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730221 - Lecture BG 02.13 - Auckland

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

730221BG-AUCKLAND - February 21, 1973 - 49:30 Minutes


. . . dhīras tatra na muhyati
(BG 2.13)

This is very important verse, Bhagavad-gītā, beginning of spiritual life. Spiritual life and material life, what is the difference? Material life means the bodily concept of life, "I am this body." This concept of life is prevalent amongst the animals. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). Kuṇape means bag. This body is a bag made of blood, bones, marrow, muscles, and stool, urine, pus, nails, hair, like that. Everyone can understand. If you analyze this material body, what ingredients you will find? These things you will find. These things you will find in animal's body also—blood, muscles, flesh, bones, stool, urine, nails, hair, like that. So these are the ingredients of the material body.

They are, materialistic scientists, they are studying the brain substance, but what is this brain substance? This is also matter. Brain substance actually do not work. That is something else. That is, that information is being given here: dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Within this body there is the proprietor of the body. Just like, what is that computer machine? Very subtle machine. Or this tape recorder, or any other . . .

Nowadays so many subtle machines are manufactured, and they are working very wonderfully. Just like the television machine, it has no connection with . . . where or anything, and still exactly the photograph, the sound and everything is coming from outside, and you are seeing in your room things as they are, even with color. So it is very subtle machine undoubtedly. But the subtle machine is working not independently. They . . . there is a man who is working on the . . .

Suppose if I am put before such subtle machine, I cannot work unless I am very expert in handling such machine. So the machine is not very important. Real important is . . . importance is given to the person who is handling the machine. Similarly, this machine, this body, this is also a machine, and it has been described in the Bhagavad-gītā as a machine: yantrārūḍhāni māyayā.

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati
bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni
yantrārūḍhāni māyayā
(BG 18.61)

The meaning of this verse is īśvaraḥ the Supreme Lord, God, is sitting within the heart of all living entities. He is there within your heart, within my heart. The yoga system means to find out where is the Lord is sitting within my heart. That is perfection of yoga.

So the information we get from Bhagavad-gītā, that God is sitting within your heart. That is a fact. Not only within your heart, my heart, the animal's heart—everyone, sarva-bhūtānāṁ. Sarva-bhūtānāṁ means "Of all living entities." It is not that simply God is sitting within human body's heart, but He is sitting in everybody's heart.

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati
bhrāmayan . . .
(BG 18.61)

And He is causing the transmigration of the soul, yantrārūḍhāni, sitting on the machine of this body. So both the living entity and God is sitting within this machine.

(aside) You cannot sit cross-legged.

So within your body, within my body, and everyone's body—even an ant's body, elephant's body, tree's body, fish's body, all bodies. There are different types of body. Don't think that the lower animals—birds, bees, trees, plants, insects—they are different from us. No. They are also the same living entity, but in different dress.

Just like we are sitting, so many boys and girls, you are in different dress. But essentially your dress may be different, but you are all human beings. Similarly, there are 8,400,000 different forms of living entities. They are outward dress, the body, which is made of this five elements—earth, water, air, fire, gross five elements—and three subtle elements—mind, intelligence and ego. They are all living entities. They are not in quality as living entities; they are the same, but they are differently dressed. Therefore the learned, who know that every one of us who is a living spark, spiritual spark, we are encaged within this body.

So we should not identify ourself with the body. We must know that, "I am different from the body. Somehow or other I have been encaged within this body." This is self-realization. It is very simple thing. Self-realization means to know that, "I am not this body, but I have been put into this body because I desired." That is higher self-realization. Why? There are so many different forms of bodies. Unless there is some management, or discrimination, that "You are living entity; you should accept this body. You are living entity, you should accept this body." So unless there is such arrangement . . . just like in a train there are first-class, second-class seats, and the conductors directs, "Here is your reserved seats, sir. Come here. Sit down."

