother was enjoying the beautiful face, patting. But all of a sudden she saw within the mouth the whole universe. Immediately she became disturbed: "Another danger is coming." She's not concerned with Kṛṣṇa's expansive, gorgeous.... She's only concern is to Kṛṣṇa, what.... She became disturbed: "What is this nonsense? Again something is coming, danger? Let me remember Nārāyaṇa. He'll save my child from all..." The personal conception is so strong that he (she) disliked to see gorgeous opulence of his (her)...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore it transcends jñāna.
Prabhupāda: That is jñāna.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's so scientific, it's very difficult to also describe it, especially in scientific language.
Prabhupāda: Why you have to do?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are describing that life, or ātmā, as such. Sometimes they ask, "Show me the experiment so that I know that there is life," so we are proposing that "Yes, the experiment is bhakti-yoga. "
Prabhupāda: Another example you can give. Suppose a man is high-court judge, very... Now, his mother is feeding him, sitting down. And if the son says, "No, let me dress like a high-court judge, then I shall eat," will the mother like it? That is like...(?) "You become high-court judge and be satisfied."(?)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Once I gave a lecture at Emory University to the scientific community, and I tried to introduce this bhakti-yoga in a scientific language and found it difficult, but I tried to bring the idea by comparing that an electron... In order to study an electron, we actually take advantage of a field where an electric current can be generated. Otherwise the property of electron cannot be studied in a scientific experiment. Similarly, we established that ātmā, being nonphysical and nonchemical, is spiritual and also has personal character. We must take advantage of a personal feature where one can have direct relationship between this individual ātmā, and there should be also a supreme ātmā. And the relationship of the study of this will be the experimental study, and that experiment is bhakti-yoga.
Prabhupāda: I have several times stressed that living being is a sample of God. If you study living being, you understand God.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually it's very true and also very scientific to propose this simile because life, being nonmaterial...
Prabhupāda: It is Vedic version. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānṁ. But where is the difference? The difference is that eka is so important that He is the source of everything, and He is maintaining this bahūnām. That is... Both of them, quality, the same. But one is maintaining; others are being maintained. One is predominator; others are predominated. That is the difference. Āśraya, viśaya. So therefore when you come to the āśraya, that is perfection.
Pradyumna: We are all viśaya. Every living entity is viśaya, and Kṛṣṇa is the only...
Prabhupāda: Āśraya.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And everybody is making believe that they are āśraya, trying to gain the worship of others.
Prabhupāda: He cannot be.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: False āśraya.
Prabhupāda: All these big, big leaders, they want to become āśraya. Gandhi wanted to be āśraya. And he was kicked out: "Get out! You are viśaya. You are trying to be āśraya. " Immediately kicked out. That is false theory, Māyāvāda. Bhakativinoda āśraya... What is that song?
Satadhanya: Yaśomatī-nandana, in that last line, Bhaktivinoda āśraya.
Prabhupāda: Āśraya.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, the spiritual master is the shelter.
Prabhupāda: No, spiritual master is under the shelter of Kṛṣṇa.
Pradyumna: Spiritual master is also viśaya.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is viśaya, āśraya. Ultimate āśraya is Kṛṣṇa. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [[BG 7.7]] . There is no more superior āśraya.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Can't we say that because the spiritual master is taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa, he is also...
Prabhupāda: Therefore he is āśraya, electrified. Sākṣād-dharitvena samastra-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva, kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. Priya viśaya. Therefore he can act as āśraya. Āśraya laiyā bhaje, kṛṣṇa nāhi tāre tyaje, āra saba more akara. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Āśraya laiyā bhaje, kṛṣṇa nāhi tāre tyaje, āra saba more akara. Others simply wasting time.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The mental attitude of the inquirer or the seeker in this bhakti process, you also said, it plays a very important role in understanding this relationship between the jīva, or individual life, ātmā, and Paramātmā, these two relationships. So we proposed that since it is based on psychological interactions, willing, feeling and the thinking, so the attitude should be humble and it should not be arrogant, and it should feel the limitations. Actually we try to bring all the brahminical qualities in order to study this bhakti-yoga in a scientific manner, and we presented like that, briefly, in a scientific community, and it was mildly accepted. They were just thinking that...
