761225 - Morning Walk - Bombay

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Go-previous.pngMorning Walks by Date, 1976
His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



761225MW-BOMBAY - December 25, 1976 - 48.42 Minutes



Prabhupāda: You have to be free from mind also.

Guest (1) (Indian man): Free from mind?

Prabhupāda: Yes, mind.

Guest (1): Yes. Very difficult to control mind.

Prabhupāda: But if you want freedom, you have to do that.

Guest (1): Yes, that's true. There is no other alternative.

Guest (2) (Indian man): Freedom from mind, how would you explain it, or how would you detail it? (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . mind means polluted mind. We are part and parcel of God. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). Jīva is as pure as God, and on account of this mind, he is suffering in this material world. You can see. You can see. Here is a living being, this tree. It is also a living being, but he's standing before me for fifty years or more than that. He cannot move an inch, and we are moving. So why this condition? He is also living being; I am also living being. I have got little freedom to move; he hasn't got. Why this difference of position? Due to the mind. So here in this material world there are 8,400,000 different forms of life. They're all due to the mental concoction. So if we want our original life as good as God, at least in quality, that is freedom of mind. And then we cease to become one of the covered living beings within this material world.

Guest (1): Sir, I read in one of your lectures at London, before the British Office . . . (indistinct) . . . and you gave the example of Mahatma, Mahatma Gandhi and Kennedy. In particular, Mahatma Gandhi you said that four types of defaulted mind and this condition and those condition.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Every living being is polluted by four kinds of deficiencies. A conditioned soul commits mistake. He takes something for something. And because he has no perfect knowledge, he wants to become leader. That is cheating.

Guest (1): Right. You have said that in that speech.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And, above all, his senses are imperfect. Therefore, from such persons with deficiency, how you can get real knowledge? That is not possible. We have to approach a person who has no deficiency. Then we shall get real knowledge. So Kṛṣṇa and His representative are persons without any deficiency. So we have to take knowledge from Kṛṣṇa or one who represents Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise we'll be cheated, because he has got deficiency.

Guest (1): But that you have said, that one of his colleague or assistant told him . . . That is, one of his assistant told him to Gandhi that "There is danger, and you shouldn't go to the meeting," and in spite of that . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, I did not say. I wrote one letter to Gandhi that "Mahatmajī, you have got some respectability throughout the whole world. Now you struggled for so-called svarāja. Now you have got it. Better retire from this life and preach Bhagavad-gītā."

Guest (1): I think he listened to your advice, because before he was murdered, on that day . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Otherwise you'll meet the fate of Mussolini."

Guest (2): And what was his reply?

Prabhupāda: He did not reply.

Guest (1): He drafted that statement that Congress should be dissolved. It should be . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. He was implicated. This is māyā, that although he got svarāja, he was not free. He was full of anxiety, and he was not at all . . . (aside:) Aiye. Jaya. So long one is absorbed in material thoughts, he'll be full of anxieties.

Guest (1): That's true. He was full of anxieties.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means he could not get any spiritual idea. Asad grahāt. Material existence means accepting something which will not exist—asat. Asato mā sad gamaya. The Vedic instruction is, "Do not remain in this material world. Make your progress . . ." (break) Asato mā sad gamaya. But people are so accustomed to materialistic way of life that they are reluctant. That is māyā, very strong. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14).

It is very, very difficult. Māyā tries to punish every conditioned soul, and as soon as there is some attempt to get out of the clutches of māyā, she becomes still strong: "Where you shall go, my dear son? You remain with me." Yaḥ devī sarva-bhūteṣu nidra-rūpiṇa sam . . .(?), in the Caṇḍī. Yaḥ devī, he is situated, keeping the conditioned souls in dream. He is simply dreaming, "I'll be happy in this way; I'll be happy in that way." And that is mental concoction. He'll be never be happy. Kṛṣṇa said, moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12), āsurīṁ bhāvam āśri . . . (BG 7.15). Because he has not recognized the Supreme Personality of Godhead, all his hopes and endeavors will be baffled. So even a person like Mahatma Gandhi, he became baffled.

Guest (1): Yes, that's right. He admitted also.

Prabhupāda: And what to speak of others. His ambition was Hindu-Muslim unity. So that was banned.

Guest (1): Total failure.

