750516 - Morning Walk - Perth
Amogha: . . .the history of Sunday, Monday, Tuesday?
Prabhupāda: Why not Monday first?
Paramahaṁsa: Well, the sun. . .
Gaṇeśa: God created the earth, in the Bible. God started on a Monday. He created the earth. It says in the Bible in the Old Testament that it took Him seven days, or six days, and on the seventh day He rested. And still there is some dispute whether He started on a Sunday or a Monday. So the Jewish, the Hebrews, they hold the Sabbath on a Saturday, and the Christians and the Catholics, they have the Sabbath on the Sunday. But on the seventh day God rested after creating the heavens and the earths.
Śrutakīrti: It was always considered very bad to engage in any type of work on the Sabbath day. It was used only to glorify the Lord.
Amogha: Go fishing.
Paramahaṁsa: Not any more. Now the post office is closed on Saturday and open all day on Sunday in Perth.
Prabhupāda: They have changed?
Paramahaṁsa: Yes. They are open on the Sabbath.
Prabhupāda: My point is: if the moon is the first planet nearer, why they did not start Monday? If the sun is after, then Sunday. This is the proof that first sun, then moon, not that first moon and then sun. Hmm? That is the description in the Bhāgavatam. One after another, one after another. Sixteen thousand, sixteen hundred thousand miles apart. First of all sun, then moon, then, what is called? Mars. You have seen.
Amogha: Mars is above the moon?
Śrutakīrti: But the scientists wouldn't even agree that the sun is the first created thing.
Prabhupāda: Who is accepting them as scientists? You can accept them. Why Sunday first? Wherefrom they have gotten?
Śrutakīrti: That was gotten from Greek mythology.
Prabhupāda: Then Greek, where they got it?
Gaṇeśa: Some of the days are named after different demigods. Wednesday is named after a god named Woden.
Prabhupāda: Where they got these demigods?
Śrutakīrti: From Greek mythology.
Prabhupāda: Greek mythology, that's all right. But where they got?
Paramahaṁsa: Well, they say they made it up.
Amogha: But all knowledge comes from the Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Greek history is about three thousand years. (break)
(on walk) . . .during the time of Mahārāja Parīkṣit's grandson. Mahārāja Parīkṣit was the grandson of Yudhiṣṭhira, and Yudhiṣṭhira ruled over five thousand years ago. So the Yayāti. . . Mahārāja Parīkṣit. . . Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's grandson is Parīkṣit. His son is Janamejaya. And his son is Yayāti. And his son started Greek and Roman Empire. So therefore the Greek history is not more than three thousand years. Mahārāja Yayāti banished his two sons to the European quarters. Mleccha-yavana. Later on they became yavana, from Vedic culture deviated. This is the history.
Amogha: He sent them there for conquering?
Prabhupāda: Huh? No. He gave him, that "You take that place."
Amogha: Oh. "This is your kingdom."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Every, all world was emperor, the Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira and the family. Sa-sāgara. Sa-sāgara means "including all the oceans." That means the whole world. There was one flag only during the time of Mahārāja Parīkṣit. And he first saw the cow-killing maybe in Africa or in Arabia. One black man was trying to kill a cow, and Mahārāja Parīkṣit was on tour, and immediately he punished him. That is Kali. The black man means Africa. Or where other place, black men?
Paramahaṁsa: Some of the. . ., there are some natives in Asia also, southeast Asia, that are black.
Prabhupāda: Arabia? No. Arabians are not black.
Paramahaṁsa: Not. . . Generally they're not so black. Indonesians are black.
Śrutakīrti: Africa is about the only place, other than some islands.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Africa is black.
Amogha: Aborigines here also.
Paramahaṁsa: They have black natives here also, Australia.
Prabhupāda: They are all descendant of the same.
Amogha: Did the Greek civilization follow the Vedic culture?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They were worshiping demigods from the Vedas.
Paramahaṁsa: But they didn't have a very high standard.
Prabhupāda: These, these Vedic mantra, there is mention of so many demigods, how they were born. You do not know the meaning.
