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770218 - Conversation D - Mayapur

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770218R4-MAYAPUR - February 18, 1977 - 56:16 Minutes

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . that the government is actually . . . it is not the government, but there are various individuals within the government. In other words, it is not the entire government. Just like in this country it is much more of a dictatorial type government. In America what is happening is that because these deprogrammers . . . what they are doing is called lobbying. They go to Congress, they go to the House of Representatives. They have all of their members write letters to their local state senators, to the local House of Representatives . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm. They influence.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And then they get these local men to come together in groups and try to pass laws. So it's not simply that the . . . but there is more and more now a feeling amongst the government members towards . . . favorable to the deprogrammers and against the cults on account of the cheating nature of the other cults. So there's definitely . . .

Prabhupāda: They should be.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It's definitely . . . the sentiment is definitely against us and for the deprogrammers amongst government leaders. It's not in our favor. There's no doubt about it. The courts are definitely against us, and the government is also. It's serious.

Prabhupāda: So what can we do?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think we have to do exactly what what we are doing.

Prabhupāda: That is . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More vigorously.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's it. And the Hyderabad report, that English education, they are inclined. There are so many here. That's not very good idea. As soon as they get English education . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll leave. So we should not encourage that at all. I think it's different than here.

Prabhupāda: No, their attention should be in chanting. And produce their own food, agriculture. And as soon as they get English education, then . . . not "as soon as," but not all of them are fit for being educated. It is not possible. They are śūdra class of men. What he will be educated? Śūdra, vaiśya, they should learn how to plow, how to produce food. They are thinking otherwise, that "Plowing is great labor. If we educate our boys in English, they can go to the city. Immediately they get some . . ."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Get more money, work less."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually it is not the position, but they're thinking like that. Everyone wants to work less and get more money. That is Marshall's theory of economic impetus. From Germany also there is a bad report.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Germany bad report. Brazil. Not Brazil . . .

Prabhupāda: Argentina.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Argentina. And now Caracas, they're investigating the accounts, auditing the accounts.

Prabhupāda: Why they are against the book?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because . . . they're not against the books. They're against the money, the huge money that they see the books are getting. They're not even against the books. They're against the process of collecting money. Books, they don't care one way or the other, but the fact that we're collecting so much money, that is surprising them.

Hari-śauri: They think we're just going on the street begging money and then living nice life.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: See at first . . . at first they don't take us very seriously. They think, "Well, a few beggars." But then they start to see one skyscraper . . .

Prabhupāda: All beggars. (laughs)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, poor beggars, right. And then a skyscraper full of beggars, and then they realize, "How they purchased a skyscraper? These people are collecting a lot of money."

Prabhupāda: We want that they should have necessaries without any difficulty and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That they do not like. They want people to be industrialists, working very hard in the factory.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Hari-śauri: They're envious because they're struggling for their own existence, and they don't like to see us not struggle.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Envious. But if we develop this community project, farm, they cannot do anything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they appreciate this farm projects.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Why shall I work? I am working for my own . . . for the village."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They like that. They would also . . . probably they would respect if we did some businesses, some of our members.

Prabhupāda: We can do. Manager is there.

Hari-śauri: Spiritual Sky.

Prabhupāda: When we have got excess produce, either milk or grain or anything, we can sell that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That we won't have, though. The kind of businesses we do are not kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). It's more or less businesses of incense business, jewelry business. We don't have extra milk products or grains, not very much.

Prabhupāda: So what is the harm if we do jewelry business?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Providing the men do not become contaminated, then there's no harm.

Prabhupāda: That is in his hand. Why he should be contaminated?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Shouldn't, but somehow our . . . you once said to me that "You Americans are already business-minded, so . . ."

Prabhupāda: Well, business-minded is not bad, but contamination is bad.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: If I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and do business, what is the harm? Where is wrong?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: See, the trouble is that when you do book distribution, it's easier to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is for that purpose.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But when you sell jewelry, it's harder to remember Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And our . . . we are not so advanced yet.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the defect. Otherwise, if I am attracted Hare Kṛṣṇa, for my livelihood I can do anything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anything, yes. I've seen in India, many of our members, they are able to do their pūjā in the morning with an undisturbed mind and then do business.

