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760624 - Conversation B - New Vrindaban, USA

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



760624BI-NEW VRINDAVAN - June 24, 1976 - 18.37 Minutes


(Prabhupada Inspects New BTG)



Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (reading Prabhupāda's comments from The Science of Self-Realization) " . . .God's property from being occupied by God's sons. America and other nations in the United Nations should agree that wherever there is enough land it may be utilized by the human society for producing food. The government can say, 'All right, you are overpopulated. Your people can come here. We will give them land, and they can produce food.' We would see a wonderful result. But will they do that? No. And what is their philosophy? Roguism. 'I will take the land by force, and then I won't allow others to come here.'

Reporter: One American motto is 'One nation under God.'

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There should be one nation under God, and one world government under God as well. Everything belongs to God, and we are all His sons. That philosophy is wanted."

Kīrtanānanda: Who was this reporter?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jagannātha-suta. This was in Māyāpur. (continues reading) "But in America people are very much afraid of the central government"—this is the reporter—"because they think that wherever there is a strong government there will always be tyranny."

Prabhupāda: If the leaders are properly trained, there cannot be tyranny.

Reporter: But one of the premises of the American system of government is that if a leader has too much power, he will inevitably become corrupt.

Prabhupāda: You have to train him in such a way that he cannot become corrupt.

Reporter: What is that training process?

Prabhupāda: That training is the varṇāśrama-dharma, a system of dividing society into four social and four spiritual orders according to people's natural qualities. Divide the society according to quality and train people in the principle that everything belongs to God and should be used in the service of God. Then there really can be one nation under God.

Reporter: But if society is divided into different groups, won't there be envy?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Just as in my body there are different parts that work together, so the society can have different parts working for the same goal. My hand is different from my leg, but when I tell the hand, 'Bring a glass of water,' the leg will help. The leg is required and the hand is required.

Reporter: But in the Western world we have a working class and a capitalist class, and there is always warfare going on between the two.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the capitalist class is required, and the working class is also required.

Reporter: But they are fighting.

Prabhupāda: Because they are not trained up, they have no common cause. The hand and the leg work differently, but the common cause is to maintain the body. So if you find out the common cause for both the capitalists and the workers, then there will be no fighting. But if you do not know the common cause, then there will always be fighting.

Reporter: Revolution?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter: Then the most important thing is to find the common cause that people can unite on.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness society. You come to consult me about every activity because I can give you the common cause. Otherwise there will be fighting. The government should be very expert to know the aim of life, the common cause, and they should train the people to work for the common cause. Then they will be happy and peaceful. But if people simply elect rascals like Nixon, they will never find a common cause. Any rascal can secure votes by some arrangement, and then he becomes the head of the government. The candidates are bribing. They are cheating. They are making propaganda to win votes. Somehow or other they get votes and capture the prime posts. This system is bad.

Reporter: So if we don't choose our leaders by popular election, how will society be governed?

Prabhupāda: You require brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas and śūdras. Just as when you want to construct a building you require engineers; you don't want sweepers. Isn't that so? What will the sweeper do? No. There must be engineers. So if you follow the division of varṇāśrama, only kṣatriyas are allowed to govern. And for the legislative assembly, the senators, only qualified brāhmaṇas. Now the butcher is in the legislative assembly. What does he know about making laws? He is a butcher. But by winning votes he becomes a senator. At the present moment, by the principle of vox populi, a butcher goes to the legislature. So everything depends on training. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness society we are actually doing that. But in the case of politics they forget it. There cannot be just one class. That is foolishness, because we have to engage different classes of men in different activities. If we do not know the art then we will fail, because unless there is a division of work there will be havoc. We have discussed all the responsibilities of the king in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The different classes in society should cooperate exactly as the different parts of the body do. Although each part is meant for a different purpose, they all work for one cause, to maintain the body properly.

Reporter: What is the actual duty of the government?

Prabhupāda: To understand what God wants and to see that society works towards that aim . . ."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's the caption they put up here also, "The actual duty of government is to understand what God wants and to see that society works towards that aim."

Prabhupāda: . . .then people will be happy. But if the people work in the wrong direction, how can they be happy? The government's duty is to see that they are working in the right direction. The right direction is to know God and to act according to His instruction. But if the leaders themselves do not believe in the supremacy of God, and if they do not know what God wants to do or what He wants us to do, then how can there be good government? The leaders are misled, and they are misleading others. That is the chaotic condition in the world today.

Reporter: In the United States there has traditionally been the separation of Church and state.

Prabhupāda: I am not talking about the Church. Church or no Church, that is not the point. The main thing is that the leaders have to accept that there is a supreme controller. How can they deny it? Everything in nature is going on under the Supreme Lord's control. The leaders cannot control nature, so why don't they accept a supreme controller? That is the defect in society. In every respect the leaders are feeling that there must be a supreme controller, and yet they are still denying Him.

Reporter: But suppose the government is atheistic?

Prabhupāda: Then there cannot be good government. The Americans say they trust in God, but without the science of God, that trust is simply fictitious. First take the science of God very seriously; then put your trust in Him. They do not know what God is, but we do. We actually trust in God. They are manufacturing their own way of governing, and that is their defect. They will never be successful. They are imperfect, and if they go on manufacturing their own ways and means they will remain imperfect. There will always be revolutions, one after another. There will be no peace.

Reporter: Who determines the regulative principles of religion that people should follow?

