770127 - Conversation B - Jagannatha Puri
(Conversation with Two Indian Guests)
Prabhupāda: Politics means always fight between the kṣatriya and kṣatriya.
Indian man (1): Still, actually, with this nonviolence method, we could get them, I mean, get the Britishers out from India.
Prabhupāda: No, you are not . . . violence method. It is the Subhas Bose's organization.
Indian man (1): Said . . . that has got some . . .
Prabhupāda: No, it is circumstantial. Circumstantially means the Britishers were not at all concerned about the non . . . they knew that, "We . . ."
Indian man (1): Had to go.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. They knew that, "We are not going. So long the nonviolence is there, we are safe." They were occasionally calling Gandhi and patting him, "Sir, why you are doing this? Let us compromise," because he knew that, "So long nonviolence will continue, we are safe." But Subhas Bose's protest was that, "If you don't take to nonviolence, then these people are never going." That was the difference of opinion between Subhas Bose and . . . so when he was taking the Congress in hand, Gandhi became so angry that Subhas Bose, being elected President, Gandhi did not attend the Congress. So other workers, he requested Subhas Bose that, "You resign. Otherwise Gandhi will not." So he resigned. He done right. And then he thought that, "Unless I go out of India, I cannot do anything." Then he managed to go out of India, and Singapore, he . . . Indians, with their help and Hitler's intervention, he organized this INA. And when the Britishers saw that, "Now the soldiers are joining national movement, then we cannot rule over," then they decided, "Let us make some compromise, and as much possible, do harm. Divide this India, Pakistan and India, and go away." This is fact.
Indian man (1): Actually, I told you that before(?).
Prabhupāda: So they decided that because without soldiers and police, how they can rule over? And that, when they saw the soldiers are now joining Subhas Bose and they are planning to come to India from Imphal, so they saw, "Now it is impossible." They are politicians. They could understand. So therefore the conclusion is: It is not Gandhi's nonviolence. It is Subhas Bose's INA which compelled them to go away.
Indian man (1): Both had impact actually. Subhas Bose had a great impact because, you see . . .
Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean to say violent. When they were threatened with violence . . . they are not philosophers, that nonviolence will drive away. They are politicians. "You go on with your nonviolence movement." Gandhi did it for twenty years in Urban. What is that?
Pradyumna: Durban, South Africa?
Prabhupāda: Durban, Durban. No conclusion; the Indians are still segregated. I had been in South Africa. So from . . . what is that? Johannesburg. Johannesburg city, that Indian quarter, at least ten to fifteen miles away in a jungle. And there they have kept slaughterhouse.
Indian man (1): Oh, near the Indian quarters.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And Indians, whole night they are hearing the screaming of the animals. Means purposefully they have created this disturbance. And Indians have got some sentiment of cow-killing. And that screaming is going on whole night.
Indian man (1): Whole night. (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: So that they may go away. This policy is still going on.
Indian man (1): Ācchā? South Africa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And any quarter, the Indians, they organize, and they say, "You go away now, that quarter." Still going on.
Indian man (1): Still going on. (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: This is the position of Indian. So that part, Gandhi's movement there, that was a failure. No concession was given, still now. So these people, they don't care about this nonviolence, satyāgraha.
Indian man (1): But still, in America Martin Luther King saw nonviolence so greatly.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) That is also failure.
Pradyumna: I think they were more scared of the violence.
Pradyumna: The blacks started groups in terrorism.
Prabhupāda: And then, then . . . (Bengali) It may be taken as a . . . who cares?
Indian man (1): This nonviolence is just put in the head of the others.
Prabhupāda: No, nobody cares for this non . . . (break) . . . that is not the India has no kṣatriya spirit. Very good kṣatriya spirit. But it was not organized. That is the difference of opinion between Gandhi and Subhas. He wanted to organize it.
Indian man (1): That's . . . but Gandhiji knew actually it's not possible to organize this violence in India, because the people are not of that nature.
Prabhupāda: No, everything has got. Just like Subhas Bose organized outside.
Indian man (1): Subhas Bose was a very great organizer and a great politician.
Prabhupāda: He organized. He made compromise, some he made, this Hitler and Tojo, that "Whoever, Indian soldiers surrendered, you . . ."
Indian man (1): They should go to INA.
Prabhupāda: INA. He made this . . . and the soldiers were voluntarily surrendering.
Indian man (1): (Prabhupāda chuckling) Ah, many. No, Subhas was . . . had got a great personality.
