751103 - Morning Walk - Bombay
Girirāja: So we told them that we didn't want . . . they were putting in a permanent one. So we stopped that, and . . . (aside) Saurabha Prabhu, did he say that he would also remove the present one?
Saurabha: Well, he couldn't do that immediately because this one has been there for twenty-five years. But they will try to get rid of all these things.
Prabhupāda: Rather inconvenient to Mr. Mhatre, because in front, practically. We have got wall. He has no very much objection. And how will they allow? (break)
Girirāja: Have a gate in the middle of the wall and so many people will be passing. It will be a big international center, so it will look bad for India that . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. So stick to that point. That's nice. (break) . . . may take advantage of offering obeisances, consciously or unconsciously. (break)
Dr. Patel: . . . examination. My son and his wife came. Especially for them . . . they don't have other holidays. Practically they are locked up in the college.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! (Hindi) (break) What is the use of the fighting?
Dr. Patel: I have heard that the man could have first landed on . . . (indistinct) . . . his wife has . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Nobody landed. This is all bogus.
Dr. Patel: No, no, whatever he did . . . let us. . . it is all bogus, but that man is divorced by his wife because he has lost his sex. Somebody told me.
Prabhupāda: There are many cases. This is the statement in the Bhāgavata. Dampatye ratim eva hi: "Marriage relationship will continue only on sex power, that's all." If one is weak in sex power, the marriage will be cancelled.
Dr. Patel: You must tell any other good messages, tell part of it, how actually a marriage is, can be for production of good progeny . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. Putrārthe kriyate bharyā putra-piṇḍa-prayojanam. This, the first, piṇḍa-dāna, for maintaining family. But nowadays nobody wants offspring. They want to kill to avoid botheration.
Dr. Patel: First they prevent, and if by accident it happens, then they kill it. And the medical profession help them.
Prabhupāda: Help them. Before my speaking you are saying. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: I am against it, no doubt. Once upon a time I used to be the doctor of all these so-called cinema actors and actresses, and you know their profession. And they are always falling prey of these sort of things, and they would come to me for relief, and I would refuse. So today I have none of them as my patient.
Prabhupāda: But you cannot relieve them.
Dr. Patel: No, I mean have taken a vow not to do wrong things. That is why I am here in your company. Otherwise I would be somewhere in . . . (laughs) That is very common in Bombay.
Prabhupāda: Not only Bombay; all over the world. Now it is imported in India also, to get relief of pregnancy. This is . . .
Yaśomatīnandana: There is a big board in Andheri railway station. It says, "For abortion and for family planning come here and get your . . . (indistinct) . . ." (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: The college boys are taking advantage of this.
Indian man (1): Always you can get the beer, all beer, every place.
Dr. Patel: Cold beer?
Indian man (1): (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: No, because I don't drink. I don't know. I have not taken tea even in England during my education, because I am not to take tea. I am totally teetotaler of the right way. We have in lot of different ways. The society is right from the beginning body conscious, more or less, we. We are not taught even during our age of education that we are not this body and something else. This was being done in ancient times, our forefathers. When the boys were going to the guru, in āśrama, they were first taught this, that, "You are not this body; you are something else." And here you are taught you are body, so you have to take exercise.
Prabhupāda: That is the first education, first instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā, beginning of Bhagavad-gītā—dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Unless one understands that "There is change of body, and I am spirit soul within this body," he remains a cat and dog, and that's all. Dehātmā-buddhiḥ . . . yasyātmā-buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhātuke, sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). So we are keeping this civilization—animal civilization. How there can be peace? You cannot make several dogs, bring them together as nation, and they will live peacefully. It is not possible, that "You all dogs come here and feel nationally and be peaceful." Will the dogs will be able to do that? Because you are dog, it is not possible.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) They fight among themselves for nothing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are keeping them cats and dogs by education, culture, and they want to be happy. How it is possible? First of all let them come to the standard of human being. Then there is question of peace and happiness. They are kept as cats and dogs, and how there can be peace? You cannot make any peace in the dog society. That is not possible. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So that consciousness can come only when one is spiritually educated. If he is simply engaged for satisfying the senses, material, then he remains a cat and dog. You cannot expect any peace.