Prabhupāda: God. God is perfect. He does that. According to the Vedic version, God is the leader of all living entities. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). We are different from Him because He is all-perfect and we are not. We are very small. We have the qualities of God, but in very small quantity. Therefore we have only a little knowledge, that's all. With a little knowledge you can manufacture a 747 airplane, but you cannot manufacture a mosquito."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Is it possible?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (continues reading) "God has created the mosquito's body, which is also an airplane. That is the difference between God and us. We have knowledge, but it is not as perfect as God's. So the leaders of the government have to consult God; then they will rule perfectly."

On this side it says "Leaders of government have to consult God, then they will rule perfectly."

Reporter: Has God also devised the most perfect government?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. The kṣatriyas ruled the government in Vedic times. When there was a war, the king was the first to fight. Just like your George Washington. He fought when there was a war. But what kind of president is ruling now? When there is a war he sits very securely and telephones orders. He's not fit to be president. When there is war the president should be the first to come forward and lead the battle.

Reporter: But if man is small and imperfect, how can he execute God's perfect orders for a perfect government?

Prabhupāda: Although you may be imperfect, because you are carrying out my order, you become perfect. You have accepted me as your leader, and I accept God as my leader. In this way society can be governed perfectly.

Reporter: So good government means first of all to accept the Supreme Being as the real ruler of the government.

Prabhupāda: You cannot directly accept the Supreme Being. You must accept the servants of the Supreme Being, the brāhmaṇas or Vaiṣṇavas, devotees of the Lord, as your guides. The government men are the kṣatriyas, the second class. The kṣatriyas should take advice from the brāhmaṇas or Vaiṣṇavas and make laws accordingly. The vaiśyas should carry out the kṣatriyas' orders in practice, and the śūdras should work under these three orders, then society will be perfect. "

The end of the article.

Prabhupāda: You like this?

Kīrtanānanda: Very nice.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes.

Hari-śauri: Right to the point.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They can make a big plane, but they can't make a mosquito. It's so thought-provoking. Here's that article by Dharmādhyakṣa that you liked.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That article about . . . he wrote from Vancouver. It was in that small pamphlet that they sent to Los Angeles: "Simple Living and High Thinking." It had a picture of a forest, a stream in the background, and your picture in a little square was superimposed over it.

Hari-śauri: We got it in Hawaii.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Was in Hawaii?

Hari-śauri: Yes. It was for that Habitat conference.

Prabhupāda: So we are not politicians, but we give some idea. Is it not good?

Kīrtanānanda: We have political philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is our movement: Take instruction of God, follow it, and you'll be happy. What is this?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is the end of that article, then the magazine goes on.

Prabhupāda: They have not replied even. (break) (reading article titles) "Simple Living, High Thinking." "Then and Now: the Right to Distribute the American Dream." Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So instead of giving books to the members, they can read the books in the magazine. One magazine should be given free always to the members.

Kīrtanānanda: Life Members.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not books. "ISKCON—Ten Years of Spreading Kṛṣṇa Consciousness."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Won't it help, though, to have the books in the members' homes, that perhaps their generations may read them?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Won't it help to have your books in their homes, though? That maybe future generations will, you know, be benefited, they'll read your books?

Prabhupāda: Let the parent, present generation, read first of all. (laughs) Then talk of future generations.

Hari-śauri: At least they're still inclined to read the Bhagavad-gītā. So if they have yours, then they can be correct, they can correct their misunderstandings.

Prabhupāda: What is this article? Ah. "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness—The Spirit of '76." "Curing the Crimes of a Lifetime," Vibhavatī. "Curing the Crimes"—read it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (reads) "Adapted from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, translation and commentary by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda." In the middle there is a picture of Arjuna piercing the target, and Draupadī being harassed. "With the recent disgrace of an American president still fresh in our minds, it is interesting to read of a similar case in ancient times. Five thousand years ago a blind king named Dhṛtarāṣṭra dishonored his high post and caused the death of millions. This story is of special importance even today, because he found an antidote to the crimes of a lifetime and in his old age became self-realized.

"King Dhṛtarāṣṭra was the acting monarch of Hastināpura, the capital of the Vedic kingdom of Bhārata, which five thousand years ago, according to the Vedic literature, spread over most of the planet. Hastināpura was on the banks of the Yamunā River at the present-day site . . . at the site of present-day Delhi. As its name indicates—hasti means elephant—it was a city full of opulently decorated elephants. Noble men rode elaborate chariots past marble palaces inlaid with glittering jewels. The sweet smell of incense drifted out of lattice windows. Trees bearing fruits and flowers lined the wide streets, which were sprinkled with scented water. There was no hint of poverty or distress. Hastināpura was the crown jewel of the abundant Vedic civilization. From the beginning, Dhṛtarāṣṭra's position as king was never legal, for he was blind, and Vedic law ruled that a blind man cannot be king. Thus the throne went to his younger brother Pāṇḍu. But when Pāṇḍu died in his young manhood, Dhṛtarāṣṭra began ruling on behalf of Pāṇḍu's five sons, who were still children.

"In an age of great and honorable kings, Dhṛtarāṣṭra was an exception. Swayed by his eldest son Duryodhana's ruthless lust for power, Dhṛtarāṣṭra began to abuse the guardianship of the Pāṇḍavas by closing his already blind eyes to the planned and purposeful efforts of Duryodhana to destroy the boys. As the descendant of a great royal dynasty, Dhṛtarāṣṭra had the lineage and rearing of a proper monarch, but it seemed that he was as blind spiritually as he was physically. Although he admired and even loved the five fatherless princes, he began to contemplate taking away their kingdom, and even their lives."

Prabhupāda: At seven o'clock we shall go there?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is time now?

Hari-śauri: Five past six.

Kīrtanānanda: Six. Six o'clock. Five past six.

Prabhupāda: Oh. All right. (exits room) (end).