761014 - Morning Walk - Chandigarh
Prabhupāda: That is special advantage of this age. People are very much fallen from spiritual standard, and to fall down from the spiritual standard means to spoil the humanity. There is no education on this point. That is Vedic culture. Most of them, they do not believe that there is soul, spirit soul, and human life is meant for understanding it and make progress on that platform. Most of them, they do not know. There is no education, I think. Everyone reads Bhagavad-gītā, mostly, but they do not understand the first lesson, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Nobody understands. What is your understanding about this transmigration of the soul?
Indian man (1): We consider that man gets life after death according to his karma.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Do you believe on this?
Indian man (1): We have this belief.
Prabhupāda: Then what is the preparation? If we believe that we have to get another life after death, then what preparation we have made?
Indian man (1): Preparation? We . . . the real truth is we don't know.
Prabhupāda: That is I am saying.
Indian man (1): This is what we would like to know from . . . the learned people.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is our duty, provided you want to learn it. But practically they are not interested. That is the pity of the situation. They . . . nature's law is there, but they do not care for the nature's law. They are so irresponsible.
- prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
- guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
- kartāham iti manyate
- (BG 3.27)
Everything is being done by nature's law, and we are strictly under nature's law. Still, we are thinking independent.
Indian man (1): Nature's laws are inexorable.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We cannot surpass. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). This nature's law is so strict, you cannot disobey.
Indian man (1): We can't bend it. It is un . . . inevitable, inexorable.
Prabhupāda: Yes, inevitable. Yes, yes, inexorable.
Indian man (1): And nobody can interfere?
Indian man (1): God alone.
Prabhupāda: God can do anything. He is all-powerful. That is only . . .
Indian man (1): But does He interfere . . . does He intervene in our actions?
Indian man (1): I mean, God, does He . . .
Prabhupāda: (greets someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. God interferes if you are a devotee. Otherwise, you have to undergo the laws of nature. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām (BS 5.54). Karma, according to your karma, you are conducted by the laws of nature. Just like if you touch fire, the laws of nature is: it will burn. Even a child touches the fire, there is no excuse. The laws of nature will not excuse a child, that "This child does not know it has touched the fire. Let it not be burned." No. Ignorance is no excuse. You cannot surpass or avoid laws of nature. It is not possible. If you can eat one chāta, and if you eat little more, then there will be trouble.
Indian man (1): Then what about miracles performed by so many people?
Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. Nobody can play anything. Magician also can make.
Indian man (1): Interfere with the laws of nature.
Prabhupāda: Nobody can. It is all foolishness, all rascaldom. They are all rascals, and who understands miracle, they are also rascals. Laws of nature cannot be changed.
Indian man (1): There may be several laws which we don't know.
Prabhupāda: There are many laws. What do you know? You do not know anything. (chuckles)
Indian man (1): We do not know. Then I say those miracles may be possible according to those laws that we don't know.
Prabhupāda: There is no miracle. If you touch fire, it will burn, that's all.
Indian man (2): Swāmījī, is bhakti-mārga enough to have liberation?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhakti-mārga . . . first of all, you must know what is liberation. What do you mean by liberation?
Indian man (2): Jīvan-mukta.
Prabhupāda: No, explain.
Indian man (2): When feeling one with the consciousness, world consciousness, universal soul.
Prabhupāda: Universal soul is spirit, and you are also spirit. That sense, you are one. But universal soul is different from you. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that there are two souls within the body. One soul is the individual soul, and the other soul is the Supersoul. That Supersoul is universal soul, and the individual soul, you are individual soul. As soul, the quality is the same, but you are individual soul, and Lord is universal soul. There, in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is stated clearly, kṣetra-kṣetrajña. Kṣetrajña is the soul; kṣetra is this body. So kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3): "I am also kṣetrajña, soul, but sarva-kṣetreṣu. You individual soul, you know the pleasure, pains, of your body, but you do not know what are the pleasure and pains of my body." Do you know?
