770123 - Conversation C - Bhuvanesvara
Prabhupāda: He started this rājya hope, "We must have our own land." So he was a very big man, barrister. So one, his friend, he was also brāhmaṇa, he felt it, and he was taking it daily, gaṇgā-snāna. So this, his friend, Mr. Bannerjee, he came to see him that, "You bring one doctor." He refused, "No, I don't want. I'll drink this Ganges water." So he never took any help from the brāhmaṇas. But simply drinking Ganges water—cured. And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also it is stated, nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ, tāvad vibho tanu-bhrtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām (SB 7.9.19). A doctor medicine is not actually cure. Unless . . . if somebody is neglected, denounced by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, any amount of medicine or good physician will not be able to cure. Father, mother is not the shelter of the children. The things are described in the Bhāgavatam.
Indian man (1): Bhagavad-gītā also mentions that the mantram also is Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself . . .
Indian man (1): . . . in some ślokas . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: In another place, Bhāgavatam, it is said, bhavauṣadhi. Nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhi chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt (SB 10.1.4). So this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is bhavauṣadhi, that one must have faith rigidly. Otherwise . . . Kṛṣṇa is the protector. In Bengali it is said, rākhe kṛṣṇa māre ke māre kṛṣṇa rākhe ke: "If Kṛṣṇa wants to kill somebody, who can give him protection?" That faith we are losing at the present moment. We are, in India especially, we are born in a country where God descends as Lord Rāmacandra, Lord Kṛṣṇa, Lord Buddha, Caitanya. Now they are asking, "What is God?" So the old culture has to be revived. And this is an attempt, humble attempt, to revive our old culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We should join together.
Indian man (1): We should.
Prabhupāda: To this purpose we are attempting to open a center here. And Mr. Pandiya, how long you are here in . . .?
Mr. Pandiya: I'm here for the last six months, sir.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Before that, where you . . .?
Mr. Pandiya: Before that, I was at Berhampur.
Prabhupāda: So my gesture was right. By seeing your face I asked you as some member of . . .
Mr. Pandiya: That's a terrific guess.
Indian man (1): That's it.
Prabhupāda: Bhāratī Mahārāja may be now about forty years? No. Little more.
Mr. Pandiya: Little more. I am now forty-nine, so he would be about four years younger.
Prabhupāda: Four years younger. Yes.
Mr. Pandiya: Forty-five.
Prabhupāda: But his health is nice. He looks younger. (pause) So in this book the whole incident is described.
Indian man (1): . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: I have given everything in the commentary.
Indian man (2): Everything is described. Only the thing is that we should get the sense and do in our action. That is the whole thing. Our roots are India . . .
Indian man (1): (interrupting) Sir, how to bathe also it is mentioned.
Indian man (2): (to other guest) Just a minute. Also India, in our country, in the recent history of our country, we had many cultured peoples like Gandhi and Patel. But how these two men became great, not others? Because only by their actions.
Prabhupāda: Our greatness in this country was considered on spiritual advancement.
Indian man (1): Exactly. We Indian people, we know what is religion, not politics. We're not after politics so much.
Prabhupāda: No. Politics is there. Politics means formerly the brāhmaṇas were the guide: teacher of the society, guide of the society. Brahminical culture. The brāhmaṇas were not interested in politics. They would give advice to the kṣatriyas, and the kṣatriyas would administer. Brāhmaṇas were not interested to take politics, from time immemorial, even during the time of Mahārāja Pṛthu. Not that the kṣatriyas were irresponsible. No. They were taking guidance from the learned brāhmaṇas, saintly persons, and they were ruling over. Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira was doing that. Mahārāja Parīkṣit was doing that. Lord Rāmacandra also.
Indian man (3): During the present day, sir, to whom we will treat as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya and vaiśya and śūdra?
Prabhupāda: That I was explaining. According to the symptom.
Indian man (2): Cātur-varnyam mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).
Prabhupāda: So actual . . .
Mr. Pandiya: Vṛttam eva tu kāraṇam.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unfortunately, at the present moment there is no brāhmaṇa. Kalau śūdra-sambhavāḥ.
Indian man (4): During Pratāparudra's time, his rāja-guru was Kavi Jiya-devācārya.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Every king.
Indian man (4): And he was his preceptor and minister.
Prabhupāda: The Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya also was.
Indian man (4): (indistinct) . . . to Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya.
Indian man (4): He wrote Bhakti-bhāgavata Mahā-kavya, and taking materials for Tenth Skandha of Bhāgavata, the Bhāgavata, he wrote a kavya called Bhakti-bhāgavata Mahā-kavya in thirty-two cantos, in the work only itself. When Pratāparudra was on expedition to South, he wrote on the bank of the river Kaveri this Mahā-kavya called Bhakti-bhāgavatam, containing thirty-two cantos, each canto containing about two hundred ślokas.
Prabhupāda: Big work.
Indian man (4): And recently we have taken up the editing of this manuscript from our . . .
Prabhupāda: Oh. It was in manuscript.
Indian man (4): Yes.
Prabhupāda: The brāhmaṇas were so learned at that time. Therefore brāhmaṇas were addressed as Paṇḍita, Paṇḍitjī. Still they're addressed. Brāhmaṇas were addressed as Paṇḍita, kṣatriyas were addressed as Ṭhākura, vaiśyas were addressed as Mahājana, and śūdras were addressed as Chaudhuri.