Dr. Patel: I think the greatest damage done to this civilization of Āryans of India was by Macaulay, who introduced the British system of education.
Prabhupāda: But why you accepted that? (laughter) Why you accepted? Then why don't you accept? You should have refused.
Dr. Patel: Well, we were not there to refuse. We came afterwards. Our forefathers gave us . . .
Prabhupāda: No, you can . . . Just like they are reforming. Their forefathers were drunkards, woman-hunters, (laughter) and they are reformed, the great-grandchildren. And we old men, we cannot do that.
Dr. Patel: I talk of Macaulay . . .
Prabhupāda: Macaulay may mislead you. Why you should believe?
Dr. Patel: He has misled our forefathers.
Prabhupāda: No, why you should be misled?
Dr. Patel: Now we are going to lead them. Are you not leading them?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Your forefathers might have been misled, but why you will commit the same mistake again?
Dr. Patel: Now we have improved upon the mistake and we are leading them, and we will lead them.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not the fact. These boys, European, American boys, they were misled from the very beginning of their life, but how they are improving in spiritual consciousness? The thing is, we are not prepared to take up our own culture. That is. . .
Dr. Patel: That's right, sir. God must have some, something to fulfill . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Take for example our big leader, Mahātmā Gandhi. He was supposed to be very good scholar in Bhagavad-gītā. Did he ever preach that "You are not this body"?
Dr. Patel: I come from the āśrama. Yes, he did.
Prabhupāda: Then where is the question of nationalism?
Dr. Patel: He never says. . . When he went to England. . .
Prabhupāda: Then why he asked the Europeans to go out, "Quit India"?
Dr. Patel: Because they were exploiting poor people. There was a question of uniformity of people. There was no question of . . .
Prabhupāda: No, there cannot be uniformity. On the bodily concept of life there cannot be any uniformity. That is a . . . When uniformity comes? Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. When? Brahma-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Then uniformity. You have no knowledge of Brahman. You are living like cats and dogs. How there can be uniformity? That is not possible. (break) Practically you see uniformity. Somebody is coming from Europe; somebody, America; somebody, Africa; somebody, Canada; somebody, Hindu; somebody, Muslim; somebody, Christian. How they are becoming uniform? Because on the Brahman platform. And if you remain in this bodily concept of life, there is no question of uniformity. Paramo nirmatśarāṇāṁ. This uniformity means "I am envious of you; you are envious of me." This is our position. Bhāgavata says that this Bhāgavata culture is meant for paramo nirmatsarāṇām (SB 1.1.2). So if you remain in the material platform, there is no question of nirmatsara. Para utkarṣa asahanam. This is called matsaratā. The whole basic principle . . . unless you come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of uniformity, peace, prosperity. Nothing. Therefore our movement is "Change consciousness. Come to the spiritual platform, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything will be all right." Otherwise not possible. What is that, māṁ aprāpyaiva mūḍha janmani janmani (BG 16.20)?
Dr. Patel: Aprāpyaiva mām eva.
Prabhupāda: One who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is birth after birth he will be pushed into the atheist family, that's all. Mūḍha janmani janmani asureṣu (BG 16.20). What is that verse?
Dr. Patel: Mām aprāpya adhāmam . . .
Prabhupāda: Adhāmamaṁ gatim. So their result is they'll go down and down, that's all.
Dr. Patel: Then how he comes up?
Prabhupāda: By Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Dr. Patel: Tri-guṇasya.
Prabhupāda: That is,
- māṁ cāvyabhicāriṇī
- bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate
- sa guṇān samatītyaitān
- brahma-bhūyāya kalpate
- (BG 14.26)
If you engage him in devotional service, immediately he is transferred to the spiritual platform. That is wanted.
Dr. Patel: Kāmaḥ krodhas tadā lobhas tasmād evam . . . Tri-vidhaṁ narakasya-dvāram.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Yes. On the material platform, he . . . the human life is meant for spiritual culture. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. But they have rejected. They are simply busy athāto deha-jijñāsā. That's all. Dehātmā-buddhi.
