751028 - Morning Walk - Nairobi
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . slaughterhouse or no slaughterhouse. They take anything as being good, the governments.
Prabhupāda: Because government "by the people."
Brahmānanda: By the fools and rascals.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Government for the people, by the people."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Democracy idea.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is democracy.
Brahmānanda: Usually their philosophy is that anyone has the liberty to do whatever he likes, as long as it doesn't hurt another, as long as it doesn't infringe on another's liberty.
Prabhupāda: Then how you are killing the animals? (break) . . . eat meat, therefore you are killing poor animals. Why you are interfering others' life? (break) . . . the best park here. (break) Here there is no such park.
Prabhupāda: Nice park. (break)
Cyavana: . . . agricultural.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Opulent.
Cyavana: Yes. All fruits . . .
Cyavana: . . . and flowers.
Jñāna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Kenya the great majority of people live in the country rather than the towns.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. "Country is made of God, and city is made by man." That is the remark by poet Cowper.
Jñāna: How may we best expand our movement into the rural areas or into the country areas?
Prabhupāda: So, Brahmānanda, explain our scheme.
Harikeśa: Explain our scheme.
Cyavana: About the rural development, village program.
Brahmānanda: Of making the men self-sufficient in cloth, foodstuffs, milk products, grains.
Cyavana: There's a map. (break)
Jñāna: . . . program like the Christians.
Prabhupāda: Explain. How to, explain.
Brahmānanda: Of having a . . . Encouraging the people to . . . first by having kīrtana and prasādam.
Brahmānanda: And, er . . . (break)
Prabhupāda: This is the process. Somehow or other, they should join, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare . . ." Then everything. We did not do . . . very difficult. Simply induce them to chant. That will make everything success.
Jñāna: We have been spending some time in a small town . . .
Prabhupāda: Anywhere, hell or heaven, it doesn't matter. You induce people to chant. This is the sum and substance of devotee. It doesn't matter whether it is town, city, village. Wherever you go, you gather people and induce them by flattering them, by falling their . . . on their leg—some way or other, induce them. Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya. This is the process shown by Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, that "My dear sir, I have come to you with great humbleness, taking a straw in my mouth." Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya (Caitanya-candrāmṛta 90): "And falling down on your lotus feet." Kaku-satam kṛtva: "And I am trying to please you by so many flattering words." Kṛtva ahaṁ bravimi: "I have got some submission, if you'll kindly hear." So who is that man who will deny? If you fall down on his feet and take a straw and very humbly you pray, "Sir, I have got something to say if you kindly hear," who will deny? Who is that man? Even rogues, rascal, he'll also agree: "Yes, you can say what you want to do." This is the process. Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya kaku-satam kṛtvā ca ahaṁ bravīmi. "I want to submit. Will you kindly hear?" So any rogue, rascal, gentleman, big, small, learned—everyone will agree. Is it not, if you submit like that, that with great humbleness and flattering him, "Falling down on your feet, I want to submit something"? Huh? What do you think?
Jñāna: I think it's wonderful. Yes.
Prabhupāda: This is the . . . this is the process. So this is the process. So now, when he will say, "All right, you can say what you want to say," then, he sādhava: "You are a great personality, nobleman." He may be a loafer class, (laughter) but give him all honor: "You are so great and so exalted," he sādhava, "and so honest." He sādhava. "My only submission is that whatever you have learned, you forget. Whatever nonsense you have learned . . ." Don't say "nonsense." (laughter) But we must know that he is a pakkā rascal, nonsense. (laughs) So don't say directly "nonsense." Say, "You are the great personality. So kindly, whatever you have learned, forget." "Then what shall I do?" He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya durāt (Prabodānanda Sarasvatī): "Kick out whatever you, nonsense, learned." "Then what shall I do?" Now, caitanya-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam: "Kindly be submissive to Lord Caitanya and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." This is our program. No argument. Because he is a rascal, what is the use of arguing with him? He's a rascal number one. You know that. You cannot expect any good argument from the rascals and fools. Where is the logic? Their logic is to beat them with shoes. That is the only logic. But that, if you do that, then you'll not be able to preach. But otherwise that is the only logic, to beat them with shoes. Argumentum baculum. You know this logic? In logic we have read. There is one logic, argumentum . . . you know this?