Paramahaṁsa: No, we are just chanting.
Prabhupāda: How, one after another, how one is born out of the. . . That is. . . How the brāhmaṇas were there, kṣatriyas were there—everything in Vedic. . . These Vedic mantra means the history of human society. And the origin is God, Kṛṣṇa, Nārāyaṇa. There are other mantras wherein it is stated, eko nārāyaṇa āsīt: "Only Nārāyaṇa was there." Neither Lord Śiva nor Brahmā. Later on, they came. When he first cites the mantra, vande mahā-puruṣa te caraṇāravindam, śiva-viriñci-nutam (SB 11.5.33), Śiva means Lord Śiva, and viriñci means Brahmā. All of them offer respect to Nārāyaṇa. Indian astrology was taken by the Arabians first. The 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, these figures were taken from India, up to 9, then 0. Then you make all mathematical, arithmetical calculation.
Amogha: The Arabic numerals came from India?
Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all they took the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. . .
Śrutakīrti: The Romans had a very complicated system.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) If you write 1975 it will become so big. (laughter)
Śrutakīrti: Yeah. Some twenty letters.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. This "Sunday, Monday," means first sun, then moon. Where they are going? They are going to hell, not in the moon. This Vedic description is right. Because first study, Sunday. . . That, we offer gāyatrī to the sun. So the moon is after the sun—this is the proof, first Sunday, then Monday. So if their calculation is 93,000,000 miles from here, and moon is one million, six thousand still farther, then where they are going? If they simply follow strictly this moon expedition and they admit they have not gone, then the whole civilization will change. All wrong conclusion. But they will have to admit now. Now they are serious, and they will have to say that they've never gone to the moon. And they will have to continue this. Otherwise they will be farce before the world. They will have to continue it. Now they are in such a position.
Paramahaṁsa: They can't just stop and say, "Okay, now we. . ."
Prabhupāda: If they stop, then they are failure.
Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. And then everyone will complain, "Oh, you wasted billions of dollars."
Prabhupāda: And if they go, then they will have the right information. But they will never be able to go.
Gaṇeśa: Just like Rāvaṇa could not reach the heavenly planets just by building the staircase.
Prabhupāda: That was his only demonic proposal, that "He make staircase." He said that "Why you are undergoing so much austerities to go to the heavenly planets? I shall make a staircase. You will go."
Amogha: How high did he make it? How high did it go?
Prabhupāda: He never attempted. He simply bluffed, that's all. So demons' proposals are like that. Therefore it is a common say in, hearsay in the, in India, that rāvaṇe sarge sidi: "The proposal is just like Rāvaṇa proposed to make a staircase to the heavenly planets." He was also very much advanced materially, very prosperous materially. Gold was very common thing. He brought gold from Brazil through the subway. His brother was king there, in southern America.
Prabhupāda: No, Mahīrāvaṇa. Mahīr. Mahīr means the Earth. He used to go through the subway, through the Earth. So on the other side there is another Rāvaṇa - that is Mahīrāvaṇa.
Gaṇeśa: He built the subway?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The subway is still there, Brazil. Somebody said?
Paramahaṁsa: Well, they found some parts of a subway there, some big tunnel. But they don't know where it goes, though.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is from Ceylon to Brazil, subway. And Rāvaṇa's civilization, Rāmacandra's fight, some millions of years ago. That is in the Tretā-yuga. The duration of Kali-yuga is about, say, four lakhs of years. And Dvāpara-yuga, eight lakhs of years. And then Tretā-yuga, twelve lakhs of years.
Paramahaṁsa: About two million years ago, Tretā-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, why? Twenty lakhs, ah, two million, yes. Two millions of years ago the Rāvaṇa's civilization was there, and he was so prosperous. He had aeroplane. The Zeppelin? Zeppelin?
Amogha: Jet plane?
Prabhupāda: Not jet, Zeppelin.
Amogha: Oh, with the air and gas inside.
Prabhupāda: Yes. His son's name was Meghadūta. He was flying above the cloud. Therefore his name was Megha. Megha means cloud. They were so much advanced in civilization.