Dr. Patel: I have got little point on this, that after all, the spirituality within you, namely ātmā, cannot remain independently without this body, so you have got to look after the body, dehe.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is not the fact. If you are actually spiritually advanced, you don't care for it. Deha smṛti nāhi yār saṁsāra bandhana kāhān tānra (Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura). It is just like Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī. He had no spiritual con . . . er, material . . . he was eating every alternate day a little quantity of butter. That's all. How he was living in Vṛndāvana? So when one is perfectly on the spiritual platform, there is no bodily necessities. That is the sign. Therefore our civilization is to decrease the bodily necessities, not to increase. Control. Control, from the brahmacārī, control, control, control. Ultimately completely control. That is perfectional stage. Tyāgena. What is that verse?
Dr. Patel: Iśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ yat kincid jagatyam. . . (ISO 1).
Prabhupāda: No, tapasā brahmacāryena tyāgena yamena vā (SB 6.1.13). This is wanted. Tapasa. Beginning. Tapasya means that controlling the senses. That is tapasya. And the tapasya begins . . .
Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) . . . brahma.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Tapasya means . . . beginning is brahmācārya. Tapasā brahmacāryena (SB 6.1.13). So where is brahmācārya?
Dr. Patel: Brahman prati ācarati āśā brahmacārī. I mean, all the senses. Not only the upasthas, but all the ten senses, including your mind and the discriminating buddhi, all are directed toward serving feet of God, and then he does not . . . that is real brahmacārī.
Prabhupāda: That, yes. Devotee means brahmacārī. Pure devotee means brahmacārī. Anyabhilasita-sunyam (Brs. 1.1.11). He has no other desire. That is brahmacārī. (break) This building is meant for playing cards. Somebody knows?
Indian man: I told, yes. (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: Club.
Girirāja: I don't think this one is. No, behind it.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This looks like a residential apartment building.
Girirāja: Indira's daughter stays here. Indira? It belongs to her niece's family. So sometimes her niece was staying here, and she used to come to the temple every day. There's another one which is a club.
Prabhupāda: . . . tri-dhātuke sva-dhiḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma īḍya-dhīḥ, yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij janeṣu abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). South Africa . . .
(Hindi) . . . successful.
Dr. Patel: South Africa, majority of them are rooting Holland. Not many other. Hollanders only.
Dr. Patel: Not English.
Prabhupāda: No, there are all kinds of Europeans.
Dr. Patel: No, but majority of them are Hollanders. That is why this . . . they were against the Britishers to begin.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. So in South Africa we had very successful programs.
Dr. Patel: You are going to have a temple there?
Prabhupāda: Yes, we have already there.
Dr. Patel: Did you go to East Africa also?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Nairobi.
Dr. Patel: Jomo, Jomo wants money from anybody who goes and sees him, as if he's a big god.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) But where we have got money?
Dr. Patel: That is what I say. And he has all his money in Switzerland, Swiss banks. This is how they ruling these poor people.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's one of the richest men in the world.
Devotee (2): Who?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Jomo Kenyatta.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Prakṛteḥ kriyamānāni guṇaiḥ sarva . . . (BG 3.27). You are fully under the control of the material nature. You must submit.
Dr. Patel: Yaṁ yaṁ vā . . . tyajanti deham.
Dr. Patel: That is how, I mean, Bharata got mṛga (?) because he was continuously in his mind was there.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no such education that there are dehāntara-praptiḥ (BG 2.13) and there are 8,400,000 different forms of deha. Which one he is going to get? Nobody is serious about it. He thinks, "Things will go on like this. I am very free to do anything." That is going on. Mūḍha. Mūḍha, rascal. Duṣkṛtino mūḍha. They will never hear the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. They will do whatever he likes and interpret in a different way. (Hindi) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāh (BG 7.15). He could take the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā and make his life perfect, but because he is mūḍha and full of sinful activities, he will not do that.
Dr. Patel: Māyayāpahṛta-jñānam asurīṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Ah! Although he is very proud of his material knowledge, it has no value. Because he is dependent on the laws of material nature, what his knowledge will help him? Suppose a very big man of this material world, he commits some sin. Does it mean that because he has got big qualification he will be saved from the laws? No. He must suffer. So mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). You cannot avoid even these material laws, so how you can avoid the nature's law? Mama māyā duratyayā. Very, very difficult, but still, they are thinking, "Oh, we are independent. We can do anything." Therefore mūḍhas.
