770106 - Conversation A - Bombay
Prabhupāda: . . . Dialectic Spiritualism.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) You have taken their, I mean, word.
Prabhupāda: It is not their words, but just to counter . . .
Dr. Patel: In fact, sir, Engel was a spiritualist, and his chela, Karl Marx, became materialist because he saw abject poverty all round, due to the industrial revolution. He thought in that way. He became . . .
Prabhupāda: As if he was ordained to do it.
Dr. Patel: But, well, he felt . . . he was a philosopher.
Prabhupāda: Such a rascal. He has removed poverty. He was in poverty-stricken . . .
Dr. Patel: He was extremely poor man. Yes, he died after . . . (indistinct) . . . but that is what he thought.
Prabhupāda: That means poor fund of knowledge. That's it.
Dr. Patel: Engel was a, absolutely a . . .
Prabhupāda: These rascals will never go to the . . . tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). They do not know this science, these rascals. They manufacture. And we have also learned to manufacture.
Dr. Patel: No, he did only on the Western thought.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Western philosophy . . . we have learned this art, manufacturing. Just like Vinoba Bhave has proposed, "I want mukti not in the traditional way." He'll manufacture his own way. This is his intelligence after eighty-two years or eighty-one years. "Not in the traditional, not in the religious way." Just see. He's still hovering in darkness, and he's going to get mukti. This is the position.
Trivikrama: Prabhupāda has said that the Russian intelligence and Indian culture.
Dr. Patel: Sir, I may tell you, Russians are not that intelligent, I may tell you, sir. I have very poor regard for the Russian intelligence. Intelligence is not with Russians that much.
Prabhupāda: No. No, no, all Europeans, they're very intelligent.
Dr. Patel: Including Germans.
Prabhupāda: They're very intelligent. Germans are extraordinarily intelligent.
Indian man: The Aryan races are intelligent, and in Russia there is a mixed race.
Prabhupāda: They are Aryans. They are Aryans.
Dr. Patel: No, Aryan as well as the other races.
Prabhupāda: Mixture everywhere now.
Dr. Patel: No, here . . . I mean, so far as the Eastern European is concerned, they are more or less pure. They are mixed in a way.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, we are not on that platform, we or anyone. (laughs) We think we are on the . . . everyone in the material platform, more or less, they are rascals—here or there. The Bengali is guhyera epi han opit. You know this? Stool, this side or that side, eastern side or western side . . .
Dr. Patel: It is all stool.
Prabhupāda: . . . it is, after all, stool. (laughs) If somebody says, "Eastern side of the stool is very good," (laughter) that is his foolishness.
Dr. Patel: After the scattering of these Aryans, they have come different place. I mean, how is it that we brought all the cultural heritage in north, east and western districts? They must have also taken. But because they have to live very hard life, they are in cold countries . . .
Prabhupāda: And what do you mean by "we"? We are not . . .
Dr. Patel: "We" means our forefathers. I mean, we have too, later.
Prabhupāda: Forefathers may be saintly person, but we are not. Why do you say "we"?
Dr. Patel: "We" means the descendants of our forefathers.
Prabhupāda: My father might have been very rich man, but I am a poverty-stricken man, loitering in the street. Why say "we"?
Dr. Patel: "We" means these Aryans in India, they brought all the Vedas and Vedic culture with them. They must have taken it in.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. One who is speaking, he is not in Vedic culture. That is the difficulty.
Dr. Patel: I talk of these historical facts, sir. Historically, Eastern European races are just our cousin. I mean the Indian races. But still, they have not been able to take the . . .
Prabhupāda: This, falsely to become proud: "We," "We have done." What I am at the present? That is to be taken, not that . . . now in Bengal . . . "Fourteen generations before my father took ghee, and I have got a smell." (laughs) What is that? Whether you are eating ghee or not, (laughter) that is talk, not that, "Fourteen generations before my father and forefathers ate ghee, and I have got the smell here." (laughs)
Dr. Patel: No, we talk of Vedic culture, sir.
Prabhupāda: Vedic culture is all right now. There is no question of "we" or "you."
Dr. Patel: But why it is not with them?
Prabhupāda: Why it is not with you? First of all say why you are challenging them? (laughter) First of all challenge yourself.
