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690917 - Lecture SB 05.05.02 - London

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

690917SB-LONDON - September 17, 1969 - 56:48 Minutes


. . . mahāntas te sama-cittāḥ praśāntā
vimanyavaḥ suhṛdaḥ sādhavo ye
(SB 5.5.2)

The last meeting we have been discussing about the path of salvation. There are two paths. One path is to salvation. Salvation means liberation from this material bondage. People do not understand what is material bondage, but those who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are educated what is bondage and what is liberation.

A spirit soul, being part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, he is by nature very powerful. We do not know how much spiritual power we have got, but that is being suppressed by the material covering. Just like this fire. This fire, if there are too many ashes, the heat of the fire is not properly felt. But you move the ashes and just fan it, and when it is blazing, then you get the proper heat and you can utilize it for so many purposes.

Similarly, we, as spirit soul, we have immense power. And God is the supreme spirit soul, so we cannot imagine how much power God has got. But even we, who are a simply minute particle . . . just like . . . comparison is just like the fire and the sparks. The fire and the sparks, both of them are fire. The spark even, wherever the spark will fall, immediately it will burn.

Similarly, we have got all the qualities in minute quantity of God. God has the creative force; therefore we are also creating so many things. The scientists, they are creating so many wonderful things. That is wonderful for persons like us, because we do not know how much wonderful one can play. That we do not know. We simply . . .

Just like we are giving very much credit to the person who is going to the moon planet by some machine: "Oh, wonderful." But we do not see that who has created these planets, and they are floating in the air. And not only one planet—millions of planets, trillions of planets, each planet having different atmosphere, temperature, population, so many things, varieties.

In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated:

yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-
koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam
(Bs. 5.40)

Koṭiṣu vasudhādi. In each brahmāṇḍa, in each universe, there are innumerable universes. This universe in which we are living, that is only one. And how it is one? Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given information, it is just like one mustard seed in the bag of mustard seed.

If you take a bag of mustard seed, you can imagine how many . . . you cannot count how many there are, mustard seed. Out of that, one mustard seed, if you take . . . similarly, there are so many universes that you cannot count. Out of so many universes, this is one universe. And this one universe also containing so many planets. Koṭiṣu vasudhādi, vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam. Vasudhā means planets. So they are of different qualities, vibhūti-bhinnam. Just like the sun planet is very hot, the moon planet is very cold. Similarly, other planets, they are watery, airy—variety. Just like even on this planet we have got varieties of climate.

So we should know how much creative force God has, wonderful. So out of that wonderful creative force, we living entities, we have got a little particle, and therefore we can manufacture these wonderful machines, and we are struck with wonder, "Oh, we have done so great thing." No. We should try to understand still further, still further.

So the Śrīmad-Bhāgavata says that if you want to be free . . . free means just like you are trying to go to the moon planet by so many mechanical arrangements, but if you are free spiritually, then you can go any planet you like, immediately. The yogīs, those who are perfect yogīs—not these nonsense yogīs—those who are perfect yogīs, they can go at their will any planet they like. That is yogic perfection. When a yogī becomes perfect, he dies . . . he does not die. "Die," this word is not actually applicable.

When he leaves this body . . . actually, nobody will die. We simply quit this body and accept another body. We are forced by the laws of nature according to karma. By practice of yoga system we can avoid the forcible nature's law, but we can leave this body according to our sweet will, not being forced by the nature's law. Just like Bhīṣmadeva. Bhīṣmadeva, he knew this yoga practice. Therefore he was not to be killed. Unless he desired to die, nobody could kill him.

So yogīs . . . still there are many yogīs in India, they are living for seven hundred years, or three hundred years, four hundred years. They consider not yet perfect. Not yet perfect. They are trying to make perfection of the yoga practice, and they look like young men, say, twenty-five years, thirty years old. But they are seven hundred years old, three hundred years old. There are still yogīs. They are yogīs. They have practiced yoga. Still they consider they are not perfect. The perfection will be when a yogī at his sweet will can leave this body and can go any planet he likes. Not only within this material universe, but also even, if he likes, he can go to the spiritual planet also. That is yoga.