Similarly, the conductor is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is called Paramātmā, or the Supersoul. The Supersoul is there, and He is giving you, offering you different types of bodies as you desire. As you desire. If you desire the body of a human being, you get it. If you desire the body of a tiger, you get it. If you desire the body of a demigod—you get it, you can get it. And if you desire the body like Kṛṣṇa, you also get it. This is your facility. Everything is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.

yānti deva-vratā devān
pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni
mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām
(BG 9.25)

This last word, Kṛṣṇa says, mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām: if one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, then by cultivation of this Kṛṣṇa culture, devotional service, you can go back to home, back to Godhead, and you get exactly the same body as Kṛṣṇa has got. And what kind of body Kṛṣṇa has got? He has got a body, sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
(Bs 5.1)

Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. We are also lords, but not Supreme Lord. You cannot become the Supreme Lord. You are lord to a jurisdiction. You may be lord in your business, controlling so many clerks, officers, workers. You are lord in your jurisdiction. Similarly, we find a monkey is also lord in his jurisdiction. You have not seen the groups of monkeys. In India we have seen, in Vṛndāvana. Every monkey has a group, (laughter) and he has followers, about twenty, fifty, like that, and they sometimes fight. The same, just like we have groups of so-called nation: I am Indian, you are Australian, he is American, he is Canadian—the same thing.

These things are there in monkey groups also. It is not very special. The elephants also, they have got their group. If you go into the jungle you will see. The birds, different birds, they have got their groups. The crows, they have got their groups, and the swans, they have got their groups. The swan group will not act as crows. The crows are very happy by eating what you throw away, and all nasty things they will enjoy. "Birds of the same feather flock together." But the swans, you have seen: they will select a place, very nice water, with lotus flower, very nice garden. That is the place of the swans. So even in birds' life there are different groups, and they select different places, different type of atmosphere, situation. Similarly, all these living entities, 8,400,000 species, the ants also, they too gather together; this is nature's study. Similarly, human society also, there are philosophers groups, there are scientists groups, there are religious persons groups, there are hippies groups. So similarly, in everywhere you will find groups. That is natural.

So Kṛṣṇa also said that if you want to enter this group, yānti deva-vratā devān, you can do so. Deva-vratā means if you want to enter into the . . . because there are roughly three divisions: deva-tiryaṅ-narādiṣu (SB 1.2.34). Deva. There, this whole universe is divided into three groups—there may be subgroups, but three groups. One group is called the demigods, deva. And deva-tiryaṅ. Tiryaṅ means lower than animals—birds, bees, trees, aquatics, like that, tiryaṅ. And nira, narā, narādiṣu: human. As we are above these lower animals—aquatics, birds, bees, trees, plants, insects, cats, dogs, so many—so, as we are above them, similarly, we are narā, human being, similarly, there is another group: they are called demigods. The demigods' group, just like the predominating deity in the moon planet, the sun planet, Venus and others, so many innumerable planets, Brahmā-loka, Satya-loka, Jana-loka, Mahar-loka—these are information we get from Vedic literature. But Kṛṣṇa says that you can go, you can enter in any one of these groups, as you like. As you like.

So this is the opportunity. This human form of life, it is just like via media. By evolution we have come to this human form of life from lower animals, beginning from aquatics. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (Padma Purāṇa). It is a long list. There are 900,000 forms of aquatics. If you go deep into the water, and if you have means to examine how many fishes and aquatic animals are there, you can count. But in the Vedic literature it is already counted, and the exact fixed number is given—there are 900,000 forms of aquatics. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi, sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. Similarly, there are 2,000,000s forms of the trees and plants, like that. Sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati, kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakāḥ: and then insect life, there are 1,100,000 forms.

In this way there are lower, lower than the human being, there are 8,000,000 forms, and before coming to the human form of life we had to pass through this 8,000,000 types of forms. So therefore this human form of life is the junction. Now you can decide whether you are going back again to the lower animal forms of life or you are going to the higher forms of life. This is your decision; this is the junction. If you like, you can go again back to the cycle of eight . . . 8,000,000 forms of lower animals. Or you can develop your self-consciousness for higher species of life, which is called deva. Deva means demigod. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā:

yānti deva-vratā devān
pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni
mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām
(BG 9.25)

