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720913 - Conversation with Bajaj and Bhusan - Arlington

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

720913R1-ARL - September 13, 1972

Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is,

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā
svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya
saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam
(SB 1.2.13)

You may be industrial administrator, you may be engineer, you may be something else, but you make your profession perfect. And that perfection is achieved by satisfying the Supreme Personality of Godhead by your profession. Just like Arjuna: He was a soldier. He knew how to fight. So by his profession he satisfied Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wanted that there should be fight between the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas for right cause. And Kṛṣṇa came—paritrāṇāya sādhunaṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtam (BG 4.8). He had two business: to give protection to the devotees and to kill the demons. So by Kṛṣṇa's will sometimes all the demons, they come together and fight with one another and they are killed.

So Battle of Kurukṣetra was such a plan to bring all the demons together and engage them in fighting and kill one another. Just like in our schooldays, unruly boys, one boy will be asked to catch the other boy by the ear and the same boy will be asked to catch this boy by the ear, and they are pulling each other—competition of pulling the ears. So Arjuna was fighter, and he helped Kṛṣṇa in this fighting activities, and thus he became a great devotee. Kṛṣṇa certified, bhakto 'si priyo 'si (BG 4.3): "You are My dear, very dear friend and devotee."

So it is not that one becomes a devotee simply by renouncing the world and coloring the dress. But in any dress, in any capacity, one can satisfy Kṛṣṇa if His cause is served. If you apply your engineering talent in Kṛṣṇa's service . . . suppose we have to construct a nice temple of Kṛṣṇa. So if you apply your talent to engineering—just like in India we have got very wonderful temples—so then your engineering becomes perfect. Similarly, if some business is done, if you apply your business administrative talent . . . just like we are doing some business, Spiritual Sky. That is small business, but they are managing very nicely. This boy, Svarūpa Dāmodara, he is a great scientist, doctor in chemistry. He is trying to explain Kṛṣṇa through chemistry. Similarly, you can try to serve Kṛṣṇa through engineering. You can serve Kṛṣṇa by business administration.

Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "Everyone can serve by his own work." Kṛṣṇa is not stereotyped. Everything is Kṛṣṇa. So every department can be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. And if Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, then your talent in the particular department of knowledge is perfect. Then it attains perfection. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). Saṁsiddhi means perfection. And what is that perfection? That Kṛṣṇa will be pleased: "Yes, you are very good engineer," "You are very good business administrator," "You are very good chemist." So this is our philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We do not say: "This is bad. This is good." Everything is good, provided it is utilized for Kṛṣṇa's service. This is our philosophy.

So as Kṛṣṇa is all-pervading, our philosophy is also all-embracing. But as soon as one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness platform, he must be free from sinful activities.

(aside) Aiye. (come on)

Kṛṣṇa is . . .

(aside) Jaya.

Kṛṣṇa is pure, apāpa-viddham. So we must be pure to approach Kṛṣṇa. Just like if we want to enter fire we must be also highly tempered, almost like fire, same degree. Apāpa-viddham. Pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). So we should give up sinful activities and apply our energy for Kṛṣṇa's service. Then our life is perfect. That we are preaching.

You are from which province?

Guest (1): Jodhpur, Rajasthan.

Prabhupāda: Jodhpur, Rajasthan. She is your wife? You are from also Rajasthan?

Lady: Jodhpur.

Prabhupāda: Jodhpur? Same place. We had been in Jaipur. Great function we had . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . in whatever profession you are, you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa by your professional talent. Then your . . . Bhagavān is not stereotyped, that Bhagavān becomes . . . just like Bhīṣma, he was great devotee, and in the battlefield of Kurukṣetra Bhīṣma was piercing the body of Kṛṣṇa by arrows and Kṛṣṇa was feeling very nice. So it is not that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied simply by throwing rose flower. Sometimes a devotee throws arrow and Kṛṣṇa becomes satisfied. So we can satisfy Kṛṣṇa in so many ways. Kṛṣṇa is varied. He is not stereotyped. But we must know the art how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Then our life is successful.

Guest (1): How can we realize Kṛṣṇa is satisfied?

Prabhupāda: Yes, you'll realize when you satisfy actually. You have to take direction. Just like you are engineer or business administrator. You learn the art from a teacher, and then you can know how you are satisfying your master. Just like if you eat, then you can understand that, "How we are being satisfied." You haven't got to ask anybody, "Am I satisfied?" If you are eating, then you'll be satisfied. Similarly, if you serve Kṛṣṇa according to the superior direction, then you'll understand that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. First of all you have to learn how to satisfy, and then, reciprocally, you'll be aware that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied with you by the result.

Guest (2): Swāmījī, Kṛṣṇa says in Gītā that "Do your duty without . . . unmindful of result." But when we do our duties, or so-called normal karmas, we are always aware of the result. Like when you do a job you're aware that you're getting a check every two weeks and so on. Similarly, even the small things in our life, we are always first looking for the result as a matter of, I mean, these worldly people we are.

Prabhupāda: The result is . . . here there is no check. Just like these boys, these American boys, European boys, they have seen enough checks and they can pay enough checks. But they are not after checks. They are after Kṛṣṇa's service.

Guest (2): Does it mean that we should leave the work, and we should not work and . . .

Prabhupāda: No. That I have explained. You work for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. That is called "don't see to the result." Kṛpaṇa. Kṛpaṇāḥ phala-hetavaḥ. Kṛpaṇa. There are two classes of men: one is kṛpaṇa and one is brāhmin. Kṛpaṇa, they want his sense satisfaction, and brāhmin, they want Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. Satisfaction must be there, but when you want your satisfaction, that is kṛpaṇa. Kṛpaṇāḥ phala-hetavaḥ. He wants to enjoy the result. That is the whole world. Material world means everyone wants his sense satisfaction, but the same way, when you'll satisfy Kṛṣṇa's senses, then you become brāhmin or Vaiṣṇava.