Just like Durvāsā Muni. Durvāsā Muni traveled within this universe and beyond this universe within one year. That is statement is there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. There was a misunderstanding between him and a devotee, Mahārāja Ambarīṣa. So for that reason he had to travel. He was attacked, and out of the fear of his life he had to travel from . . . to go from one planet to another, one planet to another to save his life. Ultimately, he had to go to the Viṣṇu planet. He was so powerful. And it is said that this space travel covered by Durvāsā Muni took only one year. So yoga practice is so . . .

That is also a kind of freedom. We do not know what is freedom. Liberation, I am speaking on the point of liberation. But he was also not liberated, that Durvāsā Muni, although he could travel from one planet to another, another, another, even up to Viṣṇuloka. He was not liberated. He had to come back. Liberation means that you go to the spiritual realm, the spiritual sky, and you do not come back again. It is not like that, that after spending many millions of dollars you go to the moon planet and touch it and bring some sand, and you are satisfied. You see? Don't waste in that. If you go, live there. (laughter)

Just like I came to the Western country to preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, now I am living. I am not after taking some money and bluffing and go away. No. I am standing here. I am facing, "Come on," any philosopher, any scientist, any religions, "Come on and see the beauty of Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

Devotees: Haribol!

Prabhupāda: So that is going. Go in the moon planet; don't come back. (laughter) Simply by touching, "Oh, we have done tremendous." (laughter) What tremendous you have done? So that kind of freedom is not wanted. Freedom means wherever you like, you can go, you can stay, nobody can check. That is liberation. That is liberation.

So here it is said that if you want that sort of liberation, then mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ (SB 5.5.2). If you want that sort of liberation, then associate with mahātmās, great souls. And if you want to be stuck up in this material world, then you associate with persons who are addicted to sense gratification. That's all. Two processes. If you be addicted to the process of sense gratification . . . like animals; they have no other information. They are simply engaged in sense gratification: eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. That's all. Their business finished. They do not know anything else.

If I call some animals . . . why people are not taking part in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Because they are animals. They are appearing with four hands and legs, but they have been trained to become animals. So they cannot take. But we are trying to train them from animalism to humanism by associating with this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

This Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is to give chance to this animalistic civilization to associate with devotees and mahātmās so that they can also become devotee and mahātmā. You associate with mahātmā, you become mahātmā. You associate with debauch, you become debauch. Practical. We have taken from the debauchery condition all our disciples. But they are now mahātmās. It is possible. By this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we can turn debauch into mahātmā. That is possible. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is so nice.

Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings, pāpī-tāpī jata chilo hari-nāme uddhārilo, tāra sākṣī jagāi and mādhāi. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says that "Caitanya Mahāprabhu, by His saṅkīrtana movement, has delivered all kinds of fallen souls," pāpī-tāpī. Pāpī means sinful and tāpī means suffering. If you become sinful, then you must suffer. If you . . . just like if you contaminate some disease, you must suffer. Similarly, if you contaminate sinful activity, then you must suffer. Pāpī-tāpī jata chilo hari-nāme uddhārilo. They have been delivered.

So how they have been delivered? Tāra sākṣī jagāi and mādhāi. The living example is Jagāi and Mādhāi. What was the Jagāi-Mādhāi's fault that he's considered pāpī-tāpī? They were addicted to these four principles: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. They were addicted to these principles. They were born in high brahmin family, but by bad association they became drunkard number one, woman-hunters, meat-eaters and gamblers and guṇḍās, like anything. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu delivered them. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's process was that He used to send daily His devotees to go and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and preach Hare Kṛṣṇa, just like we are trying to do here. We are sending our devotees.

(aside) You are going?

Indian lady: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: All right. So you wanted to talk with me?

Indian lady: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you come little earlier or . . .

Indian lady: Yes, I stopped here long time ago, about hour and twenty minutes.

Prabhupāda: When you came here?

Indian lady: I was here a long time ago.

Prabhupāda: No, why did you not see me in my apartment?

Devotee: She arrived at seven.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you came at seven. That time I was preparing to come here. Yes. So would you like to come tomorrow?

Indian lady: It's a long journey . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Oh, then you cannot wait also just now?

Indian lady: (indistinct) . . . I can wait, but . . .

Prabhupāda: If you like you can stay here, night, with the girls. Yes.

Indian lady: (indistinct) . . . if you like to go Thursday my place.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Indian lady: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Thursday? Yes. You can arrange with them if they go. Yes. So you make arrangement.

Indian lady: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So you are staying this night here? No. You are going? All right.