Dr. Patel: Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām . . .
Prabhupāda: Taranti te. Yes. So this is the position. Therefore our propaganda is that "You take Kṛṣṇa and be Kṛṣṇa conscious, and then you'll be happy." This is our propaganda. We haven't got to manufacture anything. We have to simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. (aside:) Oh, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi)
This time I have requested all Nairobi important friends that "Now you take sannyāsa and become guru. Kṛṣṇa . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked everyone to become guru. Amāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa. You have come to Africa. Now become their guru and deliver them." "Now, how shall I do it?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Simply speak. Don't become very big upstart. Simply speak what Kṛṣṇa has done. That's all. You'll become guru." (Hindi) "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has said this. The meaning of this is this," as Kṛṣṇa left the meaning to be declared or understood by some fools and rascals. This is going on.
Dr. Patel: Sir, what is this:
- yathā pravṛttir bhūtānāṁ
- yena sarvam idaṁ tatam
- sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya
- siddhiṁ vindati mānavaḥ
- (BG 18.46)
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Dr. Patel: Sva-karmaṇā?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You are doctor. You can serve Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ. According to your, I mean, sva-dharma.
Prabhupāda: This is perfection of life, that,
- ataḥ puṁbhir dvija-śreṣṭha
- svanusthitasya dharmasya
- saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam
- (SB 1.2.13)
You may do whatever occupational duty you are . . . but you have to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Then your everything is perfect. And if you satisfy your senses, then you are going to hell. This is the position. Therefore it is . . . sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya. Even that karma is abominable, sa-doṣam api na tyājet (BG 18.48). You go on with your work. Even there is some fault, it doesn't matter, but you satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Then it is perfect. Just like Arjuna did. The fighting is not good business, but he satisfied Kṛṣṇa. Therefore by fighting, he became a great devotee—sva-karmaṇā. He did not leave his position as a kṣatriya, as a gṛhastha, but he . . . karisye vacanam tava (BG 18.73): "Yes. In spite of my not being inclined to fight, because You are asking, I'll do it." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (Hindi) (break) You remain in your place, but you have your ears to hear Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll be perfect. What is the difficulty? You remain as a doctor. You remain as a pleader. You remain whatever you like. It doesn't matter. But engage your aural reception to the words of Kṛṣṇa. Then you become perfect. What is the difficulty? Simply sit down and hear what Kṛṣṇa says, Bhagavad-gītā. That's all. And if you say that "I simply hear," and if you do not act, no, you'll act, because as you go on hearing, your heart will be purified. Then you will be inclined to hear . . . er, act.
Indian man (3): I was going to ask this question, but . . . (laughing)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathā kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya śravaṇa . . . (SB 1.2.17) Because by hearing Kṛṣṇa, you'll be purified. Puṇya-śravaṇa. Simply by hearing, you'll be pious. And as soon as you become pious, then you can understand Kṛṣṇa. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ jananaṁ puṇya . . . (BG 7.28). But nobody will come here. They'll go to the restaurant, club, the playing cards. Nobody will come. We are opening so many centers that the rascals may come and hear and become pious. That will also not do. Caitanya Mahāprabhu regretted that. Etādṛśi tava kṛpā bhagavan mamāpi durdaivam īdṛśam ihājani nānu . . . (CC Antya 20.16, Śikṣāṣṭaka 2): "You have done so much favor to us, but I am so unfortunate that I have no desire to hear You." (Hindi) So much unfortunate. (break) That I have already explained, that akusam adhikāro. (laughter) Yes. Caitanya . . . one of the disciples of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, he has taught us,
- dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya
- kaku-śataṁ kṛtvā cāhaṁ bravīmi
- he sādhavaḥ sakalam eva nihāya durād
- caitanya-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam
- (Caitanya-candrāmṛta 8.90)
This is our process. What is that? Now, the Indian system of becoming humble is to take a straw in the mouth. (Hindi) Dante nidhāya tṛṇakam: "So I am taken a grass in my mouth," and padayor nipatya, "I am falling down your lotus feet," and kṛtvā ca kaku-śatam, "and flattering you hundred times. I am submitting you." So any man will agree, "All right, say." So as soon as you give me the chance, then I say. What I say? He sādhavaḥ: "You are a very great personality, sādhu." "Then? What do you want?" Now, sakalam eva: "Whatever nonsense you have learned, please forget." (laughter) "Whatever nonsense rascaldom you have learned, please forget." "Then what shall I do?" Kuru caitanya-candra-caraṇe anurāgam. This is our preaching. First of all we shall. . .
