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740327 - Morning Walk - Bombay

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

740327MW-BOMBAY - March 27, 1974 - 42:14 Minutes

Dr. Patel: . . . first thing they did was the tower.

Prabhupāda: Why they could not make otherwise? Why like a bird?

Indian man (1): God only knows.

Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa knows.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa knows. He has imitated Kṛṣṇa's plan. Kṛṣṇa has made so many birds. So you cannot make any other size. That is the version of the Vedānta. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). The original idea is from Kṛṣṇa. You simply, you can imitate. That's all. Just like there are so many imitation birds. Similarly, everything is imitation. Everything is imitation.

Dr. Patel: Yes. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavata you get so many stories wherein all devas and kinnaras, they come in their own planes and stand there with the planes. How could they stand with their planes down there?

Prabhupāda: That is much improved. This is not so much improved.

Dr. Patel: And in good old days when the planes were not in existence, the Westerners thought that these were all fairy stories.

Prabhupāda: That we are also thinking. "There is no Kṛṣṇa. There is no . . . (indistinct) . . ." We are also thinking. (chuckles) Although we are big, big leaders, we are simply imitators of the Westerners. That's all. Western people are our father and mother. That is our modern Indian . . . now, Western people are drinking wine, now the government is drinking. Gandhi stopped it, but "No, the Western people do it." Unless they drink wine, they cannot be very . . . they work . . .

Dr. Patel: Here they are all now alco . . .

Prabhupāda: So Western people, Western civilization has become the father and mother of India.

Dr. Patel: They idolize.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: But they don't drink so much, I think, these people.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: These boys in Western . . .

Prabhupāda: They are now introducing. Now, when it is introduced, they'll be accustomed. They'll drink day and night. Don't bother.

Dr. Patel: I have not got that experience. When I was a student in London University, the boys there, they drink, but not that much as they drink here. They are abusing it.

Prabhupāda: Every . . . every few steps there is a wine shop.

Dr. Patel: Now, every few steps . . . no, you can have that in your own home here. You give the minister ten thousand rupees of bribes for a license to . . . (break) . . . serve in your home. That is . . . it has been . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . four things which we are prohibiting: illicit sex . . .

Dr. Patel: Wine drinking, meat-eating.

Prabhupāda: Yes, intoxication, meat-eating and gambling. So these four things are encouraged by the government. Gambling, that, what is that? Lottery.

Devotees: Maharashtrian Lottery.

Prabhupāda: And meat-eating: beef shop.

Girirāja: M.A.S.K.O.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Girirāja: The government has big meat distribution . . .

Dr. Patel: No, they are . . .

Prabhupāda: And prostitution means contraceptive.

Girirāja: Birth control.

Prabhupāda: Prostitution and illicit sex, illicit sex. (aside) Don't touch me.

Dr. Patel: Who is the best, these contraceptives?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: The boys and the girls in the colleges.

Prabhupāda: See. They're encouraging, encouraging these things. So why they will like? Now . . . therefore our position is that they want to drive us. The whole plan is they do not want this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement to stay here.

Dr. Patel: How can they drive you? I don't agree with you on that . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, they are trying their best. They wanted to break the temple and drive away.

Dr. Patel: They, temple they broke . . .

Indian man (1): . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (1): But self-discipline alone is a . . . nobody.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the plan. And now no sanction of temple. That was the ple that, "It is temporary. It should be broken." And when we asked for permanent approval, "No sanction." This is clear.

Dr. Patel: Have you got the . . . have you received the . . . renewed the temporary permit.

Girirāja: Well, we've applied.

Prabhupāda: Every year we have to apply.

Dr. Patel: Yes, every year it should be applied.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Dr. Patel: That is the law. I give this warning.

Prabhupāda: That is the law of breaking temple. And when we want, that is the law, "No sanction." Eguleo bero-bero, picholeo nirbonsher beta. (If you step forward, then they will ask you to get out and if you stay behind, they will call you a son of a worthless family.) This is our position. If we go forward, then we are culprit. And if we remain backward, then we are culprit. Both ways. Iske isse malum hota hai je ye sab plan hi hai hum log ko drive karne ka. (From this we can understand that it is their plan to drive us out.)

Dr. Patel: Yes. Now, cup of the sin of these people is now filling up, and Kalki-avatāra must come out. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . gentlemen. Otherwise, how they could reign for eight hundred years? At that time Hindus were very strong. They were rigid. And there were many native princes. Still, they ruled over India for eight hundred years. As soon as the Aurangzeb showed his bigotry, it was failed. Muslim . . . as they're advertised, Muslims are not like that.