Indian man (1): Chaudhuri.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they're still. In northern India this is the etiquette.
Indian man (2): But, sir, now these things are so complicated only the title indicates the caste.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Nowadays it is topsy-turvied. There is no system, Kali-yuga.
Indian man (1): Today somebody is a brāhmaṇa, tomorrow he's kṣatriya, and day after tomorrow he's something else.
Prabhupāda: Udaraṁ bharatā. Dakṣyaṁ udaraṁ bhāratā. Bās. Kali-yuga. Somehow or other, if you can fill up your bellies, then you are very expert. That is going on. If you can maintain your family nicely, then you are dakṣya. Dakṣyaṁ udaraṁ bhāratā. These symptoms are there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Because the Kali-yuga, it is so condemned that it will be difficult to maintain one's body and soul together, that udaraṁ bharita is very expert. He's maintaining. (laughs) Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā (SB 1.1.10). All unfortunate. They have no certainty. In Western countries they have voluntarily given up regulative life, the hippies. No certainty where he shall eat, where he shall lie down. Voluntarily. Coming of very nice family. In Europe, America . . . especially in America there is no question of becoming poor. Everyone has got sufficient means. But still, voluntarily they have accepted this poverty. Voluntarily. A father is rich man. Grandfather is rich man. And besides that, the government maintains. If you have no engagement, the government will give you at least twenty-five dollars per week. Is it not?
Satsvarūpa: More than that.
Prabhupāda: More than that. You were in the welfare department. What is the minimum?
Satsvarūpa: It keeps going up. I think it's more like forty, fifty dollars for one person.
Prabhupāda: Forty means, at the rate of nine rupees?
Indian man (2): Nine-fifty.
Prabhupāda: No, not fifty. Per week, yes.
Mr. Pandiya: In Western countries they give wages in terms of weeks.
Prabhupāda: Yes, weekly.
Indian man (1): So spiritually they are innocent, comparing with India. We have become complicated after passing through many cultural ups and downs.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Due to these blind leaders. You see Bhagavad-gītā.
Indian man (3): But, sir, Gandhi told that, "You read Gītā."
Prabhupāda: He did not know himself. (laughs) That is the pity. He has spoken in this Gītā lecture that, "My imagination of Kṛṣṇa is different from Bhagavad-gītā", that Kṛṣṇa is a subject matter of imagination. Have you read his lecture on Gītā?
Indian man (1): Gītā-pravacana.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Gītā-pra . . . is Vinobha.
Indian man (3): What students can do? In the topic of . . . what students can do?
Prabhupāda: You read Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You read Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Because Gandhi or Vinobha or Vivekananda or Aurobindo, they do not come in the paramparā system. They have made themselves important by their own ideas. That we want to check. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. You cannot make any amendment or correction in the Bhagavad-gītā. But these people, unfortunately, they take advantage of the popularity of Bhagavad-gītā and give their own comment.
Mr. Pandiya: To suit their purposes.
Prabhupāda: That's all. This is the dangerous . . . and they are considered as big men, and people follow, and they are misled. Otherwise, in India, so much fallen condition due to these rascal leaders. That I am speaking repeatedly, although it may be very harsh. But we have to say that. Everyone has distorted. Gandhi says Kurukṣetra, "this body." Where is the chance of talking of "this body," the Kurukṣetra? Has he not?
Indian man (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Where is the dictionary, "the body means Kurukṣetra, and Kurukṣetra means the body"?
Indian man (3): He has told, karma-kṣetra. Kuru-karma.
Prabhupāda: So you can drag some meaning. That is another thing. But Kurukṣetra is there still.
Mr. Pandiya: (to other guest) That is, sir, that Bhagavad-gītā As It Is.
Indian man (2): That is interpretation.
Prabhupāda: That is interpretation. Interpretation . . . here is a person in the legal way. Interpretation is required when you cannot understand. Is it not?
Indian man (2): Interpretation . . . yes.
Prabhupāda: But when the things are understood very clearly, why interpretation?
Indian man (2): It will, rather, confuse.
Indian man (2): Suppose I will drag this meaning . . .
Prabhupāda: This was protested by Caitanya Mahāprabhu vigorously. Why should you interpret?
Indian man (4): Yes. He told, the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam is the ultimate bhāṣya of prasthāna code, Vedānta-sūtra.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, anything, if you can understand very clearly, where is the question of interpretation?
Mr. Pandiya: That's true.
Prabhupāda: But it has become a fashion that, "If I can interpret in my own way, I become a big scholar." This is going on. If you have got your philosophy, you can speak. Everyone is free. Why you should take Bhagavad-gītā and distort it? Kṛṣṇa never meant that, "In future Gandhi will come," or "Dr. Radhakrishnan will come, and he will explain My ideas." What is this nonsense? Kṛṣṇa was a foolish person that He left it for Gandhi for distortion? He could not explain Himself that Kurukṣetra means this body? Gandhi has to interpret? Do you think it is right?
Mr. Pandiya: Not at all.
Prabhupāda: But this is going on. What right you have got to interpret? If Kurukṣetra means body, Kṛṣṇa would have explained that. Was He not learned? He left it for Gandhi, just see. He left it for Tilak. How harmful these interpretations are. That is going on. (end)