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770416 - Conversation - Bombay

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770416R1-BOMBAY - April 16, 1977 - 73:23 Minutes

(Conversation with Ram Jethmalani (Parliament Member))

Prabhupāda: I was cooking in my hand. So for one man sitting I was cooking not less than for ten to fifteen men.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was the idea?

Prabhupāda: The idea is everyone wanted some food prepared by me. They wanted my preparation. All right, do it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All the devotees in the early days.

Prabhupāda: No, not devot . . . when I was living here and there. Like Dr. Mishra's place.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was very fond of your cooking.

Prabhupāda: He got a good cook without paying. (laughs) And I had no other alternative. I liked it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Was he paying for the foodstuffs?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was giving his place and foodstuff. I was preparing and eating and giving them. I will not pay him, no. Everything he was paying.

Indian man: Ye before breakfast, medicine ye thoda sa le lo. (Take this before breakfast, take a little bit of medicine.)

Prabhupāda: Wo abhi breakfast . . . (Just now breakfast . . .)

Indian man: Matlab subah le lene ko bola hai Mataji ne. (Mataji asked to have it in the morning.)

Prabhupāda: Acha. Ye kya chiz se bana he? (Okay. What is it made of?)

Indian man: Iska kuch dashmul koi , das jadi buttiyon se banaya hua he. (It's from some ten roots. It's made of ten herbs.)

Prabhupāda: Hmm . . . To kaise khana padega ye? (Okay . . . then how to eat it?)

Indian man: Aise. (Like this.)

Prabhupāda: Chaat len? (Lick it?)

Indian man: Han. (Yes.)

Prabhupāda: I have gone through variety stages of life. So I have got full experience of this material world. I don't want. That determination is there. Society, family, love, friendship, these nonsense, everything—out! I have tasted. I am no more interested with this material. That is niṣkiñcana. Finished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Distaste for all worldly things.

Prabhupāda: That I am realizing, that Kṛṣṇa pushed, dragged me through all circumstances, that "These are useless." Niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukha . . . (CC Madhya 11.8). That is required. Just like Jagāi-Mādhāi, they were made to promise, "No more." "Yes, sir, no more." "Then I accept you. That's all right." "No." And they made it, kept their promise. They became faithful.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually you also demand of us that promise, "Now whatever you have done, never mind, but no more. Follow these four principles." That means if the devotees don't follow, then they will not make advancement.

Prabhupāda: They are breaking their promise. Before accepting them, I make him promise. They promise it. If they break, what can I do?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then the connection, the contract is finished.

Prabhupāda: This should be the principle, "No more this." Then he becomes fit. Āra nahe vākya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore accepting initiation is a serious matter.

Prabhupāda: Initiation means seriously take up the . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vow.

Prabhupāda: And if you make it a fun business, then I become implicated, you become implicated.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In what way does the spiritual master become . . .?

Prabhupāda: Well, this is then something.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has to work very hard on behalf of the disciple . . .

Prabhupāda: No. To accept his sinful reaction.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He does that.

Prabhupāda: It is not easy job to become a spiritual master. Yes. Then when it is overloaded, you'll suffer.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa transfers the sinful reaction unto the spiritual master from the disciple?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why? Is it because there will be such a heavy . . .?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says . . . that is the principle. This is, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). "You have to take all the sinful reactions." This is the principle, that Kṛṣṇa is God, He can nullify everything. But I am not God. When it is overloaded, I have to suffer. This is the principle that the Christian idea, that Christ takes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The trouble with the Christians is that they never relieved Christ. They go on sinning. That's not love.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The principle is that the spiritual master takes all the resultant sinful action, but the disciple also says that, "Now, stop it. Otherwise my spiritual master . . ." That is gentleman. And "Now use that thing, go on taking our sinful reaction. We will go on with our own business."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's not loving at all. That is taking advantage.

Prabhupāda: That is cheating.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cheating.

Prabhupāda: The same cheating. And he is not liberated because he continues cheating.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Frankly, though, we can see by Christianity that some defect is there. Either it's probably not there on the part of Jesus. He could have given them a way to purify themself, but they . . .

Prabhupāda: One chance that, "You have accepted me; I take your all sinful reactions." But these rascals continue.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His point was that, "Now you must continue to follow my instructions."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise why ten commandments? And these rascals took it that, "I shall not follow any of you. You take our sinful reaction. It is very good religion."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And therefore they say no one is more merciful than Jesus.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even if . . . we are doing anything, but he still forgives us.

Prabhupāda: This is going on. Therefore according to history, he retired. That is resurrection. He went to Kashmir. "It is hopeless."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He didn't die on the cross.

