730514 - Morning Walk - Los Angeles
Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: (introducing recording) Śrīla Prabhupāda's morning walk, recorded May 14th, 1973, at Cheviot Hills Park, in Los Angeles.
Prabhupāda: The material energy, it is also coming from Kṛṣṇa. The spiritual en . . . Kṛṣṇa Himself is spiritual energy. Exactly like that is. This weather is coming from sun, but sun is covered. The weather created by sun makes himself covered; not himself covered, it is covering our eyes. Sun is not covered; my eyes are covered. Therefore material means when our consciousness is not developed. That's the meaning. It is somehow or other covered. That is material.
(aside) Where is our scientist?
They . . . the mistake of the scientist is that they do not accept two energies, material and spiritual.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.
Prabhupāda: They accept one energy. We accept also that. But they . . . defect is they are beginning from the material. That is their mistake. Just like this weather is beginning from the light, and gradually it is becoming dark. So darkest part, or the dark part, is called material. But the dark is beginning from light, not the light is beginning from dark. That is their method. They are thinking that from matter, consciousness is coming. Now consciousness is there. When it is covered, degraded, that is unconsciousness. So material means when the consciousness is forgetful of Kṛṣṇa. That is material. Material means gradual development of forgetfulness of Kṛṣṇa. That is material. And spiritual means full consciousness of Kṛṣṇa.
Is it clear? Try to understand this. Darkness is coming from light. Where the light is not visible, that is called darkness. This is not the nature of the sun, this covering, cloudy nature. That is not the . . . the nature of sun is light, but by the energy of the sun another thing is temporary created which is called mist or darkness. This is temporary. This is not permanent nature. Therefore material nature is temporary and spiritual nature is permanent. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to get out of this temporary nature and go to the spiritual nature, permanent nature. Nobody wants also this temporary nature. Nobody likes this cloudy atmosphere.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The cloudiness is created from the superior energy.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So matter is created from the superior.
Prabhupāda: Creator is one. He is always superior. Whatever is created, that is created by Him. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8): "I am the creator of everything." So bad or good—everything. Bad and good, that is your creation. Kṛṣṇa's creation: everything good. God is good. What you think bad, for God is good. Therefore we cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. He's doing something. In our consciousness it is bad, but we do not know that for Him there is no such thing as good and bad. That we do not know. Kṛṣṇa is marrying 16,000 wives; somebody's criticizing, "Oh, He's so much fond of women." But we do not see the other side, that He has got the power to expand Himself to the 16,000 forms.
Paramahaṁsa: If this mist of material nature is temporary, then why bother to disentangle oneself from something transitory?
Prabhupāda: Why do you take covering? You may, walk naked?
Prabhupāda: Why do you take covering? You know everything will be cleared after few hours. Why do you cover?
Paramahaṁsa: It is dangerous now.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, why do you take this step to avoid this?
Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: It's uncomfortable. It's not natural.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the Māyāvāda theory, that everything will come automatically—why do you bother? That is nonsense.
Karandhara: They will not be able to be so philosophical in their next lives when they're a dog.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?
Karandhara: The Māyāvādīs will not be able to be so philosophical in their next lives when they're dogs or cats.
Karandhara: They have to have a human body in order to enjoy that philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Their philosophy is that there is only one—God. So cats and dogs, that is God's līlā, His . . . that is their rascal philo . . . God is making pastimes, līlā, by becoming a dog. That is their rascal philosophy. Daridra-nārāyaṇa, the Vivekananda's philosophy. Nārāyaṇa has become daridra, poor. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
So with chemists we have no quarrel if they begin from light. They're beginning from darkness. That is our contention. We say: "Begin from light." And they say: "No, begin from darkness." Because they're in darkness. One who is in the darkness, from darkness if he goes to light, he thinks that the darkness is the beginning.
Paramahaṁsa: In comparison, they always compare. They always compare . . .
Prabhupāda: No, no comparison. It is practical. Suppose you have been in darkness for millions of years, and when you come to the light you think that, "Oh, from darkness the light has come." Light, when it becomes dimmed, that is darkness. Not that darkness, light has come.
Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: Darkness cannot exist without light.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Or in the light there is no darkness. When the light is dimmed, that is darkness. Similarly, when Kṛṣṇa consciousness is dimmed, that is material.
Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: (referring to ground) It's very wet.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's quite wet.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We shall go on there. After awaken, when one becomes tired, he comes to sleep. Or the life, when it is somehow or other disturbed, sleepless comes. When at night we sleep and get up in the morning, it is not that from sleeping condition this life condition has come. I slept some reason or I was in life condition, but I slept, again I am coming to life—that is their philosophy. Just like a child, baby, comes from the womb of the mother. From the day he comes out of the womb, if he thinks, "Now, from this day my life has begun," that is not the fact. He's eternal, but he was constructing his body within the womb of the mother, therefore he was unconscious. Now, as soon as the body is finished, he comes out and again comes to consciousness.