Cyavana: It's Latin. That is Latin.
Lilāvatī: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You know? What is that? Argumentum baculum? Hmm? With fools and rascals, with animals, there is no logic. Take the stick and beat them. If a dog, if he is a dog, what is the argument with him? Take the stick and beat him; then he will go away. That is called argumentum baculum. That is, Sanskrit logic, also said, murkhasya lakhtauśādhi(?): "One who is a fool, his only remedy is beating him with stick." This is material. But we are not doing anything material. It is all spiritual. Therefore, especially in this age, Caitanya Mahāprabhu,
- tṛṇād api sunīcena
- taror api sahiṣṇunā
- amāninā mānadena
- kīrtanīyaḥ. . .
- (CC Adi 17.31)
So we should preach like this. Any rascal . . . because anyone who has no information of Kṛṣṇa, who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's a rascal. That's all. That we must know. That is definite. There is no mistaking it. But if you say that "You are rascal. There is no mistaking it," then you cannot preach. If you directly call a rascal a rascal, he'll be angry. Murkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śanta. To give good instruction to a fool, rascal, will increase his anger, that's all. Then you'll not be able to preach. So you have to become very humble, tṛṇād api sunīcena, humbler than the grass. Just like everyone is trampling over the grass; he doesn't protest, "Why you are going, keeping your leg on my head?" But that is the . . . tṛṇād api sunīcena. Go on trampling. Hundreds and hundreds people are trampling over the grass; they don't protest. Tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā. The tree is standing. You sit down. When there is scorching heat, you take pleasure by sitting down under the shade. But the reward is that you cut the branches. That is their reward. He gives you shelter, and you cut the branch, you cut the whole tree. This is your gratefulness. You see? Because we are rascals, we do not know what is gratefulness. They are taking milk from the cow and killing. This is our proposal.
So Caitanya Mahāprabhu advises, taror api sahiṣṇunā—tolerant, humbler than the grass. Amāninā mānadena. Don't expect any honor for your person, but to the others give honor: "Oh, you are most exalted person," although he's a rascal. What can be done? Otherwise you cannot preach. If you call a rascal a rascal, immediately your preaching will be stopped. So you have to say that "You are the greatest intelligent man, sādhu, most honored. The only request is that you forget what you have learned. That's all. And take this." In this way preaching practical. Otherwise it is not possible. Everyone is thinking he is the most exalted personality, scientist, philosopher, great man. That is material disease. Actually he is being kicked every moment by the urges of the senses, and he is thinking he is very great man. Go-dāsa. Go means senses. He is always, cut down by the sense urges, and he is thinking "independent." Independent means servant of the senses. This is going on.
So you have to understand the real position of the world, and if you want to preach, then you have to . . . humbler than the tree, humbler than the grass, tolerant than the tree and . . . we know everyone is rascal; still, you have to give him honor. Then it will be possible to say something. Otherwise it is very difficult. We have to deal with all rascals, fools, rogues, ruffians—all good quality men(?). This is . . . you must know this. You are dealing with all rascals. So if we call them directly "rascal," they will be angry. Your preaching will not be successful. So follow the principle enunciated by Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī and Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Jñāna: When they ask us about Lord Caitanya, "Who is this Lord Caitanya?" what may we tell them?
Prabhupāda: "Yes, you'll understand. Please kindly chant Hare Kṛṣṇa now. You'll understand." When we say, "Follow the instruction of Caitanya," means "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." What Caitanya said? Caitanya said, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31): "Always chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That's all. "So you'll know Caitanya, what He is, later on. For the time being, Caitanya says that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You do it, and then you will be able very easily. At the present moment, simply if you want to know—I explain Caitanya—it will be not possible for you. Better chant. Take His instruction." (japa) Where they are going? To work?
