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751217 - Morning Walk - Bombay

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

751217MW-BOMBAY - December 17, 1975 - 54:32 Minutes

Indian man: Kal ka ordinance padha? Ordinance ka raj hota hai abhi padhne ka man karta hai na to koi bhi government aadmi kisi bhi aadmi ko murder kar sakta hai. (Did you read yesterday's ordinance? The ordinance rules, I feel like reading now. Any government person can murder anyone.)

Dr. Patel:. We are all murdered already.

Prabhupāda: You are murdered already (laughing)

Indian man: Kal paper me aaya hai ki jo bhi government servant hai kisi bhi aadmi ka khoon kar sakta hai. uska personal jealousy hone se bhi uske upar koi action nahi le sakta hai. (It has been written in yesterday's paper, that any government man can murder any person. Even if he has personal jealousy, no action can be taken against him.)

Prabhupāda: Accha. (Is it so?) The whole country is already murdered. What are you talking of murder now?

Indian man: I just don't want to talk all these things now.

Dr. Patel: They have gone mad now, sir. Actually they have ransacked the morality of this land, and they are going to ransack the even social conditions. Hum bhi . . . bandook rakhte hain. (I also . . . I keep a gun . . .) I have got one rifle, one gun, one revolver and one pistol. I am keeping always with me now. (to Indian man) Phir wo kya kare ga? (What will he do now?) I can't give you. You must take out a license for it. Saath mein koi marne ke pehle maar do aur phir mar jao dono saath mein. (And before anyone kills you, you kill him and both of you go together. We will go to God for justice.) These people, sir, have really ruined this, this batch of rulers.

Prabhupāda: That is everywhere.

Dr. Patel: Sradar Patel died. That was . . . (indistinct) . . . first thing. He was a man of practice. He could have . . . I mean . . .

Prabhupāda: But who will live? Everyone will die.

Dr. Patel: Everyone will die, that's right. These people, they behave as if they are living permanently. Then they are doing a bad thing, they think that they are . . .

Prabhupāda: So we have to tolerate. There is no other way.

Dr. Patel: That we are doing.

Prabhupāda: Tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata (BG 2.14). They come and go. You have to do your business, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. These people will come and go. Place everything at the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. Even . . .

Dr. Patel: (Patel and friend talk in Hindi aside) Thumne kaha padha. Hindi me hai times me. Khali kiya, botel se bhara nahi. mai aise padhta nahin. (Where did you read this? It is in the Hindi, in the Times. You have emptied, I did not fill. I don't read.) I don't drink. I hardly go out in the evening now. I don't go out in the day. Where did you read?

Indian man: Hum bhi kal ye nahi padha, hum bhi khali.. chod diya. Peeche humne phir dekha ki ye. (I also did not read this yesterday. I also only . . . left it. Then again I saw it at the back . . .)

Prabhupāda: Hmm? So what about our this land we have given? Where is Saurabha? He is not coming? What about this land we have given for road?

Saurabha: That is FSI (Floor Space Index). We are using as FSI.

Prabhupāda: So FSI we are going to have for these buildings?

Saurabha: We have about 60,000 square feet of area we can build here.

Prabhupāda: We are going to utilize it for the towers?

Saurabha: For the other building.

Prabhupāda: Other building?

Saurabha: Yes. You were speaking about constructing another building in the back of the land. We can have about one big building of one hundred and eighty rooms easily.

Prabhupāda: Then it's all right.

Dr. Patel: One hundred eighty rooms? One hundred eighty?

Saurabha: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Very fine. After the building of this completely as per plan . . .

Saurabha: Yes. And then we still have area for gurukula also. Another hundred rooms.

Dr. Patel: Most people who are . . . (indistinct). (break)

Prabhupāda: (aside) Jaya. Yesterday . . . last night, I explained at the Birla house that you have to change only your care of. Now we are care of under material energy, and you have to transfer your under care of spiritual energy. They appreciated.

Dr. Patel: They are under the care of great māyā, mahā-māyā.

Prabhupāda: Everyone . . .

Dr. Patel: . . . is sitting in the building, of all the Birlas.

Prabhupāda: Not Birlas, everyone. (laughing)

Dr. Patel: (laughing) I don't know that, sir. But I . . . I am a rebellion against them. In 1958, sir, I told you, the Congress, when I was a member of the Congress, that I can't be the member of such an institution which just simply lies, telling white lies.

Prabhupāda: No, no. You may say about congressman, and this one, Communist man; everyone is under . . .

Dr. Patel: Is a rascal.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our verdict. Mūḍha. We understand from Bhagavad-gītā . . .