Paramahaṁsa: And again falls asleep at death.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā: bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Once he comes to awareness, and again he's unconscious. Just like this flower, it has come to now consciousness. Again it will dry and die, but the seeds again will grow. Again it will flower. This is material life. And spiritual life means flower only. That's all.
I have got some nice shirt buttons somebody has given me. I shall never put on shirt, neither our students. I think we shall sell it.
Prabhupāda: What is called? Button? Is it not button? Shirt-fixing? Collar-fixing?
Paramahaṁsa: Is it a pin or something like this?
Prabhupāda: Yes, like that.
Prabhupāda: Gold. Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Not cuff links. No, those are . . .
Prabhupāda: Aha, cuff also.
Paramahaṁsa: Oh, jaya. Do you like I buy from you?
Paramahaṁsa: I give you my soul? I give you my soul for the cuff links?
Prabhupāda: No, you take it and sell it.
The last four days this stools are not cleared.
Paramahaṁsa: Man's best friend.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Because he has no knowledge who is the best friend. According to the quality, the friend is selected.
Karandhara: And one is known by the company he keeps.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāranaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). The best friend will lead him to take birth in that family. He'll help him next birth. Because he'll always think of dog, so next birth, dog. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvam (BG 8.6). At the time of death, if you are attached to something then you'll think of it, and next birth is that.
Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if one's next life is achieved by one's consciousness, how is it one cannot remember one's previous life?
Paramahaṁsa: If the next life is achieved by this consciousness, in this life, how is it that we cannot remember the previous lives?
Prabhupāda: Do you remember everything what you did last year or yesterday?
Paramahaṁsa: No, I don't.
Prabhupāda: So that is your nature. You forget.
Prabhupāda: Something there is possibility of. Something . . . somebody forgets more, somebody forgets little. But the forgetfulness is there.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's the platform of material nature.
Prabhupāda: Yah just like stealing. Somebody's pickpocket. Somebody's dacoit. The stealing is there.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When we sleep, when we dream, are we carried away by the three subtle elements?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When we dream, sleeping, are we carried away by the three subtle elements mind, intelligence . . .
Prabhupāda: You are carried always by nature under different condition. You're simply being carried by the nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). You are under the grip of material nature. Just like . . .
Prabhupāda: No. Pulling the ear. Just like . . . (laughter)
Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: By our desires, we are pulled?
Prabhupāda: No. You desire. "Here it is." That's all. It is not willingly, because you are willing desires against Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore she's giving chance, "Come on here. Take stool. Become hog. You wanted to eat hog, er, stool. Come on." This is going on.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this also shows the eternal nature of the spirit soul? The eternality?
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is not eternal.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because I'm conscious.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore your consciousness is being revived. Come to the standard of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he'll be happy. That is our business. His consciousness is being misled by so many ways. Therefore we are trying to give him the standard consciousness: "Come to this point, you'll be happy."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: How to prove that the soul is eternal?
Prabhupāda: That is the first lesson. You do not understand? You are a child, now you're a grown-up boy. Where is your childhood? Where is that body? Huh? That body does not exist, but you are existing. That means you are eternal. Body has changed, but you have not changed. Circumstances has changed, but you have not changed. This is the proof of eternity. What do you want more?
You may remember that, "I did yesterday these things." Today you do not . . . I remember yesterday's activities. But your body of yesterday is not this body. Do you admit or not? As a scientist, the body has changed already. He cannot say that 1973, 12th May, is today. You cannot say. It is already changed. But you remember everything of yesterday. That is eternity. The body has changed, but you remember everything. Therefore you are eternal, body's not eternal. This is the proof. Simple proof. Even a child can understand. But they'll not understand. That is the difficulty.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want some more.
Prabhupāda: What is that more? It is a simple fact. Just like yesterday, day before yesterday, day before that we saw that stool. We therefore criticize. You are seeing for the last three days the stool, it is not cleansed. But day before yesterday's body, yesterday's body is not this body. And my body has changed, but I remember. Therefore I'm eternal. This is the proof. Eternity means I'm soul. My body's changing, but I'm not changing. Just like I'm old man. I sometimes think, "Oh, I was jumping like this, and now I cannot jump." So my body has changed. But I want to jump. But I cannot do it. So that jumping propensity is my eternal propensity. But due to this body, I cannot do it. This is eternity.
Karandhara: They would say that, according to their observations, that nature of eternity only lasts one body.
Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness because, as this body . . . that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: tathā dehāntaram (BG 2.13). As this body's changing in my experience, similarly, there's another change.