So actually, Caitanya Mahāprabhu delivered such persons. Pāpī-tāpī jata chilo hari-nāme uddhārilo. So why they are called pāpī-tāpī? The pāpīs, the sinful men, they never enjoy. Just like in New York you have seen in Bowery Street, the drunkard . . . what is called?

Devotee: Alcoholics.

Prabhupāda: Alcoholic bumpers? (laughter) What do they call? What is the name?

Devotee: Bums.

Prabhupāda: Bums. Yes. The bums, just see how nasty they are. They were lying down on the street, and as soon as get some money, immediately go to the wine shop, purchase one bottle, and not eating nicely, no dress, nothing of the . . . many of them. The Bowery Street is famous for that purpose. So they are not happy, but they are thinking they are happy. This is māyā. (laughter) This is māyā.

The materialistic persons, by engaging themselves in sinful activities, they are not happy, but they are thinking that, "We are happy." In this European portion of the world, they are . . . we have experienced two big wars, and still, the war cloud is always there. Not only here; everywhere. So this materialistic civilization, actually people are not very happy.

And as I have told you that people are going to live underground next hundred years. That means they'll lose this freedom of living in the free air for fear of this atomic attack. That is predicted in the World Almanac. You have seen, that people are going to live under. They'll . . . sometimes they will come out to have fresh air in the surface. Otherwise, they will have to live underground.

So actually we are, by advancing this materialistic way of life, for the time being we may feel happy, but we do not know how much risk we are taking in our life. That science is not yet discussed. That science is described in the Bhagavad-gītā that if you hear also—we have begun—that this life is not meant for simply sense gratification with hard labor. No. This life is meant for restraining. Restraining. Tapa. We have to restrain our business of sense gratification. Without restraining our business of sense gratification, it is not possible to make ourselves liberated. That is not possible. This is entanglement.

Sat-saṅga chāḍi' kainu asate vilās. If people give up the association of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness society and they simply indulge in the sense-gratificatory process, then more and more they'll be entangled.

sat-saṅga chāḍi' kainu asate vilās
te-kāraṇe lāgila ye karma-bandha-phāṅs
(from Prārthanā)

People are now entangled in hard working. Actually, human life should be very easy, very easy—no hard work; living very simple life and eating very healthy food; living in open space; no quarrel, no antagonism; everyone is happy, everyone is free. That is human civilization. Not to become entangled. But at the present moment we have become entangled. So Ṛṣabhadeva says that mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ (SB 5.5.2). If we actually want liberation from this entanglement, then we should associate with mahātmās, great souls. And who is a great soul? That is being described.

We have discussed some of the symptoms of great soul. The great soul is sama-citta, equal to everyone. Great soul is never angry; they are friend to everyone. And sādhava. Sādhava means sadācāra, clean habits. A mahātmā cannot be implicated with those four principles of sinful life. That is the first test. No illicit sex life, no gambling, no meat-eating and no intoxication. This is called sadācāra, clean habit. Anything beyond this: unclean habit. So here it is stated, sādhava. Sādhava means sadācāra, clean habit.

Then it is said, ye vā mayīśe kṛta-sauhṛdārthāḥ. Now this mahātmā is specifically indicated for a sannyāsa, a perfect sannyāsī, renounced order. Their characteristics is that. And another mahātmā . . . suppose one is in household life. Question may be whether a mahātmā can be in the household life or not. That is being described: Yes. In household life also there can be mahātmā.

Just like Advaita Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu even; Nityānanda Mahāprabhu. They were all householders. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was a householder. He married twice. His first wife died—He married for the second time. Regular householder, although He left household life very early. He was only twenty-four years old, therefore He had no children. But Nityānanda Prabhu had one child, Vīrabhadra, and Advaita Prabhu had two, three children, of which Acyutānanda was very highly elevated. Similarly, Śrīvāsa Ṭhākura, he had children.

So Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not say that one has to become in the renounced order, of sannyāsī, then he becomes a mahātmā. No. We also do not propagate such idea. At least, I am not doing that. I am creating householder, ideal householder. And my ideas are being fruitful. Here in London I sent six householders, and they are doing nice; sincerely they are working. Therefore I am very much proud of them.