Prabhupāda: It is not possible to kill him. Such a great personality, representative of God, he is not killed. That is not possible.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Simply by putting some wounds.

Prabhupāda: He made a show that, "I am killed." That is resurrection. And when you finished your business, then he will go . . . (indistinct)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they say that when he got down they rubbed his body with oils.

Prabhupāda: He was a great yogī and so on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You remember in that book you were reading, The Aquarian Gospel. It mentioned how he learned yoga when he came to India.

Prabhupāda: We admit. Guru Mahārāja said śaktyāveśa-avatāra, powerful incarnation. Therefore whenever there was question of Jesus, I never disrespected Jesus, never criticized him, because I know that he is powerful representative of God. We took it from Guru Mahārāja.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your Guru Mahārāja would sometimes . . .

Prabhupāda: He said that Christ is śaktyāveśa-avatāra, as Buddha. How he can be otherwise? He sacrificed everything for God. He cannot be ordinary man.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Hmm. That Melbourne meeting, it was . . . you were present?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I heard about it. With the monks, I think.

Prabhupāda: They very much appreciated. Because they saw that I have got full respect for Christ and his real disciples. And actually we have. Why not? He said: "Thou shalt not kill," and they are interpreting killing. This is going on. And they are Christian. Just see how much cheating. It is clearly written, "Thou shalt not kill." And their only business is killing, and still, they are Christian. How much cheating it is. Whatever little success is in our movement, the cause is I have not tried to cheat. Honestly, what I knew, I heard it from Guru Mahārāja and scripture, I took it. There was no cheating.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, you pointed that out yesterday when you talked with Mr. Rajda, that it's an open secret. You are not introducing anything new. You are simply giving the instructions of Bhagavad-gītā, but you are not introducing anything on top of those instructions. No interpretation. As it is. That's the whole problem. They are all reading Bhagavad-gītā, these politicians, but none of them as it is.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I said, "Who understands this meaning of one line?"

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They really think that Morarji is a big religious man. They are very happy to think that their prime minister now is very, very religious. They are very pleased to think like that.

Prabhupāda: I said that my disciples rise at 3:30 and worship till 9:30. He said that he rises at 3:30 and three hours for . . . so I immediately said, "They are taking twenty-four hours."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, we don't engage in politics for the other nineteen hours. Of course, I mean, I never would have said anything, but the fact is that this is not the business of one who is eighty-four years old, to be the prime minister. It is better if he were to take up preaching Bhagavad-gītā. You gave that advice to Gandhi. He could do more good then.

Prabhupāda: They will take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and do their business. (pause)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What are some of the important śāstric references in regard to developing an article on cheating?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Where is authority, that you are speaking rightly? Just like in the law court, when they plead, they give the reference to the lawbook that . . . a good lawyer means he will give reference, "Under section . . . this is my authority." That is authority. (break) Tabiet thik hai? (How is your health?)

Indian Man: Bas Ashirwad hai apki. Thik he. (It's all your blessings. It's fine.)

Girirāja: So this is Mr. Ram Jethmalani. He is the Member of Parliament representing this constituency. So he recently came from Detroit. He was teaching at the university there while this emergency was going on, and now he came back. So he mentioned his idea of helping the slum-dwellers. So I have showed him that article, "One Hundred Million Harijanas Looking for a New Messiah" and gave him a copy of the letter which Goswami Mahārāja wrote. In the meantime he was just busy with other functions. He didn't get a chance to go through it. He is very interested.

Prabhupāda: So we can uplift the position of the harijanas very easily, by this process of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. There is a song, Bengali song, vrajendra-nandana yei . . . you understand Bengali?

Ram Jethmalani: No.

Prabhupāda: Vrajendra-nandana yei, śacī-suta haila sei, meaning that, "Who was formerly Vrajendra-nandana, Kṛṣṇa, Nanda Mahārāja's son, the same person has now come as Caitanya Mahāprabhu." Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mother's name was Śacīdevī. Therefore He is introduced, "The same person who was formerly the son of Nanda Mahārāja has come again as the son of Śacīdevī." Balarāma haila nitāi. "And Balarāma has come as Nitāi." These two brothers, Gaura-Nitāi, They have now started this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. So what is the purpose of this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? So pāpī-tāpī yata chila, hari-nāma uddhārila. In the Kali-yuga, ninety-nine percent, they are sinful and suffering. Pāpī-tāpī. Pāpī means sinful, and tāpī means suffering. All of them, pāpī-tāpī yata chila, they are all delivered simply by this process of Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Pāpī-tāpī yata chila, hari-nāma uddhārila. Then where is the evidence? Tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi. You are a lawyer, you want witness, evidence.