Prabhupāda: What is the time for their joining?
Indian man: Between six-thirty and seven o'clock.
Prabhupāda: And how long they'll work?
Indian man: They will work up to twelve, one o'clock. Then they go home. Then they come back again at four o'clock, then . . .
Prabhupāda: That is Indian. In India also the servant like that. Then remains up to nine o'clock.
Indian man: But those who are far away, they go at six o'clock. (break)
Jñāna: But if the devotees, if they go and live in small groups amongst the people—for example, in the country instead of just in big city temples—then we can influence more people, get more people chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Good idea. But whether you will be able to live? Better go from the city to the interior, come back.
Cyavana: To remain there for long is difficult.
Jñāna: It's difficult.
Cyavana: Yes. We've had experience.
Prabhupāda: You go, just in Europe, America, they are going in buses in the interior, and they're preaching then coming back.
Jñāna: So this should be our program.
Prabhupāda: (japa) (break)
Indian lady: . . . go house to house, or at the time of their function there are ladies gathering there.
Indian lady: When the ladies are gathering their own function, just like . . .
Prabhupāda: What function?
Indian lady: On Maṅgalbara they, and . . . Here usually they do like that.
Prabhupāda: Let them come.
Brahmānanda: Let them come to our function rather than going to their function.
Prabhupāda: Their function means recreation. That is not function. By that function they'll . . . but it is. . . something is better than nothing. That is another thing. Arto 'rthārthī jijñāsur jñānī—four kinds of men, they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. The arto 'rthārthī . . . artaḥ means distressed, and arthārthī means those who are in need of money. So they are arto 'rthārthī, and better than the rogues and ruffians, but their Kṛṣṇa consciousness, chanting "Kṛṣṇa," means they want to get some money and to get out of some distress. That is ninety-nine percent people. And some of them are jñānī. They want to learn about Kṛṣṇa very seriously, not to fulfill their material desires. They are called jñānī. Jñānī and jijñāsu, inquisitive. So in jnani, those who are after knowledge, and inquisitive, they are better than this arta and arthārthī. But devotee is transcendental to all of them. They are neither arto, not distressed, nor in need of money. They do not want to speculate for knowledge or . . . they know, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, and if I am part and parcel of the Supreme, it is my duty to serve Him to My best capacity." That is real bhakti. And those who are trying to exploit Kṛṣṇa for their . . . some material fulfillment of desire, they are not on the platform of bhakta. They are pious, not bhakta. A bhakta is above piety, piety. Bhakta's position is sarvopadhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). He is cent percent pure, without any mat . . . these are all material things. But beginning is all right. If you go to the fire, some way or other you will get the heat. So either be arta, arthārthī, jñānī, jijñāsu. If you somehow or other, you have come to Kṛṣṇa, it is good for you. There are many private functions like that you said?
Indian lady: Yes. Here always, twice in a week.
Indian lady: Here always there will be function twice in a week.
Prabhupāda: Oh, twice in a week. So which are the days?
Indian lady: Usually they keep on Tuesday and Friday.
Brahmānanda: There are many, the ladies' Satsang Mandalas and . . .
Prabhupāda: Ladies, not lords. (laughter)
Indian lady: No. Yes, only ladies
Prabhupāda: They are better. It doesn't matter ladies or lord. Anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious is good. Striyo śūdras tathā vaiśyas te 'pi yānti param (BG 9.32). It doesn't matter whether woman, śūdra or vaiśya. If he is . . . if she is or he is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he can go back to home, back to Godhead. Kṛṣṇa is open to everyone.
Lilāvatī: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We were thinking that unless the African people can see an example of a devotee, they won't continuously chant. They will chant while we are there, and then they will forget.
