770128 - Conversation A - Bhuvanesvara
Pṛthu-putra: . . . to show me. They were telling me that, "You are going to see the representative of God." And when I came to that vision, I saw the person. At that time I didn't know who was. But I had some doubts in my mind, and I was thinking, "Oh, that's probably another kind of, you know, some kind of propaganda." This was all in the dream. But when I came to that person sitting on the elevated seat in that forest, surrounded by many, many devotees, that person looked at me and proved to me that he was the representative of God. But after, I forgot. Maybe one year or something like this. One or two years after . . .
Prabhupāda: So there is no doubt about it that I am the representative of God.
Pṛthu-putra: Yes. But when I was . . .
Prabhupāda: Either you dream or not dream, I claim.
Pṛthu-putra: Yes. But the thing which was confirming, when I saw you the first time in Amsterdam, you were the same person that I saw in my dream that this one or two years previously.
Prabhupāda: That . . . you have read Caitanya-caritāmṛta?
Pṛthu-putra: Yes, I have read this.
Prabhupāda: Guru-tattva. Guru-tattva. So there it is clearly said . . .
Pṛthu-putra: Yes, it is clearly explained.
Prabhupāda: . . . that guru is the manifestation of God. So it is confirmed in the śāstra. And all the ācāryas accept it. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ.
Satsvarūpa: But is it possible to also learn spiritual truths from this . . . from representatives on the subtle plane?
Prabhupāda: There is no question of subtle plane. You are on the gross plane. You first of all study gross things, and subtle, we shall see later on.
Pṛthu-putra: Of course, that was never a doubt. That's just the way I came in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And when I saw you . . .
Prabhupāda: So the guru is the representative of God. That's all right. Then what is your misunderstanding?
Pṛthu-putra: So then after I had some other things. For example, when I went to Egypt, in these pyramids one day I had some kind of contact on the subtle plane with persons who were supposed to live inside of the pyramids, and they gave me some kind of instructions.
Prabhupāda: Inside of the pyramid?
Pṛthu-putra: Yes. That wasn't in the dream. But people, they were quite clear.
Prabhupāda: These are just like we know gold and we know mountain . . .
Prabhupāda: . . . and sometimes we mix together and we see golden mountain. So in dream we see like that. We have got hundreds and thousands of experiences in our this life and past life. They are all stocked there, and they can sometimes get like a bubbles. You have seen the bubbles come out? It is like that. We should not give much importance to these things. But it is a fact that bona fide spiritual master is bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa. That's a fact. So there is no question of subtle or gross. It is a fact. That's all right.
Satsvarūpa: But we've been discussing, and Pṛthu-putra Mahārāja is saying that some devotees are very sensitive about thinking that they're having these experiences. And if we tell them, "Ignore this. It's not important," that will not be good for them, because they are definitely feeling visits from persons from another plane, and if you simply tell them, "No . . ."
Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. You say that, "You are fortunate that you're having, but do your business." That's all.
Pṛthu-putra: They want to feel satisfaction from Kṛṣṇa consciousness point of view.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Sometimes it may be fact. There is no wonder. But we have to proceed with the figure. If I dream that I am getting one lakh of rupees, so it is better if I get five rupees in figure. Is that all right?
Prabhupāda: Simply dreaming I am getting one lakh of rupees, that is good, or actually, if you get five rupees, that is good? Which is good?
Pṛthu-putra: To get the actual five rupees.
Prabhupāda: So don't depend on the subtle thing. See practically what you are getting.
Satsvarūpa: What I thought was most dangerous is that . . .
Prabhupāda: Most dangerous . . . those who are neophytes, they will be always in danger.
Satsvarūpa: Sometimes these . . .
Prabhupāda: Always in danger, because they are neophytes. Just like a child is always in danger. So how you can save them? He's always in danger. So as far as possible, let us try. He's going to the fire. He's going to the water. He's going to the animal. He's eating some poison. So always in danger. That childish age is dangerous. Therefore mother takes care. Danger is already there because he's neophyte, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. Therefore we have to abide by the injunction of the śāstra and guided by guru. That's all. That is our secure position. And otherwise danger always.
Pṛthu-putra: One boy in Paris, he had a visit . . .
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, this is the position. Those who are neophyte, they are always in danger. Therefore their duty is to be guided by sādhu-śāstra-guru. That's all. That is our . . .
Pṛthu-putra: This is the reason why some of these people . . .
