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750331 - Conversation - Mayapur

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

750331R1-MAYAPUR - March 31, 1975 - 15:19 Minutes

Acyutānanda: . . . stuff His ears up when anyone would refer to Him as God. He wants to be known as a devotee. But we worship Him as God, in the same line as Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Acyutānanda: So how do we understand that?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Acyutānanda: That Lord Caitanya doesn't want to be praised as God, but we worship Him as such.

Prabhupāda: That is a warning to the future fools and rascals that even God does not like to be addressed as God, but we address Him as God on the strength of śāstra. Kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣā kṛṣṇaṁ saṅgo-paṅgastra . . . yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ (SB 11.5.32). Here is the incarnation of God. That is . . . śāstra says. So out of His humbleness, He may say like that, but we should know by following the ācāryas, by śāstra. Sādhu-śāstra-guru vākya. Guru accepts Him God; śāstra accepts Him God; sādhu accepts Him God.

Acyutānanda: The people say that just like Ramakrishna, the disciples presented him as God, but he never said he was God.

Prabhupāda: But then where is the śāstra?

Acyutānanda: No.

Prabhupāda: Three things: the devotee or saintly person, śāstra and guru. He has no guru. He has no support from the śāstra. (laughs) So he's a fool, rascal number one, and he is God. He was a illiterate priest. He had no knowledge of śāstra. Besides that, in the śāstra it is said that, "Those who are worshiping other demigods, their intelligence is lost." So he was worshiping Kālī. So he had no intelligence or spiritual realization, and he became God? So these things can be accepted by other fools and rascals. But those who follow śāstra, they will reject immediately.

Acyutānanda: What if they say Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a devotee, He worshiped the Supreme Lord, kīrtana, but His disciples say He's God?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Acyutānanda: Simply the disciples have said He's God.

Prabhupāda: No. That . . . why do you . . .? I have already said that He's supported by śāstra. He's supported by śāstra. He's supported by learned scholars, but here, in the transcendental scholars. And supported by guru. We follow our guru. So guru says; śāstra says; saintly persons say. Therefore we accept.

Acyutānanda: They interpret that verse in another way.

Prabhupāda: That, the rascals do. They are . . . what is their value? When these rascals says that worshiping Kālī, one becomes God . . .

Acyutānanda: No. No. Vaiṣṇavas.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Acyutānanda: The Rāmānuja and the Madhva, they say kṛṣṇa-varṇam means "black." Kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣa kṛṣṇam (SB 11.5.32): "But He is effulgent."

Prabhupāda: Hmm? No. We should follow our ācāryas. Why . . .

Acyutānanda: No, but how to convince them that? They will never accept Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: No. "You are also ācārya, but we have got our own ācārya. Why should I follow you?"

Acyutānanda: But how to convince them?

Prabhupāda: Convince means they will not be convinced. Kṛṣṇa-varṇam, kṛṣṇaṁ varṇayati. One who is describing Kṛṣṇa, that is kṛṣṇa-varṇa. And kṛṣṇa-varṇa does not mean black. And again it is confirmed, tviṣā akṛṣṇam. So how can they say "black"? By complexion, He is akṛṣṇa. So how they can interpret that He's black?

Acyutānanda: That it says . . . they interpret kṛṣṇa-varṇam . . .

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is foolishness. Kṛṣṇa-varṇam means kṛṣṇaṁ varṇayati iti kṛṣṇa-varṇam. If it is kṛṣṇa-varṇa, then how it is again confirmed, tviṣā akṛṣṇa?

Acyutānanda: That His effulgence.

Prabhupāda: That is his interpretation. Tviṣā, tviṣā akṛṣṇam. And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, idānīṁ kṛṣṇatāṁ gataḥ, śuklo raktas tathā pitaḥ idānīṁ kṛṣṇatāṁ gataḥ (SB 10.8.13). So God has other colors also: white and red and yellow. So here is yellow. Tviṣā akṛṣṇa. So we have to follow Jīva Gosvāmī. What these rascals we have to follow? We don't follow. If you have got a interpretation, we have got better interpretation. Why shall I accept you? My mother says: "Here is your father." I shall accept that, or somebody says, "Here is your father"? Whom shall I accept? Mother's version. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam (BG 4.2). We should accept the paramparā ācāryas, not whimsically anyone's interpretation you have to accept.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, it's very clear that if one does not accept Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then actually he cannot worship Kṛṣṇa properly.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now just to carry on with Acyutānanda Mahārāja's point, it would seem then that the Rāmānujīs and the Madhvites, they don't accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So how can they possibly . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore they cannot understand the higher rasas.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Unnata-ujjvala-rasam, they cannot understand.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they can understand śānta-rasa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dāsya-rasa.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But not sākhya.

Prabhupāda: Not more than that. They cannot meditate. There is no paternal rasa or madhurya-rasa in their community.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. And the Vallabhites, they also . . . actually they don't accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They say Vallabhācārya is their Mahāprabhu. And they worship in . . .

Prabhupāda: Vallabhācārya was rejected by Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I know that. So actually . . .

Prabhupāda: He was simply proud of his education. He had no realization.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You explained that . . .

Acyutānanda: Do they worship in vātsalya-rasa, or just show?

Prabhupāda: Show, formality.

Acyutānanda: It's not genuine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not genuine.