Dr. Patel: (laughing) That's right. But they have not . . . their forefathers have got. We have at least with our forefathers.
Prabhupāda: No, no, their forefathers are the Aryans, the same forefathers, your forefathers.
Dr. Patel: They're Aryans, but they did not take the Vedic culture with them.
Prabhupāda: They did not take; you are not taking. That's the same thing.
Dr. Patel: Actually, presently the whole world is the same.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is our concern: how the world is misdirected. That we are challenging, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not that, "East," "West," "you," "I." Everyone is a victim. Bhāgavata says, prāyena kalau asmin yuge janāḥ (SB 1.1.10): "In this age everyone is condemned." It doesn't say that, "These Eastern, Western." Everyone is condemned. Kalau asmin yuge janāḥ. That is impartial. (to Mahāṁsa) How are you? Everything is all right?
Prabhupāda: So Badruka has returned?
Mahāṁsa: He came yesterday in the evening. I could not see him.
Prabhupāda: So, it is not yet registered?
Mahāṁsa: No. As soon as I get back today, it will be registered. He came just yesterday in the evening.
Prabhupāda: So? What other news?
Mahāṁsa: We are just waiting to get some water facilities made so that we can start doing something in the meantime.
Prabhupāda: The water is not yet there?
Mahāṁsa: One boring is finished. Now the pump has to be gotten for that. The second boring, we didn't have . . . I wasn't over there. I had gone to South India to collect some money. And then, when I came back, the people had gone away because there was no money to be paid to them.
Prabhupāda: Why? I have already transferred it.
Mahāṁsa: That came just five days back, that transfer. So now we'll be working on it full swing because we have some money.
Prabhupāda: So the bank has transferred?
Prabhupāda: So the prospect is nice?
Mahāṁsa: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: People are coming?
Mahāṁsa: Well, when I came . . . when I went to the farm, down south, there was about 270 people.
Mahāṁsa: Yes. But then, when I returned, there was only fifty people.
Mahāṁsa: Because the prasādam quantity was cut down, so the . . .
Prabhupāda: Why cut down?
Mahāṁsa: I don't know.
Prabhupāda: So you don't know. Who knows?
Mahāṁsa: Well, Tejas and Haṁsadūta, they said to cut down the prasādam quantity, and so the . . .
Prabhupāda: These nonsense ideas, why you make without asking? I am paying money. Why it should be cut down?
Mahāṁsa: Yes. I, er . . .
Prabhupāda: Don't do anything nonsensically. This should be increased. I shall pay. Why you are anxious? So?
Mahāṁsa: Now when I get back I'm going to work on it and see that at least every evening . . .
Prabhupāda: They should come. Every evening they should come, as many as possible. Give them prasādam. Our mission is to induce them to chant and take prasādam. Then, next stage, if they want to work with us, it is welcome. If not, we shall go on giving prasādam and induce them to chant. This is our mission.
Mahāṁsa: The village people are very happy.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they should be. That I want. Sarve sukhine bhavantu. This is our mission.
Mahāṁsa: The stone-cutting has also started.
Prabhupāda: Ah, that's nice.
Mahāṁsa: They're doing very well. And, er . . .
Prabhupāda: Here we're inviting everyone, "Come here. Live here. Take prasādam and chant. Don't drink tea." That's all. (chuckles) That is . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Trivikrama: "No tea?"
Prabhupāda: No tea, no cigarette. That is their disease. No tea, no . . . don't stop prasādam. Never. Increase. I shall beg and supply you money, don't worry. But don't waste it. Simply you take money and utilize it for preaching. My only anxiety is that don't be extravagant. Otherwise you take money and spend it.
Mahāṁsa: Don't be extravagant.
Prabhupāda: You should always know that hard-earned money is. By working at night I am producing book, and they're working there hard, selling the books, and money is coming in that way. So either he or me, mine or yours, it is hard-earned money. It is not easily coming. And therefore we should be cautious. But there is no question of curtailing. There is no question.
Mahāṁsa: Now we are in the process of making a brochure so that we can present to trusts and foundations for bigger donations for the farm project.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. They have amassed money. Let them spend for this village organization. This is real Gandhi's program. He wanted this village organization. But because they manufactured their own way, it was not successful. But if we follow this principle, it will be successful, without any doubt. These big, big āśramas. Gandhi's āśrama is vacant.