The result must be there. If you work, there must be some result, bad or good. But if you want to enjoy yourself, then you are kṛpaṇa. And if the result is enjoyed by Kṛṣṇa, then you are brāhmin. Result must be there. Any work you do, there must be some result, and that is also described in the . . . Yajñārthāt karma. Yajña means Viṣṇu. For His sake one should work. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). If you work not for yajña, for your sense gratification, then you become bound up by the result of the karma, good or bad. So if we work for Kṛṣṇa, if the result is given to Kṛṣṇa, that is our perfection. Otherwise, kṛpaṇāḥ phala-hetavaḥ—we remain kṛpaṇa.

Guest (2): No, that is what my question is: how to do that. I mean, how in our day-to-day life . . .

Prabhupāda: That I have explained. Just like Arjuna, who was a fighter, warrior, means he fought for Kṛṣṇa. For himself, he was hesitating. He put all these questions that, "If I kill my brothers, then their wives will be widow, and they will be prostitutes and there will be varṇa-saṅkara, and then there will be no piṇḍa-dāna, and then the whole nation will go to hell," in this way, as he could think. But he was not thinking in terms of Kṛṣṇa. He was thinking in terms of his own benefit, "Whether I shall go to hell or heaven." That was his contemplation. Therefore he was taught Bhagavad-gītā. And after understanding Bhagavad-gītā he agreed to Kṛṣṇa's proposal. Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā (BG 18.73): "Now my illusion is gone. I have got my real consciousness, so I shall fight."

So the fighting was Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And when he was trying to become nonviolent, very benevolent to the family, he was chastised by Kṛṣṇa. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādām (BG 2.11): "You are talking like a very learned man, but you are fool." So this is our position. We may talk very learned, scholarly, but if we have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then we are subjected to the chastisement. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase (BG 2.11). So this is the position.

So nothing is bad if it is engaged for the service of Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, however good it may be in the estimation of material conception, it is the cause of bondage, good or bad. It doesn't matter. So you have to learn the art, how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That art you have to learn. Then your life is perfect.

tad viddhi praṇipātena
paripraśnena sevayā
upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ
jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ
(BG 4.34)
tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet
samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham
(MU 1.2.12)

So you have to learn the art from a person who is actually engaged in the service of satisfying Kṛṣṇa. Then, if you act accordingly, then your life is successful.

Guest (2): You are saying that man shouldn't have bondage?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is under bondage, good or bad.

Guest (2): But is good bondage good?

Prabhupāda: Good bondage, but it is bondage, after all. If you are prisoner, first-class prisoner or third-class prisoner, you are prisoner.

Guest (2): But doesn't bondage give the incentive to live?

Prabhupāda: No, bondage gives bondage. If you do not know how to get out of the bondage, then you will be more and more in bondage.

Guest (2): But if you don't have any bondage, then . . .

Prabhupāda: No, everyone is in bondage.

Guest (2): No, I mean, suppose idealistically . . .

Prabhupāda: What idealistic?

Guest (2): Hypothetical case that . . .

Prabhupāda: No, nothing hypothetical. Your bondage . . . bondage means that birth, death, old age and disease. This is bondage. We are all living entities, part and parcel of God. We are spirit soul. So this is not our business—birth, death, old age and disease. So bondage means so long you'll get this material body you are under this bondage: birth, death, old age and disease. Because you are very rich man, getting good salary, it does not mean that you will not die or disease will not attack you. This is bondage.

First of all try to understand what is bondage. Bondage and freedom. Bondage means to be subjected to the condition of this material body. That is called bondage. The body may be elephant's body or tiger's body or Brahmā's body or ant's body, but that is bondage. Because as soon as you get a material body you are under this bondage of birth, death, old age and disease. So your problem is how to get out of this bondage, not that to accept the bondage. Just like I am bound up by iron shackles, "Let me be bound up by golden shackles." So that is bondage. The people do not know. They are satisfied when they are bound up with golden shackles. That is called ignorance. He feels satisfied when he is locked up with golden shackles. That is called ignorance.

Guest (2): Nonmaterial bondage.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bondage means material. In spiritual life there is no bondage.

Guest (2): How about love between people? Just like this . . . is that bondage also?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also bondage. Suppose you love your countrymen. So you want to remain a faithful national, so you will get your birth again in this country or that country, as you like. (doorbell rings) So either you get your birth in India or in America, it doesn't matter; you are bound up by the laws of nature. It is not that Americans do not die, only Indians die. Everyone dies. So that is also bondage.

Guest (1): How about love towards relatives? They say: "Love your parents," or "Love your wife and children." Isn't that also bondage?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): Does that mean you should not love your parents?

Prabhupāda: No, there is no love in the material world. You love somebody with some personal interest. So that is not love. Everyone loves. To be frank enough, a wife loves husband so long he is nicely earning, and the husband loves the wife so long she is beautiful. That's all. This is the love. It is not love; it is lust. Love is different thing.

Guest (1): How about serving the parents?

Prabhupāda: First of all you try to understand one point. Don't jump like that. The same thing is applicable to parents and everything. There is no love in this world. That is illusion.

Guest (2): Is it like service to parents without expecting anything from them, because they have raised you, they have . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is your duty.

Guest (2): Yes, duty.

Prabhupāda: That's your duty. Just like to . . . I do not say that don't love your wife and don't love your parents. But I am just explaining the real situation.

Guest (2): I may be forgiven for diverting from the topic here. In Twelfth Chapter when Lord says, mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ . . . (BG 15.7)

Prabhupāda: That is Fifteenth Chapter.