Karandhara: Well, actually, they're able to observe this change, but they can't observe that change.
Prabhupāda: But you cannot observe . . . your rascal eyes are so imperfect, you cannot observe so many things. That does not mean science. Why don't you admit your imperfection of senses? You first of all admit the imperfection of senses. You cannot see. You cannot experience. That, does it mean that is science? So many dogs, they cannot understand what is the law of nature. Does it mean that nature does not exist? Why do you think your sense are perfect? First of all, admit that you're the most imperfect.
Karandhara: They'll admit that, but they say the way of becoming perfect is through objective information and experience.
Prabhupāda: No. Way of becoming perfect is different. You cannot become perfect by your imperfect thinking. How you can become perfect?
Paramahaṁsa: Another question, Prabhupāda, that could be raised is that, "If the soul is eternal and passes through one body after another, how is it not possible that it accepts, let's say, three, four, five bodies and then dies?"
Prabhupāda: You are accepting millions of body and then die. That you do not know. I say that your body of yesterday is not of this body. So similarly, if we live for one hundred years, how many bodies you are changing every moment? Just calculate.
Prabhupāda: Ha? Thirteen? Why thirteen?
Karandhara: Every seven years.
Prabhupāda: No, no, every seven years . . . I say every second. Every second the blood corpuscle are changing. Is it not?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Then you're chang . . . soon as the blood corpuscle changes, you change your body. You do not know the science. So how many millions of birth you are changing even this experience?
Karandhara: That is their stumbling block. They say they want to be able to observe everything with their imperfect senses.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their folly, foolishness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the scientific terminology, the eternality of the soul can be compared with the conservation of energy?
Prabhupāda: There is no question of conservation of energy. It is energy. It is always existing. If you say that is conservation of energy, then . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. The definition of the conservation of energy is the energy cannot be created nor destroyed. That means it is eternal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that we admit. Original energy of Kṛṣṇa, that is existing with Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is eternal. Therefore all His energies are eternal.
Karandhara: So the living entity is also eternal.
Prabhupāda: Just like the sun. Sun, the energy heat and light. If sun is eternal, heat and light, eternal. Hmm. What is that?
Karandhara: They say if energy cannot be created or destroyed, then life cannot be created or destroyed.
Prabhupāda: We say that. Life is eternal. It is not created nor destroyed. It is covered only for the time. Just like I'm eternal, but last night I was covered by dreaming, sleeping. So I say "yesterday" and "today." This is my position. I'm eternal, but because last night I was covered by dreaming, therefore I say "yesterday" and "today."
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if material nature is the absence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then where is material? I've heard you say that once before . . .
Prabhupāda: There is no material. Yes? If you continue Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there's nothing material. Just like when we offer this flower in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is it material?
Prabhupāda: You still can accept anything material? No. So how it becomes? It was material in the tree and it becomes spiritual? No. It is spiritual. So long I was thinking it is meant for my enjoyment, that is material. As soon as I take it for Kṛṣṇa's enjoyment, it is spiritual.
Paramahaṁsa: So actually this entire world is spiritual.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we want, that engage everything engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. This will be spiritual world.
Paramahaṁsa: So we can also appreciate Kṛṣṇa's creation in that light? For example, this is very beautiful because it is Kṛṣṇa's.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We realize that. We don't say . . . just like Māyāvādī philosophy says mithyā. Jagat mithyā: "This world is false." We don't say it. We don't say jagat mithyā.
Devotee: This material nature is just one energy of Kṛṣṇa acting in a certain way?
Prabhupāda: Why shall I say . . .? Kṛṣṇa has created so many nice things for His enjoyment, why shall I say mithyā? Suppose if you create nice house, very good apartment, and you call me, "Just see." And if I say, "It is all mithyā . . ."
Paramahaṁsa: It's also an offense. Because I can't enjoy it . . .
Prabhupāda: (laughing) Then how much depressed you'll be. Let's say I brought this friend, and this rascal is saying, "This is mithyā."
Karandhara: Sour grapes.
Prabhupāda: That is explained that asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te. Asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te jagad āhur anīśvara (BG 16.8). These rascals, these demon,s they say like that, that "This is asatya, this is untruth. There is no cause. There is no īśvara." These are the demoniac declaration. If Kṛṣṇa is fact, His creation is fact. His energy is fact. Why shall I say false? We don't say it is false. The Māyāvādīs say it is false.
Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: If someone looks at the Deity of Kṛṣṇa and thinks it's only stone or wood, for him it's still material?
Prabhupāda: That is his ignorance. How it can be material? The stone is also Kṛṣṇa's energy. Just like electricity energy is there everywhere. The electrician know how to utilize it, how to take electricity. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, even in the stone.