Prabhupāda: Now, I'll say from my practical life . . . it is not pride. Actually everyone knows that my Guru Mahārāja had thousands of disciples. So out of thousands of disciples, practically I am little successful. That everyone knows. Why? Because I firmly believed in the words of my guru. That's all. This is the . . . there may be many other Godbrother, maybe very learned and very advanced, whatever it may be, favored, and . . . everyone claims that, "I am the most favorite." And practical point of view . . . so I think sometimes that "Why this wonderful thing has happened to me?" So I search out. I search out only that I cent percent believe on the words of my spiritual . . . that's all, nothing else. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya, āra nā koriho mane āśā. Don't think of any nonsense. Simply execute what your guru has said. That is success. You are daily singing, guru-mukha-padma-vākya. You know the meaning?
Pṛthu-putra: Yes. Cittete koriyā aikya, āra nā koriho mane āśā.
Prabhupāda: This is the instruction. And the child decides it that, "Whatever my parent says, that's all I shall do. I shall do nothing," then he's safe.
Satsvarūpa: "My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth."
Prabhupāda: Then he's safe. And as soon as he manufactures—finished. So don't do it. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau, tasyaite kathitā . . . (ŚU 6.23). This is the secret of spiritual success.
Satsvarūpa: So these beings . . .
Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, there are so many dangerous. All these bābājīs, they are . . . "Oh, I am not going out of Vṛndāvana." But he has got connection with so many women. So what is the use? Have you experience of this? He's attached to women and doing all sinful activities in Vṛndāvana, and he's a devotee. "He cannot go out of Vṛndāvana." This is going on, manufacturing biḍi, smoking biḍi, in the dress of Rūpa Gosvāmī—loincloth, big tilaka, kaṇṭhi. And what he's doing? Biḍi-making. Have you seen?
Pṛthu-putra: I have seen some of them doing this, yes.
Prabhupāda: Not all of them. But they are also claiming they're on the stage of Rūpa Gosvāmī. And we are preaching—we are lower stage. That is their opinion. We are preaching all over the world; we are in the lower stage.
Pṛthu-putra: This is what the . . . (indistinct) . . . say.
Prabhupāda: And because he has imitated the dress of Rūpa Gosvāmī, mālā, tilaka, and he's manufacturing biḍi—he's higher. This is going on.
Pṛthu-putra: Oh, I see.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has condemned these rascals—that kali-celā, "the disciple of Kali." Ei ota eka kali-celā: "Here is a disciple of Kali." Who? Nāke tilaka galāi mālā. And sahajiyā bhajana kache mamu, saṅge lana pare bala. He has tilaka and mālā, and sahajiyā, with other girls he's making parakīyā-rasa-bhajana. Kali-celā. Ei ota eka kali-celā. So we have to guided by our predecessor ācāryas. Then we shall be saved. Otherwise we are condemned.
Pṛthu-putra: So when certain boys experience difficulties and they come to . . . because . . .
Prabhupāda: What difficulty? What is the difficulty?
Pṛthu-putra: Well, for example . . .
Prabhupāda: We have got everything clearly stated, that we observe these regulative principle, chant minimum sixteen rounds and act as far as possible for the service of the Lord. Where is the difficulty?
Pṛthu-putra: Maybe the realization may not be there.
Prabhupāda: What is that realization? This is the prescribed duty. So there is no question of realization. You must do it.
Pṛthu-putra: Yes. They must do; and they do also. They also do it.
Prabhupāda: Then where is the doubt? "Let me go on with my duty." That's all. "Why I shall be disturbed by so many things? Let me see whether I am discharging my duties properly." That's all.
Pṛthu-putra: That is what should be told to them.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He may be very fortunate that he's dreaming. "All right, keep aside. Do your duty. You are very fortunate, but don't bother now. First of all be strong and follow." Otherwise ichre pākā. Ichre pākā. Ichre you know?
Prabhupāda: Stunted jackfruit.
Pṛthu-putra: Ah, yes. Jackfruit.
Prabhupāda: Jackfruit becomes so big, but one fruit, it is so small and . . . (indistinct) . . . and it has become ripened. So it has no taste, neither it can be used for cooking—useless. Ichre pākā. A small fruit ripen, it is useless, neither for this person nor for that. So they are called in Bengali ichre pākā. Do your duty. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā . . . āra nā koriho. That is bhajana. And as soon as he deviates—yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. He is finished. That has happened to Nitāi. Pākā. So what these people will do? It is the effect of bad association. That's all.
Pṛthu-putra: But in that particular thing there is no doubt . . .