Dr. Patel: Why mūḍha, sir. Mudhatamaḥ!

Prabhupāda: Yes, vimūḍha. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says not only mūḍha but vimūḍha; viśeṣa-mūḍha especifical.

Dr. Patel: (Gujrati) He's a mūḍha.

Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja says the same thing: tato vimūkha-cetasā (SB 7.9.43). Vimūkha cetasā means one who does not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. Tato vimukha-cetasa soce, and simply thinking of desires. "Who are this?" "Those who are nondevotees; one who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Tato vimukha-cetasa. "So why you are searching?" "Māyā-sukhāya: simply for so-called sense gratification for a few days, bhāram udvahato vimūḍhān, making big, big plans. I am thinking of these rascals. What for they are making big, big plans? They will stay here for a few days, and forgetting Kṛṣṇa consciousness they are busy in making plans." This is Prahlāda Mahārāja. And Kṛṣṇa says they are mūḍha, vimūḍha. As soon as you find one not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's immediately mūḍha, vimūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15).

Dr. Patel: That knowledge is, I mean, perished by māyā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Māyā will help you. If you want to forget Kṛṣṇa, māyā will help you, how you can more and more forget.

Dr. Patel: Māyā would help us even for finding out Kṛṣṇa also . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Māyā . . .

Dr. Patel: . . . because the body is the māyā, the mind is the māyā, and the very mind will help us, sir, that doesn't it help us to go towards Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: No. That is not māyā's help. When you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, māyā will not bother with your business. That means you get relief from māyā. You are no more under the jurisdiction of māyā. You. . . now you are under the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. Māyā will trouble you so long you do not go in the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. Ye mām prapadyante māyā.

Prabhupāda: And as soon as you go under the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66), then there is no jurisdiction of māyā. Just like as soon as the sun rises there is no more darkness—automatically. You do not require to dissipate the darkness. As soon as there is sun, everything is light. (aside to passerby) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te (BG 7.14). This is the process. It is simple method. To become under the jurisdiction of māyā, it requires great labor. But to become under the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa, it takes a minute. But these rascals will not do that. Kṛṣṇa . . .

Dr. Patel: Because Kṛṣṇa Himself has made your eyes, all these indriyas outgoing, so . . .

Prabhupāda: Indriyas . . . He has made your eyes to see Kṛṣṇa, not a prostitute. That is your fault. Kṛṣṇa has given you eyes to see Him, but you are utilizing to see a prostitute. So that is not Kṛṣṇa's fault; that is your fault. Eyes are not bad. Kṛṣṇa has given you eyes to see Kṛṣṇa. But we are utilizing for other purpose. That is our fault. We are presenting this Kṛṣṇa's Deity in the temple, but who is coming to utilize his eyes? Nobody is coming. They will go to see cinema, beautiful actress. So they are utilizing the eyes for this purpose.

Dr. Patel: I have seen the last cinema in '58. Gone with the Wind.

Prabhupāda: Not your eyes . . .

Dr. Patel: It was Gone with the Wind.

Prabhupāda: So we are misusing everything. Therefore bhakti means stop this misuse. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170), that is bhakti. Whatever you have got, utilize it properly. Don't misuse it. That is all the instruction. Kuruṣva mad-arpanam (BG 9.27). Kṛṣṇa says, "Whatever you are doing with your senses . . ."

Dr. Patel: . . . tat karma kaunteya mukta-saṅga samācara (BG 4.9).

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is wanted. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they are taking because the senses are creating so much trouble, material existence, finish this—śūnyavādi. But that will not solve the problem. The problem will be solved that you keep your eyes. You don't require to finish it, but cure it. Just like you medical man: If one is blind out of cataract, you don't say that you pluck it, the eyes, and throw it. No. "Please cure it, and you'll be able to see." This is the difference between Māyāvādī philosopher and Vaiṣṇava philosopher. They want to pluck it out, make it zero, śūnyavāda.

Dr. Patel: That śūnyavāda is, I mean, Buddhist . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is the philosophy. Śūnyavādī means they want to make it zero. Your are troubling; you have got so much trouble with your eyes: don't bother, pluck it out. This is their philosophy. And our philosophy is, "No, there is no need of plucking out. Just cure it, and you'll see." That is . . .

Dr. Patel: Antarmukh, make them antarmukh. (Inward, make them aware from the inside.) That is what the Kaṭhopaniṣad teaches us.

Prabhupāda: Every Vedic scripture will advise you that. You take this Upaniṣad or that Upaniṣad; the ultimate is Gitopaniṣad. The final, Gitopaniṣad.