Prabhupāda: Yes. All Marwaris do that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Be ruthless as anything.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are ruthless as anything during the day . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . and they're very humble . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . in their pūjā. But our men, if they are ruthless during the day . . .

Prabhupāda: My father was doing business, and he was a great devotee.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And you were also doing business during . . . when you were . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, up to one o'clock, two o'clock, he was engaged only with his pūjā, my father. He was going late, at twelve o'clock, to bed. Then he was to . . . he used to rise little late, at about seven, eight. Then taking bath, sometimes purchasing. Then from ten o'clock to one o'clock he was engaged in pūjā. Then he would take his lunch and go to business. And in the business shop he was taking little rest for one hour. And he'd come from business at ten o'clock at night, and then again pūjā. Regularly. Actually his business was pūjā. For livelihood he was . . .

Hari-śauri: Just doing some business.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: We were sleeping, father was doing ārati—"ding-ding-ding-ding-ding."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You heard the bell.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Then he would take his night dinner and—not dinner. Some purīs or paraṭā. He was also fond of this puffed rice. In later age he was simply taking puffed rice and milk. So, anyway, pūjā was his main business.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I found that our devotees who engage in business, they become a little spiritually weakened because we're not that advanced yet.

Prabhupāda: No, cent percent engagement in, that is hamper. There is no doubt. But to do business as a householder is not bad.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And practically, the position that our Society is coming into now, I think it's actually . . . we should do it, because it will give our Society a more balanced appearance. Otherwise they think everyone is beggar. But at least if they see that the brahmacārīs' business is begging . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like this Gauḍīya Maṭha has become. They have no other way of income except begging in different way. Now they have taken to this business, parikramā. They earn something, lump sum, by calling men to parikramā, and they pay, say, two hundred rupees. Out of, a hundred rupees they save, minimum, and that is their whole year's livelihood.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is not a good business.

Prabhupāda: They are . . . they have come because they have no books.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One very good business that we are developing in New York is prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is a respectable business for the Americans.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Restaurant and prasādam carts. And we're getting good profit from it.

Prabhupāda: We can do everywhere the same.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here we're doing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, here also, in India. That is very good, honest.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And it's very spiritual. There is no contamination in that.

Prabhupāda: Now in Hyderabad we have got the farm. We can produce ghee and grains and make restaurant.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Hyderabad.

Prabhupāda: City.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Especially the location of our temple is so first class.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The center of the town.

Prabhupāda: You can have very nice center for restaurant. And in these cities they like nice restaurant.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can compete with G. Pullareddy.

Prabhupāda: No, he's a sweet man. He has no restaurant.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There are many hotels in Hyderabad.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Vṛndāvana hotel in our quar . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That's a good . . . that will be very popular, restaurants, especially prasādam restaurant. If they know it is . . . if it is pure . . . because I know. I was eating in many restaurants in different cities before you told us that we shouldn't do that, and people go there because there's nowhere else to go. But it's never that clean, nor is it very good. But the office people, they have to eat somewhere.

Prabhupāda: Formerly they used to be, because that was not restaurant. Restaurant in Indian style, they were selling paraṭā. In Delhi there are many. So those who were interested with paraṭā, they'll sit down and they will supply first-class paraṭā and vegetables.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. That's not there anymore. In Bombay the only good restaurant . . . there is a Marwari restaurant where they have this dhawa system. But there's only one, and it's in Kalpadevi, so hardly anyone will go there anyway. No office people go there. Only the Marwaris go there.

Prabhupāda: No, Bombay there are so many restaurants.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they're very . . .

Prabhupāda: Dirty.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That restaurant, mostly for drinking tea and pakorā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And there's a few in the office area in Fort where they give you . . .

Prabhupāda: Regular.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . thāli. One rupee fifty, thāli.

Prabhupāda: Thāli?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Thāli. They give four small purīs, three sabjīs . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh. That is called . . . oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . and a little rice and half a papad. But it's not very filling, and it's not very nice.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Not first class.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. But yet it's packed with people. All the office people go there to eat there. And many office people get food brought to them in the office also, tiffins. You know . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have that in Bombay.