Prabhupāda: Also Caitanya Mahāprabhu has decided . . . that decidedly given His version, asat-saṅga-tyāga ei vaiṣṇava-ācāra (CC Madhya 22.87): "A Vaiṣṇava, his first business is to give up the company of undesirable elements, asat." So who is undesirable element? Now, asat eka strī-saṅgī, who is attached with woman, and kṛṣṇa-abhakta. So as soon as you mix with these so-called bābājīs, bhajana, bhajanānandīs and mixes with three dozen women, you are fallen. Immediately. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. Asat eka strī-saṅgī. And regularly they are parakīyā-rasa. Their theory is that you have to select one woman who is not your bona fide wife. Parakīyā. She must be other's wife or outsider. And with her you may do . . . you become Kṛṣṇa, and she becomes Rādhārāṇī. Then you become happy. This is going on. Do you know that?
Pṛthu-putra: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: These rascals are guiding. And Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, asat-saṅga-tyāga ei vaiṣṇava: "First of all you have to give up the undesirable company of these rascals." They will show like that in a very advanced . . . and vairāgya and taking three times bath and everything, but they have got connection with at least three, four woman. This is their bhajana. Regularly they will lie down with woman. That's a daily program. I know all these things. That is their bhajana. So be careful of these rascals.
Pṛthu-putra: Oh, we haven't come in contact with any of these rascals.
Prabhupāda: No, this Nitāi and others, they have . . .
Satsvarūpa: You're not associated with Rādhā-kuṇḍa and that . . .
Pṛthu-putra: Oh, no. That was long time ago. Anyway, I was just staying in one place and didn't listen to anyone.
Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇadāsa Bābājī, he's of the same type. Not only he; mostly. Because their theory is this, to pick up some woman who is not your wife—she must be parakīyā, other's wife—and making Rādhārāṇī, and you become Kṛṣṇa, and this is parakīyā . . . and pointed out by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, he's a kali-celā. Ei ota eka kali-celā, nāke tilaka galāi mālā, and sahajiyā bhajana kache mamur saṅge lana pare bala. This is . . . it's not new thing. It is coming since a long time. Otherwise how Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura . . . he's our like grandfather.
Satsvarūpa: This discussion with Pṛthu-putra Mahārāja and the devotees in Europe doesn't so much concern those bābājīs as this business of the . . . when something is visited, when you have some . . . a visitation from the subtle plane, whether to take it as important or not. But you've already explained the position: to go on with your duty and not consider the message very important. Sometimes they speak of . . .
Prabhupāda: No, suppose you have seen that a gold mountain has come in your possession. Will you be satisfied with that?
Prabhupāda: So this is like that. This is like that.
Pṛthu-putra: But in the case of Adhikaraṇa, person came as a fact.
Satsvarūpa: But this was . . . they feel this was more factual. An actual person came . . . a person . . .
Prabhupāda: How it is factual? Where is their golden mountain?
Pṛthu-putra: It's . . . you have seen gold, and you have seen mountain, and then the association means golden mountain in a dream . . .
Prabhupāda: It is like that.
Pṛthu-putra: . . . according to your desire.
Prabhupāda: It is like that.
Pṛthu-putra: This is psychological . . .
Pṛthu-putra: . . . conclusion.
Pṛthu-putra: But an actual person came one day to the temple to a boy.
Prabhupāda: The same, same thing. Where is that actual person?
Pṛthu-putra: Well, it was a person, an old lady who come like this, astrologer
Prabhupāda: Ordinar . . . he came eye to eye? Or dream?
Pṛthu-putra: Yes, a person came, person.
Satsvarūpa: No. They're saying it's not a dream state but actual manifestation.
Pṛthu-putra: Not a dream. Came to the temple.
Satsvarūpa: Just like a demigod comes, they are being visited by . . .
Prabhupāda: But he only visited? Nobody else?
Pṛthu-putra: No. Many devotees could see that person coming to the temple, but she spoke to only one, to Adhikaraṇa.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, very good. But do your duty. If you get some such person, devatā, "Welcome, but I must do my own duty."
Pṛthu-putra: But they gave similar message, so that means that message was . . . they were informing that some big disturbances will come in this world and . . .
Prabhupāda: Let them come. What is there? Nārāyaṇa-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati (SB 6.17.28). If you are actually devotee . . .
Pṛthu-putra: A devotee's not afraid of going anywhere.
Prabhupāda: So why you are discussing them? Let whatever calamity may come, let come.
Pṛthu-putra: The devotees accept this point.
