740327 - Conversation - Bombay
Prabhupāda: So in the beginning, before the creation, God is existing; and after the creation, when the creation is annihilated, He will be existing. This is called transcendental position.
Pañcadraviḍa: Purport: The position of the Lord is always transcendental, because the causal and effectual energies required for the creation . . . (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . before creating this shirt, it was imperson. There was no hand, there was no neck, there was no body. The same cloth. But the tailor, according to the body, made a covering of this hand and this looks like a hand. This covering of the chest looks like a chest. Therefore, the impersonal means the material covering. Otherwise spirit soul is person. Just like you go to the tailor, according to your body the tailor will cut a coat. This coat, ingredients of the coat, the cloth, that is imperson. But it is made like a person, covering of the person. In other words, the spirit soul is person as much as God is also person. Imperson means the covering. Try to understand. The covering is impersonal, not the living being. He is covered. He is not imperson. He is person. Very simple example. The coat, shirt, is imperson, but the man who is putting on coat and shirt, he is not imperson. He is person. So how God can be imperson? The material energy is imperson. That is explained . . .
(aside) . . . that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā:
- mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ
- jagad avyakta-mūrtinā
- (BG 9.4)
This jagad is avyakta, imperson. That is also energy of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, He said: "I am expanded in the impersonal form." That impersonal feature is Kṛṣṇa's energy. So the material covering is impersonal, but the spirit soul or Supersoul is personal. Any question on this, it is very intricate question, anyone? If there is any difficulty to understand? (break)
Bhava-bhūti: . . . because I have heard so many of these so-called yogis and svamis preaching in English about Gītā or this and that, but they cannot explain, they have not even an inkling . . .
Prabhupāda: No, no, how they can explain?
Bhava-bhūti: They don't have an inkling.
Prabhupāda: They cannot touch even Bhagavad-gītā. They have no qualification.
Bhava-bhūti:: They have no understanding.
Prabhupāda: Their speaking of Bhagavad-gītā is artificial.
Prabhupāda: They cannot speak because the real qualification, as it is stated in the Bhagavad, bhakto 'si. One must be a devotee, then he can touch what is Bhagavad-gītā.
Bhava-bhūti: Even in Māyāpur, when we went to visit that time Śrīdhara Svāmī"s asrama . . .
Prabhupāda: Mmm, mmm.
Bhava-bhūti: . . . and he spoke something in English, some other man spoke in English. They cannot explain like you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You are the only one, that when you speak this knowledge it becomes immediately enters into the ear and into the heart, and then it is realized.
Prabhupāda: Maybe (laughs).
Indian man: Jaya. Jaya Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Viśākhā, you think also like that?
Viśākhā: Without a doubt.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa
Indian woman: Hum Shimla gaye. Hum to town me aise hi thoda ghum rahe the, to waha thoda thak gaye the, rest karne lag gaye. Idhar Brahmananda Swami, do hi to the, bas thoda lecture shuru ho gaya. Abhi baithe to kehne lage - kaun hai sannyasi maharaj, ye-wo. Bas batein chalti-chalti, kiske follower hai? Ye A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada ji ke hai. Kaha, ye kya, bhakti . . . abhi minto ke andar itna jan waha ikattha ho gaya, ke bas ye log apni-apni baat baat to kar rhe the lekin un sab ke daant Brahmananda Swami je ne aise khatte kar diye, tab wo itne please, request, sorry . . . ye wo karne lage ki humne jo apke samne kuch bhi kaha hai, hum knowledge nahi rakhte, humko shama karna aur hum ye chahte hai ke aap humare yaha ake program dijiye. Humare paas to time hi nhi tha, hum ek din to rahe hai waha lekin wo itne icchuk the ki abhi humare yaha zarur program rakhiye, humko . . . jo apne knowledge pai hai, hum bhi chahte hai ki hum bhi usko grahan kare aur humare bacche, humare ye Shimla log, sab usko prapt kare. Yaha tak humne . . . ek uncle hai mere waha, unko keh kar ayi hun ki waha ek church hai bilkul top ke upar. Maine bola ki koi lene wala na ho to uski baatchit karke rakhna, phir baat karenge ake. To unko keh kar hi aye hai. Wo church agar mil jaye to bahut . . . (We had gone to Shimla and as we were taking a tour of the city, we became very tired. Thus we sat down to rest while Brahmananda Swami started a lecture. Immediately people started asking - who is this sannyāsi Mahārāja, whose follower is he etc. I told them that he is the disciple of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. Within minutes, a huge crowd gathered and they started challenging him with various questions but Brahmananda Swami defeated them so expertly that they had to beg forgiveness from him. They admitted their ignorance and asked him to organize a program in Shimla so that everyone including their children could receive the knowledge that Brahmananda Swami possessed. I even went to the extent of requesting my uncle to negotiate with the owners of a dilapidated church on a hilltop so that we can try to acquire it in the future. If we can get that church, it would be great . . .)
