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760613 - Conversation - Detroit

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760613R1-DETROIT - June 13, 1976 - 45:26 Minutes

(Conversation with Mother and Sons)

Mādhavānanda: Have you read the other cantos also? You read all the way up to the Fifth Canto?

Mother: I read so much, you know, and I have four children . . . (indistinct) . . . doesn't live at home—and I read so much that people probably wonder how I get my work done. But it gets done. (Prabhupāda chuckles) And it's like I'm in another world. It's really great. I had a dream about you, Prabhupāda. And I dreamed . . . this is a dream that's coming true. But you didn't acknowledge me because I didn't say "Kṛṣṇa." (Prabhupāda laughs) And then when I did, then you did, and you asked me what I knew about Kṛṣṇa, and I didn't answer you because I didn't want to display my ignorance.

Prabhupāda: Very good. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and be one of our members. Your son is also very good. Mother good, son good. According to our Indian estimate, son acquires the quality of mother and the daughter acquires the quality of the father.

Mother: I didn't understand.

Pradyumna: You didn't understand? The son acquires the quality of the mother and the daughter acquires the quality of the father. So like mother, like son.

Mother: When . . . (indistinct) . . . was living in the temple, I didn't tell Kim this, but he looked ten years younger than he does right now, so . . .

Mādhavānanda: When he was living in the temple he looked ten years younger. I was thinking he should live in the temple again.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. One clergyman, he asked me, "Swāmījī, why your disciples look so bright?" So that's a fact.

Mother: All the devotees.

Prabhupāda: Because they are spiritually enlightened. That is the cause of brightness. And materially involved—moroseness. Because it is ignorance. Material life means life of ignorance, and spiritual life means life of enlightenment. That is the difference. Material life is called tama. Tama means darkness. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya. This is the Vedic mantra. "Don't remain in darkness." But people cannot understand that, "I am living in the light. Why I'm darkness?" So darkness means without any spiritual enlightenment. That is darkness. So the Vedic injunction is "Don't remain in darkness. Come to the light." The light is my spiritual life, and material life means darkness. Because he does not know what is going to happen next. You are under the laws of material nature. The nature will act according to the association you make, exactly. You do not know that you are infecting some contagious disease. You may not know it, but it will act. In due course of time, you'll develop that disease and suffer. Similarly, without knowledge, in ignorance, imperceptibly we are associating with a certain law of nature, and we shall be victimized. We may not know it, but we shall be victimized. That is the life of ignorance. A child does not know that if he touches the fire it will burn and it will cause some disease, some sore. He does not know. But he, somehow or other, if he touches fire, these things will come. This is the life of ignorance. You do something, you do not know what is the effect. But the effect will come, and you'll have to suffer. You know or not know, it doesn't matter. That is ignorance. Life of darkness. The Christian theologicians, they say that, "Why shall I suffer for my . . .?" They do not believe in the karma, fruitive activity. But that means ignorance. They have no sufficient knowledge. Karma is there and effect is there, but they do not know it. Poor fund of knowledge. Therefore it is failing. They have failed, these Christian priest, to explain everything philosophically.

So advanced Westerners, they are now educated in science philosophy, they are not attracted with these dogmatic views. So to remain in ignorance is animal life. To be enlightened is human life. And the topmost enlightenment is to understand God and to love Him. That is topmost enlightenment. Unfortunately, there is no education to know what is God, and what to speak of loving Him. This is modern civilization—ignorance. A civilization of ignorance. They do not know what is what. Simply speculating, wasting time, talking all nonsense. This is going on in the name of education. But actually they are in ignorance. They do not know what is what. They are reading so many philosophical speculation, horrible condition of the so-called philosopher, scientist. Simply "I believe," "In this believe, that believe." You believe . . . I believe something. That is your . . . (indistinct) . . . your belief is not final. That is creating chaotic condition. You believe some way, I believe something, he believes something. What is the profit? Chaos.