Prabhupāda: Some of them say that "Kṛṣṇa, becoming . . . before becoming polluted." They say like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they do.

Prabhupāda: That means childhood age, there is no pollution, and youthhood age, Kṛṣṇa's, it was polluted by the gopīs. This is their version. "Kṛṣṇa becomes polluted."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they say like that.

Prabhupāda: Do they say like that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I have spoken to them, in Hyderabad, that Bal Krishna Das. And another thing they say is that Rādhārāṇī's name is not mentioned in Bhāgavata. So this whole emphasis on Rādhā is not correct.

Acyutānanda: Is not correct.

Prabhupāda: That means they cannot understand rādhā-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛti (CC Adi 1.5). They cannot understand. And therefore in their community you won't find any high-class devotee. Simply official sentiment, that's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I . . . is Vallabhācārya . . .? So he cannot be considered actually in proper line.

Prabhupāda: Because Vallabhācārya was rejected by Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's in the line with . . .

Prabhupāda: He accepted him as a learned scholar, but He did not accept him as very highly realized soul.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, you explained that before. His guru, Vallabhācārya's guru, is . . . he's in Mādhavendra Purī's line?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? No.

Acyutānanda: Viṣṇu Svāmī . . .

Prabhupāda: They come in the Viṣṇu Svāmī. I do not exactly know who was his immediate guru.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. I'm just trying to clear these points up because, I remember when I was preaching in South India, this discussion came up, that . . . just like Mādhavendra Purī, he found the Deity of Gopāla, and you've explained . . .

Prabhupāda: That is our Gauḍīya. Mādhavendra Purī is Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You explained how he was worshiping the Deity. Now, that Deity of Gopāla . . .

Acyutānanda: Śrīnāthjī.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīnāthjī. So that Deity was eventually handed over?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Acyutānanda: During Muhammadans, the Deity was moved.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Vallabhācārya . . .

Acyutānanda: I heard that after the death of Vallabhācārya, Sanātana Gosvāmī told his son to worship the Gopāla Deity. He engaged his son, Vallabhācārya's son, as a pūjārī in Govardhana. So then it came into their hands.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? That may be, yes.

Acyutānanda: Then, when the Deity was moved, it was moved to Nāthadvāra, and now they, now they are . . .

Prabhupāda: When the Deity was given to them, they could do anything.

Acyutānanda: Yes. 'Cause his son was all hopeless that, "The ācārya is dead and my father is dead." He didn't know what to do. But they have written . . . they have pictures. They draw pictures of Śrīnāthjī on Govardhana, and Vallabhācārya is worshiping Him, all over.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is a big . . . that's the reason. It's a big mistake. I had a discussion with one man. So I was stating that Mādhavendra Purī found this Deity, Gopāla, but their teaching is that Vallabhācārya found the Deity. I said: "No, Mādhavendra Purī handed the Deity over later on for worship, but it was he who found the Deity and originated the worship on Govardhana, and all the villagers . . ."

Prabhupāda: It has been confirmed in the court that this Deity belongs to Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas. There was big case amongst themselves, and the court gave judgement that, "This Deity belongs to the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava."

Acyutānanda: Oh. When was that court case?

Prabhupāda: Say, about four, five years ago. No, about ten to fifteen years ago.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Recently.

Acyutānanda: Who represented the Gauḍīya . . .?

Prabhupāda: Nobody, but from the history it was found that it belonged to Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. That . . . in Delhi one lawyer is there. He knows. He told me. (long pause)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In our Society, some devotees have an idea to spend money by employing professional men to advertise our Society in so many different ways, through advertising campaigns, etc. My idea is that our money should be spent on direct preaching. In other words, that can't . . .

Prabhupāda: Then we are spending advertisement for . . .?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, sometimes I know . . . just . . . I mean they hire professional firms to assist in public relations work.

Prabhupāda: Not in . . . what is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As an example, last year at Ratha-yātrā, two thousand dollars were spent to hire a professional group to assist them in making up the advertisements and other things, giving them guidance, general assistance . . .

Prabhupāda: If you get really assistance, there is no harm. Just like sometimes we go to the court, we pay to the lawyer, because we are not expert. In that sense, it can be spent.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But cautiously.

Prabhupāda: Yes. For nothing, because you have got money, no. Unless it is urgently or absolute necessary, you should not spend.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And there should be some . . . there should be some limitation. We should not spend tens of thousands of dollars . . .

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . in such a way.

Acyutānanda: They shouldn't listen to the decisions of these professional men if they say: "Don't do this and don't do that."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: The president should be restricted that, "You cannot spend more than this amount without sanction of GBC."

Acyutānanda: When we were in Bombay, there was an organization man, that one gentleman who was discussing with Bhagavān about the general organization of the Society, that you suggested we talk to him.

Prabhupāda: So many, they came. They simply talk.

Acyutānanda: There was one particular who . . .

Prabhupāda: They do not help.

Acyutānanda: No, when we were talking to him, he said that every temple should have its budget, and over that budget, the GBC should sanction. They have two accounts.

Prabhupāda: (hums) Hmm . . .

Acyutānanda: Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Mahāṁsa Mahārāja got the customs duty waiver for the bus from Germany . . . (break) What about the bullock carts?

Prabhupāda: Bullock cart is very good for India.

Acyutānanda: But that's for the small villages. The big towns, they're very far apart.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Well you are not supposed to go to the small villages. (end)