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760622 - Conversation A - New Vrindaban, USA

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760622VI-NEW VRINDAVAN - June 22, 1976 - 60.03 Minutes

(Prabhupada Visits Palace and Garden)

Prabhupāda: Thank you.

Kīrtanānanda: In . . . (indistinct) . . . this is your palace.

Prabhupāda: Oh! So many . . . (indistinct)

Kīrtanānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: There is no such building in America. (break) These are our workers?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes, these are your builders here. Bhāgavatānanda Prabhu has done the design.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Very nice.

Kīrtanānanda: And Ātmabhū Prabhu is the chief construction man. Ātmabhū.

Prabhupāda: Oh, all our men.

Kīrtanānanda: All our men.

Prabhupāda: It is very nice.

Kīrtanānanda: Your car will come in here, and you get out and you come right in.

Prabhupāda: And this is the hall?

Kīrtanānanda: This will be a little hall, and that is the worship room, where we can put your vyāsāsana in there, and you can lecture there, or . . . and we can worship you always there.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Kīrtanānanda: But this dome will go up another twelve feet, and four feet from the top there is . . . this lotus flower starts, and this is just one little sample of the kind of casting that will finish it. It will all be done now with smooth plaster. This dome here is being done like this dome, covered with cement. And then where you see these arches are being poured, there will be colored glass windows, stained glass windows.

Prabhupāda: To enter that temple you have to go through here?

Kīrtanānanda: To enter the Deity room you go through the kitchen.

Prabhupāda: No, generally people will go from this side to see the Deity?

Kīrtanānanda: No, they will see just from out here.

Prabhupāda: All these walls closed, there is no window.

Kīrtanānanda: There is no window.

Prabhupāda: Only one window.

Kīrtanānanda: Four windows on the up.

Prabhupāda: Ventilation.

Kīrtanānanda: Ventilation?

Prabhupāda: No ventilation.

Kīrtanānanda: There will be artificial ventilation, fan.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Natural ventilation is prohibited. (laughs)

Kīrtanānanda: No, these windows can open—air that way.

Prabhupāda: Nice veranda. This will be open like this?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: These are rooms?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes, these will be servants' quarters on this side.

Prabhupāda: This will be window?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes. This will be a kitchen.

Prabhupāda: Nice, very nice. And there will be garden here?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes. We are gradually clearing all this land. This was all wooded last year, and we're clearing now.

Prabhupāda: Very nice.

Kīrtanānanda: This is a very good view, all over our land.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Kīrtanānanda: These are your quarters here. This will be your study room, and there will be a wall there. This is your bedroom.

Prabhupāda: These are all marbles? No.

Kīrtanānanda: Yes, this is all marble. The devotees—you see how the marble is all inlaid on the pieces there—they've done that. Then there will be a dressing room and a bath.

Prabhupāda: Dressing room?

Kīrtanānanda: Dressing room and bath.

Prabhupāda: Oh. That side?

Kīrtanānanda: That side.

Prabhupāda: These framework will remain?

Kīrtanānanda: No, it will be covered with plaster.

Prabhupāda: Then it will be taken away? No.

Kīrtanānanda: No, no, it remains.

Prabhupāda: It will continue.

Kīrtanānanda: You have some question about this?

Prabhupāda: This iron is corroding. If it will not hamper.

Kīrtanānanda: It will be covered.

Prabhupāda: Covered, but now it is corroding.

Kīrtanānanda: I see what you are saying.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Kīrtanānanda: There will also be . . . there is another door that goes in that wall there, like this, for access to that side.

Prabhupāda: Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40). Little service in this connection, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can protect one from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya.

Kīrtanānanda: You are so kind to let us do it.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's desire. White sand, wherefrom you secure?

Kīrtanānanda: In Ohio, about sixty miles from here.

Prabhupāda: From the seaside? Sea beach? No.

Kīrtanānanda: No, they call it silica sand. I think it's made from glass.

Prabhupāda: Not glass, it is a kind of stone made powder. Silica sand. They are like sandstone.

Kīrtanānanda: This is just the first cut, not polished. Now, in this dome you see this is a . . .

Prabhupāda: No, while constructing, filling up this, what is called, column, in Bombay they're putting air so that they become solid stone. You have seen in Bombay? Big engineer, they are giving some pumping air so that while the cement is filled up, it becomes solid.

Hari-śauri: Oh, vibrators.

Kīrtanānanda: We do that here. We also do that.

Prabhupāda: You have got some machine?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That makes solidified.

Kīrtanānanda: No voids.

Prabhupāda: Ah, no. Yes. I see, but . . . it appears there is no vacancy. But everything is there, engineering. Engineering process is . . . (indistinct)

Kīrtanānanda: Yes. And we'll take you down to the gray house down here, we'll show you a few more things, how it's being finished. It is just rough here.

Prabhupāda: What are these pipes?

Kīrtanānanda: That's for drainage. For when the water goes out in the sewer, and goes out into the field and drains.

Prabhupāda: You can utilize this water for fertilizing, drain water.

Kīrtanānanda: Well, first of all we have to satisfy the health department. (laughs) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . wood as fuel so that gradually this jungle will be clear. Thank you very much.

Devotees: Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya! Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya! Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya! (devotees offer obeisances) (break)

(in car)

Prabhupāda: This is sand.

Kīrtanānanda: It's sand, yes. It's not from our property, but it's gotten locally. It comes out of the river.

Prabhupāda: Everything you had to purchase?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It will be required.

Kīrtanānanda: For some time, anyway. While we are building so much we need some help. We do not have sufficient manpower. No one is idle.

Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja, you like this?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's very wonderful.

(out of car, entering workroom)

Hari-śauri: We have to take our shoes off?

Kīrtanānanda: It's okay.

Prabhupāda: These are specially made?

Kulādri: Yes, special for you, in New York City, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Kīrtanānanda: And this is the kind of doors and the stained glass work is being done like this. The marble is being worked like this.

Prabhupāda: This is lead?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Like in the church. Who has done this painting?

Kīrtanānanda: That is, I think, from India.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Kīrtanānanda: These pictures are rose quartz. This is rose quartz and twenty-four-carat gold.

Prabhupāda: Gold? (laughter)

Kulādri: Twenty-four carat.

Prabhupāda: In that Detroit house, so much gold. That is also like this. What are these?

Kīrtanānanda: This is a sample of the handles.

Prabhupāda: Plumbing?

Kīrtanānanda: Like those on the doors.

Hari-śauri: Is this gold as well?

Kulādri: Brass.

Prabhupāda: Everything special.

Kīrtanānanda: But we are just śūdras, we don't know how to do anything else.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. What for these marbles?

Kīrtanānanda: That will go on the wall in the bathroom, Italian cremo marble. Here's a picture of how the windows are being done in jāli work. This is being cast out of white cement.

Prabhupāda: Doing here?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes. This is some of the castings they've done. This goes up on the ceiling.

Prabhupāda: Cornice.

Kīrtanānanda: Cornice, yes. Then around the top of the building on the outside, there's a railing with these balusters.

Prabhupāda: This is made of cement?

Kīrtanānanda: No, this one is plaster. This was our first model. But the ones that will be used will be done out of cement. This is very light. Do you have your drawing of the outside?

Prabhupāda: Somebody's staying here?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes, Bhāgavatānanda and a couple of the other construction members stay here. (break) This is the way it will look when it's finished—the balusters and the brackets supporting the sunshade. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . when God is there, within the heart, He'll give you, "Do like this." Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti te (BG 10.10). If one is sincere to serve the Lord, the Lord is situated in everyone's heart, He'll give him, "Do like this." Teṣām evānukampārtham aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ (BG 10.11). It is special favor of God. Even if he's not aware of anything he deviated, He'll give instruction, "Do like this." So there is no scarcity of instruction if one is sincere. Thank you very much. (leaves workshop) (break) . . . I came to your country for preaching this, I had no idea how to do it. (laughs) But things are being model. People are surprised how within a short, so many short years, this world movement has sprung. But I had no idea how to do it. (laughter)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Seeing your palace here is almost like seeing the Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma temple for the first time.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In Ramaṇ-reti there was no temple. Similarly, in this quarter there was no such building. Many people will come to see it.