So all these philosophers, scientists, they believe, "I believe," as if his belief will be a doctrine. Why he believes like that? People also accept like that. Nobody questions that a person says: "I believe," that means he is not in perfect knowledge. But in Vedic śāstra, there is no question of belief. This is the fact. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi (Padma Purāṇa). It never says that, "I believe there are so many aquatics." No. Clear declaration, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi: there are nine hundred thousand different forms of life in the water. Bās. This is Vedic knowledge. It never says: "I believe." What is the meaning of belief? You must know definitely and declare it. That is Vedic knowledge. Speculation is not allowed. Truth must be declared as it is. (aside) That Bengali woman wanted to see me? Mrs. Dasgupta.

Mādhavānanda: I sent someone to find her.

Prabhupāda: So here is definitive knowledge in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. There's no question "I believe" or "You believe." No. What you are, your belief? You may believe wrongly. You are not perfect. They do not accept this, that every one of the conditioned souls is imperfect, with four defects: illusion, committing mistake, cheating and imperfectness of senses. Who will say it is not? It is. If you have got imperfect senses, then what is the use of your belief? If the child says, "Oh, there is no father. I have never seen my father," does it mean there is no father? Because you are child, because you have got mother, there must be father, you believe or not believe. So these rascals say, "I don't believe in God." Why? As it is inevitable—the mother is there, the child is there—there must be father. You may not know him, but you can know him through your mother. But must be father. There is no question of "I don't believe there is father." No, that cannot be . . . (indistinct) . . . it is like that, everything fact. No question of belief. You believe or not believe, there is father. Similarly, these rascals nowadays, they say: "We don't believe in God." So you believe or not believe, God is there. Who cares for your believe or not believe? The same way: the mother is there, the child is there—there must be father. There is no argument. Is it not? Can anyone say: "Yes, my mother is there, I am there; I don't believe there is father"? Is it feasible? No. Common sense. So these rascals who do not believe in God, they're simply rascals. Mūḍha, narādhama, that is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Anyone who has no understanding of God, he's lowest of the mankind and rascal number one. Hmm? What do you think?

Satsvarūpa: Sometimes there's a question that I'm asked, that we say we're imperfect so we have to receive perfect knowledge. But they say if you're always imperfect, then how can you know that it's perfect, what you're hearing?

Prabhupāda: Yes, we are receiving knowledge from the perfect. Just like a child does not believe. A boy, he has not seen his father. He does not believe that there is father. But if the mother says: "Yes, my dear child, there is father," so then his knowledge is perfect. With his imperfect knowledge, he was disbelieving that there is father, but when the mother says, he has to accept it. Then his knowledge becomes perfect. He has not seen who is father. That's a fact, maybe. And . . . but the mother is authority. She says: "Here, my dear child. There is father." Then his knowledge his perfect. So we may be imperfect, the child is imperfect, but when he gets the knowledge from the perfect source, mother, then it is perfect. Similarly, we, we never say that we are perfect. If you are perfect, then why you are learning? We are trying to become perfect.

So our process is that we are receiving knowledge from the perfect. Therefore whatever we say, it is perfect. A child does not know, "What is this, father?" The father says: "My dear child, it is called microphone." So after that, if he takes it and declares to anyone, "This is microphone," that is perfect, although he's a child—because he's learned it from the perfect father. This is our process. We don't speculate. We don't speculate whether there is father or not. That is not our process. We ask from the mother, "Mother, they say I have got father. I have never seen." So mother says: "Yes, my dear child, you have got a father." Then finish. Knowledge is perfect. And the child cannot challenge, "I have never seen my father. How can I believe you?" This is nonsense. Your mother says, that is fact. That's all. Finished. You cannot challenge mother: "Mother, I have never seen my father. How can I believe?" That is nonsense! This is going on. "I have never seen God. Can you show me God?" This rascaldom is going on . . . (indistinct) . . . first of all you must know you are rascal. How can you see God? You hear from the authority who knows God. That is the injunction.

tad viddhi praṇipātena
paripraśnena sevayā
upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ
jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ
(BG 4.34)

You have to approach tattva-darśī, who has seen God through spiritual eyes.