Dr. Patel: Don't forget architecture. I tell him, don't forget architecture, the important just now. (laughing) Forget other thing.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. This is the process. First of all flatter him. When he agrees, "Please tell me . . ."
Dr. Patel: How he became this.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Ask submissively, that "Forget all rascaldom, whatever you have learned, because you do not know what is knowledge. You have simply learned all rascaldom. So please forget it." This is our preaching.
Dr. Patel: "Tell me that knowledge by which I know everything, according to that . . ." that boy? In Upaniṣad? . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: So that is, Kṛṣṇa is speaking. You know everything. By hearing Kṛṣṇa, you know everything. But we'll not do that. We shall stick to that rascaldom what you have learned. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām . . . (BG 18.66). (Hindi) (break)
Dr. Patel: . . . man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu was eulogized by Rūpa Gosvāmī, namo mahā-vadanyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te (CC Madhya 19.53). (aside:) (break) Hare Kṛṣṇa. "You are, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, You are the most munificent because You are giving kṛṣṇa-prema, which is very, very difficult." (aside:) Jaya. (break) . . .not because he . . . in the beginning I said they will not. (laughter) (Hindi) (break) . . . rise early. (Hindi) (break)
Dr. Patel: You go to bed at two-thirty.
Indian man (4): No. Two-thirty. Gets up two o'clock.
Dr. Patel: I go to bed at nine o'clock.
Dr. Patel: I go to bed at nine o'clock, so I get up at three o'clock. So let us do like that. Both of us go to bed at nine o'clock, take a bath . . . (laughs)
Prabhupāda: No, I go at ten o'clock and get up by two. (Hindi) (break)
Dr. Patel: . . . vacanaṁ tava.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). (Hindi) If we want to be recognized by Kṛṣṇa, this is the simple process: go and flatter persons, "Please hear some words from Bhāgavata," that's all. And actually we are doing that. We are not learned, very scholarly.
Dr. Patel: Sir, I read your commentary on Bhagavad-gītā and Rāmānujācārya's. They are absolutely parallel.
Dr. Patel: I think you have taken out of it . . . (laughter)
Prabhupāda: How can I . . .
Dr. Patel: I am just joking.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Our process is to take from the ācāryas. We are not manufacturing. We are not so fools and rascals that we have to manufacture. We have to take the remnants of foodstuff given by the ācārya and explain in the modern way so that people may . . . that is our business.
Dr. Patel: Completely parallel.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why should I . . . if it is parallel, then it is my success.
Brahmānanda: Yes. It's very complimentary.
Dr. Patel: His Sanskrit is very wonderful. Ācārya . . .
Prabhupāda: If it is parallel, that is my success. And if it is not parallel, then it is useless. But they want to give something of his own foolish ideas. That has become nowadays, scholars. If you give some foolish idea—"Oh, he is a great philosopher." That's it. And our process is, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imam rājarṣayo (BG 4.2). We have to receive from the a . . . ācāryopāsanam. That is the way. And this Subodhinī-ṭīkā, Vallabhācārya, as soon as he says, "I have done something better than Śrīdhara Svāmī," immediately Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected him: "Oh, you have done better than Śrīdhara Svāmī?"
Dr. Patel: Śrīdhara Svāmī has made it more or less . . .
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you cannot reject. You cannot say that "I have done better than Śrīdhara Svāmī." If you simply following the footprints of Śrīdhara Svāmī, that is vaiśakti, not that "I have done better than him."
Dr. Patel: All Vaiṣṇava ācāryas are more or less parallel.
Dr. Patel: There's a little difference here and there. It is not much difference.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no difference. Everything. It is, rather, more . . .