Satsvarūpa: In other words, they are taking information from these persons aside from your books.
Satsvarūpa: But everything . . . we should be satisfied.
Prabhupāda: That means he is trying to deviate from the path chalked out by their spiritual master.
Pṛthu-putra: No. On the opposite way: they try to learn more about the books because they feel they have to be spiritual teacher of the future. That is the opposite way.
Prabhupāda: That's all right . . .
Pṛthu-putra: They don't go away from Śrīla Prabhupāda's teaching. On the opposite, we try to learn more and to be more qualified in order to teach spiritually on the case . . .
Prabhupāda: But no, no . . . that, that . . . they're over intelligent. Just like Nitāi has become over intelligent. "Please bless me I may find out a bona fide guru." He has written me.
Pṛthu-putra: (laughs) That's craziness.
Prabhupāda: He has written me that. He is asking my blessing to find out another bona fide guru. Such a rascal he is. If his present guru is not bona fide, why he's asking blessing from him? Such a rascal. He has written me.
Pṛthu-putra: This is nonsense proposition.
Prabhupāda: No, you say. But he is such a learned, overlearned, he's asking somebody blessing who is not bona fide to find out bona fide. Just see his position. If you are seeking a bona fide spiritual master, why you asking the blessing of non–bona fide? (laughs)
Pṛthu-putra: (laughs) This is not serious.
Prabhupāda: I could simply laugh, that's all, that such a rascal . . . he was doing some tangible service, editing work. He left everything. Now he's going to find out bona fide spiritual . . . for bhajanānanda. Therefore, asat-saṅga-tyāgī ei vaiṣṇava. The first thing is . . . it is enunciated by . . . whether this man is attached to woman? Then finish; all bona fide finish. As soon as one is attached to woman, either legal or illegal, his all qualification finished. Asat eka strī-saṅgī. And these rascals have derived meaning that "One who has one strī only, he's asat. One who has more than one strī, he's sat." They have interpreted like that. Asat eka strī-saṅgī. Kṛṣṇa mean . . . number one asat is strī-saṅgī, and number two asat is who is not devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is the meaning. But they have taken, eka strī-saṅgī: "One who keeps only one woman, he's asat. One who keeps more than one woman, he is sat. So we are keeping more than one woman." This is going on.
Satsvarūpa: In Europe, Bhagavān dāsa . . . (break)
Pṛthu-putra: . . . no, but from what I . . .
Prabhupāda: Why you become authority of understanding? That is not good.
Pṛthu-putra: Because I had these experiences, and they don't me deviated from studying . . .
Prabhupāda: That is not experience. That is only dream. That is not experience. Nobody has seen. Somebody came, he . . . this only saw. And there are other devotees, they could not see. He is so advanced, only he could see. This is bogus. This is bogus.
Pṛthu-putra: So many people they came, seeing things.
Prabhupāda: They came. Nobody could see, only he could see. This is bogus. You should never encourage it. This is bogus, that's all. If somebody comes, everyone will see. And if I see only, nobody can see . . . this is bogus. Don't encourage these bogus things.
Pṛthu-putra: I'm not encouraging these things.
Prabhupāda: "Only he could see." He's so advanced, his eyes are only fit to see that and nobody, others. That is bogus. Others have also eyes. But "Oh, he has got transcendental eyes."
Pṛthu-putra: No, it wasn't like this. It's not seen like this. It's not a question of transcendental eyes.
Prabhupāda: That is bogus. Not only he; there are many. They'll simply repeat that. There are many. They come . . . many devotees, our Life Members, big, big men, they come, "Swāmījī, I experienced like this. Some man came. Some boy came." Means real purpose is that he wants to prove that he is already connected with higher planetary system. I have got many experiences. They say like that.
Pṛthu-putra: Yes. I have met also Life Members saying things like this recently here.
Prabhupāda: So simply hear them. That's all. One big barrister, he was my friend; he is dead—M. C. Chatterji. He's a very big barrister. He used to charge sixteen thousand rupees for one appearance. So he was stating about when . . . that he came to Vṛndāvana, and he met one boy, and "He asked me some sweets, I gave Him sweet. Later on, when I was coming back to Delhi, I saw that boy was running on the train." He said. Such a big barrister, he said like that. "Oh, He was so . . ." Posturing like this. What can I say? "Kṛṣṇa as cowherd boy was running after you in the train?" This is going on. Another friend's wife, she came to Jagannātha Purī. So Jagannātha Purī, those who are rich men, they are allowed to go near the Jagannātha. So that lady said that, "While I was circumambulating, Jagannātha was snatching my cloth." Jagannātha became so much attached with that blackish woman that He began to snatch his cloth. So many stories I know. So what can be said? "Why did you not remain with Jagannātha? Why you came back?" This is going on. So I have got experience of many such stories. Kṛṣṇa as cowherd boy was running with his train—I have to take. And Jagannātha was snatching her cloth. They are very poisonous things. I was never fortunate with such incidences. I am simply trying to carry out the order of my Guru Mahārāja. That's all.