So one has to approach such a person who actually knows God, seen God, and approach him, praṇipātena. Not like that childish challenge. By surrender: praṇipātena. Then question. First of all surrender. Praṇipātena, paripraśnena. Not by challenging. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Therefore one has to go to guru, where there is no challenge. There is no question of challenging. You can make question. That is another thing. But not challenge. Then you'll be deceived. Therefore first condition is praṇipātena. Without praṇipāta, you cannot make advancement.

So this philosophy, our philosophy . . . our or anyone's philosophy. Philosophy is not for our or yours. Philosophy is philosophy. That is a science. Philosophy is the science of sciences. That is the description of philosophy. In our college days we were philosophy student of Professor, Dr. W. S. Urquhart. He defined that, "Philosophy is the science of sciences." There are different departments of scientific knowledge. When they are taken together, the original science is philosophy. Philosophy is the science. Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam etad jñānam. Tad ajñānaṁ yad anyathā. Is it not stated in the Bhagavad-gītā? Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. To know the Absolute Truth, that is philosophy. So the simple philosophy is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, that:

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ
tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma
ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
(BG 14.4)

To understand God, a simple method. Simple method to . . . just like the earth is there, everybody knows. And from the earth different varieties of living entities are coming. The grass is coming, the plant is coming, then insects are coming, flies are coming, then by eating the grass or flies, the bigger animals are coming or they're existing. Take for four-legged animals, they are eating the grass, the plants. So they are living, their generation is going on. Then the human being is coming by evolution. So anyway, ultimately they are coming from the earth. Is it not? Is there any difficulty? So we are coming from the earth or water or air, fire—the five elements. Therefore on the total material elements is our mother. The mother means wherefrom one comes. He's your child because his body has come from your body. Everyone knows it. So every living being is coming out of this earth in different forms. Now if it is established, the mother is the earth and everything that is coming out of mother, they are children, then where is father? Is it not the next inquiry?

Mādhavānanda: Is that not the next inquiry?

Prabhupāda: The mother is there, the children are there. The next inquiry is . . . suppose unknown man comes to him, "Where is your father?" So who is the father? And father says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am father." Finished. Father is God. God has created this earth. He has impregnated the earth with the living entities, and they are coming out. Where is the difficulty? But because they are in ignorance, rascals, it takes long, long time to understand this simple truth. So dull-headed. The children are there and mother is there, and why father . . . there should be no father? What is the answer?

Satsvarūpa: That the mother is just some symbolic idea. There is no . . .

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, mother exists. Mother means who begets, who gives birth. You practically see, grass to the highest form of life, they are coming from earth, living at the cost of the earth. The earth is supplying food, food grains, vegetables. So mother . . . as child is growing by sucking the mother's breast, so we are living at the cost of mother. She is giving us milk, she is giving us everything. That is mother. And śāstra, the earth is considered mother. Ātma-mātā guroḥ patnī brāhmaṇī . . . but they have no knowledge. Mother means who creates my body, who gives me feeding in the beginning, gives me strength. That is mother. How you can understand mother otherwise? So mother is there: earth. Dhenur dhātrī tathā pṛthvī. Pṛthvī is mother. And practically we see. She is giving, the mother earth, is giving birth to so many varieties of children—8,400,000. Then the next inquiry should be: the mother is there, the children are there, then where is the father? That answer is given by Kṛṣṇa: ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4), "I am the father." So where is the difficulty to understand Supreme Lord? But they are so dull-headed that they have no even common sense, and they're passing as philosopher, politician and scientist, big leader, big rascal. This is going on. This is going on. All big, big rascals, they have taken the leadership of the world, and the world is in chaos, chaotic condition; everyone is unhappy, suffering.

Son: My heart has been captivated by person first introduced me to you, George Harrison, and . . .

Prabhupāda: George Harrison? Oh. You came with him?

Son: I first became interested several years back in what you were writing when I . . . especially when I began to see the tie with what he was singing. And now, it's like, the music he's doing right now reflects what I am looking for myself.

