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751007 - Morning Walk - Durban

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



751007MW-DURBAN - October 07, 1975 - 51:36 Minutes



(in car)

Prabhupāda: "Please give up this post. Go away." "Why?" "Why? No 'why.' Give up. Die immediately." "All right, what can I do?" "No protest. No. You must immediately vacate." "How things will go on? I am prime minister?" That, "Nonsense . . . I'll kick your on the face. Get out." Then he has to accept, and he is prime minister. He has to accept the order of nature, prakṛti. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi, ahaṅkāra (BG 3.27). And still he says, "I am. I am. I am lord. I am minister. I am this. I am that."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ahaṅkāra.

Prabhupāda: Ahaṅkāra vimūḍhātmā. Rascal. Not only ahaṅkāra vimūḍhātmā; no knowledge. Such a big, very big rascals, Stalin, Lenin, when nature ordered, "Die now. Finish your business . . ." And still, they are proud. I am doing all these things, and where is the guarantee that I shall stay here? At any moment I shall be asked to go away. No sense. First of all make it assured that you shall be able to remain here. "No. That is not . . . I shall . . . When I . . . I'll go away. Let me do it."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So they say now, Prabhupāda, that there's no soul, and life is just a combination of elements.

Prabhupāda: Soul, your . . . It will take many millions of years to understand soul, but this is your position; you understand it, that you'll be kicked out at any moment. Why don't you understand this? There is no question of understanding soul. That is far away. (break)

(in car)

Prabhupāda: Why? That is not good. People will be lazy. In special cases the government may give some help, not that the bachelor daddies, and getting welfare, all the girls, and going to be prostitutes. In America they have created purposefully prostitutes. They know they will get money, and they have illicit sex. That's all. The social condition is not good.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (aside to driver:) You can go down by the Strand. (break) . . .parks here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but they open up later.

Prabhupāda: Oh. When they open?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: About seven-thirty. Botanical gardens. (break)

Prabhupāda: These are owned by Indians?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These are some Muslim shops and Indian shops mostly. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . .are employed in the factory?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Very menial labor, driving trucks and delivery and . . . Gokulendra, when he went to . . .

Prabhupāda: They are given equal facility for education?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. When Gokulendra went to England he saw a European man with a pick in his hand, and he couldn't believe it, because in South Africa you never see a European person with a pick opening up the street. Only the Africans do things like that. And they'll have one European man standing there, directing. He'll make so much money. (break)

Prabhupāda: Indians are taken within the group of black? No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, they have "white" and "non-white." So technically speaking, they can classify all of the Indians as non-white. But at the same time, there is more division, and they have Indian community, and they have the colored community and the African community.

Prabhupāda: The government officer, responsible post, they are offered to the Indians? No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Government?

Prabhupāda: Government responsible post.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The police?

Prabhupāda: No, not police. Any responsible office.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: They are equally open? No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They have facility. The philosophy of the government is that they have separate development. This is why they call it apartheid, that they have separate hospitals for the Indians, they have separate schools.

Prabhupāda: And for the black?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: For the Africans? They don't have so much now. Very poor facility.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So the government gives facilities to the Indians, but separately.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Not with them.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not with them.

Prabhupāda: That is not bad.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It has preserved, little bit, the feeling of Hinduism here.

Prabhupāda: And for the black people there is no hospital?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have hospitals also, but not as good facility, because there are so many, and they haven't developed it sufficiently.

Prabhupāda: Medical help is free? No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: It is to be paid.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But it is very inexpensive.

Prabhupāda: Education?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (aside:) I don't think that education is free for Africans, is it?

Devotee (1): It's very, very cheap, but not for the colored, of course. (?) There are probably many more African schools than European schools. Because there are so many Africans, it's very difficult to . . . (indistinct) . . ..

Prabhupāda: On the whole, the white man is governing.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, completely.

Prabhupāda: They are keeping, governing. This is Indian house. Eh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. This is Indian shopping, all Indian shops here. From here back is all Indian.