Kīrtanānanda: They already do, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, I can understand.

Kīrtanānanda: Many people come by every week to see what progress has been made. And everybody who drives by, they stop.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is something wonderful in this quarter.

Kīrtanānanda: You can drive fifty miles away around here, and they'll stop and ask you about how's the palace coming.

Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. Changing New Vrindavan. It is already organized, New Vrindavan? Jaya. (break)

(in car)

Prabhupāda: . . . little further, I think.

Kīrtanānanda: We're trying to clear all this now, too.

Prabhupāda: This is ours?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Kīrtanānanda: It takes a long time to clear it, though.

Prabhupāda: Never mind. Do slowly, that is pleasure.

Kīrtanānanda: Well, we could do it much faster if we didn't try to utilize the wood, but we want to utilize.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unnecessarily you should not cut. When it is necessary for Kṛṣṇa, then you cut. This is also living entity. We cannot kill them without any sufficient reason. (sings) Śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya. This is our property?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Oh. This side also.

Kīrtanānanda: This side. Goes down to that road there.

Prabhupāda: All this land can be utilized, planting. There is some graveyard?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes. You want to ride any further?

Prabhupāda: No. Harer nāma harer nāma harer (CC Adi 17.21). (break)

Kīrtanānanda: . . . can be seen in one direction at least a couple of miles away, several, no, three directions. This is the capital that will go in the courtyard here in the main temple . . . the assembly area. On those columns, this will go at the top.

Prabhupāda: Very nice. Thank you. This is plastic?

Kīrtanānanda: This is what they make the mold from. This one is in plaster. Now they will cast more. Below that they'll be faced with marble.

Prabhupāda: They can do Deity also, they can.

Kīrtanānanda: Yes, after they've done with your palace they're going to start on some Deities. I think they would like permission to first start with your deity.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Kulaśekhara: (shouting as they pass by) Jaya Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Kulaśekhara is here?

Kīrtanānanda: Kulaśekhara, yes, he is editing Brijabasi Spirit now. We will put a wall around, and then all nice gardens inside.

Prabhupāda: Cement wall or wooden?

Kīrtanānanda: No, a combination of masonry and fancy iron so that people can see through.

Prabhupāda: Reinforced.

Kīrtanānanda: Yes, but also so they can see through at certain points.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. With sunshine this wood becomes very, very beautiful. Tapo-vana. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . in this house. Who is staying now?

Kīrtanānanda: Usually there are devotees that stay there. Right now we are not having anybody stay there. Lord Jagannātha stays there.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Here, in this house? No.

Kīrtanānanda: What is that? No, Jagannātha stays in that house. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . are grown here or brought from somewhere else?

Kīrtanānanda: This was brought from somewhere else because there was nothing here in which to grow it. We can grow it . . . (indistinct) . . . that's why it's so wet right now, very wet. (break)

Prabhupāda: They will do it like this, now it is very nice.

Kīrtanānanda: Very beautiful.

Prabhupāda: That one girl is taking care, she's doing very nice. We can sit down here?

Kīrtanānanda: Kulādri, find some more things. Come up this side. As soon as you sit down, everything looks complete.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? (laughs) Where is Pradyumna Mahārāja?

Kīrtanānanda: He's just inside the house. You'd like him to come out?

Prabhupāda: No. Pālikā, you came before here?

Pālikā: Six years ago. There was just that one small, original farm.

Prabhupāda: Now it is a big property. And when the palace will be ready, many people will . . . you simply advertise, "Come and see palaces in New Vrindavan." It will be a combination of Western and Eastern culture, for the profit of the whole human society. So Vṛndāvana-candra will come here? No. Vṛndāvana-candra Deity?

Kīrtanānanda: No.

Prabhupāda: His palace will be different.

Kīrtanānanda: His palace will be where the building is now. We're planning to move Him into the new building next to the present temple, the four-story building. He will occupy the fourth floor for now. Then we will take down that old building and put up a nice big temple.

Prabhupāda: So why you dismantle, construct another?