Indian man (2): No, sir.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you are individual. You know the pleasure and pains of your body. I know the pleasure and pains of my body. But there is another soul; that is Supersoul. Sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. He knows your pleasure, pains; He knows my pleasure and pains; He knows everyone's pleasure and pains. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). Therefore, as soul they are one in quality, but in consciousness they're different. He knows everyone's pleasure and pains; I know my pleasure and pain.
Indian man (2): My humble prayer was that by doing japa, by doing meditation, by doing bhakti-mārga, need we go to jñāna-mārga also, or bhakti-mārga is enough by itself? That was my humble supplication.
Prabhupāda: Bhakti-mārga is enough. Bhakti-mārga means it includes everything. Without jñāna, there is no bhakti. The jñāna is called brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20); that is real jñāna. If you . . . (greets someone) Aiye. If you understand your position, then it is jñāna. If you do not understand your position, then where is jñāna? Do you follow? Therefore Bhagavān says, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). When . . . so long you are ajñāna, in ignorance, you cannot be happy. You cannot be happy. But when you are in jñāna, then you'll be happy. That is the symptom of becoming jñānī. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Ātmā becomes very happy. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. He has no more any lamentation and hankering. There are two things in this material world: we are hankering after something which we do not possess, and we are lamenting for something which we possessed and we have lost. This is the disease, material disease. So when one comes to the platform of jñāna, then he has no more such disease, hankering and lamenting. Here the whole world is going on, lamenting and hankering. So brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20) means na śocati na kāṅkṣati and samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. And here, so long we are on the material platform, we are not samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. We are thinking, "You are different from me; I am different from you. My interest is first." You are thinking your interest is first and so on, so on. So not samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. But when you become actually jñānī, brahma-bhūtaḥ, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. When you are in distress, na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, prasannātmā, then bhakti begins. Mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). So bhakti is not so easy thing.
Indian man (1): Bhakti depends on jñāna. It cannot be immediately.
Prabhupāda: Bhakti means when one understands his real position, means all misunderstanding gone.
Indian man (3): Ajñāna.
Indian man (4): When there is that last śloka in the Eighteenth adhyāya, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66).
Prabhupāda: How you can do unless you understand your position? When you understand your position that, "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa," then you can do that. If I say immediately, "Mr. Such-and-such, you give up everything. You become . . . surrender unto me." Will you do? No, you'll not do. But when you understand your position—"Yes, it is my duty"—then you'll do it.
Indian man (4): No, brahma-bhūta is . . .
Prabhupāda: Brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20) means first of all you understand your identity. You are now identifying yourself as Indian, or as brāhmaṇa, or as kṣatriya, or white, or black, and so many things.
Indian man (4): My first identification is my own body.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is ajñāna. So long you are identifying with the body, you are no better than the animal. So we are doing that. We are fighting: "I am Indian. You are Englishman. You are this. You are that. You are . . ." Simply we are fighting, like cats and dogs, they fight. So that is ajñāna. How you can be prasannātmā? So when one becomes actually situated in spiritual life, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54), that is the . . . in this way, when you make further progress, when you actually understand that you are eternal servant of God, then you surrender. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). This situation takes many, many births to cultivate. And when he actually understands, jñānavān—not fools, rascals—then māṁ prapadyate, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That mahātmā is very rare to be found. So bhakti is not so easy. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. It is not so easy. It takes many, many births to come to the understanding that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). Sa mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty ananya manasaḥ (BG 9.13). This is mahātmā.
Indian man (4): Does the soul which passes from body to body, does it or he experience the pains and pleasures of my body?
Prabhupāda: Certainly. You just strike one dog—"Ka! Ka! Ka!" Why? Does not feel pain? And Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has proved even the trees, they feel pains and pleasure.
Indian man (4): It means the soul which . . .
Prabhupāda: It is the stage. It is stage. Just like the tree. If you cut, it does not feel so much pains and pleasure as a human being. It is the development of consciousness. So in human form of body the consciousness is developed. Therefore he can understand what is his position. And therefore for human being there are śāstras—the Vedas, the Purāṇas—to understand his position. The tree cannot take advantage of the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. A cat cannot take advantage.
Indian man (4): Even an animal cannot.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So if we do not take advantage of the opportunity of understanding my identification, then we are committing suicide, jumping like cats and dogs, that's all. Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). Such persons have been described as go-kharaḥ. Go means cows, and khara means ass.