Prabhupāda: Yes, tiffin carrier.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a big business.

Prabhupāda: That is from their home.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. That's a big business.

Prabhupāda: There is a professional tiffin-carrier man. They collect from different houses, and they come by the train and give to the person in the office.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, that's collected from their home.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Sometimes from hotel.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Yes, from hotel also. Sometimes I see them, huge quantities of tiffins.

Prabhupāda: Bombay officers, they, more than fifty percent, they eat in that tiffin-carrier.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I think the restaurants make a big part of their business from that tiffin business in Bombay. Our . . . these other religions, just like Christianity, Judaism, they are accepted by the people and by the government because the people who are part of their religions are very normal in terms of doing business and society, etcetera. But we are very exceptional in every way. We don't . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore they say "Brainwash."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We don't fit into the normal pattern of things—no jobs, no proper dress. Everything's strange to them. Because we don't want their culture; it is so abominable.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is brahminical culture. They don't want it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. When the . . .

Hari-śauri: They don't have any culture.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When the British came here, they saw people sitting on the floor, they said, "Oh, uncivilized."

Prabhupāda: No, no. The British policy was that, "If you keep the Hindus as Hindu, it will not be possible to rule over them." That was their policy. Therefore, from the very beginning, childhood, everything Indian condemned.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So this is the same mentality in America now. They are seeing us . . . just like the gurukula, their opinion of gurukula—"Oh, children are getting up early? Forced to get up early? Forced to eat on the floor? Not being given proper diet?"

Hari-śauri: "Don't sleep on beds?"

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Same mentality as the British had when they came here.

Prabhupāda: But India, there is no such objection.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: None at all. Rather, they like our movement. So we should concentrate a lot of our energy here.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think we're the only . . . I think that what you are telling us is perfect in that now what we have to do is we have to vigorously explain our philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the only way. We have to educate them. If we remain silent now, then we will become squashed. We have to speak positively, "Yes, this is why . . . we are like this because of the following reasons."

Prabhupāda: Yes. And that is good for human being. That you have to convince. And actually that is fact. They are in ignorance. And they are advertising as scientist, philosopher—false propaganda. That is my view from the very beginning. They are nothing, all bokās. My Guru Mahārāja used to say. In the beginning I could not understand that, "Why he says everyone is bokā?" (laughs) Actually that is fact. They do not know the value of life.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are criticizing us because we say every one of them is demons. They don't like that.

Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja said his father, demon. Asura-varya. Tat sādhu manye asura-varya (SB 7.5.5): "Best of the demons. My dear best of the demons." (laughs)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean that's why . . . just like in that Back to Godhead. The thing is that some of our devotees are becoming a little bit . . .

Prabhupāda: Influenced.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Influenced, and they're a little scared, you know. They're fearful.

Hari-śauri: They don't want to upset people.

Prabhupāda: That you should not be.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. That's why it is that the Back to Godhead magazine is being compromised a little. They are fearful. But actually that magazine is our platform for speaking strongly. In your Back to Godhead that you were publishing, you were very, very strong. (break)

Prabhupāda: (Prabhupāda chewing) . . . Mr. McPherson. He became my friend in Allahabad. He was coming and talking with me. He spoke of one restaurant in London that, "It was so nice, and full of chili, I was crying; still, I could not leave it."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow.

Prabhupāda: Chili, in mild quality, it is digestive.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every day with the lunch that we are getting . . .

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . we have chili, and we have nimbu ācār. And then . . . that is also digestive a little. And then at the end we have papad, dry papad.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everything hot. The people who come to our restaurant would ordinarily not come, because they are very . . . they're just business people from the offices. They come in suits, and they eat in our restaurant, and they have a very good opinion of our movement.

Prabhupāda: Indian.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. All Americans. The Indians don't come to our restaurant because the food is not properly . . .

Prabhupāda: Made.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . spiced. It is not properly made. Actually, I don't like it. It's too bland. But for the American tastes it may be all right. But I think it's not proper. If we have a good cook who learns the cooking from here, then everyone will come.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. So why not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: These two girls, they are very fine. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of the big points of criticism is that we do not encourage our members to visit and spend time with their parents. In that way they say we are destroying the family.