Guest (2): Fifteenth, yes. What is the difference between the jīva and soul? Is it good to learn the differences and understand the depth of these things?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you do not learn, then you are darkness. Just like mamaivāṁśo. Just like your finger is the part of your body, similarly, you are part of the body of Kṛṣṇa. Now you have to learn. If you are part, just like finger is the part of my body . . . what is the duty of the finger?

Guest (2): To serve body.

Prabhupāda: That's all. The finger, so long it is serving my body like this, like this, it is in real condition, real, healthy condition. And if it is painful—it cannot serve—then it is not in healthy condition. So therefore any living entity who is not serving Kṛṣṇa, he is not in healthy condition. He is in māyā. Anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa's service, he is in māyā. That is, Kṛṣṇa says:

mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke
jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ
prakṛti-sthāni karṣati
(BG 15.7)

He is struggling hard within this material nature because he is not serving Kṛṣṇa. Therefore his punishment is to struggle hard in different species of life. There are 8,400,000 species of life, and he is transmigrating, but becoming happy this way or that way, that way, that way.

Just like you have come to America to become happy. Is it not? Otherwise why you left? Similarly, we are transmigrating from one country to another, one planet to another, one body to another, searching after happy, happiness. That is struggle for existence. So Kṛṣṇa says: "They are My part and parcel. Instead of serving Me, they are serving their mind and senses." Manaḥ-ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7).

So long we serve our senses and mind, we remain in this material world, prakṛti-sthāni. And as soon as we revive our real consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness—we serve Kṛṣṇa—that is liberation. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That is the ultimate instruction. So instead of serving the senses, kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā, just like serving the country, serving the family, something, the wife, and serving the husband, serving the father—all the services are different phases of kāma. Kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśāḥ. So at the present moment we are serving our senses. When the sense service will be transferred to Kṛṣṇa, that is liberation. And this is bondage.

Guest (2): Just now you said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This śaraṇaṁ vraja, could you just enlighten . . .

Prabhupāda: Śaraṇaṁ vraja—you just surrender. Whatever you say . . .

Guest (2): In daily life, I mean, like our practical life, how śaraṇāgati could be . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes, śaraṇāgati. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was hesitating to fight, but when he surrendered to Kṛṣṇa he fought.

Guest (2): He was lucky. Lord Kṛṣṇa was right there with him.

Prabhupāda: So Lord Kṛṣṇa's instruction is there. That is Lord Kṛṣṇa. There is no difference between Lord Kṛṣṇa and His instruction. He is absolute. Just like these boys, they are serving Kṛṣṇa. Lord Kṛṣṇa is not present. Lord Kṛṣṇa is present, but you do not know how He is present. Lord Kṛṣṇa is present by His name, Hare Kṛṣṇa. This Kṛṣṇa and the person Kṛṣṇa is not different. That you do not know. You are thinking Kṛṣṇa is gone, but Kṛṣṇa is present by His instruction, by His name, by His form, by His quality, by His pastime, because He is absolute.

Kṛṣṇa is never absent. Simply we have to see, we have to make our eyes to see Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is always present. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). Those who are saintly person, they are seeing twenty-four hours, every minute, Kṛṣṇa. Hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. How? Premāñjana-cchurita: when there is love of Kṛṣṇa. Just like ordinarily, if you love somebody, you will find him everywhere. So you have to develop your love for Kṛṣṇa; then Kṛṣṇa will be seen. Svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. Just like sun. You cannot see sun at night, but when sun becomes revealed before you, you can see sun and yourself and the whole world. Similarly, when Kṛṣṇa will reveal, being pleased with your service and love, you will see Kṛṣṇa, you will see yourself, you will see the whole world.

So simply you have to . . . just like one man is suffering from cataract. So by surgical operation make the eyes free from the cataract disease—he will see everything. Similarly, the cataract of your present eyes, material eyes, can be, I mean to say, relieved by Kṛṣṇa prema. Then you will see Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended, premā pum-artho mahān. If anything has to be achieved within this world, that is Kṛṣṇa prema. That we should engage our life, how to achieve Kṛṣṇa prema.

But we are not interested in Kṛṣṇa prema. So that is illusion. Human life is meant for achieving that stage, Kṛṣṇa prema, love of Kṛṣṇa. Then life is successful.

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo
yato bhaktir adhokṣaje
ahaituky apratihatā
yayātmā suprasīdati
(SB 1.2.6)

That is wanted. Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for invoking the dormant love for Kṛṣṇa that is there in everyone. Just like four or five years ago these boys, they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa. And now their countrymen is surprised, "How these boys are after Kṛṣṇa, mad after Kṛṣṇa?" That means love of Kṛṣṇa was there. It has simply be invoked.

In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta,

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa prema 'sādhya' kabhu naya
śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya
(CC Madhya 22.107)

The kṛṣṇa-prema, love of Kṛṣṇa, is within everyone. That love is being expressed in so many ways. Actually that is love for Kṛṣṇa. So when one invokes that love in proper condition, then he loves Kṛṣṇa and loves everyone. Here the so-called love is for some purpose. Just like we are . . . I have come to this country. My purpose is not to get some money from them. Because I think, "My Guru Mahārāja ordered that, 'You go to the Western countries,' " so I have come to the Western countries to give them Kṛṣṇa. And because they . . . everyone has Kṛṣṇa prema, they are accepting it.

You must be favorable. But if you don't accept, it is impossible to give you. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66): "You do." Kṛṣṇa can force him, but He is not forcing. Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna, "Whatever . . ." Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63), "Whatever you like, you can do." He does not force anyone, because the living entity, part and parcel of God, he has got independence. So Kṛṣṇa does not touch the independence of the living entity. He advises, "You do this. If you do this, then you will be saved." But if you do not do this, then Kṛṣṇa is not responsible; you are responsible.

Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. So if you do that—you take Kṛṣṇa's advice—then you are saved. But if you do not that, then you take your own responsibility. You travel in this cycle of birth and death and wander in different species of life, different planets. So that is your responsibility. Kṛṣṇa comes down to instruct you this philosophy, this fact. Now it is up to you to accept or not to ac . . . you have got the independence. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (BG 18.66). This is the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65).

janma karma ca me divyam
evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ
tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma
naiti mām eti . . .
(BG 4.9)
mām upetya punar janma
duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gataḥ
(BG 8.15)

That is the highest perfection; you go back to Kṛṣṇa. If you don't go, that is your choice.

Guest (2): What is this greatness, that . . . to know the divinity when Lord Kṛṣṇa says that "Those who know that I am divine and . . ." Janma karma ca me divyam (BG 4.9). How . . . what is the real meaning of knowing it, I mean? I read it ten times . . .

Prabhupāda: That is also: tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You find out somebody who can instruct you. But you find out—praṇipāta. You surrender, not with challenge. And sevā. And then you ask him and you know it. But if you have no praṇipāta, no sevā, simply challenging spirit, you'll never know it. That is not the process. If you want to know, then you must find out somebody where you can surrender. And you must . . . surrender means you must render service to him, and then you can ask him and he'll give you. Upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. That is the process. If you are serious to know, then you find out somebody where you can surrender. Because Kṛṣṇa also wants surrender, so you have to surrender to His representative. Then you will know.

Guest (2): And can one not directly surrender to Kṛṣṇa through his own feelings and heart and . . .?

Prabhupāda: No. No, that is not the process. Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches, gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). He wants to become the servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of Kṛṣṇa. That is the process. If you want to know Kṛṣṇa directly, it is not possible. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34)? And how you can approach Kṛṣṇa?

Guest (2): Chanting His names, surrendering to Him, feeling love for Him, doing service. Is that not . . . or would that not take one person to . . .?

Prabhupāda: No, that is not the way. Kṛṣṇa says, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). You have to accept the paramparā, disciplic succession. That is a challenge, that "I don't want to surrender anyone."

Guest (2): No, not challenge . . . I'm not saying . . . I mean, I'm not . . .

Prabhupāda: No, it is not possible. Kṛṣṇa accepted Himself a guru. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted a guru. They are God Himself. So how you can accept: "I can approach Kṛṣṇa without guru"? Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā. Kṛṣṇa . . . when actually you want Kṛṣṇa seriously—you do not know who is guru—then Kṛṣṇa will give you a guru. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. He was advised by his mother that, "If you go to the forest you can see God." So he went there. But when he was very serious, then Kṛṣṇa sent him Nārada Muni.

So if you are actually serious about Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa will send you some of His representative and he will take charge of you. That is the process. If you do not find a guru, that means Kṛṣṇa is not yet pleased, either you are not serious. Just like when you become serious of studying any subject matter, you find out some college, some institution. You cannot purchase the books and read at home and become expert engineer, expert. No. That is not the process.

Therefore the Vedic knowledge is called śruti. Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). So we have to hear by paramparā system. You attend the lectures of a professor because he has heard. He has listened the same instruction from his professor. You don't go to a professor who has never gone to school and college. Do you go there? So this knowledge . . . as material knowledge is received by paramparā, similarly, spiritual knowledge is received also by paramparā.

Kṛṣṇa says in the Fourth Chapter, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). By paramparā system. Sa kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa: "Because the paramparā was lost, therefore the science was lost. Therefore I shall again say the same system to you." Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyaṁ hy etad uttamam (BG 4.3) "I am trying to speak to you because you are My devotee. You are very dear friend." So similarly, one has to become a dear friend of Kṛṣṇa and devotee of Kṛṣṇa before he can understand what Kṛṣṇa says. You see?

There are so many Bhagavad-gītā editions in all the countries. So many big, big scholars presented Bhagavad-gītā. There was not a single person converted to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Do you agree to this point? Before this movement, not a single person . . . now there hundreds and thousands are coming, because the Bhagavad-gītā is presented as it is, not with adulteration. Now our Bhagavad-gītā As It Is . . . have you brought book?

Pradyumna: No.

Prabhupāda: This is published by Macmillan. It is eleven hundred pages. They printed in July fifty thousand copies. That is finished. Now they are going to print second edition. Since 1968 they are publishing our Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, and every year they are getting one edition. From the beginning . . . I think this is the fifth or sixth edition, and their business manager, trades manager's report, is that this Bhagavad-gītā is increasing sale; others' dwindling. Because it is presented as it is.

We present Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the Supreme Personality of Godhead." We present Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Kṛṣṇa says: "You surrender unto Me." We teach people, "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). We say: "You become Kṛṣṇa bhakta. You offer worship to Kṛṣṇa." We don't change anything. And therefore people are accepting. Adulteration, how long it will go on? You know very well. You are from Delhi. There is a Punjabi halwai, in the Chawri Bazar. You know that?

Guest (4): No, I have heard about it.

Prabhupāda: Because he sells, I mean to say, confectionery made of pure ghee you'll find always hundreds of customers waiting. And there are many dalda ghee shop, not so crowded. Some cheap men are going there. So anything you present pure, there will be automatic customer. And that is being proved. We are presenting Kṛṣṇa as He is, and He is being accepted everywhere, all over the world. But as soon as you make adulteration Kṛṣṇa, manufacture your concoction—"Kṛṣṇa means this, Kurukṣetra means this," all nonsense talk—immediately lost.

Why should we do that, adulteration? There is no business adulterating. So many scholars, so many svāmīs, they have simply presented adulterated. Just like even Mahatma Gandhi says: "The Kurukṣetra means this body." And where he got this meaning? Where is the dictionary meaning? You should speak something which must be authorized. Where is the dictionary where Kurukṣetra is explained as this body? And Kurukṣetra station is still existing. People are going to Kurukṣetra for religious performances. Kuru-kṣetre dharma-kṣetre. Why should I interpret Kurukṣetra, "The body"? This is going on.