Bhava-bhūti:: We can tell that you are the only one who is speaking the real knowledge because you have created disciples that follow that knowledge, that follow the injunctions of the sastras. The others could not do that. When I visited Hṛṣīkeśa, they did not want to allow me to sleep in the asramas. We have to get a special police permission.
Bhava-bhūti: All foreigners. All foreigners. Because Maharishi and Bal Yogi and all of them, all of their disciples have created such a disturbance. They bring this marijuana, they bring liquor, someone was caught with gun, big guns. All kinds of disturbance. Walking with no clothes in public, this and that. So many disturbance.
Bhava-bhūti: In Hrisikesa, Hardwar.
Bhava-bhūti: So they have become so upset with the foreigners, that any foreigner who comes, he must get a police statement from the captain that he can come to stay in the asrama, special permission.
Prabhupāda: Which asrama ? What is that asrama ?
Devotee: Which asrama ?
Bhava-bhūti: Any asrama. Gītā Bhavan . . .
Bhava-bhūti: . . . Swarg, anywhere on Swarg Asrama or in Hṛṣīkeśa, you have to get a special permission. That Gita Bhavan, that is Paramatma Niketan, all of it, you have to get a special permission. I stayed up to 11:30 at night trying to see the police captain to get a permission to stay in the asrama. They were going to make me sleep in the street. Because all the foreigners, all these bogi yogis, their foreign disciples have caused so much disturbance. But none of your disciples have done that. All of your disciples follow the injunctions of sastra. Therefore, we can understand that what you're speaking is being realized in the heart because it's creating real devotees. Where the others cannot create devotees. They can only create big bank balance.
Indian woman: Hum is baar Kumbh ke mele par gaye the, humne apna ek program sabne milkar kiya hai. Kabhi sab jate hai to bahut accha program hone wala tha. Bahut kuch, bahut badhiya advertisement ho jani lekin kuch minister gaye huye the. Hum jo gaye the, hum to do-tin devotee the jo gaye. (We went to the Kumbha-melā this time and collectively organised our own program. It could have been very nice with wonderful advertisements but some ministers were present there at that time. We were only a couple of devotees . . .) (break)
Prabhupāda: So, just like I have got my consciousness and I feel pains and pleasure, you feel pains and pleasure. (break) But unfortunately I am thinking this is American pains and pleasure, this is Indian pains, and pains and pleasure is the same. It is neither American nor African. Pains and pleasure is the same. So as soon as this consciousness, that I am feeling American pains, American pleasure, as soon as this is over, then we come to the original consciousness. Because consciousness cannot be American or African. If I pinch you, the pain felt by you is the same when I pinch the African. So therefore the consciousness is the same. Artificially we are thinking that American consciousness, African consciousness. Actually that is not the position. Simply this misunderstanding has to be cleared out. That is called ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Is it not a fact?
Bhava-bhūti: Oh yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's a fact.
Prabhupāda: The consciousness of feeling pains and pleasure, can it be American or Indian?
Prabhupāda: It is the same. Artificially we are thinking it is American pain or it is Indian pain. That is artificial. This artificial covering has to be removed. Then we come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Feelings, consciousness is not American, African or Indian. Consciousness is the same. When you feel hungry, is that Americans feel a different way hungry and the African feels in a different way? So hungry, appetite is the same. Now, if you say there is American appetite and this is Indian appetite, that is artificial. So when you do not go to the artificial platform, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is explained in Narada Pancaratra,
- tat-paratvena nirmalam
- hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-
- sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate
- (CC Madhya 19.170)
When we become free from these artificial designations, American consciousness, Indian consciousness, African consciousness, there is no such thing, this is artificial. Even bird and beast, they also feel consciousness, pains and pleasure. Just like when there is scorching heat, you feel some pain. Is that American, Indian or African? Scorching heat is (laughing) every, feeling . . . if you say that I am feeling scorching heat American way . . . Kya ji, aise ho sakta hai kya? (Tell me, is it possible?) . . . simply these are artificial. Everything is depending on consciousness, everything depending on consciousness. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the original standard consciousness. So we have given the name Kṛṣṇa consciousness very, what is called, thoughtfully, that original consciousness is Kṛṣṇa con . . . (break) (end)