760417 - Conversation - Bombay
Indian man: . . . stayed with the devotees in the temple . . .
Indian man: . . . and reached the peace of mind which I was not able to get, whole of my life, I was able to achieve by staying in your temple myself. You know for example I am in my own . . . (break)
Prabhupāda: As soon as you speak plain truth they will go away. (laughter) If you go on flattering, then they will stay. What is that? If you make Transcendental Meditation you will increase your sex power and . . .
Indian: Rajneesh said that.
Indian: Rajneesh said that.
Devotee: Less blood-pressure.
Devotee: He said last night, less blood-pressure, from meditation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Less blood-pressure. The difficulty is that we want to be cheated, and there are so many cheaters. There are cheaters; if they find, "Here is a man he can be easily cheated," he takes advantage. But mostly they want to be cheated. As soon as you say that "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa," he will not take it very nice. "Why shall I surrender?" Is it not? What do you think? "This is too much." That means he wants to be cheated, and if somebody comes, "Why shall you surrender to Kṛṣṇa? You are independent. Why you are taking . . . why you are becoming dependent on God? You are working hard. Why you are giving credit to God." Yes. Big, big sannyāsī has said like this.
Indian lady: If they say like that, then they are not sannyāsīs in the real sense of the word.
Prabhupāda: He is a rascal. He is a rascal . . .
Indian lady: They are not sannyāsīs in the real sense of the word.
Prabhupāda: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. This is the description. They do not surrender and they do not teach others to surrender. Then what they are? The formula is there:
- na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ
- prapadyante narādhamāḥ
- āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ
- (BG 7.15)
One who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, they are described in this verse as duṣkṛtinaḥ, means most sinful; mūḍhāḥ, rascal; narādhamāḥ, lowest of the mankind. "No, no. They are sannyāsī, very learned scholar." Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā: they have lost their knowledge by the influence of māyā. Why it is so? Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. The root cause is that he is in rebellion against God. You'll find this rebellious men 99.9%. Rebellious. "Ha, what is God? I am God." You'll find. If you hold meeting that "Why you are after God? You are God. You will realize by meditate . . . by Transcendental Meditation you will become God, you are God." In this way if you bluff, thousands of people will come to hear your lecture, and as soon as you say: "God is there, and Kṛṣṇa is God. You surrender to Him," "Oh, these are old fools. Primitive." (explains points in Hindi) Sectarian. This is the position. Ayi (Hindi) Real understanding: to hear and to think over the matter. Tad viddhi. Viddhi means understand.
- tad viddhi praṇipātena
- paripraśnena sevayā
- (BG 4.34)
It is already there, Kṛṣṇa says. (break) Why he is wasting his time and money like that? It is already there: tathā dehāntara-prāptir (BG 2.13). Kṛṣṇa says. That means he does not believe in Kṛṣṇa. He is becoming more than Kṛṣṇa.
Indian: Also he has collected so many facts.
Prabhupāda: Why? What is the use of collecting facts if the fact is already there?
Indian (2): Not it is there.
Indian: It will be of some use to others, who don't believe.
Prabhupāda: Don't believe in the rascals, mūḍhāḥ. So you can try for the mūḍhās. That is another thing. And waste your time.
Indian (2): . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: But the fact is there already, any intelligent man can understand. Why . . . if they are trying for the mūḍhās, the mūḍhās will never understand.
Indian: So which way is better, bhakti mārga or karma mārga?
Prabhupāda: No mārga. Knowledge first of all.
Indian: Knowledge and then . . .
Prabhupāda: This is knowledge. Kṛṣṇa begins Bhagavad-gītā with this knowledge. Because Arjuna showed the symptoms as if he is not in knowledge, therefore He chastised him:
- aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ
- prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase
- (BG 2.11)
"My dear Arjuna, you are talking just like very learned man, but," gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ, "the subject matter which you have taken, this body, and you are lamenting about this body—'The body of my brother will be finished, my this will be finished, this will happen, this will happen'—only on the bodily concept." So this body, either when there is life or when there is no life, gatāsūn agatāsūṁś nānuśocanti paṇḍ . . . "This is not the subject matter of a learned scholar to study this body. It is a lump of matter. Try to understand what is within the body."
- dehino 'smin yathā dehe
- kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
- tathā dehāntara-prāptir
- dhīras tatra na . . .
- (BG 2.13)
This is the beginning of knowledge. One who does not know this knowledge, his knowledge has no value, nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. He is not a paṇḍita. In another place it is confirmed, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke. One who is accepting this body, as self. Eh?
- sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ
- yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
- janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ
- (SB 10.84.13)
One who is accepting this body . . . the whole world is going on. This is the subject matter of our preaching, that "You are not this body, you are soul. You are part and parcel of God. Do like this." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. This is the beginning of understanding. But everyone is under this concept that, "I am this body." "I am Hindu, "I am Muslim," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that." So on this basic principle of ignorance there cannot be any knowledge. You may be research scholar and this scholar, that scholar. This is a no . . . no. It is not the fieldwork of knowledge. (aside:) Hmm. Bring one knife.
Indian: Svāmī, svāmī, how to cultivate the concentration, and what is the . . . (indistinct)?
Prabhupāda: Concentration . . . you are doing other businesses with concentration. You are doing work in the office with concentration. You are studying things with concentration. Similarly, you have to bring concentration for understanding what you are. Where is the difficulty?
Indian: Concentration towards to higher . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, concentration means if you study your body. Eh? So "What I am?" This subject matter you study, analyze your body. It is very easy, what is this body. First of all your breathing. Study what is his breathing. You'll say . . . you'll understand it is nothing but air. Do you think that breathing is life? Because this breathing, it is air, so when the breathing is stopped you can replace it by some mechanical arrangement. It is coming through the nose. But does it mean you can bring life? Hmm? So you study your breathing, you study your blood, you study your bone, you study your everything, whatever you have got, this combination—you'll find no life there. Then you understand that life is different from this material combination. This is concentration. You can do. It is very easy to analyze your whole body, and you'll find that that there is no life in these material ingredients, that life is different from this bodily combination. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: apareyam itas tv viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā (BG 7.5). These material ingredients, they are inferior, aparā. There is a superior, superior thing, itas tv viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā. What is that? Jīva-bhūtā, that is living entity. So you can study your own thing, if you take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. Now Kṛṣṇa says like this, what is your objection? It is Hindu conception or Muslim conception? It is for everyone.
Indian: Concentration is just . . . (Hindi).
Indian: A child's concentration is just, the other . . .
Prabhupāda: (aside) Hmm. You cannot cut it?
Devotee: The knife is not very sharp . . .
Devotee: The knife is not very sharp.
Indian: Hmm, that is not the way to cut it.
Indian: Take out this slice, some slice . . .
Indian: . . . and cut it into two pieces.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You do not know how to cut. One who knows, let him cut.
Indian: Take out a full slice.
Prabhupāda: Tad-vijñānārthaṁ gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). (laughter)
Devotee (2): This is sharp.
Prabhupāda: Everything requires a guru; otherwise he remains a fool, rascal, that's all. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi with man) Hmm. (Hindi). In every item you require a guru. And to understand Kṛṣṇa, or God, everyone is independent. (laughter) Just see the foolishness. Yata mata tata patha. "Ah, you consider about your own God. It doesn't require any guru." This foolishness is going on. For cutting a mango he requires a guru, and to understand Kṛṣṇa, he doesn't require a guru. This foolishness is going on. And Kṛṣṇa says:
- tad viddhi praṇipātena
- paripraśnena sevayā
- upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ
- jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ
- (BG 4.34)
Kṛṣṇa says you have to understand, like this. But everyone is thinking, "Why shall I go to guru?" (aside) (Hindi). What is this? Take this. Oh, that's all . . .
Indian: Vegetable. (Hindi)
Devotee (2): She just left.
Indian: Ācchā. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Why left?
Prabhupāda: Just see how he has cut. It requires a guru. (laughter) Here, this morning, I was citing that a brahmacārī should be very expert, dakṣā. Was I not explaining?
Prabhupāda: So if you do not become expert, then there is deficiency. (aside) No, distribute this. First of all finish that, then . . . keep it, give everyone. One piece, everyone.
Devotee: We cut it up smaller.
Devotee: For everyone, a little smaller.
Prabhupāda: No small. Give him. No, no, that's right. Hmm. (Hindi). But if he wants to remain a fool, rascal, what can be done? Every direction is there, and it is given by Kṛṣṇa for this purpose, that when He will be absent, this is left for their study; they will get knowledge. (Hindi conversation about bringing water) (Hindi) we are simply canvassing that "You understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is and you get all knowledge." This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (background Hindi conversation) (Hindi) This is our mission. We are not manufacturing anything. That is not our purpose. As others are manufacturing the ways of realization, we don't do that. This is not our behavior, because we know we are personally defective. We are all fools. But what I am speaking, that is not defective; that is perfect, because we are speaking Kṛṣṇa's word. Hmm. That is not defective; that is perfect. So we are teaching our preachers that, "Don't say anything defective. Simply say what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. That is perfect." And whatever little success is there, only on account of this, that we don't manufacture anything, we simply present what Kṛṣṇa has said. Some imaginary . . . (Hindi) If the tree already is there, why should we manufacture and research? What is this research?