Dr. Patel: In philosophy there is no difference, sir. But in . . .
Prabhupāda: In presentation, clarify. Yes. That is our business. Just like what I am doing. I am following the ācāryas, but I am presenting, writing in such a way the modern man can understand. This is our point.
Dr. Patel: Modern man. Modernizing? (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Yes. You know him, this boy? He's a great-grandson of Henry Ford. He has contributed to our Society not less than two crores of rupees.
Dr. Patel: He has got money.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) (laughter)
Dr. Patel: And Chapkha cannot be very not good. Not very good. Your printing is wonderful. From where . . . where is that place? From Japan?
Prabhupāda: America and Japan. We want wonderful books.
Dr. Patel: Very good.
Indian man (5): I saw that printing by . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody has printed such books. And also the language also.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) language (Hindi), Sanskrit into English? Māyayā. . .
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) māyayā . . . they are very much puffed up of being educated. But Kṛṣṇa says māyayāpahṛta-jñānā (BG 7.15).
Dr. Patel: Vedas also depict about māyā. That is why nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna (BG 2.45). No? Am I right?
Dr. Patel: They are the old sticks?
Prabhupāda: Take it away and leave here.
Dr. Patel: No, I don't want it. (laughter) This has come from South Africa?
Prabhupāda: No, no. It was presented by Viśālinī in Vṛndāvana. One American girl student, she has given it. (break)
Dr. Patel: Man-manā bhava (BG 18.65). Perpetually. It is just like an insect climbing a wall. Immediately it comes down on the ground. It takes about twenty-four hours.
Prabhupāda: No, no. If you practice . . . just like these boys. They are chanting "Hare Kṛṣṇa," so their mind is fixed up in Kṛṣṇa. Man-manā. And they can do it without any being afraid by public criticism, because they are mad-bhakta. They have become bhakta. Others, they will afraid: "I am such-and-such person. If I chant, then what the others will speak?" (laughter) But a devotee is not afraid of anyone.
Indian man (6): No, sir, but body is the temple of God. Vaiṣṇavas pray that . . .
Prabhupāda: That everyone . . . dog is also worshiping the body.
Indian man (6): No, (Hindi).
Dr. Patel: We are just now worshiping body, sir. We are worshiping body, and we don't want to worship soul now. That is what he says.
Indian man (6): Body is nothing. The soul is there. That is understood.
Prabhupāda: So if you reject soul and simply worship . . .
Indian man (6): No, soul is there.
Dr. Patel: He wants to say (Hindi) is the point. (Hindi) (break)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) So if you take spiritually advanced, the bodily care is already taken.
Dr. Patel: That is what I have learned. That you were saying before, but then, I mean I got a postscript from one other devotee.
Prabhupāda: No, no. One thing, example, that dead body. Now, when the spirit is gone, now can you take care of the dead body?
Dr. Patel: It rots.
Prabhupāda: So long the spirit is there, it is all right. And as soon as the spirit is gone, it is simply lump of matter.
Indian man (6): No, if you misuse it . . . (Indians talking at once)
Prabhupāda: No, no. First . . . this is practical. You see the importance of the body is so long . . . as long as there is the spirit. So if you take spiritual care, the bodily care is automatically. Just like we are. Are we not taking bodily care? But our main business is spiritual care.
Dr. Patel: But people are starving for twenty-four, I mean forty-eight days. You cannot starve for two days because you have got weakness of the mind. Mind and soul should be one, and the body. . . (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . transcend the bodily and mental platform. Then you come to the spiritual platform.
- indriyāni parāṇy āhur
- indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
- manasas tu parā buddhir
- buddhes tu yaḥ paratas tu saḥ
- (BG 3.42)
You have to come to that platform.
Dr. Patel: Evaṁ buddhvā paraṁ buddhvā . . .
Dr. Patel: Saheb, Thakur Saheb, what he says is right. No, but because we are, we are apratijñāna, so we don't understand it quickly. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . Kali-yuga, always chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma . . . and everything will be clear. Last night Brahmānanda was saying that "We are sticking to you because we know we have got something from you." Otherwise, they are all rich man's sons. They are aristocratic family and industry. Why? I am not bribing them. Now this Mr. Ford has come to me. I have not bribed. He is not to be bribed. (break)
Dr. Patel: Up to three o'clock we are taking rest.