Prabhupāda: When the Britishers saw, "Now the soldiers are coming in national movement. There is no hope. Better break this and go peacefully so that our business may not be disturbed, our relation may not be disturbed. Make a Commonwealth and so on, so on, hodgepodge. And do as much harm as possible dividing Pakistan and Hindustan, all the food in Pakistan, East Bengal and West Pakistan, gehun (wheat) and rice." And this Hindustan in starvation, because they were getting gehun from Punjab and rice from East Bengal, and that is stopped. They very clever. Greatest harm they did. And in politics made in such a way that these two people, Hindustan and Pakistan, always fight. So they have gained. You have not gained. Gandhi wanted Hindu-Muslim unity. They made so bitter relationship that they will perpetually fight. That is Gandhi's qualification. They are so great diplomats that, "This man wants Hindu-Muslim unity, so make such arrangement that this . . . they will fight continuous. And give all the food to the Pakistani, so they will starve. Let them eat coal." The Hindustan has got coal mine. "So they will suffer for industrial supply, and they will supply for food. And they will fight." British diplomats are very clever. Gandhi even offered that, "Don't divide India. You better give it to Jinnah." But this commission, this Patita Lalan, "No, no," said: "It is . . . otherwise, there will be conflagration of always fight. Let it be settled." Gandhi went to this point that, "If you think that without division India will be chaos, so you better give it to Jinnah in the hand. Don't give it to me." But they wanted division.
Indian man (1): That is a British policy.
Prabhupāda: They wanted this division.
Pradyumna: Gandhi was very much against division.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Division means that what remains India?
Pradyumna: Well on economic grounds also . . .
Prabhupāda: Formerly India was India, Burma, Ceylon. They never divided, divided. They wanted that, "Divide, divide, divide, and let this rascal have a small plot of land."
Indian man (1): No, even they made it, even all the states, they made independent.
Prabhupāda: Yes, to make their choice, "You can join either Pakistan or India."
Indian man (1): Or remain independent also.
Prabhupāda: They wanted to make nil India. The Hyderabad state was given choice. Kashmir was given choice, whichever—Hindustan or Pakistan. That is still going on, the Kashmir.
Indian man (1): Even in Orissa, small states just like Mayurbhanj and Dhenkanal also, they were independent before that time, till Sardar Patel came in and asked them to . . .
Prabhupāda: Simply divide, divide, divide. Divide and rule, and divide and break. They have done always like that.
Indian man (1): That proviso was the written rule. They made completely . . . without that they cannot do it actually. They made such a big empire, they cannot do actually without divide-and-rule policy.
Prabhupāda: Bheda, bheda, bheda policy. This is called sandhyaṁ bheda. There are four policies.
Indian man (1): That is Cāṇakya's nīti also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is bheda policy. That is going on in politics.
Indian man (1): Politics. In America (Bengali) movement (Bengali) government support?
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Government nahī; public.
Indian man (1): (Bengali with Prabhupāda) Government support?
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) . . . slaughter industry . . . (Bengali) . . . cigarette factory . . . (Bengali). Theoretically, if our principles are adopted by the American people in general, as my disciples have done, then their whole industrial structure will be broken.
Indian man (1): Not actually. Don't affect so much because all are not going to be . . . even in India it is not.
Prabhupāda: This is one thing. This is one thing, that . . . no, they are taking seriously. And another thing is that if the public opinion becomes in favor of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then they will get vote and they'll capture government, because it is republic. That is another point, another. The most important point is: these boys who come to me, they forget forever their families or father, mother. No family. That is their great shock.
Indian man (2): No, what is that? That is nothing. We see . . .
Prabhupāda: No, no. This is the principle, why they are opposing it. They are not these transcendental meditator, that here going and coming home, and they are doing all same, because they have no restriction. But my students, as soon as they come to this, they are not . . . no more going home. They will not touch any food, yes, because they have seen there is a . . . (indistinct) . . .
Indian man (1): (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Practically begin. Any boy who comes to me, he's lost forever to his family. In other religion there is no such thing.
Indian man (2): No, they go back again and . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. Go back, they do everything. They remain the same thing, simply rubberstamp. That's all. (Bengali) . . . an actual fact. So they are seeing it is dangerous. They say: "It is epidemic. Brainwash." (Bengali) . . . that once gone, this camp, Hare Kṛṣṇa camp, never return. Finished. (Bengali) . . . compromise nahī . . . (Bengali with guest) Individually, family-wise, when the boy goes, he's gone forever. (Bengali with guest) Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvaṁ (SB 5.5.1) (Bengali) Hari-śauri! (Bengali with guest) (break) Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66).
Indian man (1): But without that, it is just like Hindu questions.
Prabhupāda: They go to other temples also.
Indian man (1): Many.
Prabhupāda: But pure Vaiṣṇava, they worship only Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (1): That's all right.