Ram Jethmalani: (laughing) You don't blame me.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, it is not blaming, it is fact. It is the real understanding. Without evidence, without proof, how law can be established? That's a good method. So he is speaking like lawyer that, "You want evidence, you want witness: see here." Tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi. So that is five hundred years ago. Now in our Hare Kṛṣṇa movement you see practically. Drunkards, illicit-sex hunters, and so on, so on, they have become saintly persons. This is the effect of it. So . . . and Kṛṣṇa also says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). It doesn't matter. Pāpa-yoni . . . according to our Vedic system, low-class, those who are born in low-grade family, they are called pāpa-yoni. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, lower than that—śūdrādham. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). They are called pāpa-yoni, untouchables. Of course, nowadays these things cannot go on. But these are there. So Kṛṣṇa says, ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. Anyone born in anywhere, te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Mām eva vyapāśritya. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice, everyone can be elevated. So what is this harijana? We can do.

Ram Jethmalani: Well, some of these slum-dwellers are not harijanas, and some of them are Muslims, some of them are . . .

Prabhupāda: Anyone, anyone. You see. My all disciples, they are coming. Christian, Jewish, Muslim, every kind. Mostly they are my disciples.

Ram Jethmalani: Have Muslims taken to this movement?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many. One professor, Dr. Amjar, he is my disciple, I gave him name Rāma-rañjana. They are Muslim. It is philosophy, science. It is not meant for a particular caste or creed or nation. No. Rather, to accept this creed or accept this process, one is required first to give up this designation. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). That is nirmala. So long we are covered by this material body, we are not nirmala; we are polluted. So one has to give up this designation, bodily concept of life. Tanu-māninā. These words are given. Tanu-māninā. So long one is continuing in the bodily concept of life, it is sinful life, in comparison. This we have to give up, in order to come to the transcendental position. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam. Nirmala. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170). When we become nirmala, in our original, pure spiritual life, then bhakti begins. And in Bhagavad-gītā also it is stated:

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
(BG 18.54)

Such person, brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20), ahaṁ brahmāsmi, that is the preliminary qualification to become bhakta. So these disciples, these devotees, they are not thinking that, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am . . ." No.

Ram Jethmalani: No, that is true, that's the . . .

Prabhupāda: That is sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170).

Ram Jethmalani: That is the only way to have a world movement. Must do. Cut across these . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. So harijanas, Muslims, these are . . . and camara-bhangi. These are designations. Or brāhmaṇa. Bodily concept of life. So according to our śāstra, so long one continues this bodily concept of life, he is animal. Either you call I am bhangi, or you call I am brāhmaṇa, you are animal. This is the verdict of the śāstra. What is the difference? The conception is the same. "I am dog," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am Indian," "I am American." That "I am" with the bodily identification is there.

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ
yat tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ
(SB 10.84.13)

Go means cow, khara means ass. So, so long we shall continue this bodily concept of life—"I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Pakistani," "I am . . ." so on, so on, that is animal concept of life. So one has to raise himself from this impure designated position to the transcendental position. Then he can realize. And that is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And Bhagavad-gītā teaches from the very beginning, "Don't identify with this body." Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase (BG 2.11). "You are talking like a very learned man, but you are identifying with this body." Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. "This body is a lump of matter, and you are considering upon this and talking like a paṇḍita." This is the beginning. So who understands Bhagavad-gītā? Where Bhagavad-gītā begins? Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). They do not understand even the first line of Bhagavad-gītā, what to speak of this statement. Bhagavad-gītā is purely meant for the dehī, the owner of the body, not of the body. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā teaching. Who understands it? Nobody understands it. And they are scholars, and they are so on, so on.

Ram Jethmalani: How is it that the Bhagavad-gītā doesn't emphasize public service? There is no emphasis on public social service.

Prabhupāda: Where it is? Tell me. You must give evidence. You are lawyer.

Ram Jethmalani: No, no.

Prabhupāda: Where does it say?

Ram Jethmalani: No, why is there no emphasis?

Prabhupāda: There is no need. This is animal conception of life. The dog also combine together and make (makes barking sound) bow-bow-bow-bow-bow. A human being also can do like that. Then where is the difference between animal and human being?

Ram Jethmalani: But I don't know that animals, on the contrary, serve each other. It is men who do.