So, and last word is, He says that, "If one wants to come to Me," Kṛṣṇa says: "Then he can also come to Me." Now you make your judgment: if you want to go back to the again animal forms of life, you can go. If you want to remain as you are here, now, you can remain. If you want to go to the higher planetary systems, demigods, you can have. Just like the topmost demigod is Lord Brahmā. The demigod planets means their higher standard of life and span of life, more facilities, thousands and thousands—they are beyond our imagination. Just like Brahmā, Brahmās life is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, only one day:

ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ
(BG 8.17)

Our yuga is their millennium. So one millennium means 4,300,000s of years. So multiply it, increase it by one thousand times, that is the duration of Brahmās one day. So it is beyond our mind and speculation; still, they are within the material world. So if you like, you can go there. But the duration of life may be so long years, but there is death. Death you cannot avoid within this material world, as I was explaining yesterday, last night:

(BG 13.9)

Within this material world you cannot avoid these four principles of miserable condition: birth, death, old age and disease. That you cannot avoid, either you take your birth as Lord Brahmā or take your birth as insignificant ant. These things will go on.

But if you go back to Kṛṣṇa, as Kṛṣṇa says, mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. There is facility of going back to Kṛṣṇa, or God. You can go. So why do you not accept this cultivation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness so that you may go back again to Kṛṣṇa? This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the highest benefactory contribution to the human being. We're giving such information: simply take Kṛṣṇa consciousness cultivation, or bhakti cult, and just after you are giving up this body . . .

You are giving up this body, as soon as you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as soon as you become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, you become a candidate, pass candidate for going back to home, back to Godhead immediately. Just like I gave this example—in your country I do not know whether there is such an example. The British period in India there was ICS examination, Indian Civil Service. Similarly, nowadays the same ICS examination is going on under different name, IAS, Indian Administrative Service. Formally it was ICS, now the Indian government changed IAS. What is this IAS? You pass this examination . . .

The government requires so many officers for conducting the government, so there is an examination. High-class educated persons are allowed to sit in that examination, and I suppose thousands, they sit down, but they take the first, second, third, fourth, like that. As many officers they require, they select and take from, beginning from, according to the marks: first, second, third. In this way they collect officers.

So these officers, as soon as they are accepted by the government, they immediately they are officers. But they are first of all given a chance for being trained up. Under such-and-such officer he is trained up, and as soon as he is trained up he is given receipt, "Come on, you take charge." Similarly, as soon as you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness you become a pioused officer for going back to home, back to Godhead. As soon as. As soon as you are initiated and you execute the regulative principles as they are prescribed, you become eligible; there is no doubt.

So the only thing remains that you become trained up. During your remaining balance of life, you just become trained up how to become a perfect, pure devotee. Then as soon as you give up this body, immediately you're transferred:

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma
naiti mām etikaunteya
(BG 4.9)

Immediately. The soul is transferred immediately. Although it is far, far away, but the speed of soul is also very great. You . . . you can imagine, you can imagine the speed of air. The speed of air . . . the speed of mind is greater than the speed of the air. You can just experiment. You are sitting here—suppose your home is in London—you can immediately, within seconds you can transfer your mind to your London home, the speed is so great. Or if you have got a greater distance, immediately, the speed of mind is so great and the soul is still finer. The soul's speed is still greater, thousand times greater. So as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma
naiti mām eti
(BG 4.9)

As soon as you give up this body in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, immediately you are transferred to the Kṛṣṇa planet. Immediately, although it is . . . you cannot find out where the Kṛṣṇa planet is, millions and millions and millions of miles away. But the soul's speed is so great that it can be transferred within seconds. This is the position.

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma
naiti mām eti
(BG 4.9)

Immediately comes back. So why don't you take advantage? That is our request. If you can be transferred to Kṛṣṇaloka immediately . . .