Prabhupāda: His ambition was nonviolent—he was killed by violence. So what to speak of others? A person so dedicated, so nice, but he followed the wrong path. Recently I had been to his Sevagram in Wardha. So there was no Kṛṣṇa worship, and he said that he is very fond of Bhagavad-gītā. But he understood Bhagavad-gītā in his own way.

Guest (1): (laughing) In a different way, I would say.

Prabhupāda: And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, as soon as you try to understand Bhagavad-gītā in your own way, it is finished.

Guest (1): Hopeless.

Prabhupāda: It is finished. Naṣṭa. Yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa (BG 4.2). So naṣṭa . . . (indistinct) . . . what is naṣṭa? What is the use of . . .?

Guest (1): It should be destroyed. No use to it.

Prabhupāda: Suppose if I supply you something which is spoiled, then what benefit you will derive? Therefore no benefit is derived by the people in general, either from Gandhi or Vinoba Bhave or Tilak, because it was naṣṭa.

Guest (1): Sir, how do you compare it with . . . This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement . . .

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is . . .

Guest (1): . . . for the common man, for the downtrodden, for the poor?

Prabhupāda: Yes, they can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they will understand.

Guest (1): That should be some motivation . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like if you are hungry, if you get some real food, you'll understand. Example is these American, European boys. They are simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and you see how they are advanced.

Guest (1): How come that in this country they . . .?

Prabhupāda: Immediately come. But you won't take.

Guest (1): I see.

Prabhupāda: That is your fault. You have manufactured your own way of life. Otherwise, Hare Kṛṣṇa is India's gift.

Guest (1): It's not much.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But you won't take it. He'll speak so many nonsense; he'll never speak Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is misfortune.

Guest (2): What are the aims of the Indian society? Although it's given birth to so much, it still doesn't take it as success. What is the weakness in the Indian society that they don't . . .

Prabhupāda: Because they have got bad leaders, the rascal leaders. Just like see. Mahatma Gandhi, he misled. But he did not know how to lead. And what to speak of others. They do not know. I saw this Vinoba Bhave, he does not know anything. He has become leader. I saw in his āśrama about one dozen women, they are reciting Bhagavad-gītā. That's all. And for the last forty years he's working on Bhagavad-gītā, and the result is some forty women is reciting Bhagavad-gītā. So this is the result. So what they will do? They do not know how to lead. And he has written one book on Bhagavad-gītā, but he has become a great leader. And that is also not according to Bhagavad-gītā. This is going on. This is going on.

Guest (1): Unfortunately, he has . . . There are not very silent . . .

Prabhupāda: Take for example satyāgraha. Satyāgraha . . . What is the satyāgraha? That is the child's play. Just like a child, he wants something. You are not giving him, he'll cry. He'll force you. So is there any śāstric injunction? Now these things have become popular. Real thing rejected, and some false thing presented by childish attempt, that is accepted.

Guest (1): But sir, would you not agree that in order to appeal to the masses or to make masses into any movement . . .

Prabhupāda: No, it is . . . You see . . . It is not . . . If you want to become an educated man or if you want to give first-class education, it is not for the mass. It is for the leader. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). If the leaders are educated, then others will follow. But if the leaders are not educated, what the others will do? That is the difficulty. And the so-called leaders, without being educated, they become leader.

Guest (1): That's why all this trouble.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They manufacture some idea.

Guest (1): Which has nothing to do with the . . .

Prabhupāda: Nothing to do . . . It is spoiled. If you manufacture idea, because you are imperfect . . . How you can manufacture ideas? Four deficiencies are there, so if you manufacture with deficiency of your own person, then what will be the knowledge?

Guest (1): The result will also be deficiency.

Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. Our knowledge . . . Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ. So who can be more śreṣṭha than Kṛṣṇa, than Vyāsadeva, Nārada, the ācāryas? But they will not follow. They will manufacture some idea. That is the difficulty in India at the present moment. Some upstart leaders, they have misled them. That is the difficulty. And we are poor fellow. If we say the right thing, they'll not take it.

Guest (1): (laughing) Not only take it but they'll ridicule and say that something has gone wrong somewhere.