Paramahaṁsa: What kind of civilization was in South America at that time?
Prabhupāda: The same like.
Prabhupāda: Therefore these Mexicans, South American, they resemble therefore almost Indian body.
Amogha: They also eat food. . . They eat a food similar to the cāpāṭi.
Prabhupāda: Cāpāṭi, in Middle East also they eat.
Gaṇeśa: Yes, in Lebanon.
Paramahaṁsa: In Tehran we saw those big cāpāṭis.
Paramahaṁsa: Six feet long.
Prabhupāda: Yes, so big. One cāpāṭi is sufficient for the whole family. (laughter) They are sold in market, purchased.
Śrutakīrti: Very cheaply.
Paramahaṁsa: Only three or four cents apiece.
Prabhupāda: They don't make much profit. That is the oriental culture. They make little profit, they are satisfied. Still in India you will find many hotel, very cheap, very cheap. Especially Muhammadan hotels. Still, by paying eight annas, you can get full meal.
Gaṇeśa: When Rāvaṇa was on the earth, was the whole earth populated, like Brazil and also the other parts of the world?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere population. This is a new theory of the rascals that there was no civilization before three thousand years. This is a wrong theory. Everything was there.
Gaṇeśa: So when Mahārāja Yayāti banished his sons to those kingdoms, they were already populated there.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Paramahaṁsa: They seem to be pretty much kṣatriya races.
Prabhupāda: And during Kurukṣetra fight, all different kings joined, either to this party or that party.
Amogha: Oh, from all over the world.
Prabhupāda: It was first-grade world war, Kurukṣetra. There is the one king, Śaibya, so he came from Śibiya. Where is Śibiya?
Amogha: Oh, Śibiya? That's Africa.
Prabhupāda: No, maybe there. There were. . . All the kings of the world, they joined either this party or that party. Friends, friendly countries, they joined. Just like Kṛṣṇa. He personally joined Arjuna, but He gave His soldiers to Duryodhana. It was family war. So the friends divided, "I will join you." It was sporting. For the kṣatriya, fighting is sporting, just like football match. They did not take it as enmities. Just in the evening they are friends. This party goes to that party, that party goes to. . . It is a decision who will be king, that's all. Test of strength. Actually it was not enmity. "Let us fight, and who is strong, he will be king," that's all.
Gaṇeśa: And the losers will go to the heavenly planets.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone who dies in such fight, he goes to heavenly planet.
Gaṇeśa: So they were not afraid of dying.
Prabhupāda: No, why? They knew, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20): "I am not going to die after the annihilation of this body." It was a common understanding. Not that such a man, big man, director, he says, "No, no, I don't believe in the soul." (chuckles) Therefore I said the fourth-class man. In India still, even a common man, uneducated farmer, he believes. He believes. He believes in God. He believes in transmigration. He believes in his karma. These things which will take thousands of years to be learned by the Westerners, even the common man knows still.
Gaṇeśa: And all Kṛṣṇa's soldiers were killed?
Amogha: So Kṛṣṇa fought against His own soldiers also.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa did not fight.
Amogha: Oh, that's right.
Prabhupāda: He did not.
Amogha: But He led the fight.
Prabhupāda: He was chariot driver at the risk of being killed. The other party may kill the chariot driver to stop the progress of the enemy. They kill. They kill the horses, they kill the charioteer, then the person. So Kṛṣṇa took the risk of being killed. Bhīṣma attacked Him. He pierced His body with arrows. (pause)
Gaṇeśa: I think the tribes in South America, the Aztecs, they were also worshipers of the sun-god.
Gaṇeśa: They had very much gold. And the Spanish, they came and plundered the gold.
Prabhupāda: The Aborigines here, they have got any religion?
Prabhupāda: Here in Australia.
Amogha: Do the Aborigines have any religion here?
Gaṇeśa: Well, they mostly worship ghosts and spirits, I think. Trees.
Prabhupāda: So there is religion. Yānti bhūtāni bhūtejyā (BG 9.25). (pause) What is this "UJV"?