The devotees know how to utilize stone to appreciate Kṛṣṇa. The devotees know. The rascal, they do not know. Because the devotee has no other view than Kṛṣṇa. Why stone should be without Kṛṣṇa? Here is Kṛṣṇa. That is real oneness. And the Māyāvādī philosopher, they say oneness, but divide: "This is stone. This is not Kṛṣṇa." Why second? Why you bring another thing?
Devotee: Good and bad, evil and . . .
Devotee (2): Is it so for a Kṛṣṇa conscious man that Kṛṣṇa is as much in the stone as in the Deity?
Paramahaṁsa: Just as much?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not?
Paramahaṁsa: But we order mūrtis all the way from India. We are ordering mūrtis all the way from India
Prabhupāda: That is stated that, "Everything is in Me, but I'm not there." This is acintya-bheda . . .
- mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ
- . . . avyakta-mūrtinā
- mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni
- nāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ
- (BG 9.4)
Everything is Kṛṣṇa, but you cannot worship this bench as Kṛṣṇa. That is rascaldom.
Devotee: Kṛṣṇa says: "Worship Me in this way."
Just like the sunshine. That is also sun. Is it not? But you cannot say, when the sunshine is in the room, you cannot say: "The sun is my room." This is called acintya-bhedābheda.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Acintya-bheda . . .?
Prabhupāda: Acintya-bhedābheda, simultaneously one and different.
Paramahaṁsa: But still you said one can see Kṛṣṇa within the stone.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not?
Paramahaṁsa: And one can worship Him within the stone or within everything.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We worship everything. We worship everything, see Kṛṣṇa everywhere. We don't see the tree; we see Kṛṣṇa's energy. Therefore the tree's also worshipable, because Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's energy both are worshipable. Therefore we say Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare means Kṛṣṇa's energy. We worship everything. In our childhood we are taught by our parents, if there is small grain and if it is struck on the feet, we shall pick it up and touch on the forehead.
We are taught like this, how to see everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. We cannot therefore see anything wasted, anything misused. Why you are preaching? Why we are after so many rascals? That his life is being misused. Let him give some enlightenment. This is our mission. Or let him go to hell.
Just like Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, they're engaged in meditation or in the Himalaya, but we have come to Los Angeles. Why? This is our mission. "Oh, these things . . . these people are being misused under māyā. Let him gain some enlightenment." This is our mission. We are teaching them how to utilize everything for Kṛṣṇa, how to understand Kṛṣṇa in everything. That is our mission. See Kṛṣṇa in everything. Yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra. Everything is there in Bhagavad-gītā. Why don't you read? Sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati, yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra (BG 6.30): "Anyone who sees Me everywhere" and sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati . . . "And everything in Me, he's perfect."
Karandhara: Prabhupāda, we should return to the car.
Prabhupāda: All right. Yo māṁ mayi paśyati . . .
The karmīs, they are thinking, "Everything for me." The jñānīs, they are thinking that "Why shall I be implicated in these material things?" And we say that there is nothing material. Dovetail everything with Kṛṣṇa. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said:
- māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa
- bhakti-yogena sevate
- sa guṇān samatītyaitān
- brahma-bhūyāya kalpate
- (BG 14.26)
"Anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he's immediately promoted to the transcendental platform, Brahman." He becomes Brahman. Now, somebody may say: "Oh, we see he has got the same body. How he has become Brahman?" And how Kṛṣṇa says: "Yes, he has already become Brahman"? How to adjust?
Paramahaṁsa: Like the flower.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The same thing. Yes. As soon as everything is understood in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20) state. That is liberated state. Everything is created by Kṛṣṇa. Everything is meant for Kṛṣṇa. Everything should be engaged for Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness life. That is perfect life. Somebody asked me, "Why you have come to this country?" It is not your country. I've not come to your country, I've come to Kṛṣṇa's country. (laughter)
Devotee: We are trespassing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why shall I come to your country. I've come to Kṛṣṇa's country.
Śukadeva: Prabhupāda, there are many impersonalists in Seattle. We have many universities, and I'd like to go there and try and defeat them. But sometimes I forget . . . I cannot remember the scriptures. So what would be the best clue to always defeat them?
Prabhupāda: Well, if you understand the philosophy without scripture, you can convince them. You can give so many examples.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The weather is getting worse, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Karandhara: It will get worse when you leave, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: When I will . . . it will get better as soon as I go away.
Karandhara: No. No.
Prabhupāda: It will get . . . that is natural. It will not stay. But I'm not going out for this weather, don't misunderstand me. My physicians asked me, therefore . . . I'm accustomed to this . . .
Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: . . . all kinds of weather. (end)