Kīrtanānanda: The building is not in such good condition.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. As soon as the new temple is, move it. Or you want to dismantle it?

Kīrtanānanda: The site is good.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, site is good.

Kīrtanānanda: It will make a nice complex in relationship with the other buildings.

Prabhupāda: That will . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare.

Kīrtanānanda: We are about to install your mūrti in that temple.

Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23). The Vedic secret is that parā bhaktir, yasya deve, unto the Lord, similarly, to the guru, they, to them, the whole thing becomes revealed automatically. Vedic knowledge is grasped not by erudite scholarship. Mundane scholarship has nothing to do with. The secret is, yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau. My Guru Mahārāja wanted that some books should be published. So I tried my best, and he's giving success more than expectation. In the history nobody has sold religion, philosophical books, in such large quantity.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Or quality.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is all Guru Mahārāja's blessings. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is stressing on this point, guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete kariyā aikya, āra nā koriha mane āśā. Simply execute that. Kṛṣṇa bhakti . . . kṛṣṇa prāpti haya yāhā haite. You'll get Kṛṣṇa.

(long pause) (break)

Prabhupāda: Govinda, Gopīnātha, Madana Mohana, Śyāmasundara, Rādhā-Dāmodara, Gokulānanda and . . .? Rādhā-Ramaṇa. These seven temples, Gauḍīya-Vaiṣṇava. Then other Vaiṣṇavas came, Raṅganātha, Rāmānuja. (break) . . . devotees from India, we import to develop these quarters, will government allow?

Kīrtanānanda: I don't think there's as much problem from our government as from the Indian government. Our problem so far has been Indian government.

Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? If somebody wants to go, migrate in America, what Indian government will do?

Kīrtanānanda: They won't give them passport.

Prabhupāda: No, no, passport means coming back. But if he's going to domicile, Indian government cannot check. If I want to go somewhere and live there . . .

Kīrtanānanda: You have to have passport. As far as I know.

Prabhupāda: But passport means if he wants to return.

Kīrtanānanda: No, in other words, in order to get visa from US, you have to present your passport.

Prabhupāda: Well there are different kinds of visa. Immigration visa. Suppose if anyone wants to migrate in America, our Society here, we give guarantee. I think there will be no . . .

Kīrtanānanda: No difficulty. We can try.

Prabhupāda: Our Society is here, and we give this man our guarantee for maintenance. So what is the objection? By law there is no objection. And if the Immigration Department allows, "Yes, you can come and live," then where will be . . .? Immigration means that here government should be satisfied that this man is coming, he will have no difficulty; government gives permit.

Kīrtanānanda: Should be like that, anyway.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . similarly, you can bring some men from India.

Kīrtanānanda: We would like that.

Prabhupāda: And they also will be very pleased. In India is now so congested. If they get good . . . especially many East Bengalis who migrate in West Bengal for the troublesome conditions there, they'll be very happy here. You can write to Gopāla to inquire that we require here some Indians to come to help us.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mistris for construction?

Prabhupāda: Mistri or anyone, to develop this Kṛṣṇa culture, so the Society will give guarantee. Why not take permission? And they may not come back. They may reside.

Kīrtanānanda: I don't understand. That seems to be the government's . . . the Indian government's objection was that they wouldn't come back.

Prabhupāda: So they are disturbed with overpopulation.

Kīrtanānanda: It doesn't make any sense. But their objection was that they might not come back.

Prabhupāda: But that is good for you, because you are harassed by overpopulation. You cannot feed them even. Why you object? Let them go and live somewhere else peacefully. Just like the Europeans came here. Originally, in America, Europeans came. Because it was overcongested and they got . . . Columbus found this land, enough, and they migrated. So still there is so much land. The Indians are hard workers; they will develop very nicely. Just like this quarter. If Indians would be allowed, they'll come and make it very nice. In South America they have done. Many Indian cultivators, they have come in remote villages. This cooperation should be. Everything belongs to God. Why a class or community should be congested? Just like China, Japan, India, so much congested. What is this nonsense United Nation doing? What they have done for the last thirty years? No liberal-minded. Let them propose that wherever there is enough land and wherever there is overpopulation, let them go, and the government give them simply land and let them work and be happy. Why not arrange, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, arrange between these two, United Nation? Why a section of people is rotting in a place and devising some means how to fight with the others and get land? Why? There is no meaning. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). This is our philosophy: Everything belongs to God, and everyone is a son of God; therefore the son of God has the right. Why they should be thrown together and live compulsorily in that rotten place, that in China they are living on the sea? You know that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Taiwan.

