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750927 - Conversation Hindi - Ahmedabad

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

750927R1-AHMEDABAD - September 27, 1975 - 20:28 Minutes

(Hindi translated into English)

Prabhupāda: So if they are not educated and remain in darkness, of what use is this kind of education? If he does not know what body he is going to acquire in the future and the body he will acquire is from 8,400,000 species of life, sarva-yoniu. What is the body I will acquire, if he does not know of what use is such education? If today I am a big man and after body change I become a dog, so of what use was my being a "Big man" today? It is clearly said, tathā dehāntara-prāptir. He does not say that because you are a human being Arjuna, you will get a human body the next birth also.

Man: Some people say that . . .

Prabhupada: Do not talk about what "some" people say: "Talk about what God says." If some foolish people say something do we have to accept it? It is not about "some" people, that is the difficulty now. These ordinary people speak, what is the benefit of this?

Man: Brahmakumaris say that once you are born a man then you will always remain a human being . . .

Prabhupada: So if they say so does that happen likewise?

Man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupada: God says:

ḻrdhva gacchanti sattva-sthā
madhye tihanti rājasā
adho gacchanti tāmasā

(indistinct) . . . is he bigger than God? This goes on. This cheating should be stopped.

andhā yathāndhair upaniyamānās

A standard . . . when God is telling you how to live, how to work so that you will be happy. God says, suhridam sarva-bhutanam: "I am the friend of everybody", suhrt, well-wisher. So why do we not accept the words of our well-wisher? God has not said, suhridam hindunaam, bharatiyanaam. Suhridam sarva-bhutanam.

The way in which every living entity is benefited, I am also included in that "Every living entity" and am benefited. So why do we not accept this thing? Even if we forget everything else but the first instruction God gives Arjuna initially in the Bhagavad Gita is this sloka that, you are fighting this war identifying yourself with the body and that is not good for you.

asocyān anvasocas tva
prajṣā-vādās ca bhāase

"You are talking like a learned man but you are foolish." This is what He has said. You are talking as though you are a very learned man but you are actually very foolish. Why?

gatāsḻn agatāsḻs ca
nānusocanti paitā

"You are talking in terms the bodily concept of life, this is not the talk of a learned man." So he is foolish! If he is not a learned man then he is a foolish man! You are talking like a foolish man. So all the things happening in this material world is all in the bodily concept of life. I am an Indian, I am American, I am Hindu, I am Muslim, I am Pakistani, I am a Hindustani- all this is based on the bodily concept of life. Nānusocanti paitā. So nobody is learned, all are foolish. Am I saying the correct thing or not, see? The scriptures further say: yasyatma-buddhih kunape tridhatuke

this body is a bag made up of bile, mucus, cough etc., those who are so self-immersed in this, sa eva go-khara, anima! So how you can become happy in the society of "go-khara." Bring some big dogs and tell them, "Boy, do not bark, sit here quietly." Will he remain so? He is after all a dog. (laughs) Similarly we have this UNESCO which is trying to promote peach programs for the last thirty years, they are all barking only. What peace can they bring about? It is not in their nature only. And God is telling us the program for peace:

bhoktaram yajna-tapasam
suhridam sarva-bhutanam
jnatva mam santim ricchati

"I am the enjoyer." So in reality God is the only enjoyer. Who has created all these things? This house is made by Bhogilal Seth, so who will be the enjoyer he or me? I can be a guest. So similarly God has made everything so He will be the enjoyer also. So why are we trying to enjoy? Isavasyam idam sarvam.

Everything belongs to God and we are taking the property of God and becoming thieves. Stena eva sa ucyate. And a thief can never be peaceful. Can a person whose business is to steal ever by peaceful? So it is my request that at least in Gujarat there must be a good discussion and debate on this issue! Men are deluded by talking all nonsensical talk. Even if you understand this one thing, tathā dehāntara-prāptir, if you understand this alone, that is why I am telling you this and I spoke to you about it earlier also, then his life will be successful. Just this one point, not more. Then slowly everything else will happen. It is the correct statement dehāntara-prāptir, the Lord is himself saying:

dehino 'smin yathā dehe
kaumāra yauvana jarā
tathā dehāntara-prāptir.

This everyone can understand. If a young man says I will not become old, then that is not possible. He has to become old.

prakrteh kriyamanani
gunaih karmani sarvasah

What is that verse? Prakrti-stho, karanam guna-sango. Find out this verse. There is such a storehouse of knowledge in India and they are taking it and how much pride India should take in this. This whole world is foolish and does not know anything—the same bodily concept of life, nationalism that is all going on. And we have to accept another body, dehāntara-prāptir, this they do not know. Today we are in this nation but we will get another body. So whatever we did in this life is all wasted.

purusah prakrti-stho hi
bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan
karanam guna-sango 'sya

"The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil among various species."

(reads purport)

"This verse is very important for an understanding of how the living entities transmigrate from one body to another. It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord it over material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances. Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature."

