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720923 - Morning Walk - Los Angeles

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

720923MW-LOS ANGELES - September 23, 1972 - 33:12 Minutes

Karāndhara: Like night is only night in relationship with day. Big is only big in relationship to small.

Prabhupāda: So they accept that there is small and there is big?

Karāndhara: Relatively.

Prabhupāda: Yes, relatively.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes it is delivered by time and space. Recalled five seconds or ten seconds it's relative so nothing is absolute.

Prabhupāda: Why do they not understand relativity of brain?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They’re also trying to understand that. That they haven’t proposed that.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They haven’t proposed, so far.

Karāndhara: The formula is that . . . Haribol. Energy equals.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: E=mc2?

Karāndhara: Five times the.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mass times the square of the velocity of light.

Karāndhara: . . . (indistinct)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Of the velocity of light.

Prabhupāda: In psychology, there is study brain substance. Brain substance of all men are not equal. Is it known to the scientist? Brain substance?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. I think it is known because when Einstein died they tried to preserve the brain of Einstein. Thinking that his brain was different from others.

Prabhupāda: If it was not different then how he became distinguished?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The brain substance is different just like everybody intelligence different.

Prabhupāda: Yes. According to the brain substance there is difference of intelligence.

Karāndhara: They attribute a lot more factors too like environment, the government.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, so relative brain, relative life . . . (indistinct) . . . just like the duration of life of Brahmā is different from the duration of life of Hitler. So relatively there are so many different species of life living entities, do the scientists agree or not?

Karāndhara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Then why they are (distinct) the perfect brain which is God's.

Karāndhara: Well the atheists they say.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is not a question of atheists.

Prabhupāda: Eh? It is a question of science.

Karāndhara: They say that the scientific conclusions that relativity extends for infinity.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that infinity that infinite brain is God's.

Karāndhara: Well they say there is no need for one infinite.

Prabhupāda: No there is need because you are operator in the laboratory, hydrogen, oxygen you can make one glass of water. Why not the biggest brain can make the Pacific Ocean? How can you deny it? If you accept the law of relativity then as, just like an ant it can go hole small in the room but if you can make a tunnel, similarly one can make the biggest tunnel.

Karāndhara: Well they say that you are just material energy and water. Everyone is material energy.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is material energy but it is working relatively according to the relative brain in body. So ultimately the infinite brain must be there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That empowered brain is absolute.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is not dependent on anyone.

Karāndhara: They see, they see because the small relativity just like we are relative our capacity just like everything is relative.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karāndhara: God also has to be relative.

Prabhupāda: Yes God is relative, you’re small He's big.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That's all. What is the use of. You’re teeny and he's infinite.

Karāndhara: Well on that basis also we can say that we are God over the ants.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that we have explained every time but we are not supreme but in comparison to the ants, I am God.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Relatively.

Prabhupāda: Similarly the ant is also God in comparison with the microbe.

Karāndhara: Well they say that as relativity extends there is no supreme supreme.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Karāndhara: Just relative supreme.

Prabhupāda: Relative supreme indeed. Just like you are supreme, you’re God to the ants similarly he is supreme to . . . (indistinct)

Karāndhara: Well that. On that point they won’t agree.

Prabhupāda: Why they shall not agree? Eh? Why they shall not agree?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they are after complete information.

Prabhupāda: Then there is no question of information it is a question of knowledge and philosophy. As I see relative, this is small, this big, this is bigger than this, this is bigger than this, this is bigger than this bigger than this. When you find the no more bigger then that is God.

Karāndhara: They say that relative scale of small and bigger that goes on forever it never stops.

Prabhupāda: Yes that's all right, that's all right but you have to accept somebody bigger than you.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in the, in the, in the material time scale there is no Absolute.

Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Vedas, nityo nityānām. God means that He is also eternal, we are also eternal everything eternal. As they say everything is existing but the operation is different. Operation is relative. God means His operational activities must go higher in importance than yours.

I have a small body like this if you are asked to pick up something from the midst of the ocean you cannot do it. But if one can assume very big body so that in the midst of the ocean the water is like this, up to this. How can you deny it?

Karāndhara: Well they won’t deny that. They simply deny the existence of an absolute supreme.

Prabhupāda: There is no question of absolute you have to accept bigger than you. Just like this small bird, it is walking in the water on the beach. The water may be up to this. And somebody may come in the midst of the water and the water goes away after the animal. How can you deny it?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is making a lot of noise.