Dr. Patel: Yes, because . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: No. They are getting money, but they have no such program.
Dr. Patel: . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: It must be, because there is no solid program. There is no solid program; simply imagination.
Dr. Patel: No. Because the followers . . .
Prabhupāda: How there will be followers? If there is some program, then there will be followers.
Dr. Patel: He wanted to defend the commoners. He wanted to defend the order so that the commoners . . . (indistinct) . . . and the program for socially work . . . (indistinct) . . . was the plan. But he unfortunately died.
Prabhupāda: Everyone will die. (laughs) But kīrtir yasya sa jīvati. If you do something tangible, then you will live. And if you do something fictitious, then with your death everything is gone. Kīrtir yasya sa jīvati. But here the whole population is duṣkṛti. They are kṛti, but they are doing something wrong: duṣkṛti. How? Prapanna prapajante mām. This is his miscon . . . mischievous activity. Because he has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, whatever he has done, it is all mischievous. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). Why he has done mischievous activities, mūḍha? The only test is, if one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, whatever he does it is all mischievous. So immediately go, and you'll see.
Mahāṁsa: Every morning we go on nagara-kīrtana to every village.
Prabhupāda: Mmm. Yes, invite them. Invite them. (Hindi)
Trivikrama: This lady is coming from Germany.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Indian lady?
Prabhupāda: (long Hindi conversation with lady) You cannot do anything. Ultimately they will say no, and for this they are paying tax. (Hindi with lady) I have got information . . . (Hindi with lady) Very nice. You have got the desire, and Kṛṣṇa will fulfill your desire. (Hindi with lady) Then with practice, then it becomes success. Ādau śraddhā tato sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā (CC Madhya 23.14). This Kṛṣṇa consciousness can be increased by gradual process. First thing, just like you have got faith, it is nice thing. This is śraddhā. Then to associate with persons who are already engaged in this business, sādhu-saṅga. That is called sādhu-saṅga. Ādau śraddhā tato. And then act like them, bhajana-kriyā. Simply theoretical will not help.
Indian lady: (Hindi conversation with Prabhupāda)
Prabhupāda: So where you have given her place, Bhūrijana?
Bhūrijana: In the . . . one of the guest rooms.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. (pause) Vīra-gati, vīra-nadi. (break) . . . to me, vīra-kanyā. Not personally, but the daughter of vīra, the wife of vīra, the mother of vīra, that is right position. Just like Kuntī; she was the mother of vīra, Arjuna's mother. Mmm.
Indian lady: Should I recite it, what I have written?
Prabhupāda: Mmm, hmm.
Indian lady: (reads a paper—indistinct) Religion and freedom as respected by anyone is fully enjoyed by the people in East, India and connected cultures. In Western culture religion's goal has got its deep roots from Western religion, especially Christianity. Every religion has got . . . (indistinct) . . . proper development of modern values and human respect in the members of the society. Same can be said for Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. In the past ten years, Śrīla Prabhupāda has gone to America and gave them spiritual knowledge to the people there. It . . . (indistinct) . . . a modern movement when this movement was introduced to the people in America, because by that time in the past twelve years, especially by younger generation who are looking for guidance and to pick up their mental attitude towards life . . . (indistinct) . . . affected badly by drugs and in addition sex . . . (indistinct) . . . and to earning much money in the pocket to squander away. This movement is doing great service to the Western people, especially in America and Europe to do it, rethinking of the attitudes of life and the way of living. The rules of the movement are from the pure Hindu national religion, which prohibits meat-eating, sex and awarding a life of devotion to God, which is in the . . . (indistinct) . . . of Lord Krsna is believed, and faith by performing Kṛṣṇa and . . . (indistinct) . . . etc. Unfortunately, some invested people want to bring a bad name to the movement in the West in America from incidents occured . . . (indistinct) . . . that they are doing a brainwashing of the young girls and boys. More worst situation is organized in the West Germany, where an organized propaganda against the movement and the society has been conducted. In most of the papers they have been levelled as if they had been involved in kidnapping by young boys and girls and have kept them illegally custody in a Hare Kṛṣṇa temple, and they conducted the brainwashing of these young people in Berlin and Hamburg intolerable accepted, where is done by some people with the help of police in the temple along with the relatives who are . . . (indistinct) . . . and distraught. And among the . . . (indistinct) . . . 8,800 DM was . . . (indistinct) . . . by the police, though their money was legally collected, legally deposited in a German bank by a legally registered society under this movement. In some cases young devotee girls was locked in one room and harassing questions put to them to terrify.