Prabhupāda: So the European come here to shop, for shopping?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: They are Indians or, these, white?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Muslim. Most of these Muslims originally from Gujarat side. Their forefathers came here.

Prabhupāda: They are called Bohras (?). (pronounces "Bureez") Bohras Muslim.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bohras Muslim.

Prabhupāda: They were formerly Hindus. All Muslims were Hindus formerly.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have an Islamic propagation center here, and I went there. I was walking by one day. They invited me in. So they began to blaspheme this and that. So I asked them, "What is your conception of God?" He said, "God is beyond conception." So I told him that "Therefore you cannot say that Kṛṣṇa is God and you cannot say that Kṛṣṇa is not God, because you don't know what God is."

Prabhupāda: Then what did he say?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He couldn't reply.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you have no conception of God, how can you deny or accept? Remain fool, that's all. That is the difficulty. When you ask them, whole world, "What is the conception of God?" they'll not be able to answer. Still, they will say there is no God. This is the foolishness going on all over the world. Actually they are not concerned with God. They accept the idea of God or so-called God for their material facilities: "O God, give us our daily bread." That's all. "If You supply daily bread, then I accept You. Otherwise I reject You." This is their . . . When there is a war, Churchill will ask them to go, victory, "V": "Go and pray to God." God is order-supplier. And when they declare war, they do not consult God. When there is reverse condition they go to it. This is going on, that God means order-supplier. "Whatever I desire, if You are God then You supply me. Otherwise I reject You." What they will understand, intimate relationship with God, to serve Him as father, as mother, as friend? What they will understand, these rascals? It is not possible. They have no idea of God. Therefore they cannot understand. God is asking, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). "What is this?" They cannot understand. Therefore they misinterpret. What is this?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is, er . . . This is one park, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There is less wind here than on the beach.

Prabhupāda: No, we can go to the beach. What is that? If it is closed . . .

(break) (on walk)

The Indians are also coming to that point. The beginning is the rascal Vivekananda. He says, "Where you are searching God? Don't you see so many gods are loitering in the street, poor? Better you serve them. Why do you go to the temple?" This is their propaganda. That means no conception of God. The Ārya-samājīs also, they say, "There is no God in the temple." So in India the Jains, they also say, "There is no God." The Buddhists, they also say, "There is no God." The Christians, they have got very vague idea. So where is God? No God. It is only we are crying, "Here is God." Otherwise, whole world, they are trying to banish God, the Kaṁsa's policy, "Kill God," whole world. The Communists, total. This is our position. (pause) Is it wet?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Very, very slightly. Not much. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . .is interested in God throughout the whole world, cent percent. We are simply canvassing, "Here is God. Take to God." This is our position. And still, some of you are cooperating with me. That is good fortune. Otherwise, nobody is interested in God. Nobody. They have no idea of God. They are not interested in God. Still, we are predominant, or people know us as Hare Kṛṣṇa people. This is our good luck. Nobody . . . My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "There is no scarcity of anything in this world. Only scarcity is Kṛṣṇa consciousness." He used to say like that.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a way to go down here, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a way to go down to the right over here, to walk.

Prabhupāda: No, we can walk on this. This is nice.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is okay?

Harikeśa: Is that a hill?

Prabhupāda: This is open. We can walk. (break) Nirākāra, impersonalist, "God is formless"—that is another way of denying God, gentlemanly way of denying God. "Yes, there is God, but He has no head." (chuckles) What kind of God? "He has no head. He has no tail, He has no leg, He has . . . He cannot see. He cannot eat." Then what He is? This is another way of denying God. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . .reasonable to put forward the argument that if man can do all of these things, then God must be able to do at least those things plus more.

Prabhupāda: No. God has no head, then what can He do?

Devotee (2): I asked one lady, she said, "God wants to test your faith that . . . Ultimately He has no form, but He wants to test your faith to see if you . . ."

Prabhupāda: No, how He'll test? He has no head. How He'll test? Unless one has got head, how he can act with brain? Where you get this idea that one has no head, still he has got brain? Where you get this idea? Hmm? The brain substance is within the head. This is our experience. So where do you get this idea that He has no head and still He has got brain? Hmm? What is the answer?

