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750506 - Conversation - Perth

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

750506ED-PERTH - May 06, 1975 - 39:40 Minutes

Amogha: I should continue?

Paramahaṁsa: Well, it makes some discussion.

Amogha: Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: Where is difficulty to understand? If it is not understood, put your question and try to understand.

Amogha: In verses like this one, when there is the multi-use of one word, like the word ātmā is mentioned here to refer to four potential meanings. Sometimes professors and some scholars argue on the point, "How do we know which one of the meanings is used in this verse?"

Prabhupāda: Any one you can take, and it will be explained. Yes.

Amogha: So any of the four meanings is also the same true meaning.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Amogha: Sometimes they claim that we should not—we can—but we should not claim that our choice is the true choice. But they don't understand that any of those meanings can be true at the same time.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this body is true. We have got body. We don't say it is false. It is true. Bodily pains and pleasures we feel, so how can I say that the body is false? The bodily needs, bodily pains and pleasures, there we are affected. So how you can say it is false? Similarly the mind, and soul is absolutely factual. So any item you take, you can understand by thorough study.

Paramahaṁsa: In some cases, in a more controversial case, the word chosen, or the meaning chosen for a particular Sanskrit word, may change the whole meaning of the verse, but because . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to take the paramparā meaning. Because we are foolish, we cannot understand properly. Tad vijñārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Therefore, one has to go to guru and understand the meaning by paramparā system. You cannot make your own meaning. The meaning is already there. But if you cannot understand, then you should approach guru and understand the meaning by paramparā.

Paramahaṁsa: Sometimes people ask where Swami Prabhupāda gets his meanings for different words, because they would differ, they would disagree and pick some other word. But they don't know that you are simply taking the verse and the meaning of the words word for word, as the previous ācāryas have done.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says. You take that meaning. Where is the difficulty? You do not know, and neither you accept Kṛṣṇa's words. Therefore you remain foolish. You foolishly . . . first of all you do not know; you are imperfect. And one who knows, you do not take his words. Then you remain foolish. What can we do? What is the answer? You are foolish, so you have to know from others. When we say that you take from others who are perfect, you will not take. And you are foolish, so remain foolish. What can we do? Hmm?

Paramahaṁsa: Sometimes people ask, though, they say: "Well why is it even among the ācāryas we find sometimes that there is a difference of opinion?"

Prabhupāda: They are not ācāryas. They are not ācāryas. There is no difference of understanding between ācāryas. What Madhvācārya understands, we understand. Suppose you are present ācārya. So there is no difference. What Rāmānujācārya understands, we also understand. What Caitanya Mahāprabhu understand, we also understand. So where is the difference? Difference should be that is the fact that he is not ācārya. As soon as he differs from the previous ācāryas, that means he is not ācārya. Otherwise there is full agreement between all the ācāryas. Just like Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person, all ācāryas agree. Where is the difference? Does Rāmānujācārya differ from Madhvācārya, or Madhvācārya differs from Śrī Caitanya, Caitanya differs from—no. There is no difference. That is Vaiṣṇava. All the Vaiṣṇavas, they understand that Viṣṇu is the Supreme. There may be, sometimes, such as Kṛṣṇa is understood as incarnation of Viṣṇu, and sometimes they understand Viṣṇu as the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. That is sampradāya. That is sampradāya. But either Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu, He is Supreme, that is accepted by all.

Paramahaṁsa: So that point is not so important, whether Kṛṣṇa is coming from Viṣṇu or Viṣṇu is coming from Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not important. Because, actually both of Them the same, the Supreme. That example we give that candle, two candles, that so far the power of lighting is concerned, both of them equal. Now, you may say this is first candle, I say if it is first candle. But so far the power is concerned, there is no difference of opinion. If I love somebody, I'll say he is first, and if you love somebody, you'll say he is first. But both of them same. Just like devotees: some devotees are very . . . Hanumānjī, he'll never accept Kṛṣṇa. And the gopīs will never accept Rāma or Viṣṇu. So far the Kṛṣṇa and Viṣṇu, They are all the same. (aside) What is that?

Paramahaṁsa: I think perhaps the other boy has come back . . . (indistinct) . . . so actually the differences, whatever little differences may arise, those differences amongst the ācāryas, they are due to feelings of . . . different feelings of love for Kṛṣṇa or His manifestations.

Prabhupāda: You'll find in some, among some devotees, they will criticize, "Why you are worshiping Rāmacandra? He could not save even His wife." (laughter) And some will, "Ah, you are worshiping Kṛṣṇa. He was so fond of women." Like that. In Vṛndāvana you'll find they are different. Somebody will say "Hare Kṛṣṇa," another will say: "Sītā Rāma." There will be competition. There is no difference. Both of them know that "Either I worship Rāma or Kṛṣṇa, They are the same.

Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Here it mentions Brahmān, and as I understood oṁkāra . . . my question is whether oṁkāra is a representation. . .

Prabhupāda: There is no question about oṁkāra there. Discuss on the verse. But oṁkāra is also Kṛṣṇa. Praṇavaḥ sarva vedeṣu. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya praṇavaḥ sarva vedeṣu (BG 7.8). Kṛṣṇa says, "I am praṇavaḥ." So oṁkāra is not different from Kṛṣṇa. But oṁkāra is pronounced by the impersonalists. That is the difference. Kṛṣṇa, when He says that "I am praṇavaḥ, I am oṁkāra," then where is the objection? They foolishly say that "Oṁkāra is better than Kṛṣṇa. There is no need of chanting Kṛṣṇa. That is not good." But so far we are concerned, we say there is no difference between oṁkāra and Kṛṣṇa. All other system, Christianism or Buddhism or Muhammadanism, they have got one book—Koran, Bible, or . . . what is the Buddhist book? . . . (indistinct) . . . one book. And we have got so many, dealing with the same subject matter. So which is better? Higher mathematics, or two plus two? They should understand the gravity of this movement, my presentation of books. They haven't got so many books. Two thousand years passed, the Christian religion has got only one book, Bible. And their only pastime of Christ is crucifixion. That's it. There is the cross. Therefore it has become hackneyed. People are no more interested, neither they can explain very nicely. Neither they follow strictly whatever little information they have. Then?

Amogha: Next verse?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Amogha: Next verse?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.


adhiyajñaḥ kathaṁ ko 'tra
dehe 'smin madhusūdana
prayāṇa-kāle ca kathaṁ
jñeyo 'si niyatātmabhiḥ
(BG 8.2)

(devotees repeat verse and Amogha reads word-for-word synonyms)

Translation: "How does this Lord of sacrifice live within the body, and in which part does He live, O Madhusūdana? And how can those engaged in devotional service know You at the time of death?" (aside) Pay obeisances? (break)

Paramahaṁsa: . . . Madhusūdana because He killed the demon Madhu. But who was that Madhu?

Prabhupāda: A demon, it is said.

Paramahaṁsa: But I don't think we've heard that story before.

Prabhupāda: In the beginning, when Brahmā was created, one demon, Madhu, he came to swallow him. And Kṛṣṇa killed him. Madhu-Kaitava, two brothers, Madhu and Kaitava.

Paramahaṁsa: He came to swallow Brahmā?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Paramahaṁsa: So he was one of the first demons killed.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Amogha: May we ask questions about pronouncing the Sanskrit?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Amogha: When the a-h with the dot is in the middle of a verse, should it always be pronounced clearly, a-ha. Adhi-yajña-ha, or is it more like adhi-yajña.

Prabhupāda: That is stated there. In the verse what it is?

Amogha: Adhi-yaj . . . well, it depends on whether I pronounce it right. (laughs) But it is spelled, a-d-h-i-y-a-j-n-a-h with a dot underneath. So . . .

Prabhupāda: Adhi-yajña. When we divide the word, then the first noun form is used. Sanskrit grammar is very difficult. It requires twelve years to learn simply Sanskrit grammar. So that is not possible. So whatever is there, you understand that. Sanskrit grammar is very, very difficult. At least twelve years required. And if you understand Sanskrit grammar, then you can read all the Vedic literature without any translation. Simply by studying. Therefore the Sanskrit scholars are first of all taught grammar. And when one is expert in reading grammar properly, then all Vedic literature becomes very simplified . . . (indistinct)

Amogha: The Supersoul, does He . . . I remember in one place it describes that the Lord is so small that He can enter even into the heart of the individual soul, and . . .

Prabhupāda: Even into the atom. So where is the difficulty?

Amogha: Well, sometimes it is described that the Supersoul is situated beside the individual soul.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Amogha: So He's beside the individual soul, not inside the individual soul.

Prabhupāda: Individual soul . . . inside does not mean He is not beside. We are within this room, that does not mean I am not beside the room. Because I live within the room, does it mean that the room and myself are the same? Then? Why don't you understand this? God may be within anything, but that does not mean that He is equal or one within. That is the Māyāvādī philosophy, a foolish philosophy. Because I am within this room, does it mean that the room and myself are the same? I am more important than the room. So what is the difficulty to understand? Does it mean because I am within the room, I am less important than the room? The room is important or I am important? Who is important? Hmm? Who is important?

Amogha: The person within. You are.