Amogha: That is the license plate.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. What is the. . . Generally, the city's name are there.
Gaṇeśa: Well, it usually has a U before the initials. I don't know why.
Amogha: Generally, they make them all. . . Each one is a little bit different.
Gaṇeśa: Was Mahīrāvaṇa also a demon?
Gaṇeśa: What happened to him?
Prabhupāda: He was killed by Rāmacandra.
Paramahaṁsa: He was called by his brother, wasn't he. . .?
Paramahaṁsa: . . .to Ceylon in the battle?
Prabhupāda: No, he made a plan to kill Rāmacandra.
Paramahaṁsa: Rāmacandra made a plan?
Prabhupāda: No, Mahīrāvaṇa. And in that plan he was killed. (break) That is Indo-European civilization. The kings came from India, and he developed. Therefore it is called Indo-European civilization.
Paramahaṁsa: The scientists and the archaeologists are very amazed to find the structures, the buildings that they had in their civilization. They can't understand how they were built, such huge pillars and gigantic stones. They don't know how they were put into place.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, the Jagannātha temple is also like that. They suggest that they manufacture, and then they surround with sand, then further manufacture. And when it is complete, the sand is taken away. Otherwise how it . . . (indistinct) . . .. The sand is stacked, just like this. The temple is being manufactured, and the sand is thrown all side, and when it is finished, the sand is taken away.
Gaṇeśa: The temple is manufactured in the sand?
Prabhupāda: No, as usual. Just like they dig well. They dig well. They begin immediately, and then you dig the earth, and the structure goes down. Then again, then again, like that. They were experts. They were experts, to construct. . . Labor is cheap. That time, practically there was no labor cost. At the present moment, on account of the factories, the labor cost has increased. Otherwise the laborers, they were. . ., they have no sufficient employment. So two annas, four annas. I was paying labor, four annas, say, in 1930s. Four annas. In Allahabad I was paying four annas. He would work whole day. In Bombay, eight annas.
Gaṇeśa: They also have the big structures in Egypt, the pyramids.
Amogha: Perhaps they used sand also.
Paramahaṁsa: The Greeks say that they built their buildings. . . They hired some very big men called cyclopses, big giants. And they came and built all the buildings.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And such stories are in Mahābhārata also. The demons were engaged, giants and demons, for construction. Yes. And they were very good artist, how to do it. Now we employ the first-class men, so-called first-class engineering, but they were meant for the demons and giants. Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Well, that explains how they built such fantastic temples and palaces.
Amogha: Some people say, "Why don't we see any giants any more today?"
Prabhupāda: Yes. In the Africa, there were many giants, very high, very strong.
Gaṇeśa: Where is that?
Paramahaṁsa: In Africa some of the natives, very big, eight feet tall.
Prabhupāda: Very tall.
Gaṇeśa: In South America also, they used to have the Amazons, a big race.
Paramahaṁsa: Didn't one demon construct a big parliament house for Kṛṣṇa? That demon Māyā? For King Yudhiṣṭhira?
Amogha: Aṣṭa-siddhi dāsa, when he came back from Fiji, he told us a story that the local people say that Kāliya snake, after he ran away, he lives in Fiji in a big lake.
Gaṇeśa: On top of a mountain.
Paramahaṁsa: That's the . . . (indistinct) . . .?
Amogha: I'm not sure about that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he was driven away from Vṛndāvana. (pause) (heavy traffic noise) They are all going to the downtown?
Amogha: Does that street lead downtown?
Gaṇeśa: Yes. To the factory areas also, in Fremantle.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Where is the factory area?
Gaṇeśa: About ten miles down the coast. They have very big factories, very bad pollution. Big factories down south, in one place called Fremantle. It's a little way down.
Prabhupāda: Three miles?
Prabhupāda: Ten miles. How long it will take to go and come?
Amogha: To the factory?
Prabhupāda: No, that area.
Gaṇeśa: It takes about one hour to go down there.
Prabhupāda: One hour?
Gaṇeśa: Three quarters of an hour.
Prabhupāda: For ten miles?
Gaṇeśa: It's a lot of traffic.
Prabhupāda: Oh. What factories they have got?
Gaṇeśa: Big, big steel factories.
Prabhupāda: Steel factory.
Gaṇeśa: Yes. Also aluminium factories.
Prabhupāda: Aluminium. And still, there is problem. That man said?
Amogha: Yes. He said the bauxite mineral, the multinational or international companies are exploiting, interested in exploiting the bauxite minerals to make much aluminium.
Prabhupāda: Now aluminium is in great demand for manufacturing airplane. They are all manufactured from aluminium. (someone shouts "Wankers" in distance) What does he say?
Amogha: I think he was barking. (laughter)
Paramahaṁsa: Just a rākṣasa.
Amogha: When we walk in the city in Perth the young people, many people, they say, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." They say, "Oh, there is Hare Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: There was a newspaper clipping in the Bhagavad-gītā. I saw.
Gaṇeśa: Oh, yes, that is mine. It was about three years ago, three or four years ago. They put one article. Amogha was supposed to come over from Sydney. I was not even a devotee then, but still, they put this article that there were three devotees in Perth chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Amogha: That was because I was going to Indonesia, and I stopped here on the way.
Gaṇeśa: Many people in Perth, they have the books. About one and a half years ago we were over here, and we were distributing the big Kṛṣṇa books and the Bhagavad-gītā. Many books.
Prabhupāda: So you are not distributing now?
Gaṇeśa: Yes, we are still distributing. Only around Christmas in Perth. During the rest of the time of the year, it is not very crowded.
Amogha: When we came over here, we stayed in a hotel before we found the house about ten days ago. And when we came to the motel, the lady said, "Oh, someone has left this book here." And she gave us a Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. (pause) Yesterday the United States attacked and sank three Cambodian boats. They are fighting because the Cambodian Communists, the new government, captured one United States freighter. So now they are beginning to try to take it back. (pause) (bus passes) The bus is empty again.
Prabhupāda: A very good bus.
Paramahaṁsa: Practically every one of these cars only has one person in it.
Gaṇeśa: So actually, they have not advanced technologically from the civilizations of Rāvaṇa's time.
Prabhupāda: That is not civilization. Technological advancement is not civilization. It is the advancement of ugra knowledge. Real civilization is to advance in Brahman knowledge. If there are brāhmaṇas, that is advancement. This is not advancement, because they do not know what is advancement. They have no knowledge that "I have to die, and I have to accept another body after death." They do not know it. So long this body is there, they are trying to have very comfortable position. But they do not know that after this body, he has to accept another body. So how this technology will help him? If, in this life, by technological advancement you live very comfortably, and next life you become a dog, then where is the advancement? That they do not know. Suppose. . . We have got visa for two weeks?
Paramahaṁsa: Three weeks.
Prabhupāda: Three weeks. Now, if in Perth I begin one big skyscraper building, and then after three weeks I am kicked out, then is that very good intelligence? I know that I shall remain here for three weeks, and if I begin one skyscraper building, and then, during the time of constructing or, say, after the construction is finished, I am kicked out, then where is that intelligence? Just like Napoleon. He wanted to construct that arch. You have not seen.
Paramahaṁsa: Yes, I have seen.
Prabhupāda: But he could not finish it. So this is his intelligence. Such a big man, Napoleon, that is his intelligence. And what to speak of others. Everyone knows that "I will have to die," and when death will come, nobody knows. At any moment it may come. So he will not be able to enjoy what he is doing, but still, he is doing. And his real business is forgotten. His real business is to stop his birth and death process and go back to home, back to Godhead. That is his real business. He does not know the real. . . Therefore they are called mūḍhas. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). So it is a civilization of the mūḍhas, fourth-class men.
Gaṇeśa: Should the devotees think that "Any moment, I can die"?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. Why they will think? It is a fact. There is English proverb, "There is many dangers between the cups and the lips." You are going to drink tea. The distance is: here is cup and here is lip. There may be many dangers. So suppose in drinking tea there is some choking within the throat, and coughing, you may die immediately. You are so much under the control of nature. Little mistake will cause your death, little mistake. And conditioned life means we commit mistake, we are illusioned, we cheat and our knowledge is imperfect. This is conditioned life.