Prabhupāda: They'll not take it: "Eh! What is this Swāmījī . . .? Mahatma Gandhi says this and this . . . Tilak says this, this, that." And if we say that they are wrong, then people will criticize, "Oh, he has become more than." This is the difficulty. We don't say anything except what is said by the great personalities that are Kṛṣṇa conscious. So I am not saying anything of my own manufacture. I am simply saying what Kṛṣṇa has said. But they will reject that. I say that Kṛṣṇa says that you become a Kṛṣṇa's devotee. It is very simple for me. And they will say, "Huh! What is this nonsense Kṛṣṇa? We have seen this Kṛṣṇa. Now we have got this leader." This is the problem. Upadeṣo hi mūrkhāṇāṁ prakopāya na śāntaye (Nīti Śāstra). (Hindi)

Guest (2): They reject it because they find it difficult to . . .

Prabhupāda: No, it is not at all difficulty. What is the difficulty?

Guest (2): So then why do they reject it?

Prabhupāda: If I say that "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," where is the difficulty? But he thinks that "This is insignificant." He thinks like that.

Guest (1): Swāmījī says very correctly. He says, you see, that key word . . .

Prabhupāda: What I am teaching these people?

Guest (1): Very simple thing.

Prabhupāda: Very simple thing, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." I have not given them any bribe. I have not shown them any magic of gold manufacturing. From the very beginning I said, "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." But that is becoming fruitful.

Guest (1): That gives them peace of mind, because their mind gets attuned to something that is good.

Prabhupāda: But that they will not take.

Guest (2): That they will not take for what reason?

Prabhupāda: Reason is: "This is cheap. The Swāmī is giving something cheap." Nowadays it has become a fashion, "Meditation." What nonsense meditation he will do? This is going on. He cannot take cheap thing.

Guest (1): Cheap thing may be the right thing, the true thing, but "Because it's cheap, (laughing) so we . . . not to be bothered."

Prabhupāda: In Europe, America, the Indian students, they say, "Oh, we have seen all this Hare Kṛṣṇa. We now want technology."

Guest (1): Sir, I got into conversation this young man in Colombo for the simple reason that I have got five sons, and those sons are trying to be Westernized or Americanized to the extent that I couldn't believe that my own children would go to this extent. So I told Girirāja when he came to see me and introduced my children to them, and it has now little impact. Because now that . . .

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Don't sit down there. Don't sit down there. (Hindi) No, sitting on the . . .

Guest (1): (Hindi) You move it.

Prabhupāda: She is the daughter of Mr. Dani.

Guest (3) (Indian man): They have come with me.

Prabhupāda: So why not ask him. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (1): Now they have, after seeing these young men, they have started thinking that "Why these young men (laughing) from America are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and why we are not doing?" I said, "You just think it over."

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) No, America . . . The purpose of going to America for . . . This was one of the cause, that "When I bring Americans here, these rascals will take some lesson."

Guest (1): I think you are absolutely right. (laughing) Psychologically, somehow or other, anything that is . . .

Prabhupāda: And long, long ago, in the beginning, one friend wrote. I replied in that letter that "You have finished your cows. You are importing powdered milk. Now you have to import brāhmaṇas also from America." (laughter)

Guest (1): True, absolutely true.

Prabhupāda: Now you see that we are establishing so many temples. They are being maintained by imported American brāhmaṇas. You cannot get.

Guest (1): Same thing in Aurobindo. I went to Pondicherry also this time year . . .

Prabhupāda: You cannot get here now brāhmaṇas. They have learned how to eat meat, how to drink, how to have illicit sex. They are finished.

Guest (1): No more brāhmaṇas. You are right. That's tragedy. That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi)

Guest (2): Some of them must be non-greedy, not greedy, eh?

Prabhupāda: There are many good men. It is not that simply brāhmaṇas have gone to hell, but everyone has gone.

Guest (1): . . . (indistinct) . . . has failed.

Prabhupāda: Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. (Hindi) Śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma . . . (BG 18.42). (Hindi) Nobody's . . . (Hindi)

Guest (1): No, the other day I was with Natalia(?) in Japan, and he also said the same thing, that we have no training for the leaders. And because there is no proper leadership, everything comes to a zero. You have to train a man or a woman for a particular work. That is not being done in India.

Guest (2): British did it.

Guest (1): They made their servants quite all right.

Prabhupāda: They wanted for graft, to manipulate their empire. They wanted some subordinate hands. They never wanted to give real education.

Guest (2): That's true.

Prabhupāda: They wanted that the . . . That is cooperation. That is one of the Gandhi's understanding, that "These people are ruling over us by our cooperation. Therefore let us noncooperate, and they'll fail. They'll not be able to rule."

Guest (1): Carry on their . . .

Prabhupāda: But that program was also failure because India is so poor that there was no possible to noncooperate, because Gandhi's civil disobedience movement only 60,000 men joined, and we have 600,000,000. So what is the percentage?

Guest (1): Not even one percent.

Prabhupāda: And that also, when they came back from the jail life, they decided not to do it again. Therefore Gandhi did not recommend mass civil disobedience next time. He recommended individual. (break) . . . but individual . . . (indistinct) . . . 19l7, and we got svarāja in 1947. So it was not due to civil disobedience or noncooperation. It was due to Subash Bose's INA. He thought that when he organized soldiers, and . . .

Guest (1): Put them on the battlefield, fought them, defeated them . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. And when the Britishers found, "Now the soldiers are non-cooperating. There is no hope of ruling," they left.

Guest (1): Yes. That is the truth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And Subash Bose was always against this nonviolent means. That is the difference of opinion with Gandhi. So he wanted to capture the whole power, and he captured. But Gandhi became so angry upon him that he did not attend the Congress when Subash Bose was elected President. Then other lieutenants—Subash Bose also was Gandhi's student—so when others planned, requested that "Gandhijī is not happy. You better resign," so he resigned, and tactfully he went out of India. He knew that "So long Gandhi is there, my policy . . . I'll not be able, because there will be . . ."

Guest (1): Always opposition.

Prabhupāda: ". . . opposition." Therefore he went out and organized the INA, and that was successful. It is not Gandhi's noncooperation movement.

Guest (1): That's true. Now in the British official records which they are publishing their secret papers after twenty-five years, that knowledge is very clearly that it was this armed fight of Indian National Army which convinced the British that they could not rule India with the Indian soldiers.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real noncooperation. (laughter) What this public noncooperation will do? They are simply clerks. Some of them may be high-court judges, but no responsible post was given.

Guest (1): And all these atrocities were committed by Indians upon Indians at the orders of the British.

Prabhupāda: All the big, big secretaries, under-secretaries, governors . . . There was no minister, all European, only some clerks. So what is the use of clerks' noncooperation? They didn't care. And in order to pat Gandhi, the governor sometimes used to invite him, "Sir, you are so powerful. Kindly stop this movement." And Gandhi became puffed-up that the Britishers are very afraid of him. "No! I shall do." And Subash Bose insisting, "In this way, they'll never go by this nonviolent."

Guest (1): Human nature as it is, you can't . . . Unless there is some sort of a compulsion, whether in spiritual . . .

Prabhupāda: And in politics, might is right.

Guest (1): Of course. Survival of the fittest. Survival of the fittest.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In politics you cannot become . . .

Guest (1): A sādhu. It is absurd. (laughing)

Prabhupāda: That is absurd.

Guest (1): Two contradictory terms.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Arjuna was ridiculed: "What is this nonsense?" Kutas tvā kaśmalam idam (BG 2.2): "You have come to fight. You are talking nonsense, that 'I will not fight.' " Kṛṣṇa did not approve.

Guest (1): He told . . . He defined, "What is your dharma and what is niṣkāma akarma." So it's very difficult to define dharma, but once it is defined, there should be no difficulty.

Prabhupāda: No, dharma is there. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That is dharma. And everything is cheating. That . . . Because we are teaching that, that only dharma is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore we are not very much liked. They are of opinion, "Why Kṛṣṇa is God? I have got this God. I have got this, so many incarnations." This is . . .

Guest (2): Why do you say we are not very much liked? The movement is spreading.

Prabhupāda: Because we are fools.

Guest (2): But the movement is spreading, I am saying. I . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is spreading.

Prabhupāda: Movement will spread, undoubtedly, because it is genuine.

Guest (2): It is spreading because we are liked.

Guest (1): No, sir, there you are also correct. I would say this, that these American boys and young girls who have come here, because this our mind is conditioned into inferiority complex or slave-minded person, everything which is adopted there must be good . . .

Prabhupāda: No, we are also slaves, but we are slave of the right person.

Guest (1): Yes, of the Supreme.

Prabhupāda: That is the difference. And they are slaves of their senses. That is the difference. We are not master. We are also slaves. But we are slaves of the person who is perfect, and they are slaves of their senses.

Guest (2): The spread of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement in Bombay in the last three, four years has been . . . I don't know, you may not be satisfied, but I think it's quite good.