Pṛthu-putra: It was never such story as people having contact with Kṛṣṇa, anything like this. That never went on. That was never going on.
Satsvarūpa: I asked why these visitations are not mentioned in your books, people from the subtle plane. And one answer I was given is that if you wrote this in your books, then too many devotees would try to contact these persons; but that you do approve of it, but you don't want to put it in your books. But I thought, no, you put everything in your books.
Pṛthu-putra: Yes. Everything is in the books.
Satsvarūpa: These are the things I heard.
Prabhupāda: Tell them this, that "Whatever it may be, you do your duty. That's all."
Pṛthu-putra: That's clear, very clear.
Prabhupāda: These sahajiyās will come out of so many devotees. What can be done? From my Guru Mahārāja's disciples, so many sahajiyās came. These are called sahajiyās. Very easily they capture thing. So my Guru Mahārāja used to say: "When my disciples will be sahajiyā, it will be more dangerous." He used to say like that. Take things very easily. You know that Puruṣottama, supposed to be my Godbrother?
Prabhupāda: You don't know?
Pṛthu-putra: In Māyāpur?
Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana.
Pṛthu-putra: In Vṛndāvana. Ah, yes. Puruṣottama, yes. I saw him once.
Prabhupāda: He has poisoned this Nitāi.
Pṛthu-putra: Oh. Is it because we have the desire coming in contact with such person that we contact them, like Nitāi contacting that Puruṣottama?
Prabhupāda: You may not desire, but if you are not strong, you'll be misled by these rascals. But if we follow this instruction, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, āra nā koriho mane āśā, oh, then you become strong. Then you will remain strong. Our bhakti line is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). We should be completely zero of our material desires. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam. Śūnyam means zero. (pause) So our classes are not held here?
Satsvarūpa: Bhāgavatam class in the morning?
Prabhupāda: Then? This is not good. So many devotees, and there is no class. Where they have gone now?
Satsvarūpa: Gargamuni and Gurukṛpā Mahārāja have gone to a place to look for some land for a possible temple. I'm trying to remember the place. They say it's the place where Lord Caitanya was caught in the net by the fisherman. It is between . . .
Satsvarūpa: Karanak. Between here and Purī. He said maybe there is some likely sites there, and they went to look.
Prabhupāda: Karanak is near Purī?
Satsvarūpa: It's near here.
Prabhupāda: But He was caught in the net in Purī, not . . .
Pṛthu-putra: Karanak is not so near Purī, because Bhuvaneśvara is like this, Purī is like this, and Karanak is situated like this.
Satsvarūpa: That's where they're going, Karanak. They said it is somehow is a holy place.
Prabhupāda: Karanak is a holy place. That I know.
Satsvarūpa: But I will arrange with Gaura-Govinda Mahārāja that we should have classes every morning.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, "Idle brain, devil's workshop." You should not remain idle. Either chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or read books, have class. This is not good.
Satsvarūpa: Pṛthu-putra Mahārāja is taking a party today to that man's house in the village.
Prabhupāda: Which man?
Satsvarūpa: That man who was here last night. He's invited the devotees there at one o'clock.
Prabhupāda: Village means here.
Pṛthu-putra: Yes, this place.
Prabhupāda: How many men?
Pṛthu-putra: We will be about ten.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. He has agreed to . . .?
Pṛthu-putra: Yes, he has agreed.
Prabhupāda: Ask him to have tilaka always.
Pṛthu-putra: That, that boy who came.
Prabhupāda: No, that man who came. Ask that . . .
Pṛthu-putra: To wears always tilaka. He has the kaṇṭhi-mālā, but I don't . . .
Prabhupāda: No tilaka.
Pṛthu-putra: No tilaka.
Satsvarūpa: He does not wear tilaka.
Prabhupāda: So he must have tilaka. You ask him, "First of all have tilaka." You see him. Otherwise we'll not take.
Satsvarūpa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Jaya. (end)