Prabhupāda: But what is the use of serving? What you can do? What service you have done? You cannot do anything beyond the laws of nature. Now Indira is in difficulty. What can you do? In one day, everything is finished. The law of nature is so strict. You cannot do anything. You are falsely proud that you want to do. It is not possible. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). You can do only the service that, "You are not this body; you are spirit soul. Your business is this." This is dharma.

tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido
na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ
tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham . . .
(SB 1.5.18)

Now they are declaring . . . our Mrs. Gandhi also said, daridra-anadha. Then what she has done?

Ram Jethmalani: No, she has not done anything.

Prabhupāda: No, no, now she is adha. So who is doing this? You are completely under the laws of nature. You cannot violate. If you are tied up, hands and legs, what you can do? First of all liberate yourself. Then talk of liberating others.

Ram Jethmalani: But when you see so much of physical suffering around . . .

Prabhupāda: But what you can do? That is my . . . it is very good, sympathetic.

Ram Jethmalani: Is it right to tell the suffering that, "I am busy, at work for my salvation"?

Prabhupāda: We don't say like that. We say that, "Here is the remedy for rectifying your suffering: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Come to it." We don't say that, "You suffer." We say: "Stop your suffering in this way." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). We are also trying to stop that suffering. But the ordinary people, they do not know how to stop it. Just like the United Nation. They are united, to mitigate the sufferings of the whole human . . . what they have done? Simply like barking in that assembly with . . . you go on suffering. Stop suffering. So you must know first of all how sufferings can be stopped. Then you do this needful. Otherwise, what is the use if you do not know the method? Here is duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). I think you have read Bhagavad-gītā.

Ram Jethmalani: Oh, yes, but not for . . .

Prabhupāda: Here is, here is . . . find out this verse, mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam . . . nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ. This is real mitigation of suffering. This is . . . the world is suffering.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

mām upetya punar janma
duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ
(BG 8.15)

Prabhupāda: This is mitigation of suffering. Mām upetya. Read it again.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

mām upetya punar janma
duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
(BG 8.15)

Prabhupāda: Mām upetya punar janma duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. So long you have to accept another body, you must suffer. Suffering means this body. That Kṛṣṇa says. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Real suffering is here, that you have to take your birth, you have to die, you have to suffer from disease and old age. But your position is na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. Your business is not to take birth and die. But why you are suffering? Nobody wants to die; you must die. Nobody wants to become old man; he must become. So you do not know what is suffering and how to mitigate it. And Kṛṣṇa points out, "This is suffering: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam." This is knowledge. So temporary . . . suppose if there is any boil, and if you (gesticulates). Is that mitigation of suffering, do you think? "Oh, you are suffering?" The surgeon must come and operate and get out this pus and then suffering. So here Kṛṣṇa recommends, "This is mitigation of suffering. Stop your birth, death, old age and disease." So we do not know what is suffering and how to get out. Therefore we have to consult Kṛṣṇa in every step. Then our life will be . . . this is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You take instruction from Kṛṣṇa and try to abide by it. Your sufferings will go. Otherwise, simply (chuckles) dog barking will not help.

Ram Jethmalani: Anyway, I will be in touch with your Girirāja.

Prabhupāda: You take. We are speaking from the authoritative statements of Bhagavad-gītā. We are not manufacturing anything. That is not our business.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we just received a letter from Pakistan. I thought you might be interested to hear along with Mr. Jethmalani. It describes some very interesting preaching that went on there. It is just a short paragraph if I could read it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's from your disciple Ātreya Ṛṣi.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. He went there?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Śrīla Prabhupāda has a disciple by the name of . . .

Prabhupāda: He is Muhammadan. He was Attanya. (Faramarz Attar) So I have given him the name Ātreya Ṛṣi. There are many like that. In Iran we have got center, Tehran. We have got many Muhammadan disciples there, prosecuting our method. And he is the head there. Just see. Ātreya Ṛṣi. What he has said?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda sent Ātreya Ṛṣi to Pakistan. He writes, "My dear Śrīla Prabhupāda, please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to you, who are the only guiding light in the world of darkness. India is that holy land in which the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Śrī Caitanya appeared and in whose inhabitants He instructed to go all over the world and spread the science of love of Godhead. It is in this way that I realize your emphasizing the activities of ISKCON in India after your very successful endeavoring in the West. Pakistan is a nonseparable part of India, and I appreciate your compassion towards them and your desire to help them."

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "In accordance with your desire I went to Karachi and spent two days there. I first visited the marble factory of Mr. Azis Pir Mohammed. This man belongs to the Ismaili sect of Islam, the followers of Aga Khan. His factory is very small, and he and his three brothers manage it. Their primary business is cutting alabaster into vases, tiles, plates, cups, etc. and they sell their products mainly to foreign countries. I made two visits to their factory and preached extensively to Azis, his brother, his friends and workers. They all liked Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are intelligent enough to understand, and in due time will be able to follow your instructions seriously. However, they need more association and a devotee to constantly engage them. I did not see fit to ask them for the use of their house as a center yet, but I told them that I would be opening a center in Karachi, and they were happy to hear this. They promised to help in whatever way they could as soon as our men appear on the scene."