Devotee: . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: There are millions and millions of living entities, and they are making research in the laboratory how to produce life from matter. Just see. How rascaldom is going on. What credit you will get? Suppose you, in the laboratory, you produce one life from matter. Suppose. You have not done it; suppose you do it. Then what is credit to you? There are already millions and millions of lives. We are overcrowded. (laughter) And this rascal is trying to produce a life in the laboratory. Just see, how rascal they are.
Indian: We may be thinking only God can produce this, but . . .
Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from God, but what credit you'll get if already there are millions and millions of living entities all around? What credit you will get, suppose in the test tube you create one life in the laboratory? Who will give you credit? Only the fools and rascals will give. I will not give. We know that already there are so many lives. So we give that person who has created so many lives. Why shall I give you credit? Hmm? There are millions and millions of goldmines, eh? So I shall give the credit to Him, or a rascal producing a little piece of gold I shall give him credit? If gold producing is so important that one who has created millions and millions of mines of gold . . .
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda . . .
Prabhupāda: . . . he is to take credit . . . (aside) Oh, come on . . . (laughter) He is to take credit, or one who has produced a little piece of gold, he is to take credit? Boliye, whom I shall give credit? Last year I went to South America, er, Africa. In the Johannesburg city there are so many goldmines. In the city, so many goldmines. So who has created this gold? (aside) Thank you. So many goldmines I have seen. And this is in one planet; there are millions of planets there are also goldmines. Who has created this gold? Somebody has created. So whom shall I give credit? (Hindi) or this?
Indian (2): I think by jñāna mārga they are working with Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: What is jñāna? If they do not take the jñāna given by Kṛṣṇa, what is jñāna-mārga? It is ajñāna-mārga. Kṛṣṇa is giving you jñāna—you refuse to take it—and what is your jñāna-mārga?
Indian (2): As your disciple knows, they were spreading . . .
Prabhupāda: No disciple or your disciple. I say that if there is jñāna already, so if you don't accept it, then what is your jñāna mārga then?
Indian (2): No, they accept the jñāna, and then they utilize it . . .
Indian: What is the meaning of jñāna?
Indian (2): Huh?
Indian: What is the definition of jñāna?
Indian (2): No, I mean what is the fact?
Prabhupāda: So what do you think, fact?
Indian (2): After seeing the mountain, they found that it, how the mountain is built, and they have created cement. So we can build houses, just like Kṛṣṇa's agent. Likewise I humbly think that in jñāna mārga they seem to work, those who are doing it.
Prabhupāda: To manufacture cement?
Indian (2): No. Manufacturing anything, they are also going with Kṛṣṇa, going with the nature. They are not going against the nature. And we, or one people are going against nature, and so we are suffering. If we are sick, doctor advises to go with the nature.
Prabhupāda: (aside) Thank you. Hmm. Jñāna mārga, if you actually in knowledge, that is jñāna mārga. But if you not in knowledge, that is not jñāna mārga.
Indian (2): (several talking simultaneously)
Indian: Knowledge of the self is jñāna mārga.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the first knowledge.
Indian: It is not in . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all you have to know what you are. Because you are trying to adjust things to mitigate your distress and increasing your happiness. This is the struggle. Everyone is struggle for minimizing distress or making zero distress and getting happiness. But do you think in this world this is obtained, this stage is achieved, that there is no distress, only happiness? Then what is your jñāna mārga? If there is still distress, then what is your jñāna mārga? That means ajñāna mārga. You are trying, making research, to banish distress and get happiness, but if you have not gained that position, then where is your jñāna mārga? Who has obtained that position that there is no distress, simply happiness? Is there anybody here? Everyone says: "Oh, I am so much distressed." Then where is jñāna mārga?
Indian: But there's nothing wrong in enquiring into the . . .
Prabhupāda: No, you can waste your time . . .
Indian: . . . into the nature.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another foolishness. That is another foolishness. If you search out in your own way, moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). If you do not know the way, then what is the use? You will be baffled. You will be baffled. Suppose in the airplane, if you do not know which side I shall go to Calcutta, then you will be baffled. He must know which side—north, east, west, the latitude, longitude—then the pilot is expert. Suppose I am on the plane, and the pilot is there. Without pilot we are all bewildered. We do not know. Suppose if somehow or other on the plane the pilot is finished; then see what is your condition. Your all jñāna mārga will be finished.