Dr. Patel: Gitopaniṣad.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Gītā is Upaniṣad.

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. That is always mentioned after each of them.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Gitopanisad. So Gitopanisad is the substance and summary of all Upaniṣads, and Upaniṣads means Vedas. That is the Vedic knowledge.

Harikeśa: But if you negate eye, there's no question of seeing.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Harikeśa: If you negate the eye . . .

Prabhupāda: The same principle, that "You are seeing. Now kill yourself: you don't see." That's all. The same philosophy. You are seeing and feeling disturbance—better kill yourself; you'll not see, then all problems solved. This is their advise. "Kill yourself." So who will agree to that?

Dr. Patel: Yes, philosophically kill yourself, and get yourself transferred to a different life.

Prabhupāda: No, no . . .

Dr. Patel: I mean not physically, I mean as a philosophical point . . .

Prabhupāda: When you kill means you finish yourself; no more seeing.

Dr. Patel: Finish your present ego . . .

Prabhupāda: That is your interpretation. Killing means finish everything. Killing does not mean that you will again see. There is no killing.

Harikeśa: But you'll just go in another body . . .

Prabhupāda: That is curing. That is curing. Killing and curing. If you kill yourself, then whole thing is finished. But if you cure yourself, then you see rightly. So we advise cure, not kill. That is our philosophy.

Dr. Patel: You mean cure the ego. Cure the ego.

Prabhupāda: No. Cure the disease.

Dr. Patel: . . . ego is the disease. First disease man is overtaken by.

Prabhupāda: False ego. You can say false ego.

Dr. Patel: The ego s always false.

Prabhupāda: "I exist," this is pure ego. I exist, that's a fact, and when we say that "I exist for this life. I can finish it; there is no next life," that is not pure ego.

Dr. Patel: That should be the ego of God or the ego of you. Swayam ati sankri jisme na dono samai. (Hindi saying) (Whether God's ego or your ego, there cannot be two egos.)

Prabhupāda: No. Samai, samai. You are already samai. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. You are already in Brahman. There is no question of samai. The rascal cannot see. They say samai. Why samai? You are already there. You do not know. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, brahma-bhūta prasannātmā (BG 18.54). I am already there, prasannātmā. If you have the false impression that "I am out of Brahman," that is. . . there is question of samai. But if you know that you are already in Brahman, then where is the question of samai? Prasannātmā. This is real explanation. Brahma-bhuta prasannātmā. Now we understand that I am ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That is real knowledge. I am not this matter. I am not American, I am not Indian. Aham brahmāsmi.

Dr. Patel: "I am not this body."

Prabhupāda: Ah, that is real knowledge. But they are under the impression of this false knowledge. Therefore this samai. Why samai? You are already there. Kṛṣṇa says, mamaivāṁso jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). When the sun is there, the sunshine is also there, already. So you are sunshine, and Kṛṣṇa is sun, so we are already together. But the cloud is there. We are thinking that "I am not sunshine; I am cloud." That is misconception. But when we understand, the cloud is no more there, then aham brahmāsmi, brahma-bhūta prasannātmā. That is wanted. Under the fool's guidance we are becoming fool. And if we take the real guidance, then we come into the real knowledge. We have created a fool's paradise. Everyone is a fool, and he is promising paradise.

Dr. Patel: This is called living under . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: This is going on. Otherwise why there are so many rascals? . . . (indistinct) . . . the fools make it a fool's paradise. Take Bhagavad-gītā as it is, everything's all right. There is no question . . .

Dr. Patel: This māyā is duratyayā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then, mām eva . . . why don't you surrender? Māyā will not disturb.

Dr. Patel: Thandi badi acchi hai. kabhi-kabhi hava aati hai jor se. (This cold is very nice. Sometimes a strong wind blows.) Sir, then, samah sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhakti labhate parām (BG 18.54). In your . . . (indistinct) . . . equipoise, I mean . . . that is the highest . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that you can say when you are yourself brahma bhūta (SB 4.30.20). But if you are not brahma bhūta, that is not possible. They are trying to unite everyone in the United Nation, all cats and dogs. They are simply barking. There is no possibility of unity. That is not possible. They'll simply go on barking. And it is an association of dogs barking. That's all.

Dr. Patel: That you can find it out.

Prabhupāda: So if you keep them dogs, there is no question of unity. If you bring them to Brahman consciousness, aham brahmāsmi, then there will be unity.

Dr. Patel: That is that samah sarveṣu bhūteṣu.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And then when you are in that stage, then you can become qualified to serve God. Mad-bhakti labhate parām. So bhakti is not so easy. Manuṣyāṇām sahareṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3).