Dr. Patel: They were good to Bengal.

Mākhanalāl: They have very much reputation for violence . . .

Prabhupāda: No. In Vṛndāvana we have got. So all the Muslim emperors, they contributed.

Dr. Patel: But that way, in Vṛndāvana you have got some signs that some of the Arabs have become saints, Hindu saints. Two or three Arabs, they have got very big tombs there in Vṛndāvana. Arab saints. They came to Surat and then they, I mean . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . our calculation is if the Muslims were . . .

Dr. Patel: So bad as that.

Prabhupāda: . . . so bad, then how they could rule for eight hundred years?

Dr. Patel: That is right, but they were bad enough. They were . . .

Prabhupāda: Bad enough . . . your, our so-called Hindus are worst enough.

Dr. Patel: That's all right. But they were bad.

Indian man (1): Because devotees of Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: If they were bad enough, we are now worst enough. We are now introducing meat-eating and drinking and . . . we are worst.

Devotee: Prabhupāda, in the newspaper the other day it said that India government wants to start exporting beef.

Dr. Patel: Beef. Because they want to . . . yes, you read it. They want to be . . . slaughter the surplus cows because they are not yielding enough milk. There was very big article I read wherein they said that not only the milk is important, but the cow dung is as fertilizer in the fields much more than the modern day . . . (break) No? (break)

Prabhupāda: But why it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, go-rakṣya (BG 18.44)? Why not another animal rakṣya?

Dr. Patel: Bāgha-rakṣya koro.

Prabhupāda: Why it is specially mentioned, go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya?

Dr. Patel: They are doing bāgha-rakṣya here, not go-rakṣya. All the tigers are getting much . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . crying like jackals, they are.

Indian man (1): Yes.

Devotee: You saw them, Dr. Patel?

Dr. Patel: Yes. I call them bhūta-vat This is bhūta-vat. You know? (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . animals. Why like animals?

Dr. Patel: That's right. Everyone is very much . . . (indistinct) . . . an animal excepting the human being . . . (break)

Bhava-bhūti: . . . Balavanta's election campaign. After a fired-up speech by Balavanta, one lady called up and said: "Why do you keep referring to the American people as animals?" So she was so offended.

Dr. Patel: She became violent. So all violent, they are animals. (break)

Prabhupāda: They are good.

Dr. Patel: They are good, and God is serving best. Last, last śloka he recites from Bhagavad-gītā. Ye . . . su balo.

Indian man (1):

yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo
yatra pārtho dhanur-dharaḥ
tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtir
dhruvā nītir matir mama
(BG 18.78)

Dr. Patel: They have got śrī, bhūti . . .

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has started from there. So they are very fortunate.

Indian man (1): Otherwise . . . last birth, they must have had the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise, they . . . in one year they . . . not that actually, you see, Kṛṣṇa . . .

Dr. Patel: They have got śrī, dhruvā, nīti . . .

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Not the loafers, daridra-nārāyaṇa. They have manufactured the rascal word "daridra-nārāyaṇa." Daridra-nārāyaṇa, this Nārāyaṇa, that Nārāyaṇa. Not pure Nārāyaṇa. Mixing something—this Nārāyaṇa, that Nārāyaṇa.

Indian man (1): They must have something God, you see. Or they cannot be prosperous, whatever you may say.

Satsvarūpa: No, but Prabhupāda, you explained we were experiencing all this prosperity like zeroes. Just so many zeroes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If they do not take seriously to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then this prosperity will not exist.

Bhava-bhūti: It is already degrading.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: No, but really these people are, I mean, in their heart superior than others.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Because their method of working is more honest in a way. If they get money, we get jealous of them, because . . .

Prabhupāda: No, they . . . they are feeling nationally. They are feeling nationally. Yes.

Dr. Patel: Even though it is a nation of hodgepodge people from Europe, but still they are . . .

Prabhupāda: So therefore they have said: "United Nation."

Dr. Patel: Still, they are . . . (indistinct)

Indian man (1): United States.

Prabhupāda: United States. Yes. (japa) (break)

Dr. Patel: . . . over-clever or whatever you may call, but the American would be outwitted by a Gujarati bāṇiyā if he has got the same money, same, I mean, freedom of business and same facility to work. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . the plan is to drive away the Gujaratis from Africa. (laughter) Yes. The Britishers are afraid. The Britishers are afraid that if the Indians, they are allowed to remain here, they will not be able to exploit the Africans.