Prabhupāda: No, it will be good. If people take to it little seriously, it will be good. Therefore we are spending so much money, that "You come, you all respectable and educated people. Come, try to understand, and spread it for the benefit of your country."

Guest (1): But sir, your conclusion here is correct in the sense that they say that "Swami only says you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa what could be done?"

Prabhupāda: No, no, but they have no eyes to see how it is being done all over the world. They do not consider it, what . . .

Guest (1): How it's done, why it's done, what is the result. (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Film-wala . . .? What is his name?

Girirāja: Devanand?

Prabhupāda: Yes. He purposefully criticized this movement by Hare Kṛṣṇa film.

Guest (1): Yes, yes, I have seen that film.

Prabhupāda: We are going on. He is finished. His film is finished, but we are going on. But he tried purposefully that "This is a hippie movement."

Guest (1): Yes, "Hippie movement, bhāṅg, gāñjā, and all sex and perversion of all sorts."

Guest (2): This cloud on the movement in America, is that vanishing, or what?

Prabhupāda: It will vanish.

Guest (2): It will. It's bound to.

Prabhupāda: Although they are making some strong movement against this.

Guest (2): But what is the position now? Is it dying out or increasing?

Prabhupāda: No, no. We are selling more books.

Guest (2): No, is the cloud dying out? I'm not saying the movement is dying out. The movement cannot.

Prabhupāda: We are . . . (aside:) Now how much worth of books we have sold in one week?

Hari-śauri: Forty-three lakhs.

Prabhupāda: Forty-three lakhs' worth of books we have sold in one week.

Guest (1): Girirāja said that's the main source of income for this movement, as a matter of fact.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we are getting ten lakhs of rupees every month from that book department.

Guest (1): Yes, that's the main source. Because I inquired with him that whether it is not something to do with CIA, wherefrom your money comes.

Prabhupāda: Just see how foolish. The CIA, American CIA, they will pay us, (laughter) and these boys, CIA boys, will come and dance with me. (laughter)

Guest (1): Never. Never.

Prabhupāda: Just understand how these Indians have become rascals. They have no common sense.

Guest (1): Perverts, I would say. Perverts.

Prabhupāda: And that is being supported, "Oh, they are CIA."

Guest (1): So I talked at great length with Girirāja, and I cross-examined him thoroughly with all these Indians who would be thinking about this Hare Kṛṣṇa, because when I said that I have become a Life Member of yours, then he also might have been bit surprised. But mainly I wanted to impress upon my children—they're young boys—that "It's all right. You also go there."

Prabhupāda: Once spoiled, it is very difficult . . .

Guest (1): Very difficult.

Prabhupāda: . . . to reform.

Guest (1): Then minds are spoiled, that is true. Their minds are, all Indian youth, completely.

Prabhupāda: But you have spoiled them. You have given this impression that "This 'religion, religion, religion' has spoiled our country. Now throw it, all these books, in the water." The leaders say that. "Take to technology." They come to me. They challenge, "Swāmījī, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will do? Now we require technology." This is ignorance.

Guest (2): If Gītā is properly explained to a Westernized Indian, it gets accepted sooner than the difficult . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): Indian. Indian.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Guest (1): . . . brāhmaṇas.

Guest (2): No, those are Westernized Indians.

Guest (1): Say, brāhmaṇas from abroad . . .

Prabhupāda: What is the time now?

Guest (1): Yes, sir, it's your time.

Hari-śauri: Quarter to seven. Almost.

Guest (1): Impact from these young boys and girls is good, very good, I should say. These young boys and girls who are working here by their own . . .

Prabhupāda: Their one qualification is that they are not poverty-stricken. And our boys, they are poverty-stricken. So daridra-doṣa guṇa-rāśi-nāśī. Even though are educated, on account of poverty they sacrificed everything—their culture, their knowledge. Daridra-doṣa guṇa-rāśi-nāśī.

Guest (1): Yes, hunger is the cause of all . . . (indistinct) . . . (Sanskrit)

Prabhupāda: I chastise them only because they don't care for money. (laughter)

Guest (1): They are extreme. It is contradiction . . .

Prabhupāda: And because they are fortunate, wherever they go, they get money.

Guest (1): That is law of nature. All the big rivers go to the sea, where water is not wanted.

Prabhupāda: I have seen them. They squander so much money, and I chastise them that "You are so loose, you are so rascal and . . ." But still, whatever money I have got, it is due to them.

Guest (1): That's true, that's true. (laughter) That's true. That's true.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise . . . (laughing)

Guest (1): Really, it is true. (break)

Prabhupāda: I have tried convince them, janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrīḥ (SB 1.8.26), to become moneyed, that also requires background. Pūrva-janmārjitaṁ dhanam. So they are born in rich country; that is due to their past pious deeds. Yes.

Guest (1): Good deeds.

Prabhupāda: There is no doubt. Yes. Now I request them that "You have got everything. You take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you are perfect."

Guest (1): We have degraded ourself to such an extent . . .

Prabhupāda: No, we can rise immediately.

Guest (1): Yes, yes, but foundation stone is there. City is there . . .

Prabhupāda: Foundation or no foundation, but we'll not agree. That is the difficulty. We'll not agree.

Guest (1): It's a difficult job, but it has to be done, because I . . .

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice. Kṛṣṇa says,

sarva-dharmān parityajya
mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja
ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo
mokṣayiṣyāmi . . .
(BG 18.66)

Our difficulties are due to our sinful activities. So Kṛṣṇa assures, "I will excuse you from the resultant action of all sinful activities. You surrender to Me." But I will not do that. What Kṛṣṇa will do? He says, He assures, but nobody will do that. I say to my tenants here that "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious. You won't have to pay rent." (laughter) Because the whole rent . . . I am getting 2,000, 2,500. That is my one day's expenditure.

Guest (1): Eventually they will come around, but it will take time.

Prabhupāda: No, the leaders are not . . . Because their position will be finished, the so-called leaders. They want to keep in ignorance the mass of people so their foolish leadership may go on continually. That is everywhere. (break) (Hindi) . . . learn this philosophy and preach. That is the best service.

Guest (2): My son who lives in America is very Westernized, and as he picked up Gītā, and he tried to understand it, now he now is so much a follower of Gītā that every single letter he quotes Gītā to anyone whom he writes.

Prabhupāda: Which Gītā he has read?

Guest (2): He's very convinced about it.

Prabhupāda: No, no, which Gītā he has read?

Guest (2): Your Gītā.

Prabhupāda: My Gītā?

Guest (2): Your Gītā and Cinmayananda's, two Gītās.

Prabhupāda: Cinmayananda is atheist. Atheist. He does not believe in Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (2): He has donated over three hundred books in that haṭha-yoga, that can . . .

Guest (1): Yes, in USA, Santa Cruz.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he took some lakhs of rupees from Birla for distributing the Gītā. I know that.

Guest (2): He has also translated Gītā.

Guest (1): Shh! Swāmījī's saying is this, that Gītā is interpreted by different people in different way. That is true. Understanding of Gītā is a very big . . .

Prabhupāda: He does not present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. According to his own whims. But the original śloka is there.

Guest (1): But interpretation is his own.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): Original śloka, of course, everybody would put. Then they interpret in their own way. I think, sir, most of us are accepted through this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, as you have rightly said.

Prabhupāda: What is the public opinion?

Guest (1): Public opinion, people like us who have been abroad for, say, quarter of a century or so . . . I have been to the States. I almost go every year. And this is the right thing. This is the right thing. When I was child, about fifteen, I went to Japan, and all my life I am abroad. This is the right thing. This is simple. It's only a matter of conviction. If you have faith, then everything becomes quite all right. There is nothing much that is extraordinary that could not be done. It's a pure and simple, good life. Get up early in the morning . . .

Prabhupāda: (aside:) They supply water regularly?

Devotee: Yes.

Guest (1): Here Indians don't get up early in the morning. All our forefathers did. The people, most of them would be snoring? No. (break)

Prabhupāda: That two days I had been in Mahabaleshwar, and our host was sleeping. (laughter) So I asked them, "Let us go immediately, otherwise we'll be infected." (laughter) So I left that place.

Guest (1): A normal day of life . . .

Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's five to seven. You can go down now. (break)

Guest (1): More or less than . . . (indistinct) . . . Normalization.

Prabhupāda: Yes, naturalization.

Guest (1): Naturalization.

Hari-śauri: Will you be speaking this morning, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? No. (break)

Guest (1): One question is almost complete, and they have become sort of influence of (Hindi) reception or whatever name you call it.

Guest (2): Why have you said Cinmayananda, atheist?

Prabhupāda: There are so many statements. In his book there are so many statements. Does he recommend to worship Kṛṣṇa?

Guest (2): Does he recommend . . .?

Guest (1): Does he recommend to worship Śrī Kṛṣṇa?

Guest (2): I don't know. I have not read . . .

Prabhupāda: So then why you are asking about him? (laughter)

Guest (2): No, my point is he is preaching religion . . .

Prabhupāda: He is nonsense. You do not know about him, and you are asking about him. That is the pity. "He is supposed to be a great . . . (indistinct) . . ." If you know about him, then speak.

Guest (2): No, I don't know enough about him.

Prabhupāda: Then why you are recommending? Then why you are recommending?

Guest (2): But he's preaching religion.

Prabhupāda: That means you don't know religion.

Guest (1): He is preaching Gītā, that's true, but as Swāmījī says, that is interpretation of his own. Original words are there. Everybody who speaks about Gītā . . .

Prabhupāda: Religion is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. But he does not recommend to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. What does he know about Kṛṣṇa? That is the difficulty. He does not know what is Kṛṣṇa, what is religion, and he is preaching religion?

Guest (1): He's supposed to be one of the biggest propagator of Gītā. He had Gītāra Jñāna Yajña in Bombay. There were thousands of people there.

Prabhupāda: False, everything false. Misled. He does not recognize Kṛṣṇa, he does not recognize religion, and he is religious.

Guest (1): One of the best religious leaders. That's what people think.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that may be, falsely representation, but where he is recommending that "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa and worship Him"? Has he done that? That means misleading. He can become a very good orator, and he can get claps, but what is the benefit? He's a good orator, there is no doubt about it. But Kṛṣṇa does not say that "You become a orator and cheat others." He does not say. He says, "Surrender unto Me." So if actually one is preaching, he should teach the audience that "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." And that is reading of Bhagavad-gītā. If I take Bhagavad-gītā and speak something of my opinion, that means I am cheating. I am taking advantage of Bhagavad-gītā, and I am impressing people with my nonsense ideas.

Guest (1): That's right.

Prabhupāda: If you want to cheat others, you cheat in your own way. Why do you take Bhagavad-gītā?

Guest (1): Don't take the protection of Bhagavad-gītā. That is doubly wrong.

Prabhupāda: That is great cheating, great cheating.

Guest (1): In the name of Bhagavad-gītā . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): . . . one should not . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. Everyone is doing that.

Guest (1): Yes. We have many propagations of Gītā in this country.

Prabhupāda: He is preaching his own ideas and taking Bhagavad-gītā.

Guest (1): Yes. Under the umbrella of Bhagavad-gītā he does it.

Prabhupāda: Smoking gāñjā with a friend's hand because there is smell, so the friend's hand will smell. (Hindi) (laughter) This is going on. (Hindi)

Guest (1): There will be immediate protest the moment . . . This film has got the connotation that Hare Kṛṣṇa means . . . Now, these boys, by their own conduct and by their own hard work, whosoever has come into contact with them have realized that this is genuine, and actually those . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you see, something cheating which is going on for long time, to stop it, it will take some time.

Guest (1): Yes. Unless and until the people who are well-to-do . . .

Prabhupāda: We have got one little test. You can also use that. Kṛṣṇa says,

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ
prapadyante narādhamāḥ
māyayāpahṛta-jñānā
āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ
(BG 7.15)

So you make one test: whether he has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. If he has not done, then he is in these four categories. What are they? Duṣkṛtina, great sinful; mūḍha, rascal; narādhama, lowest of the mankind. And if you say, "Oh, these are so big, big learned scholar," now māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. Why? Āsuraṁ bhāvam. Asura. Asura's business is to deny Kṛṣṇa and to kill Kṛṣṇa. So all these people, they are reading Bhagavad-gītā, and they are trying to kill Kṛṣṇa. (kīrtana in background) Is it not a fact? All these big, big leaders, they'll speak on Bhagavad-gītā, and they will never say that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You surrender to Him."

Guest (2): A friend of mine has surrendered to Cinmayananda. He says he is giving Bhagavad-gītā four hours a day . . . (indistinct) . . . Not for surrendering.

Prabhupāda: But not for surrendering.

Guest (2): "He is using the Bhagavad-gītā for our day-to-day life." I said to him, "Why? Why can't you . . . (indistinct) . . .?" but not surrendering as Swāmījī has said.

Prabhupāda: So they have made their own meaning. "Bhagavad-gītā is not meant for surrender." Just see. (end).