Dr. Patel: Bhakti is more difficult than that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not difficult, but because they are rascals, they made it difficult. Kṛṣṇa says, "Immediately." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam śaraṇam vraja aham tvām sarva-pāpebhyo (BG 18.66): "I'll give you protection—immediately, within a second." But they'll not do that. That is māyā. Kṛṣṇa says that it is so easy that you can become immediately brahma-bhūta. Why you should waste time, many, many lives, to come to this conclusion that vāsudeva sarvam iti sa mahātma sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19)? Why you should waste your time, many lives? Do it immediately.

Dr. Patel: Sir, we must have wasted our many lives in past, and we have come to this stage, who knows how . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm, we have come to this stage, we are reading Bhagavad-gītā. You do it now. Why you are delaying? If after many, many births I have come to this conclusion, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa," why don't you do it now? That is intelligence. Ek aadmi bahut parishram karta hai ek karod rupaya kama ke ek bolta hai le ek karod rupaya tu parishram chod, nahi saheb abhi nahi. (One man works very hard and earns one crore rupees. One says: "Here, take one crore rupees and leave the hard work," but he says: "No sir, not now.") How rascal he is! Nahi two crore nahi hum bolta hai aisa rascal hai ek aadmi bota hai le abhi le. (No, not two crores—I say that he is such a rascal. One man says: "Take it, take it now.") "Take it immediately." But he'll not take it. Ek aadmi bota hai ye staircase hai aur ye lift hai idhar se jaoge to immediately pahoonch jaoge aur udhar se jaoge to 3 ghanta lagega. wo bolta hai nahi hum 3 ghanta me jayega. to sala maro kya kare. wo bolta hai abhi hamara duty hai hum 3 ghanta me jayenge bus chalo. (One man says: "This is the staircase and this is the lift. If you go from here, you will reach it immediately and if you go from there, it will take 3 hours." He says: "No, I will go in 3 hours," okay let him go. (laughter) Kṛṣṇa says, "You give up your all duties and just come to Me immediately.") Aur hum bola hamara duty hai bahut sara . . . isme kya karna? To samajh liya ki jo Krishna ke jaane se sab duty khatam ho jayega. (I said it is my duty, a lot of . . . what to do about this? So they understood that, "If we go to Kṛṣṇa, then our duty is over.") Ye log ka . . . (these boys . . .) These boys, they did it. That's all.

Dr. Patel: We are grateful, sir.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes . . . Aaplog to pade-likhe hain, doctor hai. (You people are all educated, you are a doctor.) No, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the nicest movement. Only intelligent man can take it. It is a fact. It is a fact.

Dr. Patel: Maybe. Nahi mai abhi bolta hoo na. (No, I tell you that we are fools.)

Prabhupāda: Fools. There are all fools; otherwise why the movement is there? The movement is there for correcting the fools. Otherwise there is no need of . . .

Dr. Patel: So many fools are corrected; others are left out. (laughing)

Prabhupāda: (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Gujrati conversation)

Dr. Patel: I am not able to do that bhakti. One of the renowned poet of Gujarat. His house is right next to the main temple in Dwaraka.

Prabhupāda: There was one devotee, he . . . some Queen or somebody, she was approached by somebody that two poets are come . . . ah, Kalidāsa, yes. "Kalidāsa poet has come to see you." So she immediately said, "I know only two poets, Vyāsadeva and Valmikī, and all other poets I kick out!"

Dr. Patel: This is Rāmāyaṇa and Mahābhārata.

Prabhupāda: "I know only two poets." So she refused to see Kalidāsa.

Dr. Patel: One Gosvāmi refused to see Mīrābai, and then she said that, "There are only be men at the bhajana, not tha t. . . Kṛṣṇa is the only man . . ."

Prabhupāda: One thing is, we don't find any authoritative scripture that Mīrābai ever met Rūpa Gosvāmī, but they say like that in Vṛndāvana. But from the life of Rūpa Gosvāmī, we understand that the Gosvāmīs were so popular in Vṛndāvana that if there was any family quarrel, husband and wife, they used to come to Rūpa Gosvāmi to settle up, and automatically he would give the decision, and they will accept. So how it is possible that he did not see any woman?

Dr. Patel: He did not, ah, Rūpa Gosvāmi or Jīva Gosvāmī; some other Gosvāmī, they say.

Girirāja: It was Jīva Gosvāmī.

Prabhupāda: Jīva Gosvāmī?