Dr. Patel: All Indians and all Gujarati bāṇiyās who settled in Africa, one and all are multi-millionaires.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . also.

Dr. Patel: But they have migrated to London now. They are very well . . . people from England . . . I mean, Africa, especially East Africa, Kenya, Uganda . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . their own house in London. Every Indian. (break) Englishmen, they haven't got their own house.

Dr. Patel: No, Englishmen are very much afraid of business with . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . former purchaser, they sell to the higher bidders.

Dr. Patel: Yes. Very cunning. Very cunning people.

Bhava-bhūti: I think there is some complaint also here in Maharashtra, some plan not to give any more Gujaratis job. Just simply . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: That is good.

Dr. Patel: (heavy wind noise) And then so many, they . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . clean. Although there is no machine.

Dr. Patel: Because the sea comes here, right. Here is the water line, high water line, high tide.

Prabhupāda: And washes everything. That is God's grace. Without machine, they keep it clean.

Indian man (2): Without taking any charge.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . same thing is happening here in a different edition, that's all.

Indian man (2): All are nationalized. Only men and women can . . .

Dr. Patel: They're also nationalized. Man is nationalized.

Prabhupāda: We consider according to our position in this material world, "This is good," "This is bad." This is simply a mental concoction. Everything is bad. Only Kṛṣṇa is good. You are criticizing Russians. Why do you . . .? What is the . . . what is your state of . . .?

Dr. Patel: Russians are good people. They were a very good people. That is why . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . rascal . . . for some time, another rascal will come, another rascal . . .

Dr. Patel: Russians, technically, they are Russis. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . advertise, but do you know?

Dr. Patel: I know it.

Prabhupāda: I know it very well.

Dr. Patel: No, no, no. It's a fact. I have read the history.

Prabhupāda: Well, you have read history—I have gone there personally.

Dr. Patel: Going there and reading history is something different. You have seen only at a particular time, but . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . I was on the airport, they called police because they got . . . they saw one Bhagavad-gītā in my bags. You see? This is the position.

Dr. Patel: They are, they are translating Bhagavad-gītā in their own universities now. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . may be because it was Bhagavad-gītā, they stopped me.

Dr. Patel: This is a phase of the government. The government is not the people. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . people everywhere good.

Dr. Patel: But the Russians are really good.

Prabhupāda: Only the . . . people everywhere, all over the world, they are all good. Only the leaders make them bad. That's all. That is my opinion. Misleaders. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). The so-called śreṣṭha, leaders, they . . . just like in India. When Gandhi was there it was prohibition, and now there is wine shop every step. It is due to the leaders. People . . . people, what the innocent people, what they'll do?

Dr. Patel: You are talking of this, but I am the knower of the private character of so many . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Why you know? Everyone knows.

Dr. Patel: They have got so many women outside, and some of them want every day new one. All sorts of rascals they are. (break) Raja should rule, and not these . . .

Prabhupāda: Asaṁskṛtāḥ kriyā-hīnāḥ (SB 12.1.40).

Dr. Patel: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Everyone, all people, not only the ministers.

Dr. Patel: But yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad itaro janaḥ (BG 3.21).

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they have become śreṣṭha. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Blind men have become the leader of the blind men. That is the difficulty. And if you want to open their eyes, they will say: "No sanction for temple. Get out." Murkhayopadeṣo hi prokapāya na śāntaye. This is the position.

Bhava-bhūti: It's an excellent preaching point, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bhava-bhūti: Christianity was taught to the publicans and the beggars, but Kṛṣṇa taught originally bhakti-yoga to the kings.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they were cultured.

Dr. Patel: According to the Upaniṣads, you know, actually the brahma-vidyā was with the kṣatriyas. And how could a brāhmaṇa boy come to kṣatriya to learn it? "But still, my boys, you have come and I will teach you." That is what we have seen, that in one of the . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . there is no kṣatriya, no brāhmaṇa.

Dr. Patel: Common denominator. (break)

Prabhupāda: (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is this?

Indian man (1): . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Patel: Here the same thing. There are part of an ideal.

Prabhupāda: No, no. When the young men, young women, as they meet, there is possibility, sex.

Dr. Patel: That is there in Swaminarayan's sampradāya. If you go to temple, a sannyāsī you can't see, but the people from saṁsārīs, saṁsārīs, they can . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: But the men come from women.

Dr. Patel: That's right. But here we are talking of that.

Prabhupāda: So if they are . . . women are extricated, then where the Swaminarayan's devotees will come from?

Dr. Patel: And if they come from homes, not from the temple.

Prabhupāda: But home means that is from a woman.

Dr. Patel: But there, there, in the home, woman is there . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You cannot stop . . .

Dr. Patel: You are disagree . . . I can argue that way. Then you get annoyed to me. Then you call me big mūḍha.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you . . . why one should hate so much woman?

Dr. Patel: We don't hate. We want to protect you from sex.

Prabhupāda: That is . . . not to, not to see face, not to . . .

Dr. Patel: Because woman is the embodiment.

Prabhupāda: You should be trained up.

Dr. Patel: Woman is the embodiment of māyā.

Prabhupāda: Vikāra . . . in spite of woman, you'll not be agitated. That training required.

Dr. Patel: You . . . now, now, that training is very difficult to get. I am very sorry to say that.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. That training is there. We are . . . we are training in that way.

Dr. Patel: You must, you must have, I mean, a sort of a . . . you see, between the objects and indriyas . . .

Prabhupāda: Then according to Swaminarayan's principles, I am a fallen.

Dr. Patel: No, no, no, sir.

Prabhupāda: Because I am always surrounded by young girls.

Dr. Patel: No, no, that is . . . Swaminarayan was sitting with the women, but the sādhus . . .

Prabhupāda: Then why you said . . .? Don't you see . . .?

Dr. Patel: Listen, you are arguing in such a way that there will be a flash between us two.

Prabhupāda: No, no. People should be trained up in such a way that in spite of woman you should not be agitated. That is. That is.

Indian man (1): Our religion . . . (break) . . . and that these boys . . . (break)

Dr. Patel: Sādhus, not sannyāsīs. (break)

Prabhupāda: In European countries . . . in European countries, if you restrict in that way, that will be fanaticism.

Indian man (1): That is what I am telling you. It should not be done immediately like that. (break) . . . it must be trained, and it will take a long time.

Prabhupāda: Why Europe? Nowadays, here also. That is not possible.

Indian man (1): It is not . . . it is not possible.

Prabhupāda: It is simply utopian, utopian.

Dr. Patel: That is all right. It is not possible. So you are doing like this. When it was possible . . .

Prabhupāda: We are, we are training that . . . never mind. That is the training of Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. The women may be thousands, but you see them as your mother. That's it.

Indian man (1): That's all . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: If you must become agitated even by seeing mother, then what can be done?

Indian man (1): No, no, that should not be done.

Dr. Patel: Then you are a khara, go-khara.

Prabhupāda: Monkey.

Indian man (1): No, humare pas dandi swami hai na . . . (we have these dandi Swamis . . .) they don't see their own wife even. Goswami was saying that please don't have a meeting there . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, no.

Indian man (1): . . . because my wife is staying there. Because Prabhupāda has also created something, good thing. (break)

Dr. Patel: I'm very sorry that . . . you have misunderstood me. I said this is the strict injunctions. He did it under a command, but that . . .

Prabhupāda: But this cannot be carried.

Dr. Patel: And then people were so . . .

Prabhupāda: If you make some injunction which is impossible to carry . . .

Dr. Patel: Now! Kāla-dharma. That was a different kāla. That was a different time. Now they have also made some, so many . . . (break)

Indian man (1): . . . they talk also, Emergency, they talk also. In the Emergency Room, they talk also with the ladies. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . still going on.

Dr. Patel: Much more than . . .

Prabhupāda: Due to introduction of Sadananda's principles, the debauchery has not reduced. It has increased. So that is a failure.

Indian man (1): The more we try to stop, it is increasing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): That is the principle. (break)

Prabhupāda: That is the injunction, that is in śāstra:

mātrā svasrā duhitrā vā
na viviktāsano bhavet
balavān indriya-grāmo
vidvāṁsam api karṣati
(SB 9.19.17)

Mother, sister, daughter. Even with them one should not . . . in solitary.

Indian man (1): That is it. In solitary.

Dr. Patel: That is what Swaminarayan says. He says from the same Manu-smṛti. Yajnavalkya . . . (indistinct) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . seven years. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: (talking in background to somebody else) And these boys are very good students because they are . . . (break) . . . this dating business. I hate this word "date" itself. Eh?

Prabhupāda: Well, this hating . . . you hate for something, he hates for something else. That is going on.

Dr. Patel: But this dating . . . that is why I to . . . I mean, I did not see my wife before I married her. And we were very happy all the life. (break)

Prabhupāda: That is not happening nowadays. Now, when . . . one girl is visited many times, and she becomes pregnant, then marriage takes place.

Dr. Patel: Then only . . .

Indian man (1): By force you marry.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Otherwise, there is no marriage.

Indian man (1): Now they are, these . . . (indistinct) . . . and places they call this the modern day . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . of the same quality.

Indian man (1): That is the now. That is how.

Prabhupāda: How the mother can do that? Birds of the same feather.

Bhava-bhūti: It's predicted like that in the Bhāgavata.

Indian man (1): But the vibrations of these boys, what . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . done? Therefore we have got the Dallas school.

Indian man (1): I mean the Indian method of arranging marriage by the parents is the best. (break)

Prabhupāda: I have got them married. Although I am not their parents, I asked that, "You marry this." They accepted.

Indian man (1): That is the right way.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Jagat . . . Jagat-tāriṇī.

Bhava-bhūti: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: What is the name, Jagat-tāriṇī?

Viśākhā: Dīna-tāriṇī?

Prabhupāda: No, no, Jagat-tāriṇī?

Bhava-bhūti: Jagat-tāriṇī, yes.

Prabhupāda: Who . . .

Bhava-bhūti: And Bhūrijana.

Prabhupāda: He married Jagat-tāriṇī. She was a famous artist. So she came to me to surrender, that "I shall become your disciple."

Indian man (1): That paintings which was . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (1): She was painting in that film?

Prabhupāda: No, no. She is another girl. She's Jadurāṇī. So this Jagat-tāriṇī, after some days, I asked her that, "You go to Japan. There is my disciple, Bhūrijana. You go and marry him." So she did not see the boy, did not know anything about. And she was very rich. Still, on my order, she went to Japan and married that boy.

Indian man (2): Is she unhappy?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (2): Very happy.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): That's guru-vacana.

Dr. Patel: No, no. That guru and . . . Gurudeva . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: No. I did not like my wife. Still, I had to marry her. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: And you had not bad days all your life? Or you were quarreling? I am sorry to intrude.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Were you?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: So you are quarrelsome even now. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: My wife . . . I admit she's very nice lady. But I did not like her. (laughs) (break) . . . if he becomes so, he cannot become Aurobindo Ghosh. If he becomes attached to the wife up to the point of death, he never becomes Aurobindo Ghosh.

Indian man (1): Tulasi Das, also, the same thing happened. No? Everywhere . . .

Dr. Patel: I was attached to my wife. And I used to quarrel every day.

Prabhupāda: Quarreling between husband and wife, that is natural. That is explained in the Cāṇakya Paṇḍita: dam-patye kalahe caiva bambhārambhe laghu kriyā. The quarreling will be very humbug, big, but the result will be nothing.

Dr. Patel: Nothing. These American boys, they quarrel with their wives. The next day . . .

Prabhupāda: Because there is no . . .

Indian man (1): They will immediately quarrel.

Dr. Patel: No, no, no. Here, because the Hindu . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . quarrel, my wife never thought of any other man; neither I thought of any other woman.

Dr. Patel: Why? Because of the background.

Prabhupāda: Although we fought, but there was no such thing. (break) Fighting is natural. This is fight of love. This is not fighting. Therefore Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has said: "Neglect this fighting. Don't take it seriously." Dam-patye kalahe bambhārambhe laghu kriyā. This should not be . . . quarrel between husband and wife should not be taken seriously. Let them fight. It will stop automatically. That's all.

Dr. Patel: He said, now we have . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . wasting time in social . . . yes.

Dr. Patel: In wasting time in grāmya-kathā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Grāmya-vārttā.

Prabhupāda: Very good. It is a good suggestion. We should utilize the time for spiritual advancement.

Dr. Patel: (indistinct) . . . even sometimes . . . we already discussed. 18th accha hai, 'hagavad-gita . . . (18th chapter is nice, Bhagavad-gītā . . .) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . discussion on any śloka. Let us discuss.

Dr. Patel: Eh? Bolo. Chandobhai? (What do you say, Chandobhai?) Chandobhai knows the whole Bhagavad-gītā by heart.

Prabhupāda: That is very nice.

Dr. Patel: He knows it by heart.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Dr. Patel: I can't . . . I can't remember. I, I, I sometimes remember, but he remembers perpetually. Eh?

Prabhupāda: So. What is that?

Chandobhai: Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe tiṣṭhati arjuna (BG 18.61). Let us say that only.

Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that?


īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati
bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni
yantrārūḍhāni māyayā
(BG 18.61)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: Tam eva śaraṇaṁ gaccha sarva-bhāvena bhārata . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: . . . tat prasādāt parāṁ śāntiṁ sthānaṁ prāpsyasi śāśvatam (BG 18.62).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: I think that is the crux of the whole thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So īśvara . . . that . . . this, this, I was discussing the other day. Bhūtānām īśvaro 'pi san. Īśvara. Bhūtānām īśvaro 'pi sann avyayātmā (BG 4.6). So Kṛṣṇa is always īśvara. We are īśvara in the family or in the office or in my society, but we are not that type of īśvara that I can live within the heart of everyone. Therefore there is distinction between this īśvara and we īśvara. The Māyāvādīs, they do not understand this. He claims that, "I am the same īśvara." But do you remain in everyone's heart? Can you study . . . can you study what I am thinking now? But still, they will say: "I am the same." This is Māyāvādī philosophy's defect.

Chandobhai: Difference.

Prabhupāda: No, this is defect. They do not understand their incapability, and still, they claim, "I am the same, one, so ham." This is their deficiency. Here is the de . . . īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe . . . (BG 18.61). Do you stay . . . can you stay . . . can you say what I am thinking now? Then why you are claiming that īśvara? You are a rascal. Why you are claiming? (aside:) Namaskāra. And īśvara, īśvara means he knows . . . that is also described in Bhagavad-gītā. What is that?

Chandobhai: Hṛd-deśe . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṣetrajña, kṣetrajña.

Chandobhai: Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi
sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata
(BG 13.3)

Kṣetra-kṣetrajña-jñānam. Kṣetra means this body, and kṣetrajña means one who knows. Kṣetrajña. Now, you know the pains and pleasure of your body. I know the pains and pleasure of my body. But I do not know the pains and pleasure of your body.

Chandobhai: And the Lord knows the pains and pleasures of everybody.

Prabhupāda: Therefore He says, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. That is the difference. But the Māyāvādī will not accept this.

Dr. Patel: Kṣetra-kṣetrajñayor jñānaṁ tad jñānam . . .

Prabhupāda: That is jñānam. They are in ajñāna, still, they are claiming that, "We are jñānī." You see? This is the defect.

Chandobhai: Aham ātmā guḍākeśa sarva-bhūtāśaya-sthitaḥ (BG 10.20).


prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
kartāham iti manyate
(BG 3.27)

You see? He's thinking falsely that he's kartā, he's God, he is īśvara.

Chandobhai: He cannot be īśvara.

Prabhupāda: That is . . .

Chandobhai: Īśvara is one only.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: There cannot be two īśvaras.

Prabhupāda: And, and, not only that. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni (BG 18.61). He's managing the business of all living entities. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. That I was explaining the other day. Just see Kṛṣṇa's business, that He is situated in everyone's heart, and He's giving direction and managing all His affairs. And there are unlimited millions and tril . . . not millions either. Unlimited. Without any number. He has to manage them. So how much busy He is. And that is . . . how is being done? Ekāṁśena sthito jagat (BG 10.42).

Chandobhai: Ekāṁśena. His only one part of . . .

Prabhupāda: Only, only a part. That is Kṛṣṇa. And these rascals thinking, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is as good as I am." Just see. The Māyāvādī rascals, they think like that, that "I am as good as Kṛṣṇa." "Kṛṣṇa played rāsa-līlā. Therefore I shall do."

Dr. Patel: These Māyāvādīs . . . Māyāvādī is one who thinks himself to be all in all.

Prabhupāda: Means rascal number one. "All in all, I am one," that is . . . means rascal number one.

Dr. Patel: How do you explain ahaṁ brahmāsmi?

Prabhupāda: You are by quality Brahman, spirit.

Dr. Patel: But not quantity as well.

Prabhupāda: No. Quantity . . . just like if you take a drop of water of this . . . if the drop says, "I am the ocean," what is this nonsense? You are drop of water.

Chandobhai: You are part of the ocean.

Prabhupāda: Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). That's right. That is nice.

Dr. Patel: Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūte, mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke, jīva-loke . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ (BG 15.7).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhāni indriyāṇi . . .

Prabhupāda: So that the Māyāvādīs do not know. "Why aṁśa? I am the same. I am the whole." Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). Therefore they are rotting in this material world, hard struggle for existence.

Dr. Patel: Śarīraṁ yad avāpnoti yac cāpy utkrāmatīśvaraḥ . . . (BG 15.8)

Prabhupāda: Ah. And that is going on, transmigration.