Ram Jethmalani: Sir, I will take leave of you, and with your blessings, I hope we shall soon be . . .

Prabhupāda: No, we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness without any sectarian . . . that is our . . . unity on spiritual platform. Try to understand.

Ram Jethmalani: I hope we can be of some use sometime to your . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. That position . . . that is required, that you want to cooperate.

Ram Jethmalani: Whatever you order any time.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. So we have got some difficulties here, inform him.

Girirāja: Actually, he offered that if there was any difficulties he would help us.

Prabhupāda: So inform him. Prasāda?

Girirāja: Actually, there is supposed to be prasāda coming up right now.

Prabhupāda: So please wait, let the prasāda come. Take.

Girirāja: I will bring it up here.

Ram Jethmalani: We will take it in the car, because it will help us to attend a public meeting in time. I am on a thanksgiving tour of the constituency. We go in the evening to . . .

Indian man: We are taking him to Andheri. There is a meeting. We have kept a huge vote.

Prabhupāda: No, no, how they will take prasādam?

Girirāja: Well, I think if they could wait one or two minutes.

Prabhupāda: No, it is not . . . kindly wait.

Ram Jethmalani: Yes. But here?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not?

Ram Jethmalani: We won't eat in your presence.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Ram Jethmalani: I will be very glad to see that you have taken. Bring immediately.


dadāti pratigṛhṇāti
guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati
bhuṅkte bhojayate caiva
ṣaḍ-vidhaṁ prīti-lakṣaṇam
(Upadeśāmṛta 4)

Six kinds of loving exchange. One of them is bhuṅkte bhojayate. Khilana aur unke hath se khana. (laughing) Ap humko kuch dijiye hum khayenge aur hum apko kuch den ap khayen. (Feeding and eating from their hands. (laughing) You give us something, we will eat and we give you something, you eat.) This is, out of the six items, the two items. Ap humko kuch dijiye, hum apko kuch denge. (You give us something, we will give you something.) Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti. Ap humko kuch bhojan pe dijiye, apko hum kuch bhojan karayenge . . . aur ap apna dil ka baat boliye, hum apna dil ka baat bolenge. Ye cheh prakar ka exchange se love hota he. (You give us something to eat, we will offer you something in food . . . you speak your heart out, we will speak our heart out. With these 6 types of exchanges, love happens.) This is the science of love. Everything is there.

Ram Jethmalani: What are the other four? You told us two.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is asking what are the other four symptoms of loving exchanges.

Prabhupāda: These six is sufficient.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You gave two. He wanted to know what the first . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, dadāti pratigṛhṇāti, to give and to accept. And khilana, (to feed), to give him food, and when he offers, take it. You open your mind to him and let him open his mind to you. Guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati. Guhyam means confidential. Unless you love me, how can I speak to you my confidential subject matter? So give and take, the English word is love. This is love, beginning. In European, American countries there is free love. So they offer flower. He or she accepts. And in this way love begins. Kṛṣṇa also says . . . love of Kṛṣṇa begins also in that way. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. (break) These things. Simply with love if you offer to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa: aham aśnāmi, "I eat." Is Kṛṣṇa hungry? Tad aham aśnāmi. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Tad aham aśnāmi. Yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. The real thing is love. Patraṁ puṣpam is no value. Or lucī purī is no value. The real value is love. Yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. Therefore He does not accept anything from anyone else unless he is a devotee. This word is used, yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. Bhagwan agar apke hath se kha liya fir kya. Abhi tak . . . (If the Lord eats from your hand then what else. Till now . . .) You understand Hindi?

Indian man: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Hamare Bengal me ek paddhati he . . . wo ladka ladki jab dekhte hain shadi ke liye . . . to jaisa ladka ka baap ladki ko dekhne ke liye ata he . . . to udhar sabhi bhojan offer karte hain, udhar wo kha liya to ye maloom hogaya ki . . . (laughing) abhi tak . . . aur usko agar pasand nahi hua kuch baat to he will avoid . . . agar wo but, kuch kha liya to maloom hogaya je inko pasand hua aur ye marriage hoga. (laughing) Ye abhi tak he. (There is one method in our Bengal . . . when a girl and boy see each other for marriage . . . so the boy's father comes to see the girl . . . there everybody offers food, if they eat there then it's known that . . . (laughing) until now this is there . . . and if they don't like something he will avoid . . . but if he eats something then it's known that they liked it and this marriage will happen. (laughing). This is still there.) (aside) You can now open this. Ek culture hamara paas hai. (There is one culture with us.) This is Kṛṣṇa conscious culture. Iske liye sari duniya avoid karna. Ye dene se apka prestige badhega India me. Kam se kam hum log tik jayen ye jo movement hai iske liye aap log sab . . . kuch cooperation nahi alone I am standing. (You can avoid the entire world for this. If you distribute this, your prestige will increase in India. At least if you all just survive this movement . . . there is no cooperation, I am standing alone.)