So that will not be effective. It may be effective, a few person, somebody's admirer. But it will not go far above that. But if you present as it is, it will be accepted by any real inquirer.

Guest (2): Gītā Press, Gorakhpur, has those publications. I have one of them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Gītā Press has got different versions also.

Guest (2): . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Gītā Press also tried to preach Gītā since forty, forty years. But Bhagavad-gītā was . . . published by Gītā Press, was not in the Western countries. And we published this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is in 1968. It is now all over the world. And the Macmillan Company, the biggest publisher of the world, they are taking interest. Not only this book. For this book they are taking gradually all our books.

So our point is: present Kṛṣṇa as it is. That is real Indian culture. Don't present Kṛṣṇa adulterated. Your country will be glorified. The whole world will accept that India has got something to give. You are simply now beggar. So I have come to this country not to beg, but to give. That is my mission. And they are feeling, "Yes, we are getting something substantial."

Guest (3): There is one question which many people have asked. You don't have to answer them, but sometimes they say: "Why is it that Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is so popular in this country, has so many centers, and not that many centers in India, where Lord Kṛṣṇa . . .?"

Prabhupāda: He does not know. He is a foolish man. In India there are millions of centers. He does not know that. Simply if you go to Vṛndāvana you'll find five thousand temples. He does not know. He speaks nonsense. He speaks nonsense. The man who has spoken like that, he is a nonsense. He does not know what is the condition of India. Mass India, every person knows Kṛṣṇa. Every person is a temple of Kṛṣṇa. He does not know. He has spoken nonsense.

Guest (3): He has seen the book and from where the centers are listed, that's all. He is . . .

Prabhupāda: No, we have got center in Bombay. No, I have . . . my personal centers are not there. But just like Gītā Press: they are also publishing Bhagavad-gītā, millions of copies every month, and that is being distributed in India. So why does he say: "Indians, they do not know"? That is foolishness. Every Indian knows what is Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (2): You're talking about the center, Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (3): Yeah, they look at this point of view, because they think if that's the only movement which he associated with Lord Kṛṣṇa. But Lord Kṛṣṇa is almost in every home in India.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Janmāṣṭamī, Kṛṣṇa's birthday, is observed by every Indian still, although artificially they are being checked not to take to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is presented by government in so many bad way. You see? In government there is a paper—it is called "Indian Culture," something—in that paper Kṛṣṇa is depicted as a bil boy.

Guest (3): What?

Prabhupāda: Bil boy means just like black, Negro. And He is worshiped. Such a rascal. Kṛṣṇa is worshiped, and for Kṛṣṇa worship so many Vedic literature, and government is presenting Him as bil boy. Just see what kind of government we have got.

Guest (2): Is that right? It is surprise to me.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You'll find they have got paper, "Indian Culture," or . . . yes. One Mr. Ananda, he has written that nonsense article.

Guest (3): Of course, I have seen before 1963, before I came to this country.

Prabhupāda: So government is presenting Kṛṣṇa like that. Dr. Radhakrishnan has spoken like that. Yes. What he has spoken?

Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa was an aboriginal chief, tribal chief.

Prabhupāda: Such poor fund of knowledge, he is advertised as great scholar. He has no knowledge, and he writes Bhagavad-gītā. And now he is . . . for this offense he is now dead body. He cannot recognize any man, like this. He cannot say: "I am hungry." His daughter is always attending, giving some food, sitting idly. Just . . . what is the month?

Śyāmasundara: In Madras? We were there in February.

Prabhupāda: Yes. February. Yes. I was there. I saw him. I saw Mr. Raja Gopala Acarya with him. So he is a dead body, living dead body.

Guest (2): Raja Gopala Acarya has also written a lot of books.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not lot of. Some books he has written. So our request is to the Indians especially that we have got something to give to the world. Simply don't beg. Give something. Then you will be honored. You cannot compete with them by technology, by learning here. That is not possible. If you can give them something, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Guest (2): How far is saṁskāra powerful like . . .?

Prabhupāda: Well, saṁskāra you can change in a second. Saṁskāra may be powerful . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa assures you, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. He will give you protection. Saṁskāra means you did some sinful activities and you are suffering. But He gives you protection. Sarva-pāpebhyo. Then what is the meaning of saṁskāra? You can change your saṁskāra immediately by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. Why you are so much concerned with saṁskāra? He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ . . . ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa . . . (BG 18.66) The saṁskāra as effects of sinful activities, that is troublesome. So He gives you protection. Mā śucaḥ, "Don't worry."

Why don't you take this? You don't want to change your saṁskāra, and who can help you? That is a different thing. You don't want to change. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa is ready to give you all help. How their saṁskāra is changed? From the very beginning of their life they are addicted to these principles: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. How they have changed? They don't touch it. How it has become possible?

Guest (2): I believe they were great yogīs in their past lives.

Prabhupāda: And why you not?

Guest (2): I don't know that.

Prabhupāda: Because you don't surrender. That is the fact. If you surrender, you become also great yogī.

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ
śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ
sa me yuktatamo mataḥ
(BG 6.47)

He is first-class yogī who is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Topmost yogī. So you think of Kṛṣṇa always, you'll become topmost yogī.

Guest: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Don't be sorry. Indians, generally they say, "Oh, we know everything about Kṛṣṇa. What we have to learn?" Yes. When they go to some Indian, they say like that. What do they say?

Śyāmasundara: "We know all these things."

Guest (2): I don't say I know everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that Madrasi gentleman?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Chiwari? Dr. Chiwari?

Prabhupāda: Yes. In your . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, Krishnamurti.

Prabhupāda: Ah. They think, "Oh, what we have to learn from them about Kṛṣṇa? We are all-knowing." . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . and you were speaking, some of your Madras colleagues. They come here and immediately they learn how to eat meat . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Before they came they were not eating meat, but when they come here they normally, they buy it, they cook it, and they not only, just . . . they buy, themselves, and they do everything.

