740325 - Morning Walk - Bombay

Morning Walks by Date, 1974

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

740325MW-BOMBAY - March 25, 1974 - 41:46 Minutes

Satsvarūpa: (testing microphone) Hare, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . janmāni tava cārjuna (BG 4.5).

Indian man (1): Tāny ahaṁ veda sarvāṇi.

Prabhupāda: Why it is? That is my question. (break)

Indian man (1): God is the knower everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (1): He's there every time. Bhūtvā bhāvyo bhavat prabhu. God was in the past, present. He's ev . . . He is in the past, as well as present, in the future. There is no question of . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. I was also. I am also nitya.

Indian man (1): No, we are not nitya.

Prabhupāda: God is nityo nityānām.

Indian man (1): I mean . . . nityānām. But we are jīva. As long as I am jīva, I don't . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah, then dvaita-vāda. Then dvaita-vāda.

Indian man (1): Dvaita-vāda has to come. As long as you're in the body, you are dvaita. You cannot say when you are in the body that you are the God.

Prabhupāda: No, no. We are always dvaita.

Indian man (1): As long as you are in the body, if you have got the body consciousness, then you're always in dvaita.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Body . . . body . . . body is . . .

Indian man (1): No, what I feel, Swāmījī . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): I have got a body consciousness, that I am the body. I am Shah. Then I am dvaita, and I should be your servant.

Prabhupāda: No.

Indian man (1): And I cannot say that I am the Lord. But if . . .

Prabhupāda: No.

Indian man (1): . . . I forget completely body consciousness . . .

Prabhupāda: Body consciousness, that is ignorance. That is . . . just like you are dressed with this shirt. If you think that you are shirt, that is your ignorance.

Indian man (1): Body consciousness . . .

Prabhupāda: Just first of all try to understand.

Indian man (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: If you think that you are a shirt, that is ignorance, gross ignorance.

Indian man (1): That's right. Correct.

Prabhupāda: And if I have got this shawl, if I am thinking, "I am shawl," that is my ignorance. But either shawl or shirt, we are all individual. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . this, this is ignorance. But ignorance or knowledge, we are all individual.

Indian man (1): Body consciousness is not, I mean it is . . . suppose somebody insults me.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (1): Suppose somebody insults a God-minded person, and the God-minded person thinks, "Well, he's not insul . . . he's insulting this body, and not the living entity in me." That means he has lost the body consciousness. Suppose if beats with a stick, and he goes . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. That, that is ignorance. I have already explained.

Indian man (1): But I feel it is not ignorance . . .

Prabhupāda: Ignorance . . .

Indian man (1): It is, if he feels in the true sense . . .

Prabhupāda: No, my point is, either you are in ignorance or in knowledge, you are individual. (break) . . . have to, so why so long?

Indian man (1): Yes, here, here is . . . we have to walk quickly there.

Dr. Patel: But we thought you would come late, so we went there.

Indian man (1): So you have lost some . . . (break)

Indian man (2): . . . paripraśnena sevayā . . . (BG 4.34). (break)

Prabhupāda: Either you are in ignorance or in knowledge, both cases you are individual.

Indian man (1): In knowledge also we are individual?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): How?

Prabhupāda: Knowledge means . . .

Dr. Patel: Knowledge of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Knowledge means knowledge of yourself. When you are actually in knowledge, then you will surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). That is knowledge. So long you do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, you are in ignorance. Now, in ignorance, in ignorance I am surrendering to my wife, and in knowledge I'll have to surrender to Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (1): Correct.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Indian man (1): Both the times we are individuals. In both the times we are individuals. Correct.

Prabhupāda: Nityo nityānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13).

Indian man (1): Nityaḥ anityānām.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Some people say nityaḥ anityānām also.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Dr. Patel: Nityaḥ anityānām some also say. Nityo 'nityānāṁ cetanaś . . .

Prabhupāda: Who . . . one who says anitya, he's a rascal. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: Take that.