Indian man (3): Khara means . . .?
Prabhupāda: Ass. I think this khara is word is used by Urdu. Phir vamusthi vrsti kharaḥ(?). (short discussion in Urdu or Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13), one who identifies his body.
Indian man (5): Mūḍha, you explained last night.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is going on. That's it, that we should take advantage of this human form of life, and we must know what is our position, why we are in this material world. I am this body or so . . . so many things. This is called brahma-jijñāsā. But nobody is interested. That is the effect of bad education. And especially in the Western countries, they do not believe in the next birth. They do not believe, although it is very clearly pointed out by Kṛṣṇa, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13): "The body is changing. From baby body is coming, becoming a boy; a boy is becoming a young man; young man is becoming middle-aged man, and the middle-aged man is becoming old man." The body is changing every moment, and still, they do not believe. Every one of us, we know that we had a childhood body, a boy's body. Where is that body? That body is gone. I am existing, but the body is not existing. Therefore I have changed body. This simple word, they do not understand. Therefore they are called mūḍha. Kṛṣṇa is pointing out, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Similarly, there is after this, after so-called death, the soul changes to another body, and He still further clearly says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20): "After this destruction of this body, the person is not killed. He's not dead." Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. These things are there, but nobody understands. And they're very good scholar, big, big student of Bhagavad-gītā. But these things they do not understand. And they're writing very, very big, big comments.
Indian man (4): In theory everybody believes it, that na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20).
Prabhupāda: No. What is that nonsense theory? We must know it actually. What is the use of theory? Theory is no good. You must know factually. That is knowledge. Theory is not knowledge. Anyone can put forward some nonsense theory. That is not knowledge. Knowledge means factual. That is . . . so we have to take knowledge . . .
Indian man (4): How to attain that knowledge then?
Prabhupāda: That also, Kṛṣṇa is explaining. Why don't you take it? The knowledge is there, but you refuse to accept. So what is fault? Whose fault it is?
Indian man (4): How should I persuade myself that that . . .?
Prabhupāda: No, if you don't persuade, nobody can induce you to persuade. If you are obstinate, who can persuade you?
Indian man (4): Well, the devil persists. I try to believe he persists.
Prabhupāda: But you must agree. Therefore it is advised, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). First of all, you have to surrender. But if you don't surrender, how you'll get knowledge? If you think you are very big man, then how you get knowledge?
Indian man (4): No, we don't think that we are big men.
Prabhupāda: No, no, everyone thinks that, not you. I don't say particular. Everyone thinks, "I know everything."
Indian man (4): No, no. We think that we are ignorant, petty creatures. Correct. And we know . . .
Prabhupāda: But if you think so, that you are ignorant petty creatures, then you take knowledge from the authority. Why don't you take it? What is the meaning that you think that you are ignorant petty creature, at the same time, when the most learned person is giving you knowledge, Kṛṣṇa, you don't take it? What kind of . . .?
Indian man (4): But there are so many authorities presented to me. But there is the Bible, there is the Koran, there is . . .
Prabhupāda: No, first of all, you are born in India. Why you are jumping to Bible? (laughter) This is another foolishness. You take care of your own house. You are jumping like monkey to Bible. (laughter)
Indian man (4): In our own house there are quite a few dharmas.
Prabhupāda: Therefore ācāryavān puruṣo veda (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 6.14.2). You have to follow the ācāryas. In our country there are ācāryas—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Caitanya Mahāprabhu—those who are recognized authority. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. In the Bhagavad-gītā, ācāryopāsanam. You have to worship the ācārya.
Indian man (6): You have to look up your . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. The ācārya's paramparā is there. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2).
Indian man (4): There is no dearth of ācārya in India. There is ācārya Rajneesh, there is ācārya . . .