Prabhupāda: London . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . practically cent percent Indians, they eat meat.

Guest (4): Swāmījī, what is the role of meat-eating in . . .

Prabhupāda: Meat-eater means sinners. He cannot understand Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (4): Well, where is it . . .?

Prabhupāda: It is said in the śāstra, striyaḥ sūnā pānaṁ dyūtaṁ yatrādharmaś catur-vidhāḥ (SB 1.17.38), "Four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex life, striyaḥ; sūnā, the animal slaughter; pānam, intoxication; dyūtam, gambling." These are the four pillars of sinful life. So you have to break these pillars of sinful life. Then you can understand Kṛṣṇa. They have broken. On my word they have broken the first four pillars, and therefore they are advanced.

Guest (4): I have had several people ask my why I don't eat meat and why Indians, some Indians, don't eat meat. And I could not give them a convincing answer.

Prabhupāda: But that is there. It is stated in the śāstra. These are four sinful activities. (break) . . . upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. You have to take knowledge from tattva-darśī, jñānī, not from some people nonsense. What is the value of some people?

Guest (5): How to identify a true learned man?

Prabhupāda: That you have to become a learned man. If you are a fool, how you can understand who is learned man? You have to become a learned man. Is it not? Otherwise you will be cheated. Anyone will come—"I am learned man. I am God"—and you will be cheated, if you do not know what is God, what is learned man. So first of all you have to become learned man. Then you will understand who is learned man.

Guest (2): But to become learned, you go to so-called learned people and you go to so-called learned people. How do you know that those so-called learned are . . .

Prabhupāda: That has spoiled our Indian culture. That has spoiled our Indian culture. Everyone become learned man; everyone become a spiritualist. That's another . . . so best thing is to . . . why don't you accept Kṛṣṇa as the most learned man? That will save you. Everyone accepts Him, all the ācāryas—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Lord Caitanya. So why don't you accept Kṛṣṇa? Why you're searching after learned man? Here is the best learned man. Simple truth. If you simply argue, that is a different thing. But if you want really learned man, Kṛṣṇa is here. Take Kṛṣṇa as He is; then you learn everything.

So I shall go now. What is the time?

Satsvarūpa: It's eight-thirty now.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct Hindi) . . . fruits . . . just accept Kṛṣṇa, the most learned man. Follow His teaching. Your life is perfect. And practically you see: they have accepted Kṛṣṇa the supreme teacher, and how their life is becoming perfect. (Hindi) Kṛṣṇa ye bhaje se baḍa catura. Unless one is very, very intelligent he cannot come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa ye bhaje se baḍa catura. As Kṛṣṇa is very cunning, intelligent, so His devotee is also very cunning and intelligent. Kṛṣṇa ye bhaje se baḍa catura. Kṛṣṇa also says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19): "After many, many births' struggling, when he actually becomes wise, jñānavān," māṁ prapadyate, "he surrenders to Me." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19): "That mahātmā is very rare to be found."

mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha
daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritaḥ
bhajanty ananya-manaso
jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam
(BG 9.13)

This is mahātmā. This is description of mahātmā.

Guest (2): Why . . . when you said ananya, is there a conflict between a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa when he chants Lord Rāma's name . . .?

Prabhupāda: Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, the same. Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, the same. Kṛṣṇa means Viṣṇu-tattva. So Viṣṇu-tattva has many forms. So any Viṣṇu form will do.

rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā niyamena tiṣṭhan
nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu
kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat paramaḥ pumān yo
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
(Bs. 5.39)

Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu. He has got different forms: Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha, many other forms, Govinda, Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa. So rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā niyamena tiṣṭhan nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu, kṛṣṇaḥ svayam. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). These are the Vedic statements. And Kṛṣṇa also said, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7).

mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ
jagad avyakta-mūrtinā
mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni
na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ
(BG 9.4)

Everything is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore to become wise after many, many births of struggling or cultivating knowledge, when one comes to perfection of knowledge he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa.

So therefore one who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, he is the most perfect man, even without knowing Kṛṣṇa. Just like gopīs. They did not know Kṛṣṇa, whether He is God or some . . . simply loved Kṛṣṇa: "Kṛṣṇa is very beautiful." That's all. So their perfection is the highest. They did not try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Vedānta, what is Bhagavad-gītā. At that time Bhagavad-gītā was not spoken even. Kṛṣṇa was at that time a boy. But they loved Kṛṣṇa with their heart and soul. Kṛṣṇa was their everything. And therefore their position is the topmost.

So somehow or other, we have to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Then our life is successful. Otherwise not. So we do it knowingly or unknowingly; the effect is the same. Fire, you touch, knowingly or unknowingly, it will act. It is not that if a child touches fire without knowing, knowledge, it is not that fire will not burn. And similarly . . . that is stated in the Bhāgavata. Kāmāt krodhād bhayāt. Some way or other, come to Kṛṣṇa. Just like gopīs came to Kṛṣṇa—kāmāt. Kṛṣṇa was very beautiful, so they wanted to associate with Kṛṣṇa. Bhayāt. Kaṁsa and Śiśupāla, they were afraid of Kṛṣṇa, but still, they became Kṛṣṇa conscious, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Bhayāt. Krodhāt. Śiśupāla, krodhāt. He was very much envious of Kṛṣṇa. Pūtanā-rākṣasī, she wanted to kill Kṛṣṇa. So if kamāt-krodhād-bhayāt coming to Kṛṣṇa, they get perfection, what to speak of loving Kṛṣṇa, what is their position?