Amogha: I telephoned that geographer yesterday to talk to him, and he said that "What Swāmījī said was true, but how can. . .?" He said, "It will be very difficult to apply, because most people, they are not interested." But he says it was very. . . He could understand that it was true, what you were saying. He may also come again to talk more.
Prabhupāda: Yes, let him come. Let him come. People may take or not take, but he is inquisitive gentleman. Let him understand. People. . . We are preaching. Who is taking? Mass of people, they are not taking it. But still, we are doing that. That is our duty. People may take or not take, but a God's servant must speak the truth. Just like Jesus Christ. He was crucified. Nobody took his words. But he did it. If people would have accepted his philosophy, then why he was crucified by the judges? It was done by the judges, Roman judges. So this is the position of the world. Socrates was killed because he said that there is soul. This is the defect of Western civilization. They want vox populi. What is that vox populi? Huh?
Prabhupāda: Vox populi. You know this word?
Śrutakīrti: Yeah, Latin.
Amogha: Vox populi
Prabhupāda: Latin, yes. People's vote. The people may be asses, but still, their votes will be taken, the vox populi. The fourth-class, fifth-class men, and they are giving vote. And the mistake is detected. Just like this Nixon was voted, and the mistake was detected. But still, they follow the same process, vox populi. What is the value of the votes of the fourth-class, fifth-class men? Better one intelligent man, if he knows things, if he is liberated, if he says, "This is right," that should be taken. That is Vedic civilization. We are accepting Kṛṣṇa. We are not accepting the vox populi. One person, the Supreme, that's all. This is our process. We don't accept vox populi. All these Vedic literature are accepted not on the people's vote, but who is presenting? Vyāsadeva is presenting, Kṛṣṇa is presenting, Parāśara Muni is presenting. Therefore they are accepted. You cannot expect the mass of people very intelligent. That is not possible. So what is the value of their votes if they are not intelligent?
But in the Western countries this is the disease, vox populi. Socrates said there is soul, and he was killed because vox populi was against. Christ was killed because vox populi was against. This is the defect of the Western civilization. During the lifetime of Christ, nobody accepted. When he was killed, or crucified, then the other saintly persons, they gave their experience, what they learned from Jesus Christ. Christ could not give any words. Some sporadic words were there, and the Bible was made on that basis. Actually, the Bible is not the word, directly words, of Christ.
Amogha: That must be why it says. . . It says, "The Gospel According to John," "The Gospel According to Mark."
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.
Gaṇeśa: Even his disciples denounced him when they were going to crucify him. They said, "Oh, I do not know Jesus." (long pause) (break)
Prabhupāda: . . .they are after zeros. Caitanya Mahāprabhu sa. . ., śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me (Śikṣāṣṭaka 7). Śūnyāyitam means zero. (break) (out of car) Advancement of civilization is zero. If you add many thousands of zero, does the value increases?
Prabhupāda: It remains zero.
Amogha: Big zero.
Prabhupāda: There must be one. Then it will increase the value. That one, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, will make this material civilization hundred times important. And without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are all zeros. (break) . . .next life, supposing hypothetically I am going to be a dog, then what is this civilization? But that you cannot say, "No, I am not going to be dog," because you do not know. You are under the. . ., completely under the grip of material nature. And there are cats and dogs. How you can guarantee that you are not going to be a dog? Kṛṣṇa says dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). You will get another body. So how you can say that "No, I am not going to be a dog"? You cannot say; you are not independent. You cannot make your choice. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). By your work, it will be decided by higher authorities. Then how you can say, "No, no, I am not. . . There is no life, there is no. . ." It is all nonsense. Therefore without this knowledge, all this material opulence, it is all zero. It may be some fact for fifty or sixty years, but the world is not for fifty or sixty years—for millions and millions of years. (end)