Dr. Patel: No.
Prabhupāda: Up to four.
Dr. Patel: Four. If I come at four-thirty, you are there.
Prabhupāda: No. At that time, I shall not be able to . . . you can come at five. Because after waking up, I prepare. Then at five I begin. Let us meet. And Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). So one has to become dhīra. If one remains adhīra, then he'll never be able to understand the distinction between body and soul.
Dr. Patel: Dhīra means buddhi.
Prabhupāda: Dhīra means sober. Sober, yes. Just like high-court judge. He judges everything very. . .
(break) . . . then he gives his judgment.
Indian man (7): Attention.
Prabhupāda: Full attention. And attention means with good intelligence, (dog barking and growling) not foolishly. (Hindi) That "You are not body. Why you are fighting?" Will they hear? Hey? (Hindi) That "My dear dog, you are not this body. Why you are fighting?" He will never understand. Similarly, if a man does not understand, he is no better than the dog.
Dr. Patel: Śuni caiva śva-pākeṣu paṇḍitaḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we like everyone. We do not reject anyone. Dog cannot understand the philosophy; therefore we call him and give some prasādam. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: So if we take also prasādam, don't . . . (laughing)
Prabhupāda: Therefore prasāda distribution is one of our program.
Dr. Patel: For?
Prabhupāda: For everyone.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) Sama-darśinaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are not neglectful. "Because he is dog, therefore he should be neglected." No. He should be given.
Indian man (8): After all, he is God's creation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Sama-darśinaḥ means that every living being is part and parcel of God. So he is suffering for want of God consciousness, so let us teach something as far as possible. This is our mission. (Hindi) (break) . . . dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Therefore the human being's first business is how to become dhīra.
Dr. Patel: Dhīra does not exactly mean "sober," but something more than sober.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is only one part of it.
Dr. Patel: So many Sanskrit words cannot have translation into English.
Prabhupāda: Dhīra means one who is not disturbed by this bodily concept of life. He is dhīra because he knows that, "I am not this body," even there is some trouble in respect of body. So Kṛṣṇa advised that titikṣasva bhārata.
Dr. Patel: Titikṣasva.
Prabhupāda: "Even there is some disturbance, tolerate it. Don't be disturbed."
Dr. Patel: Mātra-spārśas tu kaunteya, sukha-duḥkha-daḥ (BG 2.14).
Prabhupāda: Yes. So long the body is there, in connection with the skin disease we shall be suffering in so many ways. Just like there was accident. So it does not mean that because there was accident that . . .
Dr. Patel: But somehow or other, you have very much improved after accident, your health.
Prabhupāda: No, I was eating nicely in Africa. The climate is nice.
Indian man (6): Was it?
Dr. Patel: South Africa is just like . . . just like, as cold as Europe.
Prabhupāda: Not very cold, but it is cold. Durban. Durban.
Dr. Patel: Durban, there is a huge population of Indians, and all Gujaratis.
Dr. Patel: Somehow or other, Bengalis and Gujaratis are akin. Why they have one living in west and other in east? What must be the cause of oneness, even in thought and action, in every way?
Prabhupāda: Oneness means Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Dr. Patel: In temperament also. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: That is also external. Real unity is on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (Hindi) The Vedānta begins, athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Just inquire about the soul." And where is that education? This human life, they are opening so many colleges, schools, institutions. Where is the instruction about the soul? So go-kharaḥ. (Hindi) In spite of so much improvement, they are behaving just like cats and dogs. In South Africa the Indians are given the far away from the city.
Dr. Patel: (indistinct) . . . they have been very badly segregated. They can't have any business, I hear.
Prabhupāda: They are put into difficulty.
Dr. Patel: They are following Hitler's method of superiority of . . . they don't understand that Indians are as superior as they are, rather more, ethically.
Prabhupāda: Everyone thinks that he is superior than everyone.
Dr. Patel: No, no. The Āryan race is . . .
Prabhupāda: That is the disease, material disease. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has . . . tṛṇād api sunīcena (CC Adi 17.31): "You just become . . ." (break) (end).