Prabhupāda: So similarly, Kṛṣṇa may enter within anything, but still He is important than anything. This is simultaneous. Aṇḍāntara sthaṁ paramāṇu-cayāntara stham (Bs. 5.35)—Kṛṣṇa is within and without. That is Kṛṣṇa's position. Antar bahir avasthitam (SB 1.8.18). In Kunti's prayers you will find that "Kṛṣṇa, You are within, and You are without, but still nobody can understand." That is stated. What is our experience? Within and without. But Kṛṣṇa is both, within and without, and still we do not see. Naṭo nāṭyadharo yathā (SB 1.8.19)—just like a person playing on the stage, and his relatives and others they cannot understand that Mr. Such-and-such is playing. He is seeing something else. He is playing before him, he is known to him, but he still cannot understand. This example is given, naṭo nāṭyadharo yathā. So Kuntīdevī explained this. Did you not read Kunti's prayer? She said, antar bahir avasthitaḥ: "You are situated within and without. Everywhere You are. But still the foolish men cannot understand." And why they cannot? Naṭo nāṭyadharo yathā. Just like one's father is playing on the stage, but because he is playing in a different role, or dressing in a different role, even the son cannot understand. So what is the difficulty? Hmm?

Difficulty is mind; otherwise there is no difficulty. I am foolish, therefore . . . otherwise Kṛṣṇa is visible to everyone. We have got two kinds of experience, within and without. And He is present within and without, but still we cannot see Kṛṣṇa. That is my foolishness, that is my imperfection. You have to become perfect, then we will see Kṛṣṇa everywhere. That is morning sādhana, spiritual consciousness, advancement. And the more we advance in spiritual consciousness, Kṛṣṇa we'll realize more and more. Svayam eva sphuraty adhaḥ

ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi
na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ
sevonmukhe hi jihvādau
svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ

"No one can understand the transcendental nature of the name, form, quality and pastimes of Śrī Kṛṣṇa through his materially contaminated senses. Only when one becomes spiritually saturated by transcendental service to the Lord are the transcendental name, form, quality and pastimes of the Lord revealed to him." (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234): you cannot see Kṛṣṇa, but as soon as you become purified, He reveals Himself. It is not due to you that you can see. When Kṛṣṇa allows Himself to be seen by you, then you can see. So you have to become qualified to see Him, otherwise He is everywhere present. We can see Him. And without being qualified, if you want to see Him, that is not possible. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). Find out this verse.

Amogha: Chapter Seven, verse 25.


nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya
yoga-māyā samāvṛtaḥ
mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti
loko mām ajam avyayam
(BG 7.25)

"I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency, yoga-māyā. So the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible."

Prabhupāda: It is explained there. He does not reveal Himself. Why He shall reveal Himself to an unqualified person? That is Kṛṣṇa's prerogative. If He likes, He will reveal. If He does not like, He will not reveal. You cannot by force see Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, first of all be qualified, then try to see Kṛṣṇa. He is not exposed. Even a big man, if you want to see him, he may refuse, "No, I cannot see him." What can you do? If you think that, "This man is third-class man, why shall I see him?" Even in ordinary human society that is going on. So why people are eager to see Kṛṣṇa without being qualified? Why these rascals say, "Can you show me God?" First of all you become fit to see God. They'll not become fit. They'll do all nonsense, and "We'll see God." Kṛṣṇa is addressed, pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). He is the supreme pure, and we are impure, and you want to see the supreme pure. You see? What audacity! I am not fire, I want to enter into the fire. You see? What will be the result? You'll be burned into ashes. First of all be fire. Increase your temperature to the same temperature, then it will automatically. He is Para-brahman, so you realize yourself as Brahman. You are realizing yourself as American, Indian, this, that, and you want to see Para-brahman? The foolish people will do like that. And one has to become purified, sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ (CC Madhya 19.170). One has to be free from all designations. Everyone, we give more prominence to the designations: "I am this, I am this." So how can you see God like that? First of all you become designationless. As Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, that "I am not a Brāhmiṇ. I am not a kṣatriya. I am not a vaiśya"—everything He denied.