Prabhupāda: Therefore in the society there must be qualified brāhmaṇa. The all rascals, śūdras, professors...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like in a scientific experiment we have so many conditions...
Prabhupāda: Just this morning I gave: bālayor anayor nṛṇāṁ brāhmaṇo rūpa... Nanda Mahārāja. Bring that book.
Upendra: Downstairs.
Prabhupāda: Tvaṁ hi (sic:) brahma-bhujaṁ śreṣṭhaḥ. Gargamuni is addressed by Nanda Mahārāja. Tvaṁ hi brahma-bhujaṁ śreṣṭhaḥ, bālayor anayor nṛṇāṁ brāhmaṇo rūpa. Seven.... Eighth Chapter. There is mark. Read there. Just let...
Pradyumna:
<div class="conv_verse">
tvaṁ hi brahma-vidāṁ śreṣṭhaḥ<br />
saṁskārān kartum arhasi<br />
bālayor anayor nṛṇāṁ<br />
janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ
</div>
Prabhupāda: Janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ. As soon as you take birth, brāhmaṇa is your guru. So where is brāhmaṇa ? Tad-vijñānarthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12] . Where is that guru? Therefore the society, chaotic condition.... As soon as you take birth, you have to accept brāhmaṇa guru. So there must be brāhmaṇas. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣṭam [[BG 4.13]] . There must be brāhmaṇas. Otherwise where is human society? It is animal society. In the animal society they are clever, enjoy. "How! How! How! How!" Jackals and tigers and big, this animal, that animal, they are everything. Where is the brāhmaṇa ? This is the first time attempt is being made—"There must be brāhmaṇas "—this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. They do not know the aim of life, how it should be organized, what kind of members there should be. No knowledge. Therefore I have challenged that "Your brain is filled up with stool. You do not know how human society is happy." Here is janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ. So where is brāhmaṇa ? Janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ.
Bhakti-cāru: (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Actually this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a process of making this animal society into human civilization. At the present moment especially, all animals. I take them as animals. Therefore I say so boldly. I care for them. They are animals. That's all. Maybe very well do. I have not said. Bhāgavata says. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [[SB 2.3.19]] . What are these leaders? Paśu. " Paśu ? And they are so much held in estimation." Whom? By whom? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ: "They are in estimation by the dogs and hogs and camels and asses." Actually they have no position. The public is dog, hog, camel and.... And they are selecting one leader. So what he should be? Another big paśu, another big camel, another big ass. That's all. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. (Bengali) A big animal. These leaders, they are only big animals. Just like in the jungle, a lion. A very powerful. Then does it mean that he's human being? He's animal. May be an elephant or lion, but he's not human being. A human child is more important than this lion. It doesn't matter that the human child is taken away by the lion and immediately killed or carried. That does not make the lion very important. (Bengali) A big paśu.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the brahminical qualifications are prerequisites to conduct this bhakti experiment. That's why we want to bring it indirectly, even in a scientific lecture, by making similes with normal conditions necessary to do any experiment. So we make it a conditions necessary. Otherwise you cannot just do experiment without...
Prabhupāda: Satya śamo damo titikṣa ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva... [[BG 18.42]]. Where is that?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Dr. Kapoor, your Godbrother? There's an article that was published in Back to Godhead. So he proves that spirit can be brought out of matter, provided that the bhakti, the brāhmaṇa, the person, develops brahminical qualities to the point of purity. And he uses the example of Prahlāda Mahārāja, that because Prahlāda Mahārāja had developed such a pure love for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa came out of a material element, the pillar, to prove Himself: "Here is God." So spirit came right out of matter. So Dr. Kapoor used the point that if you want to see spirit, qualify yourself. Then you'll be able to see spirit. You can make spirit come right out of matter.
Prabhupāda: That is sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually that's a good example, that, the one that we are using, same simile, that in order to study this life being nonphysical, so the experiment also has to be nonphysical, not that directly we observe just like any other material experiment. So those conditions necessary have to be fulfilled in order to conduct this experiment. So they become very quiet. The audience doesn't..., becomes serious, at the same time quiet. Let them think, "Yes, these things are part of the clear thinking and at very high level." So that since these experiments are nonphysical, the conditions necessary must be very subtle. And the... Because the diet that man eats also plays a very important role, and the brain has to be very clean, and the habit must be very clean. Otherwise these experiments...
Prabhupāda: Anartha-nirvṛttiḥ. This is called anartha-nirvṛttiḥ. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ tato bhajana-kriyā, atha anartha-nirvṛtti syāt [[CC Madhya 23.14-15]] . Ceto-darpaṇa-marjanam [[CC Madhya 23.14-15]] . Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ-stho abhadrāṇi [[CC Madhya 23.14-15]] . These are abhadrāṇi. Vidhunoti.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: You have so mercifully given us so many wonderful instructions, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If we can develop just fraction of it...
Prabhupāda: That is your deci... I can suggest fundamental principles. Now you can develop, as you have already begun. So they are accepting this scientific...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Bose Institute has developed?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are doing many kinds of research on life. They're specializing on life sciences. But they have also been taken away by the Western ideas, I gather. So first of all, when I went... Actually there is a professor called Professor Bakat(?) in science college. He was my former teacher. So he took me along. So it makes things very easy because he knew all of them, and he had great appreciation for us, like a father. He's a professor, full-time professor, and he knew all these friends, big, big scientists there. First of all, Professor Bakat introduced me, "He's from the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. He's former student, but now fully engaged in scientific Kṛṣṇa consciousness." So they thought it is some sort of religion. Then... "No, no, he's not speaking about religion. He's speaking about the science of life and about the fundamental principles of life and matter and its origin." Then they changed their little outlook.
Prabhupāda: Then they changed?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Then they became little... They opened up their mouth and then started talking. Then, once they start talking, then we can generate some platform where we can actually discuss. This Amrtabhal Sena is a professor in Bose Institute. Firstof all he asked my qualifications, said what, what do I have. Then I said I studied in the States, and I had this degree, and I was working this line. Actually I told him all the sophisticated experiments that we did when I was studying. And he was very impressed with those ideas or experiments that I did which they don't do here. Then he asked me... First of all he was interested "How you became... How you left those things and become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa?" Then I... At that point I got the opportunity to explain how science is an attempt to see the unknown laws of nature, in other words to find at least the ultimate cause or the Absolute Truth. Vaguely it's an attempt at least amongst those highly thoughtful scientists. They think like that. But we are seeing at this stage of our scientific age that science is not giving those answers. Rather, science is failing. We thought we would do like this, that, and so many experiments and so much knowledge we uncovered, but we do not know anything about life, so there are limitations of this scientific knowledge. So there must be something higher. It cannot be the finishing stage at this moment. So there must be something higher. It cannot be the finishing stage at this moment. So there must be something higher beyond what we know so far. That is why I was interested in knowing more about the principles of life. It cannot be just coming momentarily for some time and staying and getting a family and getting some false prestige. That cannot be the ultimate. There must be something higher. Then he began to understood what I meant and he accepted, "Yes, it's true." That he agreed, "Yes, we are not... The knowledge that we have is not able to give all the answers. In fact, science doesn't know anything about life. But we are leaving this most important knowledge of life and just studying something garbage in the name of scientific knowledge."