Prabhupāda: Actually that we want to do.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, we wouldn't mind our members seeing the parents, but the parents are rākṣasas. How can we see them? They are so abominable. They are not actually father and mother, as you described.

Hari-śauri: Not at all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We had . . . a number of temples have been trying to hold parents' meetings. So in New York . . . in Los Angeles they held one. That was fairly successful for two reasons. One, when they did it, Mukunda was the chief man there. Mukunda's in Los Angeles now. So he didn't speak any philosophy, he just showed off all of the buildings. And another point was that most of the devotees in Los Angeles are married, and they have children, and they have proper apartments. So the meeting was fairly successful. Now, in New York, Rūpānuga did the speaking, and he spoke the philosophy, very strong and straightforward, for one hour. The parents became outraged. In fact, they interrupted him and would not let him finish his lecture. And secondly, in New York, most of the devotees are brahmacārīs, so there's no families. We don't have . . . no wife, no children. It means the parents have no grandchildren. They don't like that. So the parents are saying that, "My boy came here on a Sunday feast, and the next day he called me from Chicago. He was on a bus, traveling on one of your buses, and I have not seen him since, the last year and a half." In this way they were very angry. Very angry. The only way we calmed them down is that we gave them prasādam in the restaurant and then took them into the theater for a performance. Then they were placated. Otherwise they were very angry. They want us to have the children go to their homes with them.

Hari-śauri: And then they'll influence them away. Actually we have a good reason for not letting them see their parents now, because when the parents call them on the phone and say: "I want to see you for five minutes," it's so they can kidnap them and deprogram them. That's how they kidnap them. The parents call and they say: "Oh . . ." They make some arrangement to meet their child, and it's a trick. They have these gangsters waiting. I can see now my parents weren't so bad after all.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hmm!

Hari-śauri: I was thinking I was very unfortunate to take a birth in a family of nondevotees, but they're not so bad compared to these others.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatākā's mother is here.

Prabhupāda: Oh. What does she say?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, she's very nice. She wears sārī. She's attending your lectures in the morning, taking prasādam. She's a very nice woman. He's such a nice son, and it's due . . . you can see . . . she's very nice. She could be a devotee easily, in my opinion. I never talked to her, but just from the way she carries herself, immediately putting on sārī, quite happy to stay here for the time she's staying. He said he was going to bring . . . bring her here one evening to meet you. Acyutānanda's mother came here.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. He has returned?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. She was very surprised at how big he is. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She was very surprised to see how huge he is, 'cause the last time was 1967. He was very skinny.

Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughing) Hmm.

Hari-śauri: His father came when we were in Los Angeles. He was also favorable.

Prabhupāda: Mother also.

Hari-śauri: That was his stepmother.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hari-śauri: They divorced. The lady that came here was his real mother.

Prabhupāda: Real mother.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone is from divorced family. Jayapatākā's mother, my parents, Brahmānanda's parents. Brahmānanda's mother called him. We think that they were trying to deprogram Brahmānanda, because the second day that Brahmānanda arrived in New York, suddenly his mother called. How could she have gotten news that he was coming to New York? We never told her. But as soon as he arrived in New York she called him. So we ascertained they are listening to all of our telephone conversations. And they know. They are writing. The deprogrammers are writing to all of the devotees' parents in the movement, and they are going and talking to the parents, saying, "Do you know what your son . . ." or "Do you know what your daughter is doing? Are you aware that your daughter has lost all of her free choice? That they're being brainwashed now by this cult? That they are giving her . . . they have spoiled her whole life." In this way they try to pollute the minds of the parents who are innocent.

Hari-śauri: They're doing that everywhere, too. In Australia they're doing the same thing there, too.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they know all of the devotees' parents' names. Because the few devotees who do become deprogrammed, they give them all the names they know. And they have some informers within our temple also. All of our parents have told us that the deprogrammers contacted them.

Prabhupāda: They're organized.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, they're highly organized. They have regular newsletters.

Prabhupāda: (aside) Yes, one spoon more. Take. (break) Very strong opposition. (chuckling) This combination in your country is costly.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Peas, puffed rice and cucumber.

Prabhupāda: Puffed rice is costly.

Hari-śauri: I don't think . . . not so . . .

Satsvarūpa: But you can't buy it nice and fresh. They buy it in a bag, like you say, three hundred years old. (Prabhupāda chuckles) Puffed rice is . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not like here.

Satsvarūpa: Stale.

Hari-śauri: They've never seen it like this, in this form, anyway.

Prabhupāda: You can learn how to make puffed rice. It's not difficult.

Hari-śauri: All our farms should learn.

Prabhupāda: The paddy has to be cooked, once boiled and fried, er, mean dried, again cooked, again dried. Then you take out the skin and mix with little salt, and half baked, and then put into the hot sand. Oh, it will do . . . little laboring.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We cannot grow rice in America.

Prabhupāda: Oh. There is no paddy?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Only place I know is down in Mississippi farm. They are trying to.

Prabhupāda: They can grow. There is no difficulty.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But other places, they cannot. You see, the weather.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: New Vrindaban they cannot do.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Rice cannot be grown.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. New Varṣāṇā we cannot do.

Prabhupāda: California?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe. Florida they can do. Southern United States, the weather is more like India, especially Florida. Florida is very much like India.

Prabhupāda: There are many places like India.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hawaii they could do, I think.

Prabhupāda: Hawaii, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This Mr. Punja, I was talking with him. He had a . . . his suitcase was stolen in Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Suitcase stolen?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Calcutta at the . . . there's a big hotel at the airport, and he left his bags there, three bags. And when he came back, one of them was gone with all of his wife's jewelries. Hindustan Hotel, I think it's called. Yeah, Hindustan, that big airport hotel. On the . . . when you go down to Māyāpur by that road there's a big hotel near the airport.

Prabhupāda: I do not remember, but may be.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So. Anyway, he's lodged a complaint with the Tea Board, because he's a big tea importer, so he has connections. So he's lodged a complaint with the Tea Board. They're so dishonest. Even this is the five-star hotel. It's a big hotel in Calcutta, one of the two or three best, and they're so dishonest that as soon as a foreigner comes, they can figure out where the valuables are and they steal it. And most people will let them get away with it. He may not, because he's got so many connections. But it's so dishonest. Even they make an attempt to cultivate tourism and be professional but . . . spoiled.

Prabhupāda: Hotels are always unreliable. They have got duplicate key.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even during Sanātana Gosvāmī's time, that hotel-keeper.

Prabhupāda: Hotel you should not go simply by locking. Somebody must be there. Otherwise they have got duplicate key.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They just stole the whole suitcase.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. They have got duplicate key. They can take. Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's wondering about his Deities. I told him that the Deities are supposed to be ready by Gaura Pūrṇimā. You gave that time limit. He wanted to know what the size was and how many. So I knew there was Kāliya-Kṛṣṇa and four nāga-patnīs and Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa and Lalitā and Viśākhā and, I think I told him Gaura-Nitāi, Guru-Gaurāṅga, Gaura-Nitāi, and your deity and your Guru Mahārāja's deity. That makes thirteen.

Prabhupāda: So they are preparing?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think. Yes, they were told.

Hari-śauri: Rāmeśvara is supposed to be making all the arrangements.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Bharadvāja is preparing everything. He seems to be a good man.

Prabhupāda: Very good man.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His wife also.

Prabhupāda: He was misunderstood by Upendra before. He's a good man.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's very good. He was not properly dealt with, that's all.

Prabhupāda: This boy is crazy, Upendra. He was having turban like Bhajan, that Sikh man.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yogi Bhajan.

Prabhupāda: He becomes influenced by others very easily. Does not stick. Now there is no information of the wife and children.

Satsvarūpa: They're in Hawaii?

Prabhupāda: Last time saw in Vṛndāvana.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She was very good girl, his wife.

Prabhupāda: Very good girl.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She joined in Los Angeles.