So purify yourself and you'll see God, whatever . . . (indistinct) . . . so Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to become purified. Then you'll see always. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva (Bs. 5.38). Sadaiva means always. This is the process. Why these rascals say: "Can you show me God?" What qualification you have got? He doesn't think like that, that "I have no qualification." He thinks that, "I am very advanced." That is foolishness. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ. Similarly, a third-class man goes to a high-court judge . . . (indistinct) . . . and the Justice is saying, "Who is that?" "I don't know." There was an incident, one big philosopher and one big dramatic player. He was also very famous. So he went to see that philosopher and sent his card. He said, "Oh, why shall I see this dancing dog? He may be famous as a dancing dog, but I have no business with him . . . (indistinct) . . . philosopher. If some philosopher comes, then it will be a pleasure to talk with him. What does he know? He may be expert in dancing. It is not philosophy." So he refused to see him. "Why shall I see this dancing dog?" He used these words, "He's a dancing dog." He came, as a dog is dancing." So similarly, why this ordinary man claims to see God? A dancing dog. A devotee says that marma-hatāṁ karotu vā (Śikṣāṣṭaka 8). A devotee is always anxious to see God, but He said that "I am not qualified. So even I become broken-hearted not seeing God, still Kṛṣṇa is My Lord. I may see, or may not see. That is His mercy. But in all circumstances, He is My worshipful Lord." That is devotee. "Oh, I could not see God? I have done so much." Kṛṣṇa is not so obliged that because by concoction you think you have done something, and therefore He is obliged to come before you and dance. Kṛṣṇa is not so little.

Paramahaṁsa: In this connection you have quoted Lord Brahmā saying that . . . Lord Brahmā says that the great material scientists, they may be able to calculate the atomic structure of the material world and the planetary system, but even if Kṛṣṇa is standing right in front of them, they can't calculate His potencies.

Prabhupāda: Vivekananda liked to say . . . he challenged Ramakrishna, "Can you show me God?" He said: "Yes," and he showed him God and then he became disciple.

Paramahaṁsa: They're saying that this Balyogeshwar, people ask him, "Can you show what is God?" and he says: "Oh, yes," and then he shows them.

Prabhupāda: Where he is now, this Balyogeshwar?

Paramahaṁsa: I don't know where he is. There was one article about him recently, but they didn't say where he was. I think he was rejected. He has no . . . maybe he is trying to start his own movement. But as far as his Divine Light Mission, he is kicked out.

Prabhupāda: Kicked out by whom? By mother.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes, mother.

Prabhupāda: So mother is the authority.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Paramahaṁsa: They say that the main reasons that she gave for kicking him out were that he was going to nightclubs, and dancing and drinking and eating meat.

Prabhupāda: So he was doing all, everything.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes. So she said: "Oh, he is not Hindu," according to them.

Prabhupāda: "Then you cannot be God." (laughter)

Paramahaṁsa: So she said: "Instead, my other son is God. He is very . . ." Also, she was a little angry because Guru Maharaj-ji's wife, that American wife that he got, who used to be his secretary—after they were married, in all the temples, their āśramas all over the world, they used to have that Balyogeshwar's picture and then his mother's picture. But now they took the mother's picture down and put the wife's picture up. So the mother was very angry. Therefore she kicked them both out, and now her picture and another son is on the altar.

Prabhupāda: Another son. So they're accepting?

Paramahaṁsa: Oh, yes. He was actually popular anyway, the other son. He was almost as popular as Balyogeshwar. He's the older son. He's the one who . . . he's a jazz musician, so they like it.

Prabhupāda: Jazz? What is that jazz?

Amogha: American music.

Paramahaṁsa: Jazz.

Amogha: Rock and roll. Something like that.

Paramahaṁsa: It is modern music. Another advancement.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. So how he learned? He is Indian.

Paramahaṁsa: Well, I don't know, but he's pretty good. (laughs) His band was very popular in America.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Paramahaṁsa: They were very popular. They would travel around and do performances, and thousands of people would come. He had quite a big group of musicians, and he was the leader. He would lead the whole group. He would play the trumpet and sometimes dance.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Then Ravi Shankar is no more popular?

Paramahaṁsa: Most people think he's too puffed up.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise how they say he's God? Then? You can stop. So those who are tired can take rest. What is the local time?

Amogha: Eight-thirty.

Prabhupāda: Eight-thirty?

Paramahaṁsa: Usually when people, they don't have a very clear idea of what spiritual life is, so when they see someone who is a good musician or sometimes a good artist or something like that . . .

Prabhupāda: Material.

Paramahaṁsa: . . . sometimes they automatically think, "Oh, he must be spiritual, because he is so good at this. No one else can do it. It must be some spiritual power." So therefore someone like Ravi Shankar, they . . . a lot of people, either they become envious or they worship him as being an incarnation or something like that.

Prabhupāda: That is also stated, yad yad vibhūtimat sattvaṁ.


yad yad vibhūtimat sattvaṁ
śrīmad ūrjitam eva vā
tat tad evāvagaccha tvaṁ
mama tejo 'ṁśa-sambhavam
(BG 10.41)

"Know that all beautiful, glorious and mighty creations spring from but a spark of My splendor."

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Paramahaṁsa: "Know that all beautiful, glorious and mighty creations spring from but a spark of My splendor."

Amogha: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (offer obeisances) (end)