Satsvarūpa: He's more following George Harrison than following you.

Son: I see the two of you as not . . .

Prabhupāda: What is George Harrison's? What is the idea? He is . . .

Son: I see both of you standing together. I don't see you apart. That's why I'm here right now.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. This boy is also nice. He comes to me. He offers me. He has given one great big estate in London. He financed my first Kṛṣṇa Book. It required nineteen thousand dollars. So I asked him that, "I have no money. If you can pay, I can print." So he gave immediately. I have admitted. You have seen my Kṛṣṇa Book? Show him.

Mādhavānanda: George Harrison's Introduction?

Son: Oh, yes. I feel that I am personally in debt to him as well as being in debt to you at this point in my life.

Prabhupāda: He's a good boy.

Mādhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda? There are many, many guests coming, Indian people coming today. We have not seen so many coming for a long time, and I think it is because they know you are here. (break)

Prabhupāda: One or two words, that is enough. Godless civilization. Everything, there is proof: there is father, the supreme father. And still they do not believe in God. He says ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā, "I am the seed-giving father." We have got experience that father gives the seed in the womb of the mother and then the child takes body from the mother and comes out. Everyone knows it.


sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ
tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir
ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
(BG 14.4)

"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Hari-śauri: "In this verse it is clearly explained that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is the original father of all living entities. The living entities are combinations of the material nature and the spiritual nature. Such living entities are seen not only on this planet but in every planet, even in the highest, where Brahmā is situated. Everywhere there are living entities; within the earth there are living entities, even within water and within fire. All these appearances are due to the mother . . ."

Prabhupāda: And these rascals say in other planet there is no life. And we have to believe that. This is going on. Why other planet there is no life? Only this planet? These rascal things are going on.

Hari-śauri: "All these appearances are due to the mother, material nature, and Kṛṣṇa's seed-giving process. The purport is that the living entities, being impregnated in the material world, come out and form at the time of creation according to their past deeds."

Prabhupāda: Now if the child is . . . if the father puts the seed in the black wife, the child may come in black body. In the white body, the child may come in white body. So the body is different according to the mother, but the soul is the same. One gets the body according to the body of the mother. But either in the black body or in the white body the soul is the same. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). This simple truth they cannot understand, common sense. In one minute it can be understood. The father . . . mother is there and the child is there. So there must be father. How one can deny?

Son: Do we have any other goal in life than this . . .

Prabhupāda: No, the first thing is that you must know what you are. You should know that the mother is nature and the father is God. I am the child. Then you try to understand the father, and the son, obedience to father. Then you have to learn how to become obedient to the father. Then father will be pleased. And this father is not a poor father. He has created the whole material world. So if you become good son, then naturally you enjoy the property of the father. Everything will be solved simply by understanding the father. And it is natural the son inherits the property of the father. The father is so rich, God, that how much property you can enjoy? What is the use of your endeavoring differently? You have got your father's property. Why you are wasting your time to become happy separately from the father? You just become obedient son of your father—naturally, you will inherit the father's property and be happy. Why you are endeavoring separately, without father? That is your mistake. You want to happy. So happiness is already there. You are such a rich man's son, God. God is the proprietor of everything. So instead of becoming a very dear child to the father, why you are endeavoring separately to become happy? Just become a very dear child to the father. Then everything is there.

Son: How to become dear?