Prabhupāda: Now he is without wife, children, such irresponsible. That is also one of the complaint. That complaint is regular in your country. Nobody takes care of wife and children.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Oh, one of the big complaints is about sex life, no sex life, except for children. Oh, they don't like that. That is very much complained on their part. "Why you are forbidding sex life?"

Prabhupāda: I'm not forbidding. Kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Well, in our Bible it doesn't say that."

Prabhupāda: "Your Bible, you take, but we have got our Kṛṣṇa. Dharmāviruddha-kāma. Then why you are taking contraceptive, rascal? You're killing your children. That is very good? Unrestricted sex, and when she is pregnant you kill. Are you human being or rākṣasa, demon?" Challenge them like this.

Hari-śauri: I saw a Chicago newspaper. I think Jayapatākā's mother must have brought it. And there was a page, and there was two big columns advertising abortion, so many different places you could go . . .

Prabhupāda: Everyone knows.

Hari-śauri: . . . for quick and easy abortions.

Prabhupāda: Abortion, child-killing. They are civilized?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they're becoming very quickly rākṣasas.

Prabhupāda: And eating fetus. So you are rākṣasas, less then rākṣasas. And they're criticizing us.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's really a question of the demons and the devotees, Prabhupāda, this whole issue. It's polarizing both sides. It's nothing else but that. We are not doing anything wrong. Our devotees should not compromise.

Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're up against demons. We should not think that these people will become satisfied. They're demons.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're not going to be satisfied.

Prabhupāda: Then description is there in the Sixteenth Chapter, exactly of the Western civilization. Read it.


pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca
janā na vidur āsurāḥ
na śaucaṁ nāpi cācāro
na satyaṁ teṣu vidyate
(BG 16.7)

"Those who are demoniac do not know what is to be done and what is not to be done."

Prabhupāda: This is their first qualification. They do not know what is the aim of life. Ask anyone what is the aim of life. They cannot say, like animal. Animal does not know. Eat, sleep, sex. They do not know. This is the demon's first quality. In which way life should be directed, they do not know. They are missing that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When I preach in the colleges, that's the first question I ask them. Not one person can answer. Never.

Prabhupāda: Aimless life. Aimless life, what they will not do? Everything they will do for sense gratification, because there is no aim.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the college never gives the answer, the teachers. 'Cause they themselves . . .

Prabhupāda: They do not know. The whole Western civilization, they do not know what is the aim of life. Naturally the aim of life becomes like animals—eat, drink, have sex and defend. That's all. That is the Western civilization. They are busy for defense and sex arrangement and eating voraciously and sleeping.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The religions should be giving us answer. (break)

Prabhupāda: The religion is only this Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Hari-śauri: The Christians know that if our movement spreads, they are finished.

Prabhupāda: They are already finished. You showed me that . . .

Hari-śauri: Oh, yeah.

Prabhupāda: Already finished.

Satsvarūpa: Jayatīrtha sent a cartoon from Punch Magazine. Big, big church, and the priest in the pulpit, and there's only lady there, and in the sermon he's saying: "Mrs. Bennett, you have to give more in the collection." She's the only one there. He said: "I think you will enjoy this, Prabhupāda. It shows the position of churches in the West."

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen London. So many hundreds of churches are closed.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we're buying all the churches.

Prabhupāda: All churches are closed.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just see. They call a meeting of five hundred rabbis, all of the leading rabbis, and the Jewish leaders in the whole USA, just to deal with this question of "The cults taking our children."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Us? Our . . .?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We're the main cult.

Prabhupāda: Then? This is a verse. They do not know what is the aim of life.

Hari-śauri: "Neither cleanliness nor proper behavior nor truth is found in them." All liars and cheats.

Prabhupāda: This is demon.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're filthy. That's for sure. They are filthy. They have no idea of . . . in New York you can see that. They smell nasty. They keep on their shoes. You have to tell them to take . . . they never wash after eating. Even animals wash. At least they try to keep clean.

Prabhupāda: Read.


asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te
jagad āhur anīśvaram
kim anyat kāma-haitukam
(BG 16.8)

"They say that this world is unreal and that there is no foundation and that there is no God in control. It is produced of sex desire and has no cause other than lust."