Harikeśa: They will say that God is man's conception.

Prabhupāda: That means . . . You say directly, "There is no God. It is a false conception only." You say directly, that is understandable. But why do you say all these nonsense, that "God is there, but He has no head, He has no tail, He has no hands, He has no . . .?" What is this? Tell directly that "There is no God." The Buddhists say, "There is no God." That is understandable. Why do you cheat? The Christian also believe like that?

Harikeśa: Nowadays they do.

Prabhupāda: Oh. What do they?

Harikeśa: When we went to Hyderabad we spoke to the Archbishop, and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami asked him, "What is God?" And he said, "Well, nowadays there are so many theories as to what is God."

Prabhupāda: Theories.

Harikeśa: Actually nobody knows.

Prabhupāda: Just see. A head of religious group, and he says, "There are so many theories." And this rascal is the head of the group. So what is the group?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They must be rascals too.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Devotee (2): Well, sometimes . . . Just like in the Kṛṣṇa Book, how Kṛṣṇa spoke to Kaṁsa out of the air, they say, "Well, God speaks, but you can't see Him. But you can hear Him. He speaks sometimes out of the air."

Prabhupāda: Then God speaks. Then speaks means He has got mouth. Otherwise how He speaks?

Devotee (2): But they say, "Well, we couldn't see Him."

Prabhupāda: But you cannot see. Suppose there is some sound comes from the upstairs but you cannot see, but that does not mean that he is not there. This is nonsense. As soon as hear, he is speaking, he has got his mouth, he has got his head, he has got his brain. Everything comes, one point. And if you are rascal, fool—you cannot understand—that is another thing. Somebody is speaking from there. I hear, but I cannot see. Does it mean that he is not there? That is rascal said. Intelligent man will say, "As soon as there is something, immediately you can understand . . ."

Harikeśa: Well, God is so great, He . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like there is sunshine, immediately we can understand there is fire. Therefore heat and light is there. It is common sense. And the sunshine is there, and "There is no fire. There is no heat"—what is this nonsense? Therefore they, all of them are rascals and nonsense, who talks foolishly like that.

Harikeśa: Well, God is so great He doesn't require a mouth to speak.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: He is so great; He doesn't require a mouth to speak.

Prabhupāda: He doesn't require? Then where . . .? But where do you get, you rascal, where do you get this idea that without mouth one can speak?

Harikeśa: Well, all the energy can just flow any way He wants.

Prabhupāda: No, where you get this idea? You are manufacturing, but you are rascal, so your manufacturing has no value. First of all prove that without mouth one can speak. Where is that idea? Where you get this idea?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even when we preach to these Christians . . . There's one passage in the Bible that says that "Man is created in the image of God." And so we show them that "This is God, Kṛṣṇa," and they say, "No, no, no, no, no. Can't be." But still, the image is there, that man has an image, a likeness, to God. He has two arms. He has two eyes. But still, they can't accept if we say that Kṛṣṇa is God.

Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. They'll . . .

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Envious.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is rascaldom. They'll . . .

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They say He must be a very old man. He must be very old, with a big, long beard.

Prabhupāda: So that we shall consider later on. He is a man-like. First of all accept that. Then whether He is old or young, we shall consider later on. First of all accept that, either old or young, He is a man-like shape, form. Then we shall talk other things. Then what is the use of talking with them, with a rascal? That is the point. There is no use talking with these rascals. Waste of time.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But there's practically no one to preach to if we don't preach to them.

Prabhupāda: They are rascals. What is the use? That is advised, prema-maitri kṛpopekṣā (SB 11.2.46), four things. Preacher—there are four things for him. One thing is that he should love God. He should make friendship with devotees, he should preach amongst the innocent, and he should kick on the face of the atheist. Upekṣā. "Hut! (laughter) I don't like you." That's all. No business with him. This is preacher. Preacher should love God; preacher should make friendship with devotees; preacher will preach amongst the innocent, poor; and those who are atheist, nonbeliever, kick on his face. Don't care for him. "Go away. Get out." That's all. That much mercy upon them. "Get out, rascal." But sometimes we take the risk of talking with these rascals also. That is our mercy. But according to śāstra, they are to be kicked out. They are not to be taken care of, because it is waste of time.