Now you can ask, what is the advantage of Kṛṣṇaloka? The advantage is also described in the Bhagavad-gītā:

mām upetya kaunteya
duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ
(BG 8.15)

"Anyone who comes to, comes back to Me," mām upetya—mām means Me—"Then he doesn't come back again in this material world." In this material world you have to change your body, that is a fact. That is described here, tathā dehāntara-prāptir. Just like you are changing your body from childhood, from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, in this way we have got different bodies in this life, in this span of life. Similarly, after this body you will have to accept another body, tathā dehāntara-prāptir. So long you have to remain within this material world with material desires, then you have to change your body according to your desires, and there are 8,400,000 forms of bodies you have to accept. There is no guarantee, because you do not know what body you are getting next. That will depend on your work, and the according your work at the time of death, the mentality at that time will create your body next. This is the law.

yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke
tyajaty ante kalevaram
(BG 8.6)

We give up our body, as we are accustomed to think, this is our life. Naturally we shall think like that. Sometimes we think, "This is not yet finished. I have to do this, I have to . . ." Sometimes, the politicians and others, everyone thinks, so he again comes back to such a, I mean to say, favorable type of body and again executes this. This is going on. This is called material life, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). But as soon as you accept a material body, you are subjected to the four principles, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi: birth, death, old age and disease. So if you want to avoid this material inconveniences, then take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and accept a body which is suitable for living in Kṛṣṇaloka. That is the highest perfection of life.

So we are offering that facility. Don't take this movement as something bogus. It is very scientific, authorized, and the process is very easy. For cultivating Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what is needed? Very simple thing. What is that?

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
(BG 18.65)

Always think of Kṛṣṇa. Always think of Kṛṣṇa. Just like in our temple we have got Kṛṣṇa, the form of Kṛṣṇa, and you just be engaged in His devotional service. Therefore you will not forget Kṛṣṇa, the form of Kṛṣṇa. So the process is to always think of Kṛṣṇa. This Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting, this is also always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. As soon as I hear the word "Kṛṣṇa," immediately I remember Kṛṣṇa. By reading books, immediately I remember Kṛṣṇa. So many ways, the process is to remember Kṛṣṇa. Even without chanting, without going to the temple, if you can remember only Kṛṣṇa, that will do. But these things will help you to remember Kṛṣṇa. Man-manā, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa; man-manā bhava mad-bhakta. Bhakta means servant, devotee. Whatever Kṛṣṇa desires, do it. It is not very difficult.

So man-manā bhava, mad-yājī, worship Kṛṣṇa and offer respect to Kṛṣṇa. Four things. Anyone can do. It doesn't require any high education, high philosophical mind. Simply four things: always think of Kṛṣṇa, become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, offer Him respect, obeisances, and worship Him. These four things will help you. If you cannot do these four things even, then you can chant: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Very simple process, and there is no loss. Suppose you become a devotee and think of Kṛṣṇa, what is loss on your part? There is no loss.

So without any loss, if you get the greatest benediction of life, why don't you try it? This is our request. It is not difficult, there is no loss, and the gain is the greatest, saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ, the highest perfection of life. So therefore we request you that take advantage of this movement. Don't take it very trifle. It is very important movement. Try. We have got books, already published, about twenty books.

So if you are intelligent, if you want to understand Kṛṣṇa through intelligence, through scientific view, that is explained; you can do that. Or if you have no means to read books or if you have no such habit—because reading books, that requires also another qualification, studious—simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. God has given you the tongue, and you can chant and gradually improve. And if you make your life perfect in this way, then all material problems are solved in this life.

So this is our movement; try to understand, and that is our request. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotees: (offer obeisances) (break)

Guest: Why did you ask me to . . . if I could cross my legs? Why did you ask me that question?

Prabhupāda: Because this is impudency. You cannot sit down like . . . before a respectable person. This is unrespectable.

Guest: Ah, I see.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not etiquette. You do not know that?

Guest: I didn't, I didn't know it was . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to teach you. I have to teach you.

Guest: No-one told me that I am supposed to cross my legs.

Prabhupāda: Yes, just like everyone is sitting, you cannot do like that?

Guest: Oh, all right.

Prabhupāda: You are deficient. You are deficient.

Guest: Deficient?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: (indistinct) . . . I want to ask something, to ask about the philosophy . . . (indistinct)

Devotee: No.

Prabhupāda: No, no, you cannot sit properly. You can see others are sitting. Why you cannot sit?

Guest: Well, it seemed to be more comfortable at the time.

Prabhupāda: Then you can sit back side. Why you come from front side?