Prabhupāda: (laughs) You have fatally...(?)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So he became very interested. That's why he took me in an hour. About five minutes he gave me. Then he extended about an hour to a very interesting talk. And he became very impressed with the ideas about Bhagavad-gītā. And Dr. Kunja(?) asked me, "What śloka are you using from Bhagavad-gītā ?" Then I was describing about nainaṁ chindanti śāstrāṇi nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ [[BG 2.23]] . "We're developing that on a scientific language." And he was very impressed with our presentation for the nature of consciousness and quantum physics. So they thought that this is very unique, and they never thought that this could be done. They have great respect for Śrīla Prabhupāda also. Said that they have read Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. And they actually accepted and developed lot of scientific thoughts, appropriating with our current scientific frame from Bhagavad-gītā. So once they have that feeling developed properly...
Prabhupāda: It will further develop.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. It's unlimited, scientific knowledge. It's all Śrīla Prabhupāda's mercy that all these people are getting at least a second thought, being born in this material, just been carried away by some sort of temporary knowledge without really knowing what real knowledge is behind. Now, by Prabhupāda's mercy, they have been given the opportunity also to think about it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You are proper person to understand what is pervading(?). Monkey cannot understand what is pervading(?). (Bengali) Just like mother Sītā. When Hanumān approached, she gave her pearl necklace. He immediately remove it. So one who knows pearl and one does not know pearl. Anyway, it is all Kṛṣṇa's desire that you are combined together. So it is my duty to show you, "Here is the pearl." Now, to the few, value of pearl will be appreciated. All theories, bogus, vyapa, garbage(?)... At least you have got now basic principles to talk with high-grade scientists. Hm?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But I dared to approach them because I am confident that what I am presenting, it is solid. There is no mistake. It is solid. I never said, "May be, may not be." No. Life cannot come from matter. Never. And the knowledge distribution takes some time. They have distributed ignorance by taking time. We have to distribute knowledge by taking time. False knowledge... Simply promise, future hope... Durāśayā. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [[SB 7.5.30]] . Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum durāśayā bahir-artha-māninaḥ, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānā... [[SB 7.5.30]]. The society remains in darkness, misled by blind men. We want to save the human society from this catastrophe. This is our noble mission. Why they should remain in darkness? Karmīs, jñānīs, yogis.... That should be. Just like some professor in Bangalore, they are trying to expose this Sai Baba. Why? Because they are scientific men, they are protesting, "Why this rascal should keep so many men in darkness? The same rascal. By false propaganda he is appearing mukta, God. What about Sai Baba? We don't see anything.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No new news about him. Same tricks. He does the same tricks.
Prabhupāda: He is half finished.
Satadhanya: He's a juggler, magician.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Balesvara Yogi is also almost finished.
Prabhupāda: Almost.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nobody takes seriously now. I saw an article just a few weeks ago about Balesvara Yogi, how he is, you know, he has not been accepted. Rather, it's increasing that many believe him that he's just fake.
Prabhupāda: He's bogus.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Hrishikesh, when he saw how strongly you were preaching, especially to his, you know, his student teachers, he sent a message that "As you are not feeling well, you should take complete rest." He was a little worried. Prabhupāda was preaching so strongly in Hrishikesh, and he was there also.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, Maharishi?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Hm. He wanted to invite me. I refused, "I cannot..."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then he sent a message that "You should take complete rest and not do any preaching."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Recently I saw a book in Boston. It was from England, that book. The title was called The Origin of Johnny. Johnny's the name of a little boy.
Prabhupāda: Johnny Walker. (laughter)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And it was very interesting, that book. That was... This is the Origin of Species. That was Darwin's book. This was the modern version of Darwin's book. It's about this big, and it's full of nice colors with all molecules, DNA and all these nice, modern-looking molecules, and then they say... They start... It starts like this, "In the beginning there was a big blank." (Prabhupāda laughs)
Prabhupāda: "There was..."?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: "There was a blank. There was a void." Everything was blank. And the way he started, the foreword was given by a scientist called Crick, Watson and Crick. Crick is in Cambridge, and Watson is in Harvard. So these two men were the men who discovered the structure of the DNA molecule that they thought that may be life. And they got Nobel Prize for this. And Crick was writing in the first page, saying that "This is the way we have understood about life." But "Everything was started like that, from blank and a blank, blank. And somehow all these molecules get together and then it became Johnny later on." (laughter) And we can make a nice story out of it.