Harikeśa: They just don't want to accept, no matter what.

Prabhupāda: No, no, even they have no argument, they have no logic, so what is the use of talking? What is the use? Simply waste of time.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So is it better if someone argues against our philosophy or if someone doesn't argue at all and simply doesn't accept it either?

Prabhupāda: No, if he argues . . . If you can understand that by argument if we come to conclusion, they will accept, then talk with them. If they remain dog, what is the use of talking with a dog? Dog will never accept any argument. It will remain dog. So better avoid them.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's very difficult to give good instruction to a dog. It simply barks.

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore I say they should be neglected.

Harikeśa: Just give them prasādam and kīrtana.

Prabhupāda: That's all, yes. No argument. "Please come and take prasādam." That much mercy should be shown to them.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are displaying their cannon. They are displaying weapons.

Prabhupāda: That is their only asset. And when they are kicked out by the cannon of nature, they tolerate, that's all. They are showing their cannon, but ask them, "Can you defend yourself from the cannon of nature when he kicks out, 'Get out'?" You may be very big commander and captain or leader, but when death comes can you avoid it? Then what is your leadership? What will your cannon do? You kill nature by your cannon and live. That you cannot do. Then where is the value of your cannon? Eh? Why you are so much proud of showing your cannon? What you can do with this cannon?

Devotee (2): They know how to destroy everything, but they can't create anything nice.

Prabhupāda: No question of creating. They have destroyed themselves. Save yourself from destruction. Then you talk of destruction. You destroy. That's all right. But you will be destroyed by some other greater power. What you are going to do that? What you have done for that purpose? You destroy. That is going on, nature's way. I am killing somebody; somebody is killing me. That is nature's way. So what is your special credit? There is no credit. There is no credit. You save yourself not to be destroyed by others. "I can destroy others but nobody can destroy me"—that Hiraṇyakaśipu tried. But that is not possible. Ultimately he was destroyed, that's all.

Devotee (2): They don't seem to care too much about the future.

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. Therefore we call them rascals. Therefore we have given this position, rascal, that's all. Talk too much, do nothing—that is rascal. (horn sound in background) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (aside) This old fort was built by the British? This is actually called Old Fort isn't it? This park is built around a commemoration to a very old military fort.

Devotee: British.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: British.

Prabhupāda: Where is that fort?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's supposed to be some kind of museum over here. I don't think the fort is still standing.

Prabhupāda: And where are the fort makers? (laughter) Where they have gone?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They were shot out of the cannon.

Prabhupāda: So what is the meaning of this fort? If the fort makers are themselves finished, then what is the use of making fort?

Devotee (2): Well, they aren't getting any pleasure of the life. "Why should we live anymore? We're not getting any pleasure out of life. There's no future. Why should . . ." People are happy to die these days, because there is no pleasure.

Prabhupāda: There is no . . . Who said there is no pleasure?

Devotee (2): Well, in this world. I mean, this world is more or less suffering.

Prabhupāda: No, they say, "There is no pleasure," so then why you are wasting your time for pleasure?

Devotee (2): Yeah, but they are confused.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They want to enjoy, but they're not finding pleasure.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So we give you enjoyment. Come to Kṛṣṇa. (pause) . . .mango tree?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There are some mango trees behind the house where we're staying, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're not in season right now. There is some fruit on this tree. See up there? There is some fruit. Could be a mango tree.