Prabhupāda: Why don't you become an example yourself?
Lilāvatī: So to live amongst them, we were thinking, is very important.
Prabhupāda: You become an example by your behavior. Example is better than precept. (break)
Jñāna: . . . to attain the necessary finances to support the programs here.
Prabhupāda: Beg. Sell book. That's all. Otherwise, how you get finance?
Jñāna: One idea is to have a farm that we sell fruit or vegetables, like that.
Prabhupāda: If you open farm for financial help, then it will not be successful. You should take to farming for supporting yourself, that's all. Grow your own food. Grow your own cloth. There is no need of financial help from outside. You get your food grains sufficiently—rice, ḍāl, wheat, vegetables, milk, sugar. Bās. You get everything. From these five, six items you should be economically free. That you have to do, not for trade to get money. Then it will be failure.
Indian lady: Can we purchase the house for our own staying?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because this is necessary. You must have some shelter; you must eat; you must cover. That is necessary. So you do it. Grow food first of all to feed yourself sumptuously. You must get strength, and that is needed. But not for trade. The policy should be that you should be self-sufficient and save time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is wanted. Yavad-ārtha prayojanam. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya yogo bhavati siddhi-hā (BG 6.17). You shall eat whatever you require for proper upkeep of the body, not eating too much and sleeping whole day. Don't do that. Eat only what is absolutely necessary. Then you'll never be in want. People are engaged in material civilization means they are increasing the bodily demands, unnecessary. Just like this park. Why we have come to this park? We like this atmosphere. So similarly in villages, everyone, if he has got some land, he can live simply without any gorgeous building. What is the use? Just have a cottage and have garden. You'll live very peacefully.
But they're constructing big, big skyscraper building in the downtown, and they will have to come here by car for some peace of mind, and in the meantime, accident, police. This is the civilization, nonsense civilization. At weekend they will go to the village, country, and during the week-time they will work hard. This is their civilization, with the risk of life, running motorcar eighty miles' speed. Every moment there is risk. What is this civilization? Most ludicrous civilization. So farming means if you live in a farm . . . just like in New Vrindaban they are doing. Produce your own food, live peacefully, fresh vegetable, fresh grains, fresh milk, and prepare so many nice milk preparation, kachorī, halavā, and with ghee. Offer to the Deity. Eat sufficiently. What is the use of going outside? Simple life and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. If you can organize that, that will be very nice.
Jñāna: A nice program here.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is this rascal civilization, whole day "Where is money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money?" Everyone. Busy means "Where is money? Where is money?" Just like the hog, he is busy: "What my . . .? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" That is not civilization. If you remain always busy, "Where is stool?" like the hog, then what is your civilization? Whole day working, night, night shift, day shift, whole day, the same like hog.
Brahmānanda: They hold more than one job. They have two jobs.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Get money and then drink wine and eat meat and do all nonsense things. This is their civilization.
Jñāna: A farm means also we may engage the people, because they are not so . . .
Prabhupāda: First of all be engaged yourself. Then they will see the example and they'll join. Just like in our New Vrindaban, other men from other farms, they are coming, and they are offered this milk preparation, burfī, sandeṣa, rasagullā, rābṛi, so many, halavā. They become: "Oh, so many nice things can be prepared from milk?" They do not know, uncivilized. Cut the animal and eat. A most crude civilization. When people were not civilized, they used to do that. Civilization means you know, you must know how to live very nicely. That is civilization. But they do not know even that. Simply eating meat and wine, meat and wine, that's all. And this is going on as civilization.