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Ram Jethmalani: Our own intellect tells us that our intellect is finite. There are certain things which you can't reason, and that also I grant that you are right. One has to see these things with one's secret eye.

Prabhupāda: Krishna consciousness jisme sara duniya ka upakar hoga, dena chahiye Bhāratavarṣa ko. (Kṛṣṇa consciousness will benefit the entire world, it should be given to the entire Bhāratavarṣa.) This is the right of Bhāratavarṣa. Of this Caitanya Mahāprabhu says:

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra
janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
(CC Adi 9.41)

Ei para-upakāra, to distribute this knowledge to the whole human society. Wo jo human service sab bol rahe hain, (The human service which everyone is talking about,) This is the real human service, to give them knowledge.

Girirāja: (to guests) I know you haven't eaten all day.

Prabhupāda: Khaiye na . . . pet bhar ke. (Please eat . . . eat to your full stomach.)

Indian man: Ye to full bhojan ho gaya hai. (This is a complete meal.)

Prabhupāda: Han to full bhojan hi to chahiye pet bhar ke. (Yes, full meals are only required to eat until the stomach is full.)

Indian man: Itna khaya nahi jayega. (So much can't be eaten.)

Prabhupāda: Acha jitna apko khaya jayega, baki . . . (indistinct) . . . (Okay eat how much ever you can, remaining . . . (indistinct) . . .) Khaiye, dekhiye to kaise bana he. (Eat, see how the taste is.)

Indian man: Bhagwan ka prasad acha hi hoga. (Lord's prasadam will always be good.)

Ram Jethmalani: This is your standard food, no?

Indian man: Dr Patel sahab ke yaha aap aye the, bhojan kiya tha jabhi, me sath me tha . . . (When you came over to Dr Patel's place, you had meals, I was there that time.)

Prabhupāda: Han Han. Acha us samaya ap . . . (Yes Yes. Okay that time you were there . . .)

Ram Jethmalani: What is your normal dinnertime?

Devotee: The same, rice, dāl, cāpāṭis.

Ram Jethmalani: No, time.

Devotee: Oh, time. One o'clock.

Ram Jethmalani: And at night?

Devotee: Six o'clock.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At night we don't take. Only some fruit. Usually we eat one main meal at noontime, noon or one. And in the morning a little fruit, at night some milk. One main time a day.

Indian Man: Pehle bhi ek waqt aya tha yahan, wo chota tha na tabhi yahan marriage ka party tha, main, Dr. Patel aur dusre log aye the bhojan ke liye . . . (Before also I came here once, I was small and there was a marriage party, me and Dr. Patel and a few others had come for meals.)

Prabhupāda: Abhi tak to marriage party ke liye bahut bhari bade auditorium. (Now for the marriage party they make huge auditoriums.) . . . (indistinct)

Ram Jethmalani: Were you nonvegetarian before you joined this movement?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But now I could not even think of eating anything but Kṛṣṇa prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Hamara devotee bolte hain prasad . . . (indistinct) . . . to ap log khaiye. (Our devotees say prasadam . . . (indistinct) . . . so you all eat.)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is how Prabhupāda got us off of all nonvegetarian foodstuff. He personally cooked for us, and he made us eat so much that we lost all remembrance of anything but prasādam. Then after we were very nicely fed with prasādam, he taught us the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa. And after being very much pleased with the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa, then he would also lecture to us on Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So every part of us was satisfied—our tongues, our voices, our minds and intelligence, fully satisfied.

Ram Jethmalani: Your movement does allow also householders and professional men like us to be a part of the movement without having to . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very much so. Actually, we would look very much eagerly forward to having persons like yourself taking great part in our movement. It is with great difficulty that someone like Girirāja dāsa has to go to the court, because we have no one like you.