Dr. Patel: . . . gṛhītvaitāni saṁyāti vāyur gandhān ivāśayāt. How the body goes away.

Prabhupāda: Yes. According . . . according to the quality or the modes of nature, he has to change his body. This Māyāvāda philosophy has made the whole world atheist. They don't believe in God.

Dr. Patel: I think this, what do you call, Māyāvāda philosophy is not . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī was introduced . . .

Dr. Patel: By Buddha.

Prabhupāda: . . . by Śaṅkara.

Chandobhai: Śaṅkara and Jains mostly.

Prabhupāda: Māyāvāda . . .

Dr. Patel: Jains are, they are . . . they don't believe in God. Jains are . . . their soul is as long as their body. If that leg is cut, the soul's leg is cut.

Prabhupāda: No. Without . . . without going to other philosophy, best thing is to stick to your own philosophy and try to understand.

Chandobhai: Yes, that is the best thing.

Prabhupāda: That is the best thing.

Chandobhai: Then you'll understand all the philosophies.

Prabhupāda: So you take the essence of all philosophies, Bhagavad-gītā.

Indian man (1): Extract of every śāstra is Bhagavad-gītā.

Chandobhai: Not only that, you must speak your own philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: Ultimately, the goal is one, you see.

Dr. Patel: How you explain:

ūrdhva-mūlam adhah-śākham
aśvatthaṁ prāhur avyayam
chandāṁsi yasya parṇāni
yas taṁ veda sa veda-vit
(BG 15.1)

Prabhupāda: Ūrdhva-mūlam adhah-śākham. Have you got any experience, ūrdhva-mūlam adhah-śākham? Have you got any experience? The root is upside and the branches and the twigs downside.

Dr. Patel: In the shadow in the pond.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: That is in rivers. But it's in the shadow.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore this reality is there which is up. And this is shadow.

Dr. Patel: That's it.

Indian man (1): . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Patel: No, he has . . . I mean, delivered. I was not able to understand for many years these things. Ūrdhva-mūlam . . . (break) . . . and this illusionary shadow is . . .

Prabhupāda: This is maintained by Vedic injunction. Just like people are very much attached to fruitive activities. They are attached to that. They do not want to go beyond. The karmīs. Karmīs, their whole ambition is how to go to these heavenly planet. He does not know that what is the benefit of going to the heavenly planet. He does not know. Therefore he is amazed by the chandāṁsi, Vedic chandāṁsi. Yām imāṁ puṣpitāṁ vācam (BG 2.42), veda-vādinaḥ. So they are especially attached to these Vedic . . .

Chandobhai: Injunctions of action.

Prabhupāda: Fruitive activities. They do not accept this: ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna (BG 8.16). They'll not. "No, no. We shall go to . . ." Just like these rascals are going to the Candraloka. Candraloka. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: They are rascals. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Now other rascals supporting them, "Oh, now we are . . ." (laughter)

Dr. Patel: The Americans rascals are going there.

Prabhupāda: No, many other rascals are going also. And Indian rascals are supporting that, "Oh, now science is so advanced. Now there is no question of this Bhagavad-gītā. Now we have to go to the moon planet."

Dr. Patel: That, that . . . I told you that story? Those astronauts who have gone on . . . (break) I have read it.

Prabhupāda: The astronautics . . .

Chandobhai: It is so said like that. The astronauts, they were all talking of philosophy only and nothing else, after coming from moon.

Prabhupāda: The astronautics . . . that Russian . . . even Nehru went to receive. Just see, such a rascal minister we have, an astronaut is to be received. Eh, come on . . . (break)

Dr. Patel: All astronauts . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . he was received by Nehru? Eh?

Dr. Patel: Might have. All astronauts, they have got no sex desire. All of them. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . still asiddha.

Dr. Patel: Sex.

Prabhupāda: So do you mean to say by avoiding sex life one becomes siddha?

Dr. Patel: That is what they do, but that is what . . .

Prabhupāda: That is your standard?

Dr. Patel: . . . as far as sex is concerned, they are siddhas.

Prabhupāda: Then impotents are all siddhas. (laughter) All the impotent persons, they're all siddhas.

Dr. Patel: That is, in a way, they are.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Dr. Patel: Niḥspṛha-cetanaṁ jagat . . .

Indian man (1): No, those have controlled their sex . . . (indistinct) . . . are . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Siddhas means in spite of agitation, he's not agitated. That is siddha. That is siddha.

Dr. Patel: But in spite of agitation of their wives, they are not agitated.