Girirāja: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Why Jīva Gosvāmi should not see woman? That is also doubtful.

Dr. Patel: He, he did see Mīrābai.

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu also never refused to see woman. But womans were offering respect from a distance, that's all. Not very near. But we don't see that He refused to see woman. Why the Gosvāmīs will do that?

Dr. Patel: That is the story going round.

Prabhupāda: Then paṇḍitā sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). How it is possible?

Harikeśa: There's that story of the one woman who was on His shoulder, on that Nṛsiṁha column looking at Lord Jagannātha, and Govinda tried to take her down and Lord Caitanya said no.

Prabhupāda: One woman, out of her eagerness to see Jagannātha, there was big crowd, she jumped up over the shoulder of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and the devotees said, (in an urgent whisper) "Come on, come on down. What you are doing?" Caitanya: "No, she is so eager to see Jagannātha. Don't disturb. Don't disturb. Let her stand on My shoulder." So there is no question of hating woman. We want simply devotee, that's all. But unless we are very advanced, we take precaution. That is another thing.

Dr. Patel: Mana is very grha-grahi. Mind . . . I mean Arjuna was told by Bhagavān in sixth ajya, "Mind is so difficult to control . . ." Jaisa bane waisa aage rakha karo. (How it happens, keep it in the front.)

Prabhupāda: Chaitanya Mahaprabhu bhi bataye hain. (Caitanya Mahāprabhu also said.) He says that, "My mind is disturbed even by seeing an wooden doll of a woman." So that is also there.

Dr. Patel: I mean the Vaiṣṇavas, sir, sādhus, they are not expected to look at the pictures of the women even.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not . . . then how Caitanya Mahāprabhu allowed the woman to stand on His shoulder?

Dr. Patel: He is, was a mahāprabhu. Not for us . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is the criterion, that if one is perfect devotee, then it is all right. And so long he is not or she is not perfect devotee, then there is restriction.

Dr. Patel: In the sādhana stage.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: . . . it is the sādhana, completely sādhana, Sadhya ho jaane ke baad. (After becoming a perfect devotee.) Then he is, everything is equal to him. Sama sarveṣu bhūteṣu.

Prabhupāda: For kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.

Dr. Patel: Sarva sameṣu bhūteṣu. We are not sarva sama as yet.

Prabhupāda: So it depends on the condition.

Dr. Patel: It is said that they are not only look at the female dolls, or even . . .

Prabhupāda: But that is moral instruction. That is moral instruction. Even if you are not a devotee, you should not think of these things. That is the moral instruction. The brahmacārī, if he thinks of woman, that is also restricted.

Dr. Patel: But in eight ways he must observe brahmācārya. Eight ways. All the five senses and the three, mind, mana, buddhi and ahankara.

Prabhupāda: What is the time?

Harikeśa: 7.10.

Prabhupāda: So we shall return.

Dr. Patel: It 7.20? Seven o'clock.

Prabhupāda: So who says 7.10?

Dr. Patel: We will go this way, sir.

Harikeśa: That's what it says at the airport.

Prabhupāda: You are airport?

Harikeśa: Airport time.

Dr. Patel: Airport time is wrong. Every clock is very different time there. Each one has got its own standard.

Prabhupāda: Some times back when I was a young boy, I went to see a football match in Calcutta, Maidan. So after finishing, I came walking through the Bentinck Street. So I saw one time in the beginning, and I came to my house, some watch, and clock is giving the same time. (pause) We are giving very simple formula: just become Kṛṣṇa conscious and all problems will be solved.

Dr. Patel: Very easy formula for all the mūḍhas.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Like us. (laughs loudly)

Prabhupāda: The Doctor is . . .

Dr. Patel: Before you came here . . . you can say anything . . .

Prabhupāda: This is intelligence. This is not mūḍha; this is intelligence. Guru mora mūrkha dekhi' korila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that, "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a fool number one."

Dr. Patel: So you see me also that way.

Prabhupāda: No. That means He is intelligent. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was not a fool, that's a fact, but He presented Himself like that. He is most learned, but He presented before guru, "I am useless, worthless." Tṛṇād api sunīcena . . .

Dr. Patel: I myself, sir, we are all . . . (indistinct) . . . people. I don't mean the . . . (indistinct) . . . like you. We are worthless, we people, we really be worthless. Unless you understand your worth . . . we are really worthless.