Ram Jethmalani: Oh, my great pleasure. Anytime you just tell me in the court when there is a problem. I'll be there in two minutes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Jar kaz take saze anya loke lathi baje. Jiska kam hai na wo to usi waqt kar leta hai aur dusre ke liye lathi . . . (laughing) (The work suits in the hands of the one skilled to do it. If someone else does it, he's sure to mess it up. Whosoever work it is, he does it immediately and for the other one stick . . . (laughing)) He is a lawyer, court case.

Girirāja: Actually, right now . . .

Ram Jethmalani: No, but can one be in the movement without having to adopt the stricter forms of all this, even at home?

Girirāja: Yes, he can participate. Just like if someone is initiated as a disciple, he must follow these four principles very rigidly: no meat-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex, and no gambling. But the śāstra says that you can serve either by giving your whole life or by giving your intelligence, by giving your time, by giving your words. So in whatever way possible, anyone can serve Kṛṣṇa and make more and more progress.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, this gentleman who has written this letter from Pakistan, he is a big businessman. He is the head of a very, very large business consultant firm in Iran. But in his free time he also tries to do a little preaching work.

Prabhupāda: He is a very responsible officer. What is his position?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is the managing director of Arthur Young and Company.

Girirāja: It's a big international firm of chartered accountants.

Ram Jethmalani: Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. Khaiye khoob pet bhar ke khaiye. (Please eat to the fullest stomach.)

Indian Man: Pet to bahut bhar ke khaunga. (Definitely will eat to the full stomach.)

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (laughing) Aj kal hamara tabiet thoda kharab hone se hum nahi kha sakte hain, isliye dekh ke hamara sikho . . . (laughing) Iccha he khane ki magar kha nahi sakte. (Nowadays because my health is not good, I am not able to eat. Therefore learn by seeing me . . . (laughing). There is the desire to eat but can't eat.)

Ram Jethmalani: Sir, how old are you?

Prabhupāda: I am eighty-one.

Girirāja: There was some discussion earlier whether Kṛṣṇa had an actual existence or whether He is imaginary.

Prabhupāda: Why imaginary? (laughter) He is in the history, Mahābhārata. Mahābhārata means greater, history of greater India.

Girirāja: (offering prasādam) Would you like a little more?

Ram Jethmalani: No thank you. I am trying to finish as much as I can.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Ram Jethmalani: One of the historical pieces of evidence is that if Rāmāyaṇa was historically earlier than Mahābhārata, it is curious that there is no reference in the Mahābhārata at all that any other gods of Rāmāyaṇa. And if it will be the other way around, there is no reference to . . .

Girirāja: But there is reference in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . . .

Prabhupāda: About Rāmāyaṇa.

Girirāja: . . . about Rāmāyaṇa.

Prabhupāda: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam there is reference of Rāmāyaṇa. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the last writing of Vyāsadeva.

Ram Jethmalani: In last writing it may contain, but between the two of them, there is no crossreference of any kind. Now, a personality like Kṛṣṇa, when first set up, it must have become a phenomena at least.

Girirāja: But in the Gītā Kṛṣṇa says . . . he describes His different vibhūtis, and there He says, "I am Rāma."

Prabhupāda: "Amongst the warriors, I am Rāma." The reference is there. This very word is there. "Amongst the warriors, I am Rāma."

Girirāja: And it's also described that the great sages in the forest who were worshiping Rāma, they wanted to associate with Him in a particular way which was not possible because He was acting as the ideal king, so He said that "In My future appearance as Lord Kṛṣṇa, I will fulfill all of your desires."

Prabhupāda: And besides that, in the Vedic literature, Brahma-saṁhitā, this name Rāma is mentioned.

rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan
nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu
kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat paramaḥ pumān yo
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
(BS 5.39)

Kṛṣṇa is the original God, and Rāma is expansion. Not only Rāma—other incarnations. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu. Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha—many.

Ram Jethmalani: Rāmādi.

Prabhupāda: Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu.

Ram Jethmalani: Rāma comes later according to this.

Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no question of later or former. These are always existing. And They appear, disappear according to the necessity. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham (BG 4.7). The mūrtis are there permanently, and They appear and disappear according to the necessity. Suppose in a case you require the reference to a law. It is not that the law has appeared for the purpose. The law was there already. You have to simply bring it for your business. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat paramaḥ (BS 5.39). Any sweets?

Indian man: Here.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you have got. Madhureṇa samāpayet. At the end you must take some sweets. Then it will be digested. Ye hamara Hindu paddhati he. Khoob pet bhar ke khao aur akhri me kuch mithai lao. (This is our Hindu system. Eat until the stomach is full and at the last bring some sweets.)

Ram Jethmalani: In U.P. they give you sweets first.

Indian man: First, at the time of taking water even. First they will give sweet and then water.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the system in your society? Sweet first or last?