Prabhupāda: I, I say you. How, how the jīvas can be anitya?

Dr. Patel: No, it cannot be.

Prabhupāda: Then nitya.

Dr. Patel: No, they mean . . . anitya means all the, I mean . . . matter. Nitya in the matter.

Indian man (1): Temporary, effervescent.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Dr. Patel: Nitya in the matter, in the form of . . .

Prabhupāda: As soon as they say anitya, then they are duality. There is no oneness.

Dr. Patel: So I have read both the type of acclamation: nitya and anitya.

Prabhupāda: No, then . . . one who says anitya . . . anitya . . .

Dr. Patel: Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Yo vidadhāti . . .

Prabhupāda: Eko yo bahūnām.

Dr. Patel: Eko yo bahūnām.

Prabhupāda: Vidadhāti kāmān.

Indian man (1): . . . vidadhāti kāmān, tam ātma-sthaṁ ye 'nupaśyanti dhīrās . . . netareṣām.

Prabhupāda: Nityo nityānām. That means we, jīva, we are plural number, and the Supreme Lord is singular number. So what is the difference? The difference is that eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That bahu-vacana, nityānām, they are maintained by the singular number.

Dr. Patel: Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. He is only one. But He is, I mean, fulfilling their . . . this is so many, all. Because He actually . . .

Prabhupāda: He is feeding everyone. He is feeding His devotee, as well as nondevotees. The nondevotees are also provided by God. The nondevotees, they are not independent. They are also dependent. But they do not acknowledge.

Indian man (1): They don't understand.

Prabhupāda: Just like the prisoners. They are also maintained by government. And those who are not prisoners, they are also maintained by government. The prisoner is outlaw. They do not recognize the government. That is prisoner, criminals. But both of them are provided by the government. And so far individuality is concerned, that is mentioned in the Second Chapter. Kṛṣṇa said that, "You, Me and all these soldiers and kings, they were before existing like this, they're existing now like this, and they'll continue to exist." So individuality's always. Kṛṣṇa never said that, "After this, we shall become a homogeneous mass." Never says. Individual.

Dr. Patel: Just as the bees gather honey from different trees . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, they keep their individuality.

Dr. Patel: . . . and when the whole mass comes from, each small particle of honey does not know that he's from a particular tree, like that, he becomes . . . after the whole thing he gets, what do you call? The deluge.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Those, the collector, they remain individual, after and before, on the beehive. Always individual. That is the point. When they begin collecting honey, they're individual. And after collecting, when they make a beehive, they're individual. Or when they're sitting on the beehive, they're individual. Eternal. This is eternal. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. (break) So what is that? Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ?

Dr. Patel:

mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke

jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ

manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi

prakṛti-sthāni karṣati

(BG 15.7)

Prabhupāda: Karṣati.

Dr. Patel: Prakṛti-sthāni karṣati.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Śarīraṁ yad avāpnoti yac cāpy utkrāmatīśvaraḥ . . . (BG 15.8)

Prabhupāda: So . . . so they . . . śarīram, śarīraṁ yad avāpnoti. They get different bodies, but they're individuals. They're individuals.

Dr. Patel: They are individuals till there is a salvation. And after, they are . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh? Salvation means when they have ceased to accept the material body. That is salvation. Śarīraṁ yad avāpnoti. So avāpnoti means it was not . . . in the spiritual body there was no such thing, but they accept this material body.

Dr. Patel: This morning I read a very good thing from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, from Eleventh . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . every day say. Everyday say.

Dr. Patel: It is a wonderful thing.

Prabhupāda: Everyday I say like that.

Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit)

Indian man (1): (Sanskrit) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . we are servant. That I have explained several times. Yesterday also I explained. That, our constitutional position as servant, cannot be changed. Just like śūdra, servant. What is called . . . (indistinct) . . . the servant class?

Dr. Patel: Śūdra.

Prabhupāda: What do they say?

Dr. Patel: They cannot work for me.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Dr. Patel: Servants.

Prabhupāda: The domestic servants. What do you call? