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751021 - Morning Walk - Johannesburg

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

751021MW-JOHANNESBURG - October 21, 1975 - 33:02 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Nonsense. (break)

Harikeśa: Well, they have a saying that "Laws are for being broken."

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Harikeśa: "Laws are for being broken."

Prabhupāda: That is intelligence. If you can break laws, that is intelligence. Hmm. So many dogs. So which way we shall go? (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can go this way, straight. It goes around the park, around the lake. (break) . . .same size. Usually the mother and the father, or at least the mother, they stay pretty close by.

Prabhupāda: It is double zero?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a z missing. Actually "Zoo Lake" it is called.

Prabhupāda: There are many zoos. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just see. They do not check their population. How many? About one dozen? No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ten. (counts) Eleven. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . .brahmacārī, He used to collect all these things for guru's cooking. Kṛṣṇa went to collect with Sudāmā Vipra, and all of a sudden, there was cloud and rain, and there was too much water, and they lived upon a tree for the whole night. Then Sāndīpani Muni, with other students, came and rescued them.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now we have to collect to pay the electricity bill.

Prabhupāda: These things are wasted. (referring to dry branches?) It can be utilized. The children, they'll gladly collect it. It will be like their sports. All the children will come and collect. Just see. Their energy is utilized, the nature's gift is utilized, and there is no expenditure.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Such a nice arrangement.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why they should charge for education? They'll not cut the tree. The dry branches or dead tree, they'll take the wood for utilization.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can walk down this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) . . .parents who would give up their children to gurukula, they would never see them for about ten years?

Prabhupāda: May not see. Ten years? Twenty-five years. They may go and see, give some gifts to the guru.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Western countries they criticize our gurukula, that "This is inhuman, people sending their children away at such an early age, not seeing them."

Prabhupāda: And to kill, that is very human. Rascal. Kick them upon their face. You rascal, you are talking of morality, rascal, you go to hell. Your place is hell. "Devil citing scripture." You are not. . . You are so shameless that you do not be ashamed to speak like that. You are so shameless. Your civilization is so shameless. You are killing child in the womb, and you are talking "inhumanity." Just see. We have to deal with such fools and rascals.

Harikeśa: But they say the child in the womb is not living. They say it's not life yet. Only after it takes birth.

Prabhupāda: That is said by you. You, the tenth-class rascal, you say like that. No sane man says like that. Because you are a tenth-class rascal—you have no knowledge—you say like that. They are. . . The so-called scientists, they are tenth-class rascals.

Harikeśa: Until the child is moving there is no life.

Prabhupāda: Moving. . . It is not moving?

Harikeśa: No. It doesn't move until after seven months.

Prabhupāda: Then why the dead child cannot move, rascal?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's developing, it's growing. That's moving also.

Prabhupāda: No, no, if moving is not there, then the dead child is also not moving. Why he is not moving again?

Harikeśa: I don't understand.

Prabhupāda: A dead child comes; it is not moving. But does it come to movement again?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Harikeśa: Oh.

Prabhupāda: He is another rascal. He takes so much time to answer. (laughter)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This idea of "The devil citing scripture," Prabhupāda, is very common.

Prabhupāda: Devils. All devils.

Harikeśa: They wanted to write an article about this for BTG, and everybody was sitting around giving these examples.

Prabhupāda: Yes, think over. Write article. If there was no life who is at a certain stage in the womb, wherefrom the movement comes, if there was no life?

Harikeśa: Well, they say it develops to the point. . .

Prabhupāda: But why it does not develop in a dead child, rascal? The same child, if it comes out dead, why the movement does not develop?

Harikeśa: Well, that one already developed properly and then died. That child already developed properly.

Prabhupāda: No, the process is the same. It was not moving. At a certain stage it is moving. Similarly, if it is not moving, then wait for a certain stage; it will move. Why it is decomposed?

Harikeśa: But that dead child was moving and then died.

Prabhupāda: How it became dead, nonsense? The condition is the same—no movement. So how do you say "dead"? Why do you say "dead"? The distinction is it was not moving, and it is now not moving, so why do you call "dead"? In such a foolish society, how people can be happy?

Harikeśa: Well, it's the mother's choice to kill the child or not. If the child isn't born yet, it hasn't come to life in the world, so the mother has the responsibility; she can kill it or not because it's her thing, her child, her production, so she can kill it or not.

Prabhupāda: So I can kill you; I am your guru.

Harikeśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Who can say anything? I can kill you. Why police is there? I can say, "He is my disciple. He has fully surrendered. I can kill him." That's all. Will that argument save me from police action?

Harikeśa: No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the child is so dependent on the mother, if the mother mistreats the opportunity, she also is punished.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: But if the child would cause the mother so much anxiety. . .

Prabhupāda: Don't talk like foolish. Don't talk of that. It is waste of time. If it is the property of the mother, mother can kill at any time. Why at a certain point if the mother kills child she is hanged? If the mother has got the liberty to kill the child, she can kill at any time.

Harikeśa: Well, it's just a tumor. It's like a tumor.

Prabhupāda: Then why you say that it is mother's right to kill? And tumor, can you bring life in tumor? Kick simply on their face, on their nose. That is the only thing to treat with such. . . Murkhasya latausadhiḥ(?). Such fools in the society, they should be hanged. Misleading the whole population.

Harikeśa: Even the big, big philosophers simply say that life doesn't start until it comes out of the womb. They are just convinced of it. They are just convinced of it. No matter what argument you give, they are just simply convinced.

Prabhupāda: How they are convinced? Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda's argument is that if life is not there in the womb, then how it develops?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the point. Just like the eggs. If there is no life, how the chicken comes? Why don't you manufacture an egg and bring life from it? That was. . ., the other day I was talking. So because you are tenth-class rascal you cannot understand how the life is there. A seed. Take a seed. Unless there is life, how a big tree comes out of it? You manufacture something like that, imitating, and bring life. Life is there. Because you are tenth-class rascal you do not know.

Harikeśa: They also bring up the insane argument that life. . .

Prabhupāda: "Insane argument." How we have. . .? We have no time to hear such insane argument.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But these demons, Prabhupāda, they pose themselves as being very religious. They pose themselves as being very religious.

Prabhupāda: How they are religious?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They cite scripture.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) The scripture is also devilish. (pause) What is these marks?

Harikeśa: They grow the grass around the outside, and when the green inside has some hole in it like there, they plug it up with that. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . .the scientists cannot immediately accept authority of the Bhāgavatam, that it will take hundreds of years.

Prabhupāda: Less intelligent. No intelligence. Therefore I was quoting that, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstuta puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). These class of scientists and such, they are eulogized by small rascals. They are rascals, and small rascals. . . That is actually happening. Just like your President Nixon. How he was being given reception, crowd. Hundreds and thousands of people used to come. And then again get him down, make him humiliated as far as possible. So this is a rascal, Nixon, and the person who elected him, they are rascals. Therefore the Bhāgavata says, sva-vi-varāhoṣṭra-kharai saṁstutaḥ. Here is one big animal, and the small animals voting him, that's all. This is the society, animal society—the small animals praising the big animals. That's all. All of them are animals only.

Devotee: The big animals also prey on the small animals.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mutual praising society. That's all. "I praise you, and you praise me. I say you are very big; you say I am very big." That's all. And compromise: "I don't criticize you; you don't criticize me." That's all. (break) In the womb the child got life, and when the. . . Sometimes some child comes, stunt. By process again he cries. So why the dead child is not brought into life by that? What do you call dead?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Stillborn. Still. When it's born dead.

Prabhupāda: So. . . No, no. How the life came? How it became dead? (pause) This is eucalyptus? Very hard. Eucalyptus?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It has smell.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Very hard. No need. (break) . . .question, ask them that in the egg there is no life, and the life is coming by. . . What is called? Fermenta. . . No?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fertilization?

Prabhupāda: Fertilization or. . . No. Giving the heat?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Incubation.

Prabhupāda: Incubation. So why don't you make such egg and put it into incubation?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We challenge them like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then why you are talking nonsense that there is no life? Why you are depending on other life for giving you the egg? So this theory that life comes from chemical, so where it is true? Life is coming from the. . ., a life.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: That's fact.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they say that life is simply a combination of chemicals.

Prabhupāda: So do it now. It is not difficult. You can see the egg's chemical, and just combine little chemicals and put it in the incubator. Let life come. Hmm? What is your answer? The advocate speaks.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Yes, we are working on it." (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Working on it. Eh? What is the answer? How long you will work? Is there any time limit? Eh? What is that work? What is the answer? Hmm? How long you will work?

Harikeśa: I don't think anybody is trying to make an egg.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Why not? Why they are not making, trying?

Devotee (1): They know they can't.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, there are certain scientists that are trying to create life, but they've been unsuccessful.