Indian man: In here also, they are given first sweet.

Ram Jethmalani: Yes, but now everything has become Westernized. We have dessert.

Prabhupāda: In northern India first of all they give sweets. So they eat sweet to the heart's content. Then, to counteract the sweetness . . .

Ram Jethmalani: The best way to destroy your appetite is to eat sweet first.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs)

Indian man: They eat last to digest.

Ram Jethmalani: The sugar produces energy to digest your food.

Girirāja: No, no, I will take. (taking prasādam)

Ram Jethmalani: But this is too . . .

Prabhupāda: So I am very glad that you have taken the prasādam. I am pleased. Therefore I wanted that you eat before me. It is a great pleasure.

Ram Jethmalani: We are also very fortunate to eat before you, sir.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Sab ap logon ka mangal ho. (Good luck to all of you.) You take. There is. No. (indistinct discussion among guests) There is sink? There is sink?

Devotee: Here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Here.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Indian man: Dr. Patel and myself, we are friends. I am also practitioner in Delhi. Dr. Ramam.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you are also medical man. Oh. Ap aur kuch lijiye. (Take something else.)

Indian man: Nahi, bahut ho gaya hai. (No, it's already too much.) . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (laughing) Acha thik he. (Okay.)

Indian man: Mere ghar ko bhi jo kuch aya hai pura karna he. (Whatever has come to home that also I have to finish.)

Prabhupāda: Han uchit he. (Yes that's appropriate.)

Indian man: Not to spoil. That is national value.

Prabhupāda: Bhagwan jo deta hai na usko samman karna chahiye. Hum log ka bhi yahi vichaar hai. (Whatever the Lord gives, we need to respect it. We also have the same idea.) Prasāda-sevā. Not to waste. Hum log bachpan me, hamara mataji pitaji sikhaya tha . . . jameen me chawal gira hai aur usme pair lag gaya to usko utha kar ke aise . . . ye sikhaya gaya. (In our childhood, our mothers and fathers taught us . . . if rice falls on the floor and we step on it then we should pick it and do like this . . . this was taught to us.)

Indian man: Ann ka bada respect kiya jata hai. (There is a lot of respect given to grains.)

Prabhupāda: Han zarur. (Yes of course.) Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Ann se jeevan ata he. Ann ko asamaan na karna. Bhagwan andar hai hi hai. (Life comes from grains. Never disrespect grains. The Lord is already present inside.) Thoda elaichi lijiye. Hum log to paan . . . (Take some cardamom. We have paan . . .)

Indian man: Hum to khate hi nahi paan. Jeevan me nahi khaya paan. (We never eat paan. Never ate paan in my lifetime.)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . ap hath dho lijiye. (Please wash your hands.)

Indian man: Of all souls, we are sinners.

Prabhupāda: Why sinners? Ap lijiye elaichi. (You take cardamom.)

Indian man: Liya. (I took.)

Prabhupāda: Liya? (You took?) (aside) Get the light on.

Indian man: Ashirwad lete hain. Don't worry for me. Kabhi bhi adhi rat ko koi kam ho to mereko bol do. (Taking your blessings. Don't worry for me. Even at midnight if there is any work do tell me.)

Prabhupāda: Thoda hum log itna hi ye kosis kar rahe hain ye tika rahe, itna hi. (We are trying a little bit for this to survive, that's all.)

Ram Jethmalani: Don't worry. Nothing will disturb him.

Girirāja: Thank you. We will have to meet, then.

Ram Jethmalani: Any time. You just let me know; whatever, any problems, I am yours. Okay?

Prabhupāda: Jaya. (guests leave) By feeding, how much one becomes obliged. Wohi, shadi ka baat . . . kha liya to acceptable. (That marriage thing . . . if they eat they accept it.) You don't . . . any gentleman, give him something. Give him prasādam.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He ate everything.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, everything. Very sumptuously, pleasing. They were hungry.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He hadn't eaten all day. That's why Girirāja was insisting he must take.

Prabhupāda: No, you must insist. Yesterday . . . (indistinct) . . . he has called me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said, "I am yours."

Prabhupāda: So handle with them very cautiously. He'll take certainly. Intelligent boy.

Devotee: Next week we are going to Pakistan also.

Prabhupāda: Pakistan we have got a friend. You go and he will receive. So what is the conclusion of Ātreya Ṛṣi? (break) Read it. (break) . . . have been introduced in the world. That's a fact. All hodge-podge nonsense, philosophy nonsense, everything speculation. No solid instruction about the necessity or goal of life. Do you accept this or not?

Devotee: Of course yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You must be convinced. Otherwise you cannot convince others. (end)