Prabhupāda: It is simply forceful negation.

Dr. Patel: But in spite of their wives' agitation, they are not agitated.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that . . . no, you are calling them siddhas. Therefore I am telling you, then impotents are siddhas.

Dr. Patel: Then what should we call them?

Prabhupāda: Eh? No, they are little advanced, that's all. You can say that. (break) . . . facility, they are . . . they have become little advanced.

Dr. Patel: Candra is the lord of mind, and . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Still, he was Candra. He was given the post of Candra. You were not given. You were not given.

Dr. Patel: That is what I say.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that siddha is different thing.

Dr. Patel: Candradevi is the wife of guru. He was a rascal.

Prabhupāda: Siddha is different thing. But why they are given post? Just like the government post is given to the qualified man. It doesn't matter whether . . .

Dr. Patel: Candra must be a very vigorous fellow. All the . . . (indistinct) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa . . . that is siddha. That is siddha. All rascals. This is siddha. Api cet sudurācāraḥ. Because he's sticking to this principle that, "Kṛṣṇa is my everything," sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). That is sādhu (break) . . . real things are not . . . and, and the next verse says, śaśvad bhavati dharmātmā (BG 9.31). Because he has taken to this principle, other good qualities will soon come there. Don't bother. But first thing is that he has taken that, "Kṛṣṇa is my life." Ananya-bhāk. Then everything will come. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). This is wanted. That is siddhi. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ.

mām upetya kaunteya
duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ
(BG 8.15)

This is . . . one who has captured Kṛṣṇa, he has got siddhi. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramām. The highest perfection he has attained. That is wanted. Harāv abhaktasya kuto . . . (SB 5.18.12). If . . . one may be reluctant to sex life for a few days. Then again he'll do that. Because he has no shelter. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa param . . . even they go to the Brahmaloka, they come down. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa param. Kṛcchra, very severe austerities. They rise up to the brāhmaṇaḥ padavī, and again fall down. Because they have no shelter. So all these siddhis are simply temporary. It has no meaning. It has no value. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). So these siddhas will take many, many births to come to the point of surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. You see? Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante.

Indian man (1): In between they start showing so many things.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And in the meantime they may fall down and go to hell.

Indian man (1): Yes, that is how it is.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . simply surrender to Kṛṣṇa, his so-called siddhas and these are . . . they are bogus. (break) "Oh, he has got so much Vedic knowledge." No. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. Even though he appears to have so much knowledge, his real knowledge has been taken away by māyā.

Chandobhai: Yes, "If I sincerely love You, You will reveal Yourself to me."

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . Bhagavad-gītā in the Seventh Chapter:

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ
prapadyante narādhamāḥ
āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ
(BG 7.15)

Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛti . . . unless one is pious, one cannot come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break) . . . I say, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān mām . . . (BG 7.19). That, that surrender is perfect because he has known everything. Then he's surrendering.

Dr. Patel: Jñānena hatvā . . .

Prabhupāda: That is jñāna. That jñāna.

Dr. Patel: Me . . . Aṁśa . . . what is that? (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . that is, of course, studying Bhagavad-gītā, but their main business is to carry out the orders of their spiritual master. That is first business. Otherwise simply quoting for lives together, they'll never come to . . .

Indian man (1): Kṛṣṇaloka.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Like us.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Like us. (laughter) You wanted to speak like that . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Good father, mother, who has begotten a child like you.

Yaśomatīnandana: I'm just a rogue. You are my real father.

Prabhupāda: Pitā na sa syāt. Shastra me bolta hai. (It is mentioned in the scriptures.) Pitā na sa syāt na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum (SB 5.5.18). Pitā, father, must be . . . he must be father who can deliver his son from the impending death. So one can avoid this repetition of birth and death only becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. So any father who gives chance to his children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's real father. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt . . . na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum.

(break) . . . there is a verse:

janame janame sabe pitā-mātā pāya
kṛṣṇa-guru nāhi mile bhaja ei bhāi

In every birth one can get father and mother, but to get the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, that is not possible in every birth. That is only possible in this human form. The cats and dogs, they have got their father and mother. Therefore if we become father, mother like cats and dogs, there is no need of such . . . Kṛṣṇa-guru nāhi mile bhaja . . . the father helps the children to achieve Kṛṣṇa and guru, that is real father. (break) . . . they avoid that trap, they avoid association of women. But these women are not ordinary women. They are preachers. They are preachers. They are Vaiṣṇava. By their association, one becomes a Vaiṣṇava.

(kīrtana) (end)