Guest: Well, I wanted to see you and listen to you clearly.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but then you must be following the etiquette.

Guest: Oh, I see. Well, the last time I sat, I actually blew out the candle with . . . they were going around the room . . .

Prabhupāda: Don't spoil time in this way. Now you have got any questions? The sitting is not very important.

Guest: Okay.

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is about the business of us getting back to Kṛṣṇa, to get back to Godhead where we were originally, apparently. Then if we were all there originally, way back at the beginning, why did Kṛṣṇa allow us to go away from Him?

Prabhupāda: It is not allowing. You wanted, Kṛṣṇa has given you the chance. You wanted to come here in this material world and enjoy material, so Kṛṣṇa has given you the chance. Now you are suffering, you are implicated.

Devotee (2): You are saying there that we got back to Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the original place. You have come from Kṛṣṇa; now you have to go back to Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (2): And once we're back there it's all over; we don't come back to the material form.

Prabhupāda: (aside) What is that?

Devotee: He wants to know if we go to Kṛṣṇa there is no coming back.

Prabhupāda: No, you can come back. You are free. But because you are getting . . . if you are intelligent, you are getting these experiences, perhaps you will not come back again. (laughter) Because you have got good experience if you are intelligent. The constant repetition of birth and death is not very good experience.

So if you go back to Kṛṣṇa and if you get permanent life, most probably you will not come back again. Yes. That's natural. Just like a person left his home, and throughout the whole life he's loitering, wandering from country to country, country to country. After being fatigued, if he comes back home again, he doesn't go again. That is natural. (pause)

(to guest) First of all you sit down properly, then I shall answer.

Guest: Ok. I have a friend described the Kṛṣṇa movement to me as clearly as he could. It handles very much what's inside of you, and that Christianity handles very much more of what is outside of you, and how you react to the outside world. And I'd like to know actually how Kṛṣṇa relates to Christianity in a deeper sense.

Prabhupāda: Christianity or this "nity" we are not concerned. We are concerned with the philosophy. We are not concerned with a particular type of faith. That we are not concerned.

Guest: Are you not?

Prabhupāda: No. We are concerned with the philosophy of life. So we are talking that God is there; you are there. You are part and parcel of God. In this material condition you are not happy. If you go back to home, back to Godhead, you will be happy. This is the philosophy. So this philosophy we do not know in detail whether Christianity teaches. I think every religion teaches like that, but the philosophy is this. Our proposal is, that is first-class religion which teaches the followers to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is first class. It does not matter whether it is Christianity or Muhammadanism or Buddhism or Hinduism; the fact is this. Just like if I want to return to India, I shall see which plane goes faster and safe. It doesn't matter which line is better; the better line I shall accept.

Similarly, our aim of life that we are part and parcel of God, somehow or other we are put into this material condition of life and you are suffering. Somehow or other if you go back to home, back to Godhead, and again we are situated in our original position, that is wanted. So you can accept any process which helps you to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is our propaganda. If you think Christianity is a better process, you accept it. We don't say come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if you think that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a better process, you accept it. That is up to you, yes, but the principle is this.

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo
yato bhaktir adhokṣaje
(SB 1.2.6)

We want to test a man how he has advanced in his religious life. What is that? How much he has developed his love for God. That's all. If he has developed his love for God, then we accept he is following first-class religion. But if he has developed his love for dog, that is different. We have to test like that: whether he is loving dog or he is loving God, that's all. Yes?

Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . a particle in total sits within myself, therefore it is within the realms of myself . . . (indistinct) . . . totality, as the total sits within itself, as I interpret what you say. Is that true what I say?

Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to understand.

(aside) What does he say? (laughter)

Guest (2): That it is within your power, so I am a particle, I agree. But within my particle sits the totality of the God . . .

Prabhupāda: How within the particle?

Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . said all things are within the grandeur of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Guest (2): . . . and therefore . . .

Prabhupāda: That is God's power. He can live within and without.

Guest (2): . . . within my power to help the totality.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is described in the Vedas: aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.20). God has got this gigantic universal body, and God has got another body, which is smaller than yourself. It can sit down within your body. That is called smaller than the smallest. We are smallest. God is great, but still God can become smaller than the smallest and at the same time He can become bigger than the biggest. That is God. Omnipotency.