Prabhupāda: That is very good.

tṛṇad api sunīcena
taror api sahiṣṇunā
amānina mānadena
kīrtanīya sada hariḥ
(CC Adi 17.31)

That is the qualification for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa: humbler than the grass, tolerant than the tree, giving all respect to others, expecting no respect for oneself. These are the qualification to become perfect Kṛṣṇa conscious. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsa kṣāntir ārjavam (BG 13.8). Amanitva. Although he is very qualified, he says: "No, no, no. I have no qualification." Amānitvam. This is amānitvam. (aside to passerby) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. This is the beginning of knowledge. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahimsa kṣāntir ārjavam. The materialistic, everyone, they're not amānitvam, our, "I'm so respectful."

Dr. Patel: Not "I have done this."

Prabhupāda: No, no. I don't say. This is the philosophy. Amānitvam adambhitvam. Where is that thing? That is taught from the brahmacārī. Brahmacārī, a small boy, he is taught that you become amānitvam adambhitvam, and he accepts it. Because he is small, the brahmacārī, he may be coming from a king's family, but if he's ordered, "My dear boy, take my shoes and brush it," he'll do it immediately, because he's innocent boy. He learns. Therefore brahmacāri gurukule vasan dānta (SB 7.12.1). The mode of life should be trained from the brahmacārī.

Dr. Patel: This British public schools, they are doing that. The school of Harrow and the Eton. The first-standard boys have to brush the shoes of the fifth-standard boys, and the fifth to the sixth, and the sixth to the seventh, and first to the second . . .

Prabhupāda: No, why not to the . . .

Dr. Patel: And the first boy, his shoes goes to the teacher for cleaning.

Prabhupāda: Some idea . . .

Dr. Patel: That is great idea.

Prabhupāda: No. That is also imperfect. Anyway, it is something. Amānitvam adambhitvam: they from the very beginning of their life, they address other's wife as "mother," you see? Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. This is culture, to see every woman except his own wife as mother. Where is that culture?

Indian man: Mahatma Gandhi also changed his life after brahmacārī . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Indian man: Mahatma Gandhi?

Prabhupāda: We are talking of real mahātmās, not politicians.

Indian man: No, no. He was changing after brahmacārī, his life.

Prabhupāda: I do not know much.

Dr. Patel: He took a big vow. He took a big vow at the age of forty-three years. That mahān, mahā-vrata, they call it? For not indulging in sex.

Prabhupāda: That is one of the qualification.

Dr. Patel: That is one of them. But by controlling theirself, people derive much vigor.

Prabhupāda: That is a fact.

Dr. Patel: Because I think woman is the personification of māyā. You can say that way. The whole thing is, I mean, revolving around that.

Prabhupāda: But if you become strong, Kṛṣṇa conscious . . .

Dr. Patel: It may go away.

Prabhupāda: Māyām etam taranti te: there is no more māyā.

Dr. Patel: We must be conscious like Mīrābai or gopīs or big, I mean, like Narsing Mehta . . . (indistinct) . . . when his wife died he said: Accha ho raha hai abhi hum subah . . . (It is good, now in the morning . . .) "I will be able to worship God in a better way," when he lost his wife. These are the . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, that means he became Kṛṣṇa conscious after his wife dead. (laughing) Not before.

Dr. Patel: I mean, that is a saying, I mean I will be unhindered. . .

Prabhupāda: Why should I expect the death of my wife?

Dr. Patel: No, his wife died, and he accepted that way. He was not expecting. We are all dead so far as we are not Kṛṣṇa conscious . . .

Prabhupāda: Dhīra means in spite of presence of agitation, if one is not agitated, that is dhira. And if I pray that "Here is the cause of agitation. Let her die," that is not very good. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: No, after she died. You have misunderstood me, sir. You are . . . you are not . . . even a great bhakta, a great Vaiṣṇava bhakta, and I mean I, I don't think he would . . . he would say . . .

Prabhupāda: Why should I pray for somebody's death?

Dr. Patel: He never prayed for her to die. (everyone laughing) He prayed that because now he will have less hindrance in the worship of God. That is what he meant.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is God conscious. Vaiṣṇava, vāñcha-kalpa-tarubhyas ca krpa-sindhubhya eva ca. Vaiṣṇava is an ocean of mercy. Why he should . . . we should expect another death? No, no, I'm saying . . . nobody, no Vaiṣṇava aspires or thinks that, "He may be hampered or he may be harmed for my benefit." No.