Prabhupāda: Then why do they talk nonsense, what the nonsense says? It is a very good suggestion, that egg is chemical composition. Make a chemical composition like that. That yellow, what is called?

Devotee (1): Yolk.

Prabhupāda: Yolk. You color it. Some chemical and color it. (laughs) What is difficulty? Sometimes they say a man is dead because the color of the blood has changed. From red to. . ., it has become white. So where is the difficulty to make it red again? Do it. Change the color again. Make it red. And if you say, "No, that natural redness is required," so there are so many flowers, natural red. Why there is no life? If redness, natural redness, is the cause of life, so there are so many flowers, red flowers. Why they do not walk? If you say that the. . . "Besides that, the life substance is missing," that is also not correct. Life substance is there in the dead body; otherwise how worms are coming out? Life is coming out. Not one but hundreds are coming out. How you can say the life substance is missing? The worms are coming automatically, but you take the portion of the dead body and produce worm. That you cannot do. So which way you are going to take credit as scientist? (pause) Now which way?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can walk through there.

Prabhupāda: These arguments are not sufficient to defeat the atheist?

Harikeśa: People in general might accept it, but the scientists could always come up with. . .

Prabhupāda: No, why the scientists will not accept?

Harikeśa: Well, they don't want to accept.

Prabhupāda: But that is another thing, obstinacy.

Harikeśa: Just like they. . . In Australia they created those enzymes which were moving and were the basic components of life. So then they say, "Well, we've gone so far and created these first enzymes, the initial component of life. So we'll put them together in the future." And people. . . That may be an argument. It's not a very good one, but they will accept. All the scientists will accept it, that they've gone so far and done that.

Prabhupāda: No, then who is the scientist who is producing so many lives? You have not met Him, but actually we see what you are trying to become successful in future, it is already there. Now, who is that big scientist? Why don't you find Him out? Why don't you call Him and give Him Nobel Prize? Why you are taking? You are rascal. What is their answer? Already things are coming. There are so many lives so that you are killing lives, being afraid of overpopulation. So He is creating so many lives that you think of it as overpopulation, overproduction. So what is your credit if you suppose in future you create one life? What credit you are going to give Him? (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . experimentation, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Science is based on experimentation. They will argue, "So how can we experiment with the theories that you are putting forward?"

Prabhupāda: Our theory or your theory?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Your theory. Our theory.

Prabhupāda: What is that "our theory"?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That the soul is the life force.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So how can we prove that? How can we make the spirit soul appear?

Prabhupāda: How can you bring life force? Have you brought? Then how you can question? If you have brought life otherwise, then you can question. As you cannot bring life otherwise, you have to accept this. This is the proof. Not only that. Because the soul is there, therefore I am talking with you; I am replying your inquiries. And when the soul is not there, even the tongue is there, even the ear is there, I cannot hear you, I cannot reply you. (break) . . . instrument is there by which I talk, why I cannot talk?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The spirit soul is not present.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It seems that you've made it so easy to defeat the scientists.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yet all the universities, schools throughout the world, they're simply following this experimental knowledge of the scientists. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . .machine is recording, but as soon as the electricity stops—the machine is there—it will not record. You cannot say the machine is the ultimate. Machine is there; it will not record as soon as the electricity is missing. So that electricity, either you say soul or something else, you replace it. Just like electricity means the battery you charge, it will work, again record. Similarly, if you say, "That is not soul; something missing," so you can replace it. What is that something? That something also you do not know. Then how can you refute my argument, soul? You do not know anything. I at least know something on the basis of śāstra. But you have neither śāstra nor experiment, nothing else. So who is strong? I am strong or you are strong?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Our position is very weak against these arguments.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have got some evidences—Kṛṣṇa is speaking, the Vedic śāstra . . . And what you have got? Simply your speaking? What you are, nonsense? Your speaking shall be accepted, and Kṛṣṇa's speaking will be rejected? I have got some support, but what support you have got except your statement? Then everyone can give a statement and he becomes an authority.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But there are so many millions and millions of people who hold the opposite view. They feel that their position is very safe, because it's the general consensus opinion that life comes from matter.

Prabhupāda: General consensus of opinion. . . Let them say that there will be no more death, and how it will act? General consensus of opinion. . . Let them vote, "We do not want death anymore." Will it be accepted?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then? What is the value of your vote? You are madmen. Just like Gandhi made civil disobedience here, and government did not accept it. What could he do? (break) . . .truth. If the majority says, "Might is truth," it will be truth?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then untruth is untruth. (end)