Prabhupāda: No.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They make such a story that sometime they make the little children believe and thought that it might be the fact.
Prabhupāda: Fairy tales.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, so we titled, called, Chemical Evolution-A Molecular Fairy Tale.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And we have developed...
Prabhupāda: (laughs) That is very nice.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And we also have a little chapter called "Intellectual Dishonesty Among the Scientists," and said, "Let's be honest about it. These things are not scientific."
Prabhupāda: This is intellectual dishonesty. They produce sputnik and going to the moon in the laboratory.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And then it is exposed, "Moon Hoax." This is intellect... There was a... There were many films. One film was... What is that? A big monkey?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: King Kong.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) King Kong. They are producing chemical laboratory, yes, studio, and the monkey played...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they showed him going up and down the Empire State Building in a movie.
Prabhupāda: And it was so interesting, it gathered so many public to see.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have another one, "King Kong Returns." Still it's very popular.
Prabhupāda: So they can do these things.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They made another one where they go into the human body. They make the man very small, and then they send him on a trip through the human body, and he's fighting with germs. He gets attacked by germs, and the whole thing is very believable.
Prabhupāda: That Frankenstein?
Devotees: Frankenstein.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We gave a lecture in Gainesville, Florida. It was last year. So Amarendra made a nice poster about our lecture. I don't exactly remember, "Frankenstein or Einstein," describing a little about our talk, that life cannot come from matter. And he made a nice poster all over the campuses.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many people came?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, some came in the temple. We also gave university, in the physics class, called "Physics for Skeptics," the title of the class. It was very interesting.
Prabhupāda: Now it is clearing. You can go inside.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Jaya. [break]
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One basement is there where the restaurant is. You saw that. And kitchen. Then, below that, I was going to take you to the boiler room, but you didn't want to come. That's another basement, sub-basement. That boiler... (end)
His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
770620R1-VRNDAVAN - June 20, 1977 - 14:26 Minutes
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . Calcutta yesterday all day. I was stranded for several hours.
Prabhupāda: So this can be given to the Deities, these flowers.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're very nice. Are they scented?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some scent. We have another one. It has 108 petals exactly. It's white when full bloomed. Just started, this monsoon. The full season will come sometime in August, August and September. Lotus are everywhere, these flowers, on either side of the road, and all lakes full of lotuses.
Prabhupāda: Pineapple. Your country is famous for pineapple.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Pineapple is very sweet. This is another season, but in about three weeks the larger variety will come. This is a little smaller type. The bigger ones, big. And it is green outside, but it's very sweet, full of juice. The hillsides all covered with pineapples, and it's very cheap.
Prabhupāda: So Calcutta, there was rain.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. The farming is very good this time in our side, Bengal and in Assam and in Manipur. So much rain from the south. And I saw from the plane that everything is already green.
Prabhupāda: (aside) Why you are bringing? Is it necessary? (break)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But he doesn't want to speak.
Prabhupāda: You have asked him already?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, I said: "We are coming in September," so he's . . . we'll be giving lectures there. And the Atishah personally told me that he never thought these ideas before. He said this is the first time that he's seeing such things, that science can be utilized in understanding the nature of the self or life from Bhagavad-gītā. Then I also went to Bose Institute. I wanted to talk with the dir . . .
Prabhupāda: Oh, Bose Institute.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. The director wasn't there, but there was very leading professor. His name was Amrtabal Singh. He's the . . . just next to the . . .