Karāndhara: No they wouldn’t deny that.

Prabhupāda: And therefore if you accept that then it is all right. That is God. He is greater than you that's all. Same example combine hydrogen and oxygen, hydrogen and oxygen is there you mix you can make a glass of water in the laboratory. The hydrogen and oxygen is there but you cannot mix big quantities of hydrogen and oxygen and make a sea. But one who can do that he is bigger than you.

Karāndhara: But because that relativity extends on.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karāndhara: Then that discounts the importance of any one person.

Prabhupāda: Yes important, you cannot make the sea. You can make a glass of water, therefore one who has made the sea he is much more important than yourself. How can you deny it?

Karāndhara: They say that then there is someone more important than the one who has made the sea.

Prabhupāda: Eh? That's all right but as long as you accept that there is somebody bigger than you who can make the sea. There may be somebody bigger than you that's, that's all right but you have said that you are small, he is big.

That we have explained in the Brahma-saṁhitā that the Mahā-Viṣṇu from his breathing millions of universes are coming and again they are; yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad. viṣṇur mahān sa iha . kalā-viśeṣo (Bs 5.48). This Mahā-Viṣṇu is only a portion. Is a plenary expansion of Kṛṣṇa.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Hm.

Prabhupāda: Mahā-Viṣṇu is also nothing, that we have said. Relatively, more more more more.

Karāndhara: You see their point is. Of arguing would be that they don’t accept that there is a transcendental energy that exists.

Prabhupāda: Never mind but you have to accept that you are not even insignificant ant before Him. That you accept then our proposition is finished.

Karāndhara: Well then.

Prabhupāda: You are, you are nothing but an insignificant ant in comparison to His power.

Karāndhara: But they think just like the ant may have . . . infinitely . . . power but the ant is not increasing his power but human beings are increasing their power.

Prabhupāda: You see, for the time being you are nothing but an insignificant creature. When you agree, just like everyone is trying to become a very big businessman but not that before becoming a Rockefeller he can claim that I am a Rockefeller. That is nonsense. You become Rockefeller then you become.

Karāndhara: Just the, just the possibility of becoming one intoxicates them.

Prabhupāda: Yes the possibility is not a fact. Everyone has got the possibility of becoming Rockefeller but that does not mean that everyone is Rockefeller. That is another thing.

Karāndhara: But the possibility puffs them up, intoxicates them.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Karāndhara: The possibility intoxicates them.

Prabhupāda: Then you can think that all the banks belong to me, that is another intoxication. If you want to be happy then all the banks of Los Angeles they belong to me. I am the proprietor, if that intoxication gives you some relief (laughs) enjoy that. But actually you are a mad man, if you think like that.

Karāndhara: . . . some human beings have done that.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Karāndhara: Some human beings have done that.

Prabhupāda: But you’re not, first of all you accept. Some may have done some maybe not but you’re not, first of all you accept that. You have not done that.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The, the, the problem of relativity is all right. Say for example I can make five balls and one ball is smaller than others. So like that I can make five different kinds of balls but these are related with other but I’m, I’m making these balls, you know. So there has to be a, a, a person who can make these relative things.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Otherwise there is no question of relativity if there is someone who is operating these relative things.

Karāndhara: Well they will say the relative energy creates relative manifestations. The energy which is making the balls is still relative.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes but there has to be a, a person who is engaged in making these relative things otherwise there would be no relativity.

Karāndhara: That is still a relative energy.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be somebody is operating the relative law. We explained many times that everyone is God that's all right but relative God.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Karāndhara: In modern, in modern physics one school of thought is everything that happens even a manifestation of personality, intelligence, everything is simply a different combination of material energy.

Prabhupāda: That's all right that is relative.

Karāndhara: So there is no, no necessary question of who is the person, if it is simply atoms.

Prabhupāda: Because you are person therefore everything must be person. You are studying as a person you’re not a dead person . . . (indistinct)

Karāndhara: They say that person, that personality is also just atoms in different orbits.

Prabhupāda: That's all right we agree, we agree we therefore we say see God, varuna, a person.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are like atomic particles, of God.

Prabhupāda: We accept that. Everything person . . . (indistinct)

Karāndhara: If everything is atoms and atoms are not persons.