So here is also the statement that even . . . it's not required that a sannyāsī is only mahātmā, but a gṛhastha can be . . . is also mahātmā. So gṛhastha-mahātmā, his symptoms are described: ye vā mayīśe kṛta-sauhṛdārthāḥ. Their only business is to please Kṛṣṇa. That is the first qualification. They have no other business. Ye vā mayīśe kṛta-sauhṛdārthāḥ. Then how they deal with others? A gṛhastha has to live . . . a sannyāsī may live alone in forest or in Himalaya or in a secluded place in Vṛndāvana or somewhere, but a gṛhastha, he has to deal with ordinary persons, so many others, businessmen or ordinary people.

So that is stated here, that a gṛhastha-mahātmā, his first symptom is that he has no other business than to please Kṛṣṇa. That is his first business. And so far dealing with others, that is:

janeṣu dehambhara-vārtikeṣu
gṛheṣu jāyātmaja-rātimatsu
na prīti-yuktā yāvad-arthāś ca loke
(SB 5.5.3)

Very nice. What does he say? That people who are simply interested in maintaining this body and sense gratification, dehambhara-vārtikeṣu. Deha means this body, and bhara means maintaining, and vārtika means occupation.

Now you analyze everyone in this world. What is their business? Their business is how to maintain this body. That's all. If you ask somebody, "My dear sir, what you are doing?" "Oh, I am doing this business." "Why you are doing this business?" "Oh, I must get money. Otherwise, how can I maintain myself?" This is called dehambhara-vārtikeṣu. Their only engagement is how to maintain this body. This is their business. So janeṣu dehambhara-vārtikeṣu.

And gṛheṣu, a householder has got home. And jāyā, jāyā means wife. Ātmaja, ātmaja means children. Rāti, some money, bank balance or some wealth, rāti. Or persons who are engaged simply for the business of maintaining this body, their only business is how to maintain a home, how to maintain a wife, how to maintain children, how to have good bank balance. In this way their life is like that. But a householder who is mahātmā, whose only business is to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, for him, these things are not prīti-yuktāḥ, not very pleasing. Not very pleasing. Na prīti-yuktāḥ.

Then what is their dealing? Yāvad-arthāś ca loke. They deal as much as required only. That's all. I have to deal with some gentlemen who is completely out of our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, but I have to deal with him. Then how I have to deal? As much as possible to avoid him, but so far the business is concerned, all right. This is all. Just like a businessman talks with another businessman so far profit is concerned. That's all. No more talking.

A businessman, a lawyer, talks with his client so much . . . especially in America, they cannot waste their time. Any businessman will not waste their time. They will talk. Similarly, a householder devotee whose only business is to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, they will deal with other persons . . . other person means those who are simply interested for maintaining this body, wife, children, in this way—they have no other ideas. We should not have any very intimate relationship, but we shall have to deal with them, we deal with them only as far necessary. No more. That's all. We shall try to avoid them as far as possible. But because we are living with the human society we have to deal with such persons.

So our dealings should be so far as required. Not more than that. Then, if one lives a household life in this way, keeping his viewpoint only in Kṛṣṇa, in the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, and other dealings superfluous, he is also mahātmā. He's also mahātmā. Na prīti-yuktā yāvad-arthāś ca loke.

Mayi īśe kṛta-sauhṛdārthāḥ puruṣārtha yeṣām. A householder mahātmā has only one aim, how to attain the perfectional stage of love of God. That is the aim. Generally, a householder in the modern civilization, they are simply trying to accumulate money, increase the bank balance and make the society, friendship and love as the aim and object of life, and they have no other business. But a person who is mahātmā, his aim is different. His aim is "How to make my life perfect in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. How to please Kṛṣṇa, how to make friendship with Kṛṣṇa."

Everyone is seeking some friend. That is a fact. The businessmen or lawyer or politician, everyone is seeking some friend. Without friend . . . society, friendship and love, these things are required. But a mahātmā householder, he is seeking actual friendship with Kṛṣṇa. Īśe sauhṛdārthāḥ. Because he knows, "If Kṛṣṇa is my friend . . ." Just like Arjuna sought friendship with Kṛṣṇa; Duryodhana sought friendship with Kṛṣṇa's power. Kṛṣṇa divided Himself.