Dr. Patel: What he says, sir . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. I am not argument about him. I mean to say, Vaiṣṇava means para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Vaiṣṇava should be always duḥkhī for others. Vaiṣṇava personally he has no duḥkha. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja says. Naivodvije para duratyaya-vaitaraṇyās tvad-vīrya-gāyana-mahāmṛta-magna-cittaḥ, śoce tato vimukha-cetasa (SB 7.9.43). They are simply anxious for the persons who are godless. That is their . . . even they are godless, even they are enemy of the devotee, still Vaiṣṇava says, "How I can correct him?" Not that "He's my enemy. Let him die." "How I shall correct him?" That is Vaiṣṇava, para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. He is under ignorance, he is talking nonsense—"How shall I correct him?" That is missionary spirit.

Dr. Patel: Ten minutes. 7.10.

Prabhupāda: So we can go. It is very nice movement . . . (indistinct) . . . help us. They have paid already some lakhs, huh?

Devotee: Ashoka gave three lakhs previously.

Prabhupāda: How many lakhs . . .

Girirāja: He gave three lakhs for Vṛndāvana. He said he wants to give more to . . .

Prabhupāda: So let him pay. He's devotee.

Devotee: He said he enjoyed the program very much also.

Prabhupāda: Who said?

Devotee: Ashoka did.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Ashoka's mother said also.

Girirāja: Well, he also, when we were taking dinner, he came up and he said he enjoyed it.

Devotee: Ashoka's mother liked the discourse.

Prabhupāda: Yes, she said.

Devotee: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Therefore they did not put any question. Yes, that is . . .

Dr. Patel: Yes. It is very difficult to put question to you. (Prabhupāda laughs) You mow the opposition down very badly. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: It is all Kṛṣṇa's . . .

Dr. Patel: I am a shameless man to give questions to you. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: How long did I speak?

Harikeśa: Erm, about forty-five minutes.

Prabhupāda: That is my standard, I think.

Dr. Patel: Ye bhakto ko bhojan bhi karaya hoga wo log. (They also must have given prasadam to the devotees.)

Indian man: In that Birla house.

Prabhupāda: Birla house? Yes.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Girirāja: The program was in the garden.

Dr. Patel: Front garden.

Indian man: Wo Birla house . . . (That Birla house . . . )

Dr. Patel: I was there, in that Birla house.

Prabhupāda: You were in Bombay?

Dr. Patel: Yes, in that last room, on that other side. You were in the garden in the front, no?

Indian man: Yes.

Dr. Patel: I was on the side, on the garden side of the room . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . once. Kīrtanānanda Swami has come, he reported that sometimes these European and Americans, they do not like our version, and sometimes they purchase and tear the books, huh? And still they purchase. (laughs) That is the beauty.

Dr. Patel: Europeans, you mean to say?

Prabhupāda: No, no, in America. Kīrtanānanda said. They tear these pages, and again still they purchase. This example is given. Just like hot sugarcane juice. Because it is hot, it cannot be taken. But one cannot avoid tasting it, (laughter) sugarcane juice hot. So because we speak everything against their so-called knowledge, and still they want to taste it. Hot sugarcane juice.

Dr. Patel: Your this Bhāgavata commentary is really wonderful. I am critically studying now.

Prabhupāda: Thank you.

Dr. Patel: Second reading of mine. On the first reading I just . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, they read our books for the purport.

Dr. Patel: But you have, I mean, collected from two, three, four or five sources.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Professor Dimmock said that "Here is the commentation who has practiced devotion in his life."

Dr. Patel: That is a fact. I mean, those who are research scholars, they can write down better about their work if . . . if I write down about something . . .

Prabhupāda: He cannot write the . . .

Dr. Patel: . . . I can't write down that way. Because you have done it, you can do it better.

Prabhupāda: That is our mission. Āpani ācāra prabhu jīvera śikhāinu. First of all you behave yourself, then teach. Without being accomplished in your life, don't teach.

Dr. Patel: It is ācāra para . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Āpani . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement was that. Āpani ācāra prabhu jīvera śikhāinu.

Dr. Patel: You teach by your action.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . sannyasī alpa citte bahu kori mane. This is the warning of Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Dr. Patel: The Vaiṣṇavas, I mean, teaching is that the Vaiṣṇavas should not see any faults in the sādhus or the sannyāsīs. Just look at the good side, then forget all of that.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That, you may do that. But that is not a sannyāsī. Sannyāsī is smoking cigarette, drinking tea. . .

Dr. Patel: Then they are not sannyāsīs. Nyas kiya hua sanyaasi. (Sannyasi who is not renounced.)

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam . . . (BG 18.66). Kaun daba? (Which mendicant?) Hmm, who goes there? No gentleman goes there. Angla baba, ek tho Brindavan mein. (One English mendicant in Vrindavan.)