This is called omnipotency. He can become smaller than the smallest; He can become bigger than the biggest. So there is no incongruency if God sits within you. You are a small particle. That is not impossible for God. That is possible, because it is said, "the smaller than the smallest." You may be the smallest, but He can become smaller than you. This is God's omnipotency. So there is no difficulty for God, to become smaller than yourself.

Guest (2): But the other way around, for a man to . . .

Prabhupāda: You cannot do; you are fixed up. Your position is fixed up, because you are not God. But God can become the smaller than the smallest and greater than the greatest. That is greatness. Yes?

Guest (3): How can we as mere human beings define what God is? Surely God is indefinable?

Prabhupāda: God is indefinable, but when He comes before you as He is, then it is definable. God is indefinable, that's all right. But if He is so pleased to reveal Himself, then He is definable because He is defining Himself. If you define God by the words of God, then He is definable. Otherwise He is indefinable. By your mental speculation He is indefinable, but if you define God by the definition given by God, then you can define. That is not your definition. You can repeat the definition. Just like God said:

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo
mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate
iti matvā bhajante māṁ
budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ
(BG 10.8)

He said that, "Everything emanates from Me. I am the origin of everything. So one who knows these things, he is actually learned and he becomes My devotee." So if you define God like that, "God is the origin of everything," where is your difficulty? There is no difficulty, because you are defining God by the words of God. If you manufacture any definition of God, then you cannot define. But if you take the words of God, then it is possible to define God.

This is very simple to understand. Suppose there is big man, you are trying to understand what he is. So you can speculate, that will never be perfect. But if the big man says: "I am like this. My position is like this, my bank balance is this, my business . . ." you cannot define like that. Where is the difficulty? God is indefinable, that is a fact, but when you take the definition given by God, then it is easy.

(to other guest) You have already asked. No more. No, no, no.

Guest (2): No more? One more question?

Prabhupāda: What is that? All right, what is that question? Finish

Guest (2): Well, you said that a human being could be whatever it wanted to be, right?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): Within Kṛṣṇa and within God . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): . . . in the spirit of religion.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): If I wanted to be the smaller than the smallest . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): . . . or greater than the greatest, couldn't I be?

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can.

Guest (2): Therefore isn't there part and parcel . . .

Prabhupāda: First of all, what you know about the greater? Because you want to be greater than the greatest, what is your imagination of greatest?

Guest (2): This is the point I make, is that there is no way in time where imagination really counts . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore you can become greater than the greatest as far as your imagination goes.

Guest (2): Then this is what a Kṛṣṇa person has to imagine.

Prabhupāda: Ah?

Guest (2): If they want to . . .

Prabhupāda: A Kṛṣṇa conscious person doesn't imagine anything.

Guest (2): If Kṛṣṇa is greater than the greatest . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. But Kṛṣṇa says that He is the greater than the greatest, we accept it; we don't imagine.

Guest (2): We can accept it all right, but what about a human being . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . human being, he?

Guest (2): . . . who want to be greater than the greatest or smaller than the smallest . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Guest (2): A human being has imagination, doesn't he? Doesn't he?

Prabhupāda: We're not following imagination. Why don't you understand this? We are taking the words of God. This is not my imagination.

Guest (2): No, I'm not saying it is.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): It is my imagination.

Prabhupāda: No, not . . . neither your imagination. It is the definition given by God. Therefore we accept it.

Guest (2): Why?

Prabhupāda: Why? Because we have to accept; otherwise there is no other way.

Guest (2): A human being doesn't have to accept anything.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are accepting the kicking of material nature, are you not, by your becoming older? You are accepting. When there will be death, you will be accepting. You have to accept.

Guest (2): Hmm.

Prabhupāda: By force.

Guest (2): This is a thing that bothers me. (laughter) It's by force. They have humanity ah, I agree now. I see exactly where you're coming from.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. Don't put any more questions. (laughter)

Guest (2): No more. (laughter) I'll uncross my legs. (end)