Prabhupāda: Woman? Woman?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, no, Amrtabal Singh is the name. And he told me he didn't have time to talk with me because, he said, he had a meeting. So then I just told him that I just came to see the director, but since the director is not there I just want to let him know that, "We want to hold a conference on life sciences and Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so if you are interested, I'd like to invite you because you're a leading scientist. And the Bose Institute is quite well known. So I'd like you to participate in our conference." Then he asked me, "What is that conference?" Then I started describing about the way modern science is going at this time. "Science says that everything is molecules. So what do you think as a scientist? Now, the way we communicate . . . I talk with you, and you talk to me, but the way we communicate, science say that these are just chemical reactions. You talk because of some chemical reactions. And so what do you think about this modern philosophy?" Then I started talking about the very unsatisfactory explanations of these ideas according to modern science and trying to introduce concept of Bhagavad-gītā that, "Life is nonchemical and nonphysical. It is spiritual. When we study physics, chemistry and mathematics, we simply study matter, but actually we don't really study life. But modern science says that life is nothing but chemicals. So we are determined to show to the people, especially to the leading scientists, that the knowledge that we have is all wrong. There must be something beyond that we just know so far." Then he started taking great interest, and I talked with him for a little more than an hour. He . . . and even he was thinking of postponing that . . . he had a meeting, and he telephoned. He said . . . he started discussing with me, and the talk became so interesting that he postponed the meeting. He even said. (laughs) So he was very nice, actually. He said that he agrees that in the Western . . . especially in the United States, the leading scientists are taking too much for granted. They're saying too much, very unscientific, saying that life started from molecules. He said it's all unknown. These are all stories. So he said that it's a little too much. Science doesn't know these things. He agreed to that point very clearly. I said: "Do you think scientists like . . .? It is your responsibility, especially from this land, to show that the concept . . ."
Prabhupāda: We know.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. And he actually was very interested, and he told me to write about Mandeha, the director, so that they can make arrangements and so we can speak. So I just had these few hours, and I wanted to go to the Indian school for experimental medicine that is in Jadavpur. I know the director. The director is from Calcutta University, and I just about to see him, but I couldn't see him. I didn't have the time. So . . . but we have, I think, plenty of scope, doing these things on a wider scale.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And I also published this little concept about what these, all these lectures is about. So it says: "Announcing a worldwide lecture tour on the origin of life and matter, sponsored by Bhaktivedanta Institute for Higher Studies, Founder-Ācārya His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda." And then I gave a whole series from here to here, and I also gave the topics and . . .
Prabhupāda: Very nice.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So like to hear a little bit?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Said: "Bhaktivedanta Institute is a center for advanced studies in the research into the Vedic scientific knowledge concerning the nature of consciousness and the self. This institute is the academic division of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness and consists of a body of scientists and scholars who have recognized the unique . . . (indistinct) . . . of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda's teachings who brought Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the West. The main purpose of the Institute is to explore the implications of the Vedic knowledge as it appears in all features of main culture, and to present these findings in courses, lectures, and audio-visual aides, monographs, books and a quarterly journal, Sa-vijñānam, etc."
"The Institute presents most specifically modern science and other fields of knowledge in light of the Vaiṣṇava philosophy and tradition, providing a completely new perspective on the reality, quite different from that of modern educational systems. One reason for the increasing interest of the Western and the young intellectuals in Śrīla Prabhupāda's teachings is doubtlessly the growing awareness that in spite of their scientific and technological advancements, the real goal of human life has somehow been missed. The philosophy of the Bhaktivedanta Institute begins from a totally different premise from that of modern science. The central doctrine of modern science is that all phenomena, including those of life and consciousness, can be fully explained and understood by the . . . (indistinct) . . . of matter alone. The dictum that life is a manifestation of matter is indeed the ultimate rationale for the entire civilization of material aggrandizement. The Vedas, on the other hand, teach that conscious life is original, fundamental and eternal. This in fact is the essence of Bhagavad-gītā: ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (10.8). On this fundamental and critical point, modern science and the Vedic knowledge find themselves opposed."