Prabhupāda: No, no—I don't know

Dr. Patel: So many people say . . . pita hai na woh kya naam hai charas (. . . he drinks, what is his name?) Heroin. About these American boys smoking their hashish, their LSD. They are smoking all sorts of things.

Prabhupāda: They have learned from India. The American hippies, they have learned from these so-called rascals. Yes. Ginsberg, he introduced this. He came to India, went to Haridwar, he saw so many rascals, sādhus, smoking gañjā. He thought, "This is the way . . ."

Dr. Patel: Ācchā. Celo.

Prabhupāda: No, Nahi wo bichara kya janta hai. (No, what does he know—poor fellow.) Hmm.

Dr. Patel: Same thing—our boys have started smoking LSD in the colleges here. Yes, yes. In Grand Medical College boys have started smoking. They know very well that it is a bad thing, medical students. Never bother the arts and science students. Sab pite hain abhi. (Everyone drinks now.) Because their ideal starts from American precedents. The last president was so idealistic, so . . . (laughing)

Indian devotee: A few days back in the newspapers there was . . . smoking causes damage to the brain . . .

Dr. Patel: It causes damage everywhere, because it damages your blood vessel which carries the vital fluid to all the organs. You see, the blood vessels are spoiled and narrowed down so not sufficient amount of blood will get to your brain, to your heart, to your lungs, your everything practically. Follow? This is not one of . . . (indistinct) . . . they smoke this gañjā, sir, because artificially they go into a sort of a trance. That is what the psychedelic drugs.

Prabhupāda: That man also says like that.

Dr. Patel: Psychedelic drugs. I mean I read about these psychedelic drugs, and then, you see, this artificial trance, no doubt, that is much different from the samādhi that you get, or others. But they, that is why they are tempted to do it. Same with the LSD. That means they find some sort of a pleasure in it. Sādhus get pleasure in samādhi; they get this artificial samādhi by drugs. Hah?

Prabhupāda: Sādhu, they take pleasure in real happiness. Satyānandi. Ramante yoginaḥ anante satyānanda. They do not know what is satya, so how they will take pleasure?

Dr. Patel: They are ātmārāmas.

Prabhupāda: Param satyam dhīmahi. They do not know what is param satya.

Dr. Patel: Temporarily they get this param satya . . . (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Yogi means satyānanda . . .

Dr. Patel: Unko bhi temporary hota hai. (They also have temporary pleasure.) That is controlled.

Indian man: Ek dum lagayega, to pada rahega, phir se uthke phir lagayega. (One smoke he will have and then lie around, again he will get up and again smoke.)

Dr. Patel: They go round. One, two, three, like that. Not one man . . .

Indian man: Prabhupāda jo log aphim peete hain na to unka kya hota hai maine dekha hai . . . kendra me ek bada hall aur khatiya laga hua hai. wo log itna bada . . . phir piyega phir so jayega phir uthega phir piyega . . . to hum pitaji ke saath gaya tha mela dekhne ke liye. Pitaji pehle kabhi . . . raha. (Prabhupāda, those who take opium—what happens to them? I have seen . . . in the center there is a big hall and a big cot has been placed there, so big . . . they drink and sleep again, they get up and again drink. So once I went with my father to see the fair.) Earlier father . . .

Prabhupāda: China.

Dr. Patel: The whole, I mean, Japan was basically done, I mean, done to practical death by this opium smoking. Yes, whole China.

Prabhupāda: Wo kaisa. (Like how.) The Britishers, they were taking opium from India and selling there and making money.

Dr. Patel: And now Chinese leaders were rejoicing that American boys smoking LSD. I read in papers . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . because they simply hang them.

Prabhupāda: Saurabha, you have brought these logs from Vṛndāvana?

Saurabha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So why they are lying idle?

Saurabha: They are not ours, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Then why it was brought here?

Saurabha: They were used for the temple . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Scaffolding?

Saurabha: They will be used for the scaffolding. For those high things. Because otherwise we have to cut them, and it's very waste of money.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Saurabha: If we cut them . . .

Prabhupāda: No, not cutting.

Saurabha: No. These poles, they all set in size nine feet. Those there, they're about fifteen to eighteen feet. So we use them only for the scaffolding.

Dr. Patel: (indistinct Hindi) . . . anyhow, they have done it very quickly. Our engineers could not go so quick as that. You are quite fast. And the structure is very strong.

Prabhupāda: (laughter) I say they are quite slow.

Dr. Patel: No, no, but it takes its own time for curing and all these things. How can an engineer accelerate that natural process? And that structure is really extremely strong . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, no. We want to see the temple also. (kīrtana) (end)