Prabhupāda: You recognize, "God is my father, and I shall be obedient son." That's all. You do what father says, then you become obedient son. The father says: "Always think of Me," man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), you can think of the father always. Where is the difficulty? Just like we're . . . Kṛṣṇa is the father. You see Kṛṣṇa daily. And if you think of Kṛṣṇa, where is the difficulty? If you see within your heart the Deity, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, you don't require to pass M.A., Ph.D. examination. You can do it. And He asks, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. That's all. Simple thing. You come to the temple, offer obeisances. Everyone is offering. Where is the difficulty? What you lost? Where is your loss anything? If you come to the temple and offer your respectful obeisances, "Father, please accept my obeisances," where is the difficulty? And father is so kind: "Oh, My dear son, you have come. Very good. Thank you." Immediately you become recognized: "Oh, you are a good son." Where is the difficulty? You don't require the so-called meditation. Meditation is good if you think of your father. If you meditate on something nonsense, what is the use? This is going on. "Real father don't recognize; we are meditating." Misleading. Real meditation is to think of God. But if you do not know God, what is God, and when we present, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa," you don't accept, then what can be done? Everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, God. But if somebody says: "No, I do not accept," that is his business. If he wants to be misled, let him do. What can we do? But here is God. Thing is very simple. There is no difficulty. But we are so obstinate, lowest of the mankind, we would not accept simple things. We will make it complicated and be frustrated. That is our disease. Unnecessarily we make things complicated. Otherwise, father is there, father's instruction is there, father's favor is there. Everything is there.

Mādhavānanda: The program's starting downstairs now.

Hari-śauri: So I think they're going for the feast now?

Mādhavānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Go. Take prasādam.

Son: I don't understand you, but accept my humble obeisances please, anyway.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Thank you.

Mother: Thank you, Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (guests leave)

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Both of them are good, mother and son. What happened to that machine? (break) . . . say there is no father, and there is no God. A man who is speaking nonsense like this, he is born by a father. And where he gets the idea that without father the child is born?

Hari-śauri: Doctor Frog.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. He's born by a father. So where he gets the idea a child is there without father? "There was chemical, there was this, there was . . ." Chemical is there in the semina. It is a chemical combination. But that chemical combination is not living entity. This body is chemical composition, but why don't you manufacture a living being with these chemicals?

Hari-śauri: Even for a chemical reaction, the chemicals have to be brought together.

Prabhupāda: No, suppose he's able to bring together, put together. But where is the life?

Hari-śauri: But even accepting their idea that things are produced from chemical reactions, who is creating the chemical reactions?

Prabhupāda: Yes, put this chemical together and bring life. Where is the life? We ask, prepare one egg. You can analyze the white part and the yellow part of the eggs, and you find some chemical properties. You bring them together and put in the same layer and everything. Now produce life. Where is that science? Simply talking, "Yes, we shall do. We are trying." Nonsense, trying. What is the use of trying? It is already there. God sent egg through the chicken; it will produce life. So why you are wasting your time in this way? Rather, try to understand the person who has got such a brain that within this chemical composition there is life. You cannot do it, therefore you are inferior. Somebody has done it. Even if you say: "Nature has done it," nature is then powerful. You are not even to the level of nature, what to speak of God. Nature is only one of the energies of God. You cannot understand even the energy. How you will understand the energetic?

Hari-śauri: It's difficult to understand how they could possibly say that there's no intelligence.

Prabhupāda: That is their . . . therefore we say these are all rascals. Therefore generally I say this very strong word, but that is the only word to be used for them: rascals, simply rascals. We have no business with them that we have to flatter. "No, no, sir," you have to be saying, "a great scientist." We say you are rascals. That's all. Straight, blunt. Four annas worth. (break)

Hari-śauri: I saw a lot of Indians walking around this morning even.

Prabhupāda: In our garden?

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they have found a good place, temple.

Hari-śauri: It's a fact. This is the best place in all of Detroit.

Prabhupāda: And if you purchase that land, it will be very beautiful.

Hari-śauri: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: I have advised them to advertise books on the riverside. People will see.

Hari-śauri: Hmm. That's a very good idea.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, on the first day of seeing, I closed the transaction: "Now agreed, I will give you cash, three hundred thousand." He immediately agreed. Verbally, your transaction was finished on my first meeting. Then it was done. It was kept for us by Kṛṣṇa, otherwise, you could not touch this property, it is so valuable property.

Hari-śauri: Seems Kṛṣṇa arranges things very nicely sometimes.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: Kṛṣṇa arranges things very nicely sometimes.

Prabhupāda: Everything is done just like it is temple. The Deity hall.

Hari-śauri: It's a perfect place. Couldn't be better. (end)