So some way or other, you come to Kṛṣṇa. That is our mission. Yena tena prakāreṇa manaḥ kṛṣṇa niveśayet. Somehow or other, just attach your mind to Kṛṣṇa; your life is perfect. And what is the objection? Kṛṣṇa is most beautiful, Kṛṣṇa is most opulent, Kṛṣṇa is more powerful, Kṛṣṇa giving you assurance, "I give you protection," and still, if you don't take to Kṛṣṇa it is misfortune, simply misfortune. Unfortunate. So you remain. If you want to remain unfortunate, who can help you? So instead of arguing, you just surrender to Kṛṣṇa and make your life successful. That's it. That is wanted.

Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma . . . now, these foreigners, they are practiced, always chanting Kṛṣṇa. You cannot do that? Why? Let me know why. You are all young boys; they are also young. They have got more facilities for sense enjoyment than yours. Why don't you take to it? So it is better late than never. Take to it. Take interest in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You are all Indians. Make your life successful. Help others and be helped.

(aside) What is this?

(Hindi—discussing prasāda to be served) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Tūrṇaṁ yateta. (indistinct Hindi) Life is very short. Any moment it can be finished. Tūrṇaṁ yateta na pated anu-mṛtyu yāvat. Before the next death comes . . . you give me in a plate. Where is restroom?

Satsvarūpa: We have our temple in Dallas. I don't know if any of you have been there. It's on Gurley Street, off East Grand, very big building there, and we have a school there for children Śrīla Prabhupāda has started, called Gurukula. It's based on Vedic philosophy that the children at a very early age is the best time for them to learn these principles, so that later in life, whether they become householder life or whatever business they take to, they will know the principles, how to avoid sinful activities, knowing love of Kṛṣṇa.

So we have about thirty children there now, and Śrīla Prabhupāda has come to Dallas . . . he's traveling all over, but he's come here just for a few days to see this school, to see how his devotees are managing the children. He's given us so much advice how to improve the school. Also while he's here—coincidentally, you would say, but Kṛṣṇa is in control. So his arrival, we received Deities, large Deities of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, marble Deities, forty-eight inches. And so tomorrow Śrīla Prabhupāda is going to install these Deities in our temple. That's going to be early in the morning, at eight o'clock. But then all day long, up until the evening, there will be distribution of prasādam and . . . just the idea of coming out to see the Deities. Most of the devotees . . . there are about a hundred devotees back at the temple now, and they are all working very, very quickly, hard, to get everything ready.

Śyāmasundara: Do you have another small table?

Guest (2): Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Or else we can take this one.

Satsvarūpa: So please come to the temple tomorrow, to take darśana. I know everyone works or is busy, but try to come at least in the evening and see this. As Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying, the name is not different than Kṛṣṇa. We chant on our big japa beads. The holy name is the same as Kṛṣṇa is in His form or in the picture or the same as His philosophy. And so these Deity forms, we don't consider Them as marble Deities but as Kṛṣṇa Himself. People misunderstand. They think this is idol worship, that we are worshiping some idol, bowing down to idols. Same with the food, they don't understand. We offer food to the Deity. But Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that "If you offer Me a little fruit or a leaf or water . . ."

Prabhupāda: So Śyāmasundara, you can invite all these gentlemen tomorrow.

Śyāmasundara: He is doing that now.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Satsvarūpa: So that is actually Kṛṣṇa Himself within the Deity, and He accepts the food by our prayers. So just by His seeing, by His glancing . . . try to come and see all these things. And every Sunday we have a festival there. Every evening we have classes on Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. And as long as we students repeat what Śrīla Prabhupāda said, they have the same potency. We don't try to make something up that our guru didn't teach us. We just try to present his teachings.

Guest (2): That's good. Please take it, and then we're going to distribute it to everybody. This is Sister Lucille Perry. She has been to India.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Come here.

Lucille: It was a short trip . . .

Prabhupāda: You had been in India?

Lucille: Yes, sir. I missed you by one or two days. I went to Bombay, and I was staying at Swami Muktananda's, and it said you would be there. The next two days you were going to be there for about a week. And since you have to have permission to leave, I said: "Well, that's why I had gone to India."

Prabhupāda: The Bombay, you have seen our place?

Lucille: No, sir.

Prabhupāda: We have got our place in Juhu.

Lucille: You know Prajāpati in Boston?

Satsvarūpa: Prajāpati, the president of Boston temple. He's a Dallas boy. He's from Dallas.

Lucille: His name was Chandra, but . . . (indistinct)

Guest (2): Is he in Dallas? (several people talking, prasāda being served)

Prabhupāda: What is that? Milk? So many nice preparations given by Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I eat meat? Where is the necessity? Human being must discriminate what he shall eat. If you say: "Everything is food," then stool is also food for the hog. But the food for the human being must be different from the hog.

Guest (2): Is it our duty to convince everybody and to argue with people and say: "Now . . ." Because most of the people would argue for "Where is your protein?" "Needs his protein," and you know, when they talk in terms of body consciousness rather than Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It's very hard to argue with that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have argued. All these European boys, I had to argue with them. (laughter)

Lucille: (indistinct) . . . in Bombay, and the first thing he did was argue with me.

Prabhupāda: Big, big svāmīs, they are advocating, "Eat meat."

Guest (2): Is that right?

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Ramakrishna Mission, they eat meat.

Guest (2): I don't think so.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Lucille: I don't know about the svāmīs, but I know a lot of the Vedāntists do.

Guest (2): That's news to me.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vivekananda says: "What is that, meat-eating?" Kṛṣṇa says, makes division . . .

Guest (2): Ramakrishna Paramahamsa was the incarnation of Lord Rāma and Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: That is to Vivekananda, not to others.

Guest (2): Was he not realized?