"How he is put into such different bodies is explained here. It is due to association with the different modes of nature. One has to rise, therefore, above the three material modes and become situated in the transcendental position. That is called Krsna consciousness. Unless one is situated in Krsna consciousness, his material consciousness will oblige him to transfer from one body to another because he has material desires since time immemorial. But he has to change that conception. That change can be effected only by hearing from authoritative sources. The best example is here: Arjuna is hearing the science of God from Krsna. The living entity, if he submits to this hearing process, will lose his long-cherished desire to dominate material nature, and gradually and proportionately, as he reduces his long desire to dominate, he comes to enjoy spiritual happiness. In a Vedic mantra it is said that as he becomes learned in association with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he proportionately relishes his eternal blissful life."

purusah prakrti-stho hi
bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan
karanam guna-sango 'sya

Whatever he associates with goodness, passion and ignorance.

ḻrdhva gacchanti sattva-sthā
madhye tihanti rājasā
adho gacchanti tāmasā

How he can check if he is jaghanya-guna-vrtti. So he is going downward. How his present position will check it? That is not possible.

Audience member: Education.

So our little endeavor is that you have got such a vast knowledge, treasure house of knowledge and instead of distributing this if you remain in darkness then what is the benefit?

It is the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, bharat bhumite manusya haila janma yara janma sarthaka kare karo upakara.

Para upakara. Because the whole world is in darkness.

ḻrdhva gacchanti sattva-sthā
madhye tihanti rājasā
adho gacchanti tāmasā

"Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets; those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; and those in the abominable mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds."

(reads purport)

"In this verse the results of actions in the three modes of nature are more explicitly set forth. There is an upper planetary system, consisting of the heavenly planets, where everyone is highly elevated. According to the degree of development of the mode of goodness, the living entity can be transferred to various planets in this system. The highest planet is Satyaloka, or Brahmaloka, where the prime person of this universe, Lord Brahmā, resides. We have seen already that we can hardly calculate the wondrous condition of life in Brahmaloka, but the highest condition of life, the mode of goodness, can bring us to this."

"The mode of passion is mixed. It is in the middle, between the modes of goodness and ignorance. A person is not always pure, but even if he should be purely in the mode of passion, he will simply remain on this earth as a king or a rich man. But because there are mixtures, one can also go down. People on this earth, in the mode of passion or ignorance, cannot forcibly approach the higher planets by machine. In the mode of passion, there is also the chance of becoming mad in the next life."

"The lowest quality, the mode of ignorance, is described here as abominable. The result of developing ignorance is very, very risky. It is the lowest quality in material nature. Beneath the human level there are eight million species of life—birds, beasts, reptiles, trees, etc.—and according to the development of the mode of ignorance, people are brought down to these abominable conditions. The word tāmasā is very significant here. Tāmasā indicates those who stay continuously in the mode of ignorance without rising to a higher mode. Their future is very dark."

"There is an opportunity for men in the modes of ignorance and passion to be elevated to the mode of goodness, and that system is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But one who does not take advantage of this opportunity will certainly continue in the lower modes."

In the Bhagavat it is said:

nashta-prayeshv abhadreshu
nityam bhagavata-sevaya
bhagavaty uttama-sloke
bhaktir bhavati naishthiki
tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvā
kāma-lobhādayas ca ye
ceta etair anāviddha
sthita sattve prasidati

A human being should be brought into the mode of goodness. This is education. If he remains in mode of ignorance then what is the use of such education?

adho gacchanti tāmasā?

We have to accept another body, dehāntara-prāptir. But how it is to be done should be taught. Where do they teach on this subject, where is such education?

Man: Secular religion?

Prabhupada: This is not religion, this is science. Religion is very far away. This is dehāntara-prāptir. Like an infection or disease say small pox, you will be infected by small pox. This is not religion, this is science. Karanam guna-sango. So if you are infected with small pox then you have to suffer it. Where is religion in this? When you are a human being then only there will be religion, dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam.

When you are connected to God then it is religion? Otherwise what religion is this? Is concoction of the mind a religion? Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam.

Are there concocted laws? No. the laws are laid down by the Government. Similarly what is the meaning of religion? Religion is the laws given by God. God says, sarva-dharmān parityajya.

This is religion. And whatever you have manufactured this is all bogus! So give it up. This is religion, mām eka saraa vraja.

This is called religion. But who are the takers of this religion? This is also said:

na mā duktino mḻhā
prapadyante narādhamā
āsura bhāvam āúritā

God is asking us to surrender. But who does not surrender to Him? The miscreants, lowest of the mankind and the foolish, māyayāpahta-jṣānā, āsura? bhāvam.

So does that mean it is all over? No.

bahunam janmanam ante
jnanavan mam prapadyate

After roaming around for many births when one acquires knowledge in reality then he understands:

vasudevah sarvam iti
sa mahatma su-durlabhah

One will take birth, tathā dehāntara-prāptir so we need to teach them that they have got this birth now, acquire knowledge, worship God and make life successful. Otherwise what is the use of acquiring knowledge of hammering?

Hare Krishna. Jaya! (end)