"The Bhaktivedanta Institute has therefore begun a worldwide lecture tour in order to bring this most fundamental knowledge to every continent. This Institute is clearly demonstrating that the Vedic version is not a matter simply of faith or belief but is scientific in the strict sense of the term. Although many of its features may appear difficult to verify experimentally, others have direct implications concerning what one may expect to observe, as this viewpoint will show as a stimulating challenge to the truly scientific state, to whom we owe the very restricted framework imposed upon our scientific understanding of nature for the past 200 years. Modern science started as an experiment to see how far matter could be explained without invoking God. The Bhaktivedanta Institute has come forward to introduce Vedic knowledge on a genuinely scientific basis for the first time in the history of this modern scientific age. The lecture series in the Indian subcontinent will start from September 1977 and last until February 1978. We request the scientists, scholars and students to kindly participate in this most challenging educational program, which will open up wide fields for fertile thought and meaningful study."
"Some of the topics are listed as follows: 1. What is life and what is matter? 2. Quantum theory and the laws of consciousness. 3. New scientific paradigm . . . (indistinct) . . . beyond the laws of nature 4. Demonstration by information theory and computer science that life cannot arise from matter. 5. Chemical evolution—a molecular fairytale. 6. Genetic engineering and biomedical ethics. 7. Philosophy and psychology of science. 8. Paramātmā and the process of acquiring knowledge. 9. Scientific message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. 10. The origin of life and matter. "
"For further information, please contact Western headquarter, United States; Eastern headquarter, Bombay; and spiritual headquarter, Vṛndāvana." (laughter)
Prabhupāda: (laughs) All glories to Svarūpa Dāmodara.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. And I already got some very positive remarks, especially in Manipur. They invited us . . . there is a center called Bhaktambabu Research Center in Manipur, so they invited for a speaking engagement. They wanted to get it in printed form so that they also publish in the university. There is a Jawaharlal University in Manipur, and there is also law college. In several college they already invited.
Prabhupāda: So the Bose Institute of Research, they have invited you?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Did you not mention . . .?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh . . . this was . . . yeah, I haven't mentioned it yet.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did this article come out after?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, this article came after. I could have mentioned, but it was just for general remark.
Prabhupāda: So let them issue later on, and you can make.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sometime we are preparing, called, a brochure for this lecture series. We'll make it color. So I already have the outline in Boston. So we're titling, "Announcing a Worldwide Lecture Series on the Origin of Life in the Matter, sponsored by Bhaktivedanta Institute for Higher Studies and Founder-Ācārya His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda." And we have some colored pictures inside and a little, also, synopsis of the theme, the topics. We say: "Chemical Evolution—A Molecular Fairy Tale," and we have about three or four lines describing what the lecture should be about and what is the main theme of the talk. And we also have photographs of four or five of us who are going to speak and a little background of the candidate. So we wanted to make it very official.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And also making it nice-looking.
Prabhupāda: And print very well.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So that will be useful for making engagements. That we will do before we come here. And it's already outlined.
Prabhupāda: Very nice. So money is ready there?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, money is ready there. Svarūpa Dāmodara hasn't heard yet about Ambarīṣa's offer.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I haven't heard about this.
Prabhupāda: For starting our museum.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Washington?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So Ambarīṣa is buying . . .
Prabhupāda: He is prepared to pay us about two hundred . . .
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Thousand.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Jaya. That's wonderful. In Washington it will be very nice, the center of the world.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we'll all save our Bhaktivedanta . . .
Prabhupāda: Three? Three hundred million?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said . . . he has thirty million dollars.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think that will be very attractive, and it will open up wide cultural aspects of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And we will also have our institute in Washington, D.C . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is money, there is intelligence and . . . that's all. I can give you one . . . (indistinct) . . . you have taken your lunch now?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, we'll take prasādam.
Prabhupāda: Dao prasad, dao.(Okay, give me prasādam.)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: You look better, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