Kīrtanānanda: Thailand, yes.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. They have no place to live on the land.

Kīrtanānanda: They build boats and live in the water.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Especially if people are coming for agriculture.

Prabhupāda: Agriculture is the noblest profession. Give him some land, he cuts the wood, makes cottages. The land is clear, now till it, keep cows and grow food grains.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Doesn't put any local men out of work, also.

Prabhupāda: Simple thing. And then live comfortably, eat comfortably, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. "Comfortably" does not mean satisfaction of the senses. Comfortably means we require primary necessities: to eat something, to sleep somewhere or have some sex—this is also bodily need—and to defend, that's all. These are the primary necessities. That can be arranged anywhere. God has given all facilities. Grow your own food, eat, and live anywhere. Just this place was rough like that, now it is handled nicely, it is very attractive. Bikale cukale ghar, sajale gochale bor. (If you clean a bad place it will become a home, and if you decorate a dirty person he will become a groom.) Any damn place, you cleanse it, it becomes home. And any nasty man, you decorate him, he becomes a bridegroom. (laughs)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Becomes a . . .?

Hari-śauri: Bridegroom.

Prabhupāda: Bikale cukale ghar, sajale gochale bor. (If you clean a bad place it will become a home, and if you decorate a dirty person he will become a groom.) (japa) Let Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement give this sense to these rascals. They do not know how to adjust things. They simply plan their United Nation, but they do not know what is that plan. Yes. United Nation should be . . . first of all, why nation? Why manufacture nation and create trouble and again united? Nation—this word is not there in the Vedic language. There's no conception of nation. There is conception of varṇāśrama, everywhere. Not for any particular nation or any particular country, but everyone, according to quality—first-class men, second-class men, third-class men. That is there everywhere. Everywhere you go, you find some people first-class intelligent, some people less than him, some people less than him, up to fourth class, that's all. And then fifth class. So everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Now you try to implement. Perfect human life. Let any sociologist, politician come forward. We shall convince them that this is the only way. Why you are wasting time and barking dogs in the United Nation for the last forty years and doing nothing? What I have said, barking dogs? You have read it? I accused them as barking dogs . . .

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Melbourne.

Prabhupāda: . . . Melbourne, and they published in the paper. Actually, this is fact.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Barking for the last thirty years.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody has criticized them. They have taken it seriously; otherwise, why they have published? Yes, that's right. What they have done except barking? "I am American," "I am Russian," "I am this," "I am that," that's all. If you keep them dogs and hogs and, nicely dressed, they go to United Nation and talk of unity, is it possible? Can the dogs and hogs can unite? Common sense. You bring all the dogs of this neighborhood and ask them, "Don't bark now. Live peacefully," (laughter) will they be able? (laughs) The United Nation is like that. They're kept as dogs, and they're advised, "Now keep peacefully." Is it possible? They have no common sense even. First of all, let them become human beings. Conference is going on, big conference, and our Jawaharlal Nehru has imitated, that in the conference there are different languages, different . . . but if somebody is speaking in any language you'll hear it in your own language. Remember? In New Delhi he has done that. This rascal thought, "Now I am finished, I have done my duty." All rascals. (japa) Thus our definition, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's either in these four groups, bās, final. You just try to prove it. Hmm? Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja? You have any doubt about it?

Kīrtanānanda: No.

Prabhupāda: Anyone?

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ
prapadyante narādhamāḥ
āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ
(BG 7.15)

Do it very nicely. Push Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement vigorously. (japa) If you keep the people in ignorance like dogs and hogs, what is the value of advancement of knowledge? So many universities? (japa) But discuss this point, our charge; explain to them, and let someone defend them, someone talking for, and let him decide.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ?