They do not know what is the meaning of civilization. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). Real civilization means to understand God. Here is God. Who'll accept, either you say God or nature, that "You are under control. You are not free"? That, this dog's obstinacy, they will not take it. Like a dog. What is the meaning of dog obstinacy? He'll go on disturbing: "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" This is dog consciousness. How they can refuse, that "There is no authority"? They say, "No, we don't care for authority. Don't." But you are being kicked every moment. Still, there is no authority? Just see obstinacy. Why you are becoming old? Every moment you are being kicked. You cannot remain young. You are trying to remain young with pomade, with some color, with some this, tea, wig, and . . . but you cannot, rascal. You cannot. You must become old. And still, he is thinking that he'll be able to remain young. This is called dog's obstinacy. He has got experience that nobody can remain young. I'll also not remain young also, although I want it, "Yes, if I can remain young, that is good facility." That he knows, but he won't find the way how he can remain. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. Nitya. That path he will not take. Kṛṣṇa says, "Here is the way." Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam adyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanam (Bs. 5.33). Kṛṣṇa, the oldest man, oldest living being, but nava-yauvana, always fresh, young. You can get that position. You can play also, play Kṛṣṇa. But that path they will not take. Kṛṣṇa, ever-existingly young man, He is displaying in Vṛndāvana and inviting, "You can also come and join and live like this." "No." That's all. "It is all fictitious. There was no Kṛṣṇa. There is no such thing." Immediately dismiss judgment. And by pomade, by injection, by . . . what is called? Hormone? All these rascals, they are trying to be young. Just see. You are doctor. Can you make young men with this?
Indian lady: Temporary they give hormone.
Prabhupāda: What is this temporary? Temporary means . . .
Indian lady: Temporary they get to be young.
Prabhupāda: One Marwari man, very rich man, he, eighty years old, he wanted to change the hormones to remain . . .
Indian lady: Yes. That was in Indore.
Prabhupāda: Indore, yes.
Indian lady: Kukumcha.
Prabhupāda: Kukumcha. Yes, you know.
Indian lady: He got the glands from the monkey.
Prabhupāda: Just see. But where is now Kukumcha?
Indian lady: Now he is no more.
Prabhupāda: So kukum, finished. (laughter) Kukum means order. Kukum. So he thought . . . kukum means order.
Indian lady: He was very rich. He used to . . .
Prabhupāda: I know that. In Calcutta, Kukumcha. This firm was very big. One of the richest Marwari. So eighty years old, he wanted to change the hormone to become young. Not only . . . there are many Marwaris. You know the Dainya? . . . (indistinct) . . .? His elder brother, Rāmakṛṣṇa Dainya. His only business is to keep one wife and have a big establishment. He has got four, five wives—one Bengali, one U.P., one Marwari, one this—and each wife's establishment not less than ten thousand per month. And his business is morning to this wife and evening to this wife and noon to this wife, this wife. And he is old man. The wives do not care for him, and she is doing everything, whatever, with the secretary. That's all. It is going on. I have seen. I was guest in his home, and this rascal is doing this. He is earning money, black market, white market, this mar . . . at any cost, and spending like this. That's all. There are many persons. Oh, in Europe also, the same thing. In Paris very, very old men, seventy-five years old, eighty years, they go to the nightclub. Entrance fee fifty dollar, then pay for the woman, wine. Spend few hours and spend two hundred, three hundred, five hundred dollars—go home. Then tranquilizer pill and sleep. This is going on. Therefore mūḍha.
Harikeśa: They've found with this monkey gland operation also that you become like a monkey after a while, that you develop lots of hair and jaw becomes prominent.
Harikeśa: Yes. They've found that.
Prabhupāda: Why don't you try for it? (laughter) You are supporter of Darwin's theory. (laughter)
Harikeśa: They may find them swinging through the trees.
Prabhupāda: Jump over from tree to tree. I have seen here. There is . . .
Cyavana: In this area there are monkeys.
Prabhupāda: Many. And they are also chased by another bird, monkey-eating bird. They'll go and capture and take him, and throw him in the ground, and he falls down and dies. Then the bird eats. You know the monkey-eating birds? I have seen in Los Angeles Zoo. Not very big, but they want to eat monkeys.