Because it was family warfare between two cousin brothers, and Kṛṣṇa was also related with both of them by family relationship, so He said: "How can I take part with one and not with the other? Then that will be partiality. So anyway, I divide Myself into two. I am alone, one side, and in which side I shall go, I shall not fight. I shall not touch even a weapon. And the other side, all My soldiers." Kṛṣṇa had many soldiers. So Duryodhana thought that, "I shall take Kṛṣṇa's soldiers," and Arjuna thought, "I shall take Kṛṣṇa only, even He does not fight." So this is the determination of mahātmās, that they want simply Kṛṣṇa's friendship. Mayi sauhṛdārthāḥ.

ye vā mayīśe kṛta-sauhṛdārthā
janeṣu dehambhara-vārtikeṣu
gṛheṣu jāyātmaja-rātimatsu
na prīti-yuktā yāvad-arthāś ca loke
(SB 5.5.3)

Yāvad-arthāś ca loke, just to deal with other persons as much as necessary, not more than that. But to keep friendship with devotees, that is necessary. Not that I shall not intimately mix, intermingle with the devotees. That is required.

A devotee has got four business: īśvare prīti, love for God, Kṛṣṇa; friendship with devotees; and kindness to the neophytes; and rejection to the non-devotees. These four principles. A devotee's only lovable object is Kṛṣṇa. His only friend is devotee, another devotee.

īśvare tad-adhīneṣu
bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca
yaḥ karoti sa madhyamaḥ
(SB 11.2.46)

Iśvare means kṛṣṇa-prema, love, to love Kṛṣṇa. Maitrī means friendship. Maitrī with whom? Tad-adhīneṣu, those who are under the control of Kṛṣṇa. Everyone is under the control of Kṛṣṇa by this way or that way, but those who are given to Kṛṣṇa voluntarily, surrendered soul, I am speaking of them. Tad-adhīneṣu.

Everyone is . . . just like any citizen in the state are under the control of the state, rules and regulation. But some of them, they say, "I don't care for the government." So they are forced to obey the government laws in the prison house. And the free citizens means who are voluntarily abiding by the laws of the state. Similarly, any living entity is under the laws of God. There is no doubt about it. But those who are voluntarily accepting the laws of God and giving service to the Supreme Lord, they are called devotees. And those who have revolted, and being forced by māyā to abide by the laws of God, they are called non-devotees. This is the difference between devotees and non-devotees.

But both the devotees and non-devotees, they must obey the laws of Kṛṣṇa. There is no exception. There is no exception. This is māyā. He is being forced, the non-devotee is being forced to act. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). He's under the spell of the modes of material nature, and he's being forced to act under the spell of material nature, but he is thinking, "I am free. I don't care for God." This is called māyā. He is being kicked by māyā, but he'll not agree to abide by the orders of Kṛṣṇa. He'll agree to be kicked by māyā. That is his business. That he will agree: "Yes, let me be kicked by māyā."

So nobody is free. By constitutional position nobody is free from the laws of God. But those who are voluntarily accepting, they are devotees. And those who are not accepting, falsely declaring themselves independent, they are non-devotees. This is the difference.

Any question? (devotees offer obeisances)

Uttamaśloka, you were not here? I did not see you.

Uttamaśloka: I was in town, kind of urgent . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. So, any question on these topics? Question means on the topics, not other, outside.

Śyāmasundara: What is gambling?

Prabhupāda: Gambling you do not know? (laughter) You never played gambling?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They why do you . . .?

Śyāmasundara: Only the game?

Prabhupāda: Yes, gambling means betting. That is gambling. People are betting. You put one dollar, and if you gain, you get ten dollars. Otherwise, you lose this one dollar. This is gambling. They're gambling in Christian churches also, in the Western countries. But gambling is considered sinful activity. I do not know . . . one Mr. Bhattacarya, a barrister, he was educated in England. So he told there is some island, Monte Christo, here? There is gambling?

Devotee: Monte Carlo.

Prabhupāda: Monte Carlo, yes. He said that there are gamblers, and one gambler loses everything, he commits suicide immediately, and he'll go. That's all. Nobody cares for him. He told me. It is a fact?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So just see the gambling. They bring all their fortunes to stake, and they lose everything. And then, out of frustration, takes revolver and shots himself, dies, and it is thrown on the street or in somewhere. Nobody cares. Just like cats and dogs. So there is free gambling, Monte Carlo?

Devotee: Very, very wealthy people, they . . . (indistinct) . . . there.

Devotee lady: There is free gambling in London.