Prabhupāda: That is another question. Don't bring controversial. If you have got Kṛṣṇa, what is the use of Ramakrishna? When you have got Kṛṣṇa original, why should you go to Ramakrishna? A shopkeeper says: "This is the same medicine, sir, but it is very cheap." But a real customer says: "No, I want the original. I don't want this imitation. Give me the original." Accepting Ramakrishna as incarnation, so why shall I go to incarnation when I have got Kṛṣṇa?

Guest (2): Like you said, guru you know. We go through . . .

Prabhupāda: There is paramparā. So there is symptoms of guru, not that everyone becomes guru. These are controversial points. We don't want this. Why don't you give the ladies first, these ladies? (indistinct Hindi) Yes. I am old man. Old men, children, ladies, they must be first supplied. That's . . .

Guest (2): First (indistinct Hindi).

Prabhupāda: Our Indian etiquette is that first brāhmins, then woman, children, then others.

Lucille: In Mexico, too, the older people.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you are coming from Mexico?

Lucille: No, I have . . .

Prabhupāda: We have got our temple in Mexico City. What is the address of our temple?

Śyāmasundara: It's near Chapultepec Park.

Lucille: I hope to go visit my grandmother.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Mexico is very nice city. I have gone there.

Guest (2): Being a brāhmin by birth, does it mean anything?

Prabhupāda: No. They are not born of brāhmin father; now they are brāhmins.

Guest (2): But you were saying about brāhmins, so I . . .

Prabhupāda: Brāhmins means qualified brāhmins. When you say engineer, that means qualified engineer, not born engineer. Engineer is not born. "Because his father is engineer, he is engineer." And what is this? You become engineer. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). There must be qualification and work; otherwise what kind of brāhmin? (indistinct Hindi) These are all milk preparation. We can make so many hundreds and thousands of milk preparation. Instead of cutting the throat of the cows, why don't you use her milk? Dallas is a great place for cutting the throat of cows?

Śyāmasundara: All over Texas.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest (2): Fort Worth.

Śyāmasundara: Where we went to that television show today, that was Fort Worth. That's another city. They have more slaughterhouses.

Guest (2): I had some arguments about this. Some people won't eat cow. They say: "It's not Indian cow, so we can eat it." (laughs) All kinds of intelligent arguments.

Prabhupāda: Indian people say like that?

Guest (2): Some of them, not all. It's not said anybody. It's just argument of people that . . . even Americans. People, they say: "We are not killing your sacred cow, because your sacred cow is in your country." It was long ago, I remember. During lunch break we had some argument.

Prabhupāda: Then what are these? American cows?

Guest (2): Yes. They said: "Our cows are not holy."

Prabhupāda: Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām. They are blind. They do not know about self. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām (SB 2.1.2). Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. Everyone is born fool. So fool's activities means defeat. So human life, although born fool, they should have knowledge. Without knowledge all their activities are defeat of life, parābhava. So long he is not inquisitive to understand what is his self, whatever he is doing, it is simply for his defeat, parābhava.

Guest (2): One thing I have been thinking for years together, but I could never understand it. In Bhagavad-gītā, when Lord Kṛṣṇa . . . Arjuna asks a question, kena prayukto 'yaṁ pāpaṁ carati pūruṣaḥ. Lord Kṛṣṇa says, kāma eṣa krodha eṣa rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ (BG 3.37). The kāma . . . where is the beginning of this kāma?

Prabhupāda: Rajo-guṇa. That is stated, rajo-guṇa. (indistinct Hindi) Rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ. Therefore you have to come to the sattva-guṇa. Sattva-guṇa, to come to the sattva-guṇa, you have to sāttvika vikāra (Hindi) . . . they are described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Brahmā-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). That is sattva-guṇa. Satyaṁ śaucam.

Guest (2): Guṇa . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Guṇa, develop. They are . . . they are developing these brahminical qualifications, coming to sattva-guṇa. From rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa, they are coming to sattva-guṇa. Sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye . . . tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. Rajas-tamaḥ, these qualities are manifested by lust and greediness.

tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ
kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye
ceta etair anāviddhaṁ
sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati
(SB 1.2.19)

When one's heart will not be disturbed by these two qualities, tamo-guṇa and rajo-guṇa, then he will be situated in sattva-guṇa. Ceta etair anāviddhaṁ sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati. Then he becomes satisfied. At that time he becomes jolly.

evaṁ prasanna-manaso
mukta-saṅgasya jāyate
(SB 1.2.20)

When he becomes jolly, being situated in sattva-guṇa, at that time he can understand what is bhagavat-tattva, what is the Absolute Truth, not in the rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. That is not possible. That is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā:

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
(BG 18.54)
bhaktyā mām abhijānāti
yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ
. . . (indistinct)
(BG 18.55)

Guest (2): The problem is, most of the time we spend our life in rajo-guṇa.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest (2): The problem is most of the time . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): . . . life goes in rajo-guṇa.

Prabhupāda: Tamo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa.

Guest (2): Tamo and rajo-guṇa . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Śyāmasundara: Do you want us to distribute this? Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is special water from the Ganges if you want to drink some.

Prabhupāda: I have taken it, little. That's all. (pause) Harer nāma, harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). (pause) So tomorrow you are all invited. Please come. You are also invited.

Śyāmasundara: A special ceremony tomorrow.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): Can we get one picture of the group?

Prabhupāda: Yes, sit down. No.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Guest (2): Why don't you all move and please stand . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . can some of them stand over that side?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): Why don't you . . . you could come on this side and ladies over there. You people have to sit on your knees. I am sorry. I think I'll take one group, some people, and then do some other. (pause)

Prabhupāda: So it is a happy meeting?

Guest (6): Yes, Mahārāja is converting . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Please come tomorrow . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . what time you have given them? Any time?

Satsvarūpa: Yes. The ceremony is in the morning, but if they can't make it, all day long we'll be distributing prasādam. Come and see the Deities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Any time you can convince him to come. Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Guest (6): Thank you . . . (indistinct Hindi) (end)