Harikeśa: Oh, the monkey-eating birds in Los . . . yes.
Prabhupāda: So for eating, sleeping, mating and defending, everyone has got full intelligence. This monkey-eating bird also knows how to do his job. So that is not intelligence. Even this lowest-class bird, they . . . even small flies, they also know all tricks how to exist, struggle for existence.
Harikeśa: Once in Vṛndāvana you were sitting in your room, and I had some bananas on the right-hand side. Do you remember this?
Harikeśa: The monkey opened the door while we were all sitting there, stole the bananas, and raced out again.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Many times. Many times. When I was in Rādhā-Dāmodara temple I was eating, and they will open the door and take my food. And who is going to struggle with him? Whole bunch of cāpāṭis. Even raw dough taken away.
Harikeśa: We were once walking in the road right in front of Rādhā-Dāmodara temple holding some prasādam, and the monkey came from a tree and knocked down . . .
Harikeśa: . . . the devotee and stole the prasādam and ran away.
Jñāna: I heard they take the devotees' tape recorders and trade them for bananas in the market. I heard.
Prabhupāda: They are intelligent.
Indian lady: They want to get purified by getting prasādam from. . .
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is not . . . (laughter) "Some devotees come here to become purified"—no. "Where is tape recorder? Where is camera?" They find out and take it away. We have got experience. What is this bird chirping?
Cyavana: There are many varieties here.
Prabhupāda: In Bengal there is bird. Bengali is also. Every village is a garden like this, and these birds live in such nice garden. Bengal, it is now deserted. Otherwise, wherever you go it is garden. You have seen . . . (indistinct) . . .?
Brahmānanda: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: When we go from Calcutta to Māyāpur, simply garden. All banana trees, all coconut trees, mango trees, nice green field. But they cannot maintain. Formerly they were maintaining. All gentlemen used to live within the village, they used to take care. Now all gentlemen, they have left. They have gone to the city. Only poor men are there. They cannot maintain.
Brahmānanda: We stopped one time at the home of that minister. He had his home on that road with big gardens.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tarun.
Brahmānanda: Tarun Kanti Ghosh. Lush gardens, big lake.
Prabhupāda: That was the Bengal system. Big, big lakes, garden. Unless respectable rich men live in the village . . . just like this. This is a nice garden because government is maintaining. So unless there are rich men, who will maintain? Poor men cannot maintain. (pause) It is cloudy today. But in . . . climate is nice, very pleasant.
Jñāna: From day to day it is changing.
Jñāna: From day to day it is changing. Even this afternoon it may be very clear.
Prabhupāda: This city park is very big?
Devotee: It goes in that direction.
Prabhupāda: We shall go now?
Brahmānanda: Yes, Prabhupāda. (break)
Cyavana: The soul is all-pervading, throughout the body.
Prabhupāda: No, no. What he questions, you did not hear?
Cyavana: Are there many living entities within the body?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You do not know that?
Cyavana: Yes. There are other living entities.
Cyavana: In the stomach . . .
Prabhupāda: But you do not know that.
Jñāna: I understood that.
Prabhupāda: Then why you are asking? There're so many worms in your intestine.
Jñāna: For example, the cells in the body. Are they also . . .
Prabhupāda: Whatever you say, there are many. Cells are not living entities. (break)
Cyavana: That's the beginning. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . come gradually. But this particular body belongs to a particular living entity.
Jñāna: Actually, my doubt was about the cells, whether they were living entities or . . . (break)
Prabhupāda: Living entity quits this body, no other living entity will be able to . . .
Prabhupāda: It belongs to the particular. That is the rascal philosophy of these rascal scientists. They say some chemical is missing. Why chemical missing? There are so many other living entities, how they are living? If the chemical is missing, how they are living? This is rascaldom. If you say when the body is dead, the chemical is missing, then why so many hundreds and thousands of microbes are coming? Huh? (Hindi) Therefore I say rascals. (end).