Prabhupāda: Oh, everywhere. Any big city. In Calcutta, Bombay, everyone gambling. When you get money, then gambling. The horse race is also gambling. Horse race. This gambling, drinking, meat-eating, these things were all unknown in India. They did not know how to drink. These Britishers introduced.

There is still a lane, a street, Porterly Street. There was a woman of suspicious character. She was supplied big bottles of wine, and she used to canvass rich men's son to take wine, and it was distributed free. In this way wine was distributed, and people began to drink, gradually. And I have seen a tea set committee. They . . . advertising tea, preparing tea nicely, "You take this tea, you'll not feel hungry, you'll be cured from malaria . . ." and so many things. And people come and take tea in this way. Now any man is taking tea. In the morning they'll gather in the tea stall. You see?

So people, they did not know what is gambling, what is drinking, what is meat-eating. So these things were introduced gradually. Still, no rigid Hindu house will allow meat cooking in the house. Still. No. If you want to . . . if you want to eat meat, you can go to hotel, but at home they cannot cook, meat-eating. Yes

Yamunā: Guru Mahārāja, in our missionary work, if we're forced to live with . . . (indistinct) . . . should we just talk about that same topic, or should we avoid the people at all?

Prabhupāda: No. If we can find out a suitable place; but it is difficult nowadays. That we have to tolerate. What can be done? Let others do whatever they like. We can preach that "Do not do it," but you cannot force, because the whole world has gone in these four principles of life, this eating . . . meat-eating, drinking, gambling. And so our regulation is very strict. (laughs) You see?

Yamunā: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: If we say that, "You do whatever you like," then many people may come and join. (laughter) But we are not going to say that. We . . . our principle is that better not to have any cow than to have a cow, disturbing. You see? Ekaś candras tamo hanti (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). If one person can understand this Kṛṣṇa consciousness science, in future there is hope that he can make many other persons to this knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, although it is very difficult.

In Bhagavad-gītā it is said, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3). But if you can deliver even one man in your life, then you'll be doing a great service for Kṛṣṇa. It is not required that you have to deliver hundreds and hundreds men, so-called. No. If you can train only one man, that's a great service to Kṛṣṇa: you saved one man from the clutches of māyā. It is so nice thing.

So do it peacefully, and as far as possible. People may accept or not accept, but we shall do our duty. That's all. But why they will not accept? You have accepted it. You were also addicted to these habits, but you have accepted. Similarly, others may accept. We have to do it.

Yes, what is your question?

Devotee: Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) . . . non-devotees. So far myself, I got into a situation where I have to . . . where I work . . . where there are many people who are not devotees, but they are demons . . . (indistinct) . . . the minute they wouldn't listen, or I was being sucked in by māyā. I would try to leave . . . (indistinct) . . . because they would hear and chant. And then they . . . (indistinct) . . . anymore. I would try to leave But sometimes I thought that it is necessary to go out and . . .

Prabhupāda: Well, preaching work should be done in company. You . . . alone you cannot make preaching work. It is not possible. You haven't got so much strength that alone you can do. Therefore, whenever we send our preaching party, they go in company, in combination: six, seven, eight . . . at least two. That is the process. And so far mixing with other people, that I have already explained just now, that to talk with a person is not mixing. You see? Mixing means, intimate mixing, there are six symptoms.

When you eat, when you call him to eat, when you give, when you take, when you talk your heart, when you hear his heart, these are called intimate mixing. Otherwise, simply talking or dealing, that is not mixing. That is not mixing. So you can mix with ordinary people in that way. As far as your business is concerned, as it is necessity, but not intimately. And do your own business, chanting, and following the rules and regulations. That's all. It is simple thing.

Just like doctors: they also mix with infected person, but they do not become infected. You see? So preaching is like that. Unless you preach among the fallen souls, then where is the question of preaching? So you should not become fallen. (laughs) You should deliver the fallen. That should be your strength. But if you are less powerful, then you will become fallen. So your power is . . . your strength is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, strong Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then you will be powerful. You'll not fall. So we should be careful.

All right. So little chanting? (devotees offer obeisances) Mukunda has not come back? Why he is so late? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Nobody has come back from London? You are coming from the temple, Uttamaśloka?

Uttamaśloka: No . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: You are coming from the temple, Jim?

Jim: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Oh, you are living here. All right. (break) (end)