Prabhupāda: No. There is ācārya, and there are fools also. Ācārya is there, and fools are there also. The agnostics are there. They will not accept any ācārya. You accept some ācārya. Why you become skeptic? At least, we have to accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme ācārya. Why don't you accept Him? If you are embarrassed whom to select ācārya, so who can be better ācārya than Kṛṣṇa? Why don't you accept Him? That means you want to avoid under some plea. Otherwise, there is ācārya. If you don't believe in other ācārya, you take at least Kṛṣṇa, who is accepted by all the ācāryas. Either Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, or anyone, will they not accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme teacher? Whole world is understanding Kṛṣṇa is the supreme teacher. At least at the present moment they are accepting. We are selling our books daily five to six lakhs' worth, only these Kṛṣṇa consciousness books. And in our country we do not accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme ācārya. What is this? This is our misfortune. Kṛṣṇa is recognized ācārya. There is no doubt about it.
Indian man (7): Sir, (indistinct Hindi).
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa also says, ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāt. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān nāvamanyeta karhicit (SB 11.17.27). Ācārya and Kṛṣṇa—identical. Who is ācārya? Who speaks on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, he is ācārya. Ācārya means one who speaks on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. That is ācārya.
Indian man (4): Because Kṛṣṇa never wrote any book . . .
Prabhupāda: He spoke.
Indian man (4): . . . therefore we have to depend upon these . . .
Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa did not write, but Kṛṣṇa spoke. If you speak, and if I note down and write, what is the difference? Because you did not see, therefore it is not good? He spoke and I note down, er, you note down. Then it is as good. Kṛṣṇa was speaking, and Sañjaya was noting, and that was written by Vyāsadeva in the Mahābhārata. So what is the difference?
Indian man (4): That is one disclosure. That is one only Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: That is sufficient. First of all, you understand few lines of Bhagavad-gītā; then jump over other. About this only, one line, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13), if you simply understand this one line, your life will be successful.
Indian man (3): Kindly explain this line.
Prabhupāda: This line, it is clear, that you have to change this body. Have you got any objection to take it?
Indian man (4): No.
Prabhupāda: Then why you are not serious, "What kind of body I am going to get?" Here is a body, tree. If you are going to accept a body like this, just how miserable it will be. Why you are not afraid? Just like if you want to go from here, Chandigarh, to Delhi, you have to arrange so many things. So what we are doing, that we have to change this body? And there are 8,400,000 different types of bodies. Which body I am going to get? Why you are not serious? We are spoiling our life.
Indian man (4):. That eight million, is that fixed thing, that . . .? So many life, so many animals species and genera have become extinct.
Prabhupāda: 8,400,000 species.
- jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi
- sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati
- kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyayaḥ
- pakṣīṇāṁ daśa-lakṣaṇam
- (Padma Purāṇa)
Everything is there.
Indian man (4): Those that have become extinct, dinosaurs and those . . .
Prabhupāda: That is rascals' theory. Nothing extinct.
Indian man (4): This is not correct.
Prabhupāda: No. Just like he says that man comes from monkey. Monkey is extinct? Where is the question of extinction? There is no question of extinction. There are different species of life, and according to your karma . . . just like there are first-class, second-class, third-class compartments. If you pay for the first class, you enter into first class. You cannot say that third class is extinct. According to your karma . . . karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). According to . . . as you pay. If you pay for third class, you enter into third-class compartment. If you pay for first class, you enter into first class. So it is according to your karma you'll get a body. Why it should be extinct?
Indian man (4): Because it is extinct. We find there are those . . . fossilized . . .
Prabhupāda: You do not find. This is only . . . you simply repeat Darwin, that's all. You do not find. You do not see anything. You simply hear from Darwin. You have taken Darwin as your authority. But you don't take authority Vedas. That is your fault.
Indian man (4): Darwin had drawn that theory from observations . . .
Prabhupāda: Wherefrom he has drawn? He has speculated only, like a rascal. That's all. Wherefrom he got this thing? He has said that, "It is my speculation." Speculation is no knowledge. You can speculate in your own way. Knowledge gathered from the authority, that is real knowledge. (greets someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) We have published even in Chinese language, European.
Indian man (8): With your comments or . . .?
Prabhupāda: No, comments means to explain the original verse.
Indian man (8): You have explained also in that copy?
Indian man (8): From where we can get, sir?
Prabhupāda: You can get from our temple here. Or from the paṇḍāl. (end)