Prabhupāda: Accident. "Some man, woman meets. Accidentally they become sexually inclined, and there is a child." Bās. So much. Why God? It is accidental, that's all. How vividly described.

Satsvarūpa: Thousands of years ago it was compiled, but it's . . .

Prabhupāda: Not thousands. Millions. Kṛṣṇa says within the Bhagavad-gītā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But until you came and gave us this knowledge, we were thinking like that.

Prabhupāda: Everyone. And there were so many Gītā scholars.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I read the Bhagavad-gītā, but I still thought like that.

Prabhupāda: And leaders like Gandhi, they would never say all these things. Nonviolence. He has manufactured his own idea, taking, cheating people with Gītā. This is first time we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Then?


etāṁ dṛṣṭim avaṣṭabhya
naṣṭātmāno 'lpa-buddhayaḥ
prabhavanty ugra-karmāṇaḥ
kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ
(BG 16.9)

"Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves . . ."

Prabhupāda: This is their platform, line for line, demoniac. Then their activities.

Hari-śauri: ". . . and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world."

Prabhupāda: Just see. There is periodical war.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Threat of atomic war any moment.

Prabhupāda: Then?


kāmam āśritya duṣpūraṁ
mohād gṛhītvāsad-grāhān
pravartante 'śuci-vratāḥ
(BG 16.10)

"The demoniac, taking shelter of insatiable lust, pride and false prestige, and being thus illusioned, are always sworn to unclean work, attracted by the impermanent."

Prabhupāda: Then?


cintām aparimeyāṁ ca
pralayāntām upāśritāḥ
etāvad iti niścitāḥ
āśā-pāśa-śatair baddhāḥ
īhante kāma-bhogārtham
(BG 16.11-12)

"They believe that to gratify the senses unto the end of life is the prime necessity of human civilization. Thus there is no end to their anxiety. Being bound by hundreds and thousands of desires, by lust and anger, they secure money by illegal means for sense gratification."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Leave it, this.

Hari-śauri: If this gets read in the court, they'll really . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is perfect for the court. And the purports are very strong.

Prabhupāda: There is purport?

Hari-śauri: To all of those, yes. Long purports. Should I read all the purports?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Hari-śauri: "In every civilized human society there is some set of scriptural rules and regulations which are followed from the beginning, especially among the Āryans, those who adopt the Vedic civilization and who are known as the most advanced civilized peoples. Those who do not follow the scriptural injunctions are supposed to be demons. Therefore it is stated here that the demons do not know the scriptural rules, nor do they have any inclination to follow them. Most of them do not know them, and even if some of them know, they have not the tendency to follow them. They have no faith, nor are they willing to act in terms of the Vedic injunctions. The demons are not clean, either externally or internally."

"One should always be careful to keep his body clean by bathing, brushing teeth, changing clothes, etc. As far as internal cleanliness is concerned, one should always remember the holy names of God and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. The demons neither like nor follow all these rules for external and internal cleanliness."

"As for behavior, there are many rules and regulations guiding human behavior. (break) They take it for granted that all manifestation of diversity is a display of ignorance. Just as in a dream we may create so many things, which actually have no existence, so when we are awake we shall see that everything is simply a dream. But factually, although the demons say that life is a dream, they are very expert in enjoying this dream. And so, instead of acquiring knowledge . . ." (break)

Prabhupāda: Should we read?

Hari-śauri: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: It is already there.

Satsvarūpa: The whole case is prepared.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Satsvarūpa: The whole defense is prepared by Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has given all knowledge. Actually, nobody has tried to present Bhagavad-gītā like this. That's a fact. And it is acting. (laughs) Now it is acting. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante . . . (BG 7.15). Make your defense measure consulting all these books, everything. Transmigration, in the morning I . . .?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . explained.

Satsvarūpa: You explained that whatever a person is thinking, that's his desire. At the time of death the desire is very prominent, so he takes a body according to that desire. And then you described exactly how it happens, that the subtle body carries the soul, just like the air carries the aroma of the flower into the semina of the man to the woman, who supplies the ingredients, and the body comes out. In this way he travels from one body to another.

Hari-śauri: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)