Indian (2): You can't go then. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: So without pilot there is no jñāna mārga.
Prabhupāda: (conversation in Hindi) . . . mūrkha mārga . . . double mūrkha. This is going on. (Hindi with guests) Tad vijñānam, it is said. The ordinary jñāna is not recommended. Tad vijñānam. Viśeṣa jñāna, or scientific knowledge, that is wanted. (Hindi) . . . mūrkha jñāna Ph.D. title. (laughter) Etad jñānam. Just see what is jñānam. Eh. (Hindi) Amānitvam adambhitvam, in the Thirteenth Chapter you will find, amānitvam adambhitvam (BG 13.8).
Indian: . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam, ācāryopāsanaṁ. Hmm. Read it.
Devotee: There's five verses together.
- amānitvam adambhitvam
- ahiṁśā kṣāntir ārjavam
- ācāryopāsanaṁ śaucaṁ
- sthairyam ātma-vinigrahaḥ
- indriyārtheṣu vairāgyam
- anahaṅkāra eva ca
- aśaktir anabhiṣvaṅgaḥ
- nityaṁ ca sama-cittatvam
- mayi cānanya-yogena
- bhaktir avyabhicāriṇī
- aratir jana-saṁsadi
- adhyātma-jñāna-nityatvaṁ . . .
- (BG 13.8-12)
Prabhupāda: Adhyātma-jñāna-nityatvaṁ. Then?
Devotee: Etaj jñānam iti proktam . . .
Prabhupāda: Etaj jñānam. This is jñāna. Or all rascals.
Indian: Etaj jñānam, vijñānaṁ.
Prabhupāda: Ye jñānam. Or all rascaldom. Etaj jñānam . . .
Devotee: Iti proktam.
Prabhupāda: . . . iti proktam. This is accepted knowledge. And then?
Devotee: Ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Except this, all are ajñānam, all rascaldom. The cement manufacturer is a rascal, and the atom bomb rascal—all rascal. And here is jñāna. Etaj jñānam. Everything is there. Etaj jñānam. Then? Yad ato 'nyathā ajñānaṁ. Is it not?
Devotee: Etaj jñānam iti proktam ajñānaṁ yad ato . . .
Prabhupāda: Iti proktam, it is accepted this is jñāna. Yad anyathā ajñānaṁ.
Indian: What was going on just now, for a long time . . .
Indian: . . . was just meditation, without knowledge, which actually . . .
Prabhupāda: This is meditation.
Indian: No, which was actually speculation.
Indian: Meditation with knowledge, that becomes devotion.
Prabhupāda: Yes, knowledge you have to receive from the person who knows. That is knowledge.
Indian: If I question someone . . .
Prabhupāda: If you manufacturer knowledge, that is ignorance.
Indian: So if it was just meditation but without the air of knowledge . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, meditation means . . .
Indian: . . . it was just speculation . . .
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Meditation . . .
Indian: . . . and we were just speculating in different directions.
Prabhupāda: . . . that is defined, that dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena (SB 12.13.1). Dhyānāva, this is meditation. So this is meditation, dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). Yogī, they want to see Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ (BG 18.61), Īśvara is there, so yoga means to find out that īśvaraḥ within the heart. That is real yoga.
Indian: The effort was there, but they were just speculating.
Prabhupāda: No, effort, any effort, if you do not follow . . .
Indian: Yes . . .
Prabhupāda: . . . the instruction of higher authority, this is useless effort. Simply waste of time. You cannot become by your own effort a medical man. That is not possible. You have to go to the medical college, you have to learn under the medical man; then you become a medical man. Otherwise, if you sit down at home and meditate on medical science, what you will get? You will simply waste your time. First of all know what is jñānam. The first jñāna is amānitvam. What is the meaning is there?
Prabhupāda: Humility. The first requisition is humility that, "I have no knowledge; I have to go to somebody who has knowledge." This is humility. And if you think, "I have got very advanced knowledge. Why shall I go to anyone?" there is no entrance in knowledge. He is finished in the
Prabhupāda: Yes, ārati.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (Hindi)
Devotee: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda!
Prabhupāda: Hare Krishna. Thank you.
Devotees: (offer obeisances)
Prabhupāda: Yes, also. (break) Everyone should become a preacher.
Devotee: Sometime we should go to Bihar also?
Prabhupāda: Why not? Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (Caitanya Bhāgavata). (aside) Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)