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Whether this is fact. It is fact, but even if we do not accept it, what is the wrong there, find out. We don't find any wrong, everything. Because Kṛṣṇa said it, then it's all right. Because they will say it is too sectarian, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's the most miscreant, sinful and ass and lowest of the mankind—he has lost his all knowledge. This is our accusation. Now defend. Any gentleman will protest, that "I am such a respectable gentleman, and because I do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then I'll fall among these groups? What is this?" They will say. Now you'll have to prove that, "You are not a gentleman."

Kīrtanānanda: Gentleman means one who is cultured. So culture is not of the body but of knowledge.

Prabhupāda: But what do you mean by culture? First of all, the question will be, "What do you mean by culture?"

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's some idea of progress involved, advancement of life. Otherwise, there's no need for any kind of progress. One remains as a child.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that? Culture means advancement in knowledge. We say: "You're a gentleman of culture." That means he's advanced in knowledge. So what is the advancement of knowledge, next question will be.

Rakṣaṇa: Kṛṣṇa told Arjuna that that was to know that he was factually not his body.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is advancement of knowledge. Otherwise, what is the difference between this bird and the human being? He's also dancing very jolly, but he has no knowledge that he's not this body. So if the human being also remains falsely jolly, without any knowledge of his existence, then what is the difference between the birds, dogs and human beings? Why we say low grade, animals? He's living in his own way. He has got all the facilities of eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Just you have all the same things. Where is the difference between you and him? Why you say advanced in knowledge?

Rakṣaṇa: Nowadays they say that they're advanced in knowledge even without any sophistication at all, while Arjuna, when he was giving his arguments to Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: No, don't bring Arjuna now. Just speak on commonsense platform. As soon as we bring Arjuna, they'll think it is sectarian. We are talking on human common sense. What is advancement of knowledge?

Devotee: They say if it's advancement of knowledge, if they are advanced, why do they have to die? The animals are dying, and they're accepting that, and the human beings also die. But why does he have to die if he's advanced in knowledge?

Rakṣaṇa: Even if you are advanced in knowledge, you still have to die.

Kīrtanānanda: Advancement of knowledge is to distinguish between what is temporary and what is eternal.

Prabhupāda: Discuss amongst yourselves.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They may say, though, that even the human beings, the necessities are there—eating, sleeping, mating and defending.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is doing. What is your advancement of knowledge? The bird is chirping, dancing, they're living, they are sleeping, they have got sex. So everyone is doing. What is your advancement of knowledge?

Kīrtanānanda: We carry out these activities in relationship with the eternal soul. So that by performing the activities one is gaining knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Provided you have got the knowledge of the soul, then you are advanced than the birds and beasts. Otherwise, where is the advancement? Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The human being, they can inquire about the spirit soul. These birds, beasts, they cannot.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Then we find so many purported religious people, just like Christians, they may say: "Well, I believe in the soul," but nonetheless they are going on with their materialistic civilization.

Prabhupāda: That means you do not know seriously what is soul. You have simply an idea, but you do not know in detail. Just like they say, the Christians, "God is great." But they do not know who is God and what is the meaning of greatness. That they do not know. They accept this theoretically or religious sentimentally, "God is great." Just like your state says: "In God We Trust." As soon as I inquire what kind of trust and to whom, there is no reply. That means they do not know what is God, what is trust. As a matter of slogan they write, that's all—even the state heads, and what to speak of the nonsense ordinary citizens. Seriously taking, it is very important question. They should have replied. But they do not know how to reply.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: With all of the situations that take place in the material world, they may not be able to see how God is actually active in the material world, that whether there's a war or whether . . .

Prabhupāda: Well, that you should . . . why you should remain in ignorance how God is acting? If you are serious about God, that you must know. Just like a statesman, he knows how government is acting. Ordinary man, he knows government is acting, but he does not know how government is acting. But advanced in knowledge, they know what is the constitution, how the government is acting. That is the difference. Therefore lawyer is appointed when there is some trouble. He can find out where is the defect. That is advancement of . . . (break) (end)