Prabhupāda: What are these plants? Pineapple? No. Different. (break) . . .intelligent. Just like here is sunshine. Wherefrom the sunshine is coming? We can see the sun globe. So what is the arrangement there? This is inquiry. And there must be some heating arrangement, lighting arrangement. There must be some fire. And who has made this fire? How it came, so big fire that the whole universe is heated and light? This is inquiry. And see the sunshine and say, "It is nature," and finish business, dismiss all other questions—what is this nonsense? "I am great scientist." Eh? What is your reply? "It is nature, that's all." A great scientist. That a child can say also. "It is automatic." That is not intelligence. If the scientists simply study the sunshine, they will have to come to the conclusion there is God. But they will not do that. They will bluff others, they will cheat others, and they will be cheated. And still they will pass on as great scientists. Study the sunshine, wherefrom it is coming. You have no experience that unless there is arrangement at night, there is no sunshine, why you make so much arrangement for heat and light by electricity, by this way and that way, and there is no arrangement nature? What is this? But such foolish talks we have to hear from so-called scientists? That is going on.

Harikeśa: They like to think that everything evolved so they can think that eventually . . .

Prabhupāda: What is the . . .? Why you do not manufacture something that everything will evolve? Why you have to search out for petrol? Let petrol evolve within your car. Make such arrangement. Why you are anxious to get petrol from Arabia? Evolve petrol. Make some scientific discovery that petrol is evolving, so when the machine is going on, petrol is also evolving. Then you are scientist. Evolve. The theory of evolve will come. But you cannot do that. Why do you say nonsense? Darwin's theory—"extinct." Now he is extinct. Does it mean so many other Charles are also extinct? There are many thousands of Charles Darwins, they are existing. So where is his theory of extinction? He is a man; he is no longer existing. And so many millions and millions of men are existing. Where is the question of extinct?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, they found that certain species of life . . .

Prabhupāda: But he belongs to some species, English species, but he is gone. But does it mean the English species is gone? These rascals, they are big scientist and we have to accept them. (break) As a person, he is extinct. Does it mean that the English people are extinct?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then? Why does he say "extinct"? These cheaters, they cheat themselves and bluff others and mislead the people. This is their business. We want at least that people may not be bluffed by these rascal and waste their time. That we want, that much. They may say that "You are not scientist." Yes, I am not scientist, but I can request you that don't be bluffed by this nonsense. That much I can say. I can prove that he is a nonsense. Why you are wasting time after them? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . .their folly, European men. Where the American men will go? (laughter) Just see. (break) . . .from India they made Indian center, and they conquered both sides—Far East, Middle East, Africa—with Indian soldiers. They organized Indian soldiers and Sikhs and Gurkha, and they employed them for extending their empire. British soldier does not mean . . . Maybe two, one or two British commander, but real soldiers were Indian.

Devotee (3): The Indian soldiers were known as the Gurkhas.

Prabhupāda: Gurkhas and Sikhs.

Devotee (3): Of Nepal.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You know that? (break)

(in car)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Whatever the leaders do, then the other people will follow.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . .India also there is such tendency towards sense gratification?

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. India . . . Why do you speak India or America? That is the tendency everywhere.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because when the British came, the Indians took up so many of the habits of the British.

Prabhupāda: No, no, before that also. But that habit was controlled by Indian culture.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I see.

Prabhupāda: That is the specific position of Vedic culture. The habit, that tendency is there, but by Indian Vedic culture these base tendencies are checked and they are made, I mean to say, given opportunity to advance. That is brahminical culture. The brāhmaṇas voluntarily rejected all these. That is ideal, that "Here is an idea." But here at the present moment there is no such idea. Everyone is after material enjoyment. There is no ideal that "Here is a person who doesn't care for anything. Still he is so exalted." That is wanted. That ideal is not now. Therefore I am trying to create such ideal men.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is happening, actually, by this movement.

Prabhupāda: We are not for material opulence. We are for ideal character. That is wanted. But they have no idea that there can be a class of men, ideal character, ideal knowledge, ideal advancement. They have no such idea. Simply bring money and enjoy sense gratification, that's all. In that way they will never be happy. But foolish person, they have no leader to give them ideal, and neither by nature they are not inclined. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). Who is giving them idea that "Come to God, and you will be satisfied"? Nobody is giving. They are simply durāśayā. They are thinking by material opulence they will be happy. This is their ignorance. Therefore so much struggle all over the world. It is not the question of India or America. It is the material way of life.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They put forward the argument sometimes, though, that it is very natural to try to enjoy. "Everyone is doing it, so why should we fight the nature?" People say like this.