Some people have gone to the extent of writing them . . . (indistinct) . . . prosecute and other . . . (indistinct) . . . During the last two, three years it is forbidden to collect any fund and practise Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . openly in Germany. Even some court cases was put against the president and vice-president of the Hare Krsna temple situated at . . . (indistinct) . . . The devotees were incensed . . . (indistinct) . . . regular part of the general and sell book Bhagavad-gītā written by Śrīla Prabhupāda. These books have been translated in different languages of the Europe. The proceeds from these books are used for the purpose of collecting the cult . . . (indistinct) . . . specially in India, this system has been very widely supported by the . . . (indistinct) . . . in New Delhi . . . (indistinct) . . . Tarun Kanti Ghosh, minister of . . . (indistinct) . . . West Bengal. (Hindi questions from Prabhupāda answered in Hindi by lady) . . . by the poor children. These are the appreciation letters by Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma. West Bengal . . . (indistinct) . . . bona fide program of the movement by distributing food to the poor and needy people without any discrimination. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Actually, you have seen in our Māyāpur there is no question Hindu, Muslim. Everyone takes prasādam. There is no question.
Indian lady: (Hindi).
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) It is a great, fortunate that you are trying to understand. So if you try to understand this philosophy, you understand it is not the so-called religion; it is a culture for benefit of the whole human society, para-upakāra. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). Because people are in the darkness of knowledge, to enlighten them to come to the light, that is Vedic injunction: tamasi mā jyotir gamaḥ: "Do not remain in darkness; come to the light." So our attempt is to bring these people who are kept in different types of, or different standard of darkness, to bring them to light. This is our position. It is not sectarian—not for the Hindus, not for the Indians—but it is meant for the whole human society. Kṛṣṇa never said that He's Hindu or He's Indian. He says:
- sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
- sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ
- tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma
- ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
He never says that "I am for the Hindu or for the Indians." Sarva-yoniṣu. There are 8,400,000 species of different types of life. That is the fact. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 7.10). Wherefrom the life is coming? These rascals, they do not understand what is actual science, how things are going on, how the laws of nature is working. Simply superficially, "We have got some ideas." Fundamentally they have no knowledge. So we are trying to enlighten them with our teeny effort. Although it is single-handed, still it is genuine. If you kindly try to understand the whole philosophy. The first thing is, andhā yathāndair upanīyamānā (SB 7.5.31). The whole world is now being conducted by blind leaders. And they're keeping people in darkness because they are themselves in darkness. They do not know what is light. So they do not know what is the object of life, what is the destination of life. Simply in blind faith they have created so many isms. It is simply misleading. It is little difficult to understand that we are simply leading others . . . that's a fact. That's a fact. If you impersonally try to understand this philosophy that every man is kept in the darkness of a different stamp, different ism . . . that is the first instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptir (BG 2.13): after death you have to change your body. Then where is your ism? Whole ism changed. That they do not understand. They're so much in darkness, mūḍha. "Today I am very great national leader—my country, my . . ." so on, so on. And tomorrow by the laws of nature if I become a dog in Europe, then where is my nationalism? And it is possible. It is possible. Because you are under nature's law, you are not independent. Therefore they have given up this idea that there is life after death. This is their first ignorance. Everyone is thinking that this life is everything for twenty years or thirty years, utmost hundred years—eat, drink, be merry, enjoy, then everything is finished. The whole Russian people, they think like that. Not whole—I don't, I cannot say—but the learned, their learned professors, they think like that: "The life is ended after this body." So our people also, our these politicians, they also think like that.
Devotee: . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is the platform of ignorance. And people are so much deeply merged into this ignorance, it is very, very difficult to raise them from this ignorance. This is our task. The first business is to convince him that, "Your life continues." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). But it is very difficult for the modern man to understand. They have been so poorly educated that it is very difficult. But this is the first beginning of knowledge. And if we are in the conception that, "I am this body and the body is everything," then we are no better that the cats and dogs. So this is a movement to raise people from the platform of cats' and dogs' life. It is little difficult, but we have to do it. That is our mission, Caitanya Mahāprabhu: para-upakāra. They're living like cats and dogs—do something good for them so that they may live like actual human beings. This is our . . .