Prabhupāda: Why not persons? We say that within the atom there is.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Soul.

Prabhupāda: God.

Karāndhara: Well that they cannot see.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Karāndhara: That they cannot see.

Prabhupāda: But they cannot see so many things, rascals. What seeing power they have got? (laughs) They cannot see what is there within the ocean. That does not mean there is no living entity. Your seeing power is defective . . . a small microbe . . . (indistinct) . . . microbe small . . . (indistinct) . . . within that microbe body there is all physiological machine, you cannot see.

Karāndhara: (indistinct) . . . practical.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Karāndhara: A crazy man comes up and and says . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Practical means you have to accept that you are small insignificant and there is very very big. That is the answer. How you can deny it? As you can create a glass of water by mixing hydrogen and oxygen. So another person who can create the sea by mixing hydrogen and oxygen. He is greater than you, you have to accept.

Karāndhara: No they just say it is all the same thing anyway.

Prabhupāda: That's all right but you cannot operate it. Energy is there the material is there. The solution is that if we accept the law of relativity we have to accept God. That is the question.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There's, there's there's no question about it . . . in other words God is infinite and we are finite particles of . . . small living fragments.

Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . smaller than the smallest bigger than the biggest. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8) You are creating one glass of water by mixing hydrogen and oxygen. God is creating millions of trillions of Pacific oceans simultaneously.

Just like the seasonal changes, as soon as the season changes millions of trees immediately grows leaves, immediately. When there is seasonal change of seasons immediately millions of trees without leaves. This is God's plan.

Karāndhara: Well they don’t.

Prabhupāda: And energy is working in the same way. You can also create one leaf, it will take at least three days, artificially one who is. but that is also not perfect. But God is creating millions of trees and millions and trillions of leaves within a second. That you can see.

Karāndhara: But they won’t credit that to a person.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Karāndhara: They won't give any credit.

Prabhupāda: But that is their foolishness.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: But therefore they are rascals. Eh? You kick him with shoes, ". . . (indistinct) . . .? No I'm all right."

Karāndhara: They’d say, just like you build a big fire that makes the heat 100° and a small fire produces 5°, it is still fire.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Karāndhara: It's all the same . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: You are also living entity, He is also living entity. That we can know. You’re also fire. He is also fire but you are spark. He's big fire. That is the difference. A spark is also fire.

Karāndhara: Ah.

Prabhupāda: Who denies it?

Karāndhara: They say it is all one.

Prabhupāda: All one, then why there is not in consciousness? That is our philosophy.

Karāndhara: They say it is the whole material energy as being.

Prabhupāda: That's all right but . . .

Karāndhara: They don’t accept anything beyond that.

Prabhupāda: . . . the presence of quantity is there that is relativity. That I am trying to convince. You can make a glass of water that quantity and if I can make a Pacific Ocean that quantity is not the one. The water is one that's all and the process of manufacturing is also one but the quantity is different.

Karāndhara: Because the Vedas . . . energy saying then there is no need for God.

Prabhupāda: No, there is need of God, you cannot make the Pacific Ocean, your God is needed.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We simply say that God's power is inconceivable.

Prabhupāda: Yes it's inconceivable to you but it's not inconceivable to Him.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He knows His business.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because our brain is so teeny.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Compared with His.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So He cannot conceive His power.

Prabhupāda: That is inconceivable. (break) It is described the distance of the Sun, let them create a small Sun, so that at night there is no need of.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Electricity?

Prabhupāda: Electricity light.

Karandhara: Actually, the thing that has created the sun has created us.

Prabhupāda: That is one after another. This creation of something, by that energy another thing is created, another thing is . . . that is going on. That is the law of creation: one after another.

Karandhara: They won't . . . they don't see anyone behind that.

Prabhupāda: What power of seeing? That is their foolishness. What they can see? How far they can see? The so-called seeing is useless. The scientist, what he can see?

Devotee: Dr. Frog's philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Frog's.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We see that so-called . . . the scholars and scientists are nothing but an imitation, just like . . . (break) . . . for example, discoveries like airplane, they discovered because they imitated the flying of birds.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They saw how the birds are flying, so they imitated: two wings and then like shape of a bird. This is not their creation; this is imitation from nature's . . . work of nature. Same thing, all discoveries are just imitations.