Prabhupāda: You enjoy, but where is your enjoyment? Why don't you see to this? Therefore this is not the way of enjoyment. We say there is enjoyment. Just like a diseased person, he wants enjoyment. How he can enjoy? He is diseased person. It is not possible for the diseased person to enjoy. First of all he has to cure his disease. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattvam (SB 5.5.1). First of all, your existence should be purified by tapasya. Be cured of the disease; then you'll enjoy. Enjoyment is your right. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). That is your right, but you are now diseased. Why don't you see to this? You are dying, therefore. You are becoming old, therefore. This is your disease. That they will not admit. In the diseased condition they want to enjoy. And then tuberculosis. If a tuberculosis person, suffering from tuberculosis, he wants to enjoy sex, that means he will die very soon. His life is finished, but he wants that, that "I shall suffer from tuberculosis, at the same time enjoy." Then all right, go to hell. What can be done? Enjoyment is the life, but when you are diseased, you must first of all "Heal thyself," then enjoy. That enjoyment will be nice. This is the instruction of śāstra, that you are working so hard day and night like hogs and dogs, but where is your enjoyment? First of all cure your disease. Then you will be happy. Simply working hard like hogs and dogs, you are thinking that you will enjoy. That is not possible. Hogs and dogs, they simply work hard, but there is no enjoyment. Is there any enjoyment in the life of dogs and hogs? They simply work hard, that's all. So human life is also meant for that purpose, that you will blindly work like hogs and dogs and no enjoyment? Still you are hankering after enjoyment. You should know what is enjoyment, how to do it. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They say, though, that for example the sex urge and things like this, "If God has given us this sex urge, why not satisfy it; otherwise why God would give?"

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if . . . Sex urge . . . But as soon as you become old, you have got the sex urge, but you cannot enjoy. Why? You have got the instrument, you have got the body, and still, if you go to a young woman, then she will kick on your face: "Rascal, you have come to enjoy?" (laughter) Why? Why the young man (woman) kicks on your face? And you pay. Although you pay, still she kicks. So where is your sex enjoyment? Ayur gatiḥ kiṁ yuvatī nārī: "When your age is finished, what is the use of keeping one young woman?" You cannot enjoy. She will enjoy with others, and you will have to pay for that. This is going on. There is one Mr Dalmia in . . . You have heard the name of Dalmia? That is . . . (indistinct) . . ., his elder brother. He has got three, four wives, and for each wife he has got a big, big establishment. And the wife is enjoying with the secretaries and having dozens of children. And he knows that, but still he is keeping that establishment. Everyone knows that. He's old man. He is of my age, and four, five wives, and he is going to one wife's house in the morning, another wife's house in the noon, another wife's house . . . In this way he is paying for that, ten thousand, fifteen thousand rupees per establishment, and the wife is enjoying with others. And he is accumulating money to give to the children. He is anxious, that "After all, they are my children. They must get at least five lakhs of rupees." This is his business. But it is not his children. This is going on, practically, that the rascal still working his brain how to get money to provide so many wives with comfort of life. That's all. There are many. He Dalmia is only one. In the Western countries there are many. Many. At night they go to the nightclub, pay for this. (break) But still, he has no other information of enjoyment. He knows, "This is the only enjoyment, so let me come and see at least." This is going on. Mūḍha. He does not think, "Where is my enjoyment?"

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Either they have to surrender to these instructions or they remain mūḍha.

Prabhupāda: Mūḍhas. They are mūḍhas. They do not take instruction from Kṛṣṇa. That is mūḍha. Mūḍha means that—who does not accept right instruction. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mūḍha nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). You have got two vans? No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, two vans and two cars. And this car we are using while you are here in Durban. (end)