Prabhupāda: But the Hindu dharma, they worship anyone—Gaṇeśa, Devī, and Lord Śiva and Sūrya. At least Śaṅkarācārya limited within these five. Now their descendants, they say: "If you worship stool, that is also God." They say like that. You know that? Eh?
Indian man (1): (Bengali)
Pradyumna: Yeah, I've heard that.
Prabhupāda: They have gone so down, that "Even with your faith if you worship stool, that is God realization."
Indian man (1): (Bengali with Prabhupāda)
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Just become Prahlāda Mahārāja. Just go, persecution like Prahlāda Mahārāja. Then you talk of. You are not Prahlāda Mahārāja. You are ordinary person. Your business is mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Kṛṣṇa never said, "He Prahlāda Mahārāja, God kambha(?), so you also worship kambha." Never said, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekam. That is Gītā.
Indian man (1): That's right, but Kṛṣṇa . . .
Prabhupāda: But Prahlāda Mahārāja never worshiped kambha.
Indian man (1): No, never.
Prabhupāda: But he knew that Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. So that vision is possible by Kṛṣṇa . . . Prahlāda Mahārāja, not by you or me.
Indian man (1): No, that is, mean . . . Kṛṣṇa is everywhere.
Prabhupāda: We cannot bring Prahlāda Mahārāja in ordinary things.
Indian man (1): No, that's true. That theory is: Kṛṣṇa is everywhere.
Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja underwent so much persecution. He was never disturbed, because he was confident that, "Kṛṣṇa will give me protection. Never mind." That is another position. Mahā-bhāgavata. We are kaniṣṭha-adhikārīs. We have to worship Deity.
- arcāyām eva haraye
- pūjāṁ yaḥ śraddhayehate
- na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu
- sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ
- (SB 11.2.47)
We are in the prākṛta stage. We cannot go to the stage of Prahlāda Mahārāja.
Indian man (1): No, that is very difficult. That is very, very difficult.
Prabhupāda: Not difficult, but it requires elevation. So we should not imitate.
Indian man (1): No, I mean desires . . . just like your idol worship. Idol worship is not actually fruitless or anything. It's only to imagine God in it and just to have the concentration.
Prabhupāda: No, but idol worship is . . . these atheists, they say "idol worship," but we do not say. The . . . here is Sākṣi-Gopāla. You know the story, Sākṣi-Gopāla? Two brāhmins? So he never saw that He is idol. He saw Kṛṣṇa. So he said: "Kṛṣṇa, before You this man has promised. Now he's now declining. So please come and give witness." And that is Sākṣi-Gopāla. So for a devotee, no. There is no idol.
Indian man (1): No idol. No, that idol is actually, they are planned to . . .
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is actually happened. The so-called idol, He went to be witness. He came from Vṛndāvana to Cuttack. So "idol worship" is they say. But devotee . . . just like people are coming by thousands to see Jagannātha. Do they come to see idol? Wooden Jagannātha? They come to see real Jagannātha, Bhagavān Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise why they will spend so much money and take so much trouble and come here? The atheists may say, "How foolish they are. They are coming here to see a wooden figure, and spending so much money." That is the statement of the atheist. But a devotee comes to see "Kṛṣṇa is here." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw—immediately fainted. So there are two visions.
Indian man (1): Just like viśva-rūpa it is . . .
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is forbidden: arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ (Padma Purāṇa). So the atheist class, they see, "Here is a wooden . . . oh, what is the Jagannātha made of? Wood or stone?" They're seeing wood and stone. Similarly, Vaiṣṇavas also they're seeing "a American," "European." They are blind. They have no capacity to . . . therefore śāstra says: "Don't think like that, nārakī. If you think like that, then you become hellish." Because he has no vision, he's warned only that, "Don't do this. It is very dangerous." Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. "Don't do it." Because he cannot see as it is, he has not elevation, but he is warned, "Don't think like that." Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, he has no such vision. Therefore he's warned, "Do not do this." Just like a child. He does not know that to touch fire is dangerous. He's warned, "Do not do it. It will be . . ." So similarly, this is warning: "Don't do this." Therefore śāstra is there. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate (BG 16.23): "Without śāstra, if one does anything," na sa siddhim avāpno . . . "he'll never be perfect." So śāstra-vidhi we have to follow. Then we come to perfection. (aside) Hmm. So that is I think scorching heat.
Hari-śauri: It's fairly hot, yes.
Prabhupāda: So better you . . . so give him little prasādam. So I am very glad to see you. (Bengali)
Indian man (1): We're very glad actually. We're very obliged and very grateful to have your darśana.
Prabhupāda: You kindly . . . you are little interested. Organize public opinion, "Why these people are doing this injustice?"
Indian man (1): No, that I'll do. (end)