Prabhupāda: Still they cannot imitate. Just like a small bird also flying here.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So what machinery is there? If they can invent that machinery, then this . . . (indistinct) . . . question is over. But he cannot see that. This bird is also flying and aeroplane is also flying, but you are flying the aeroplane on the strength of petroleum, and in the bird there is no petroleum. The bird is creating his own energy from within. Machine is so made that he is flying without petroleum. Why don't you do that? You see?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because the living force . . . in the bird there is a living force.

Karandhara: They think they can.

Prabhupāda: They have not done it. Again the same thing.

Karandhara: "In the future."

Prabhupāda: "In future." (laughs) That is nonsense. When you do it, then you claim.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So, for example, a computer, a computer is just like human brain. And it's different to a degree, but it works like a human brain. But of course it does not operate inde . . .

Prabhupāda: No. The human brain is there; he is pushing the button. Without human brain it cannot work. The human brain is there. It is not human brain. The machine itself is not human brain. The human brain outside the machine works it.

Karandhara: They are convinced that they can make a human brain.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You again take future. This foolishness is going on, but we don't accept such foolishness, "In future." Everyone can say: "In future I shall become . . ."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's why in one branch of science so-called trying to solve "In future," so for example they are already trying to tell what is going to happen in two thousand years. So they say in two thousand years, for example, what type of . . . (indistinct) . . . is going to happen today, so let us . . .

Prabhupāda: But he cannot say what is going to happen to him two thousand years.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He cannot say even, I mean, tomorrow what's going to happen.

Karandhara: He must be existing, as much as he is existing now, because the energy will all be . . .

Prabhupāda: The energy is already existing. We don't require to think of what will happen. The energy is existing, why you bother yourself? Let the energy do this work. And actually it is being done. Just like that Mr. Johnson, he was president; he was always busy, "What will happen? What will happen?"

Now . . . (indistinct) . . . is over, and still the government is going on without him. The government is going on without him, but when he was in the government he was thinking, "Oh, how to do this?"

Karandhara: You might say the government is going on because he was conscientious like that when he was the president.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but without him the government can go on. Why does he not think like that?

Karandhara: (indistinct) . . . think like that.

Prabhupāda: Hah?

Karandhara: Just like if I thought . . . if I think I don't have to do anything because everything will go on anyway . . .

Prabhupāda: No. If you accept that energies are already there, then why should you bother? The energy will act automatically.

Karandhara: But I am also that energy, so I am acting because . . .

Prabhupāda: But when you are not acting, the energy is still going on. So your acting or no acting, it doesn't matter.

Karandhara: What if I say that, "It doesn't matter whether I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or not, because the energy is the same"?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It's there. They are same. But we do not belong to that; we belong to—what is called—discriminating human being. We want to create something for advancement of the living entities. We want advancement. Advancement means I have to do that. Therefore if I want to go, advance, I have to work. Your working will not do. My working is there—if I want to advance.

Karandhara: . . . (indistinct)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So planning, planning for something is necessary. Without planning, thinking that there are energies everywhere . . .

Prabhupāda: Planning . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We cannot just . . .

Prabhupāda: Planning is necessary. But that planning should be within the big planning. You cannot plan anything independently.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Hmm.

Karandhara: In relation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) So prove existence of God by this law of relativity.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, everything is working under the laws of nature. Nothing remains stopped. Everything works.

Prabhupāda: Nimitta-mātraṁ bhava savya-sācin (BG 11.33), that is the instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā. When Arjuna was declining to fight, Kṛṣṇa ultimately says that "Don't think that all these men who have gathered here, they'll go home. It is already planned they have to die. You fight or not fight, they'll die. That plan is already made." . . . (indistinct) . . . we have to endeavor for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and nothing else. Everything is there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: That is required. Because we are living entity, we have got a little independence. By misuse of independence we have become out of Kṛṣṇa's appreciation. So we have to try for that, to again go back to the association. Nothing else. Other things will go on. We don't require to become a scientist or physist or this or . . . we don't require.

We simply require to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is your only business. (break) . . . scientists. (laughing) Scientists, they are trying to create this . . . (indistinct) . . . I think . . . (indistinct) . . . going on. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). You simply surrender—that is your business. No other business.

vyavasāyātmikā buddhir
ekeha kuru-nandana
bahu-śākhā hy anantāś ca
buddhayo 'vyavasāyinām
(BG 2.41)

(break) (end)