So you kindly stay here for some days, read our books, and if there is any question, doubt, I shall be very glad to enlighten you. But this is the fact, the whole world is misguided by the rascal leaders, I must say that. Andhā. Andhā is the last word of rascaldom. Andhā yathāndair upanīyamānā. If I say somebody, "You are rascal," that is; maybe partially he may be intelligent. But when we say andhā, andhā, then he's blind; he cannot see anything. So that is the description given by Bhāgavatam: na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā (SB 7.5.31). They are durāśayā, hopelessly hopeful, trying to adjust things—bahir-artha-māninaḥ—by external energy. Simply wasting time. It cannot be. This is the position. So we are trying little bit, and if you help us, it is welcome. Everyone should help this movement, prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā (SB 10.22.35), by sacrificing life, artha, money, and intelligence. So you have moved among the higher circle. What is the opinion of our government men about this movement?
Devotee: (explaining) What is it our government people think about our movement?
Indian lady: . . . (indistinct) . . . I am not talk about now this moment, because I came yesterday night. In Europe I have talked with my Consulate General. Their people say: "I am helpless. You must go to India and talk about it," and for this in India. It is very difficult here. Because our relation is not good to West Germany.
Prabhupāda: They're so afraid they cannot say the truth.
Indian lady: Their people don't like us.
Prabhupāda: Oh, where is good? Everything is bad.
Indian lady: German people don't like us.
Prabhupāda: Why we are liked? We are poor; who will like us? Poor man is never liked, especially in the Western countries. They hate. And not only there, our Canakya Paṇḍita also said, daridra-doṣa guṇa-rāśi nāśī: "If you are poor, then all your qualities are gone."
Dr. Patel: The disease. God is a disease.
Prabhupāda: So materially, wherever I go, there any gentleman I meet, "Oh, you are coming from India? Very poor country." This is our . . . (indistinct) . . . not now, fifty years ago, in 1930s, when one of my Godbrothers, one or two, they went to London, Lady Willingdon, she was speaking that "You people come here from India, and we give you degrees, and you earn your livelihood in India. So what you have come to teach us?" That's a fact. We go to England to take the degrees—MRCT, FRCA, barrister or so on, so on, so on.
Indian lady: I am . . . (indistinct) . . . with Dr. Khorana. He has got Nobel Prize in America, but today people don't respect it in India. Dr. Khorana, he has got a Nobel Prize in America. The Indian government can't accept it. And after that . . .
Prabhupāda: American Nobel Prize?
Dr. Patel: He did not win this Nobel Prize . . . (indistinct) . . . he was an actual friend of mine, Dr. Khorana, who has got . . . (indistinct) . . . He was very intelligent, extremely intelligent. That's why . . .
Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean to say, Nobel Prize is given from . . .
Indian lady: The son of America. The son of America.
Dr. Patel: He migrated to America. He married a Swiss girl in America, and he made a original discovery in genetic code, and then he got a Nobel Prize. These people did not give him a job as teacher.
Indian lady: (Hindi) He has decided that, "I can't accept it."
Dr. Patel: His livelihood is . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) so-called nationalism. (Hindi) We don't say like that. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54).
Dr. Patel: He's very kind man.
Prabhupāda: Such a kind man, so we are not also bad man.
Dr. Patel: No, no, I don't mean that. (laughter) God knows . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: The thing is that this nationalism is . . . we have to go beyond that. Actually they're happening. These boys, they're not thinking in terms of nationalism. Otherwise he had no business to come to me and to start this. We are in a different platform—Kṛṣṇa-ism. That is our platform. So we shall go now?
Indian man: (Hindi) . . . (indistinct) . . . come this morning? He's coming to the temple for the . . . (indistinct) . . . (break)
Prabhupāda: Dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam (BG 10.10). Kṛṣṇa is within you. If you actually want to serve Kṛṣṇa, He'll give you intelligence. He says personally, dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam. What kind of? Yena mām upayānti te. So it is automatically available if you are sincerely desiring to serve Kṛṣṇa. Na toṣana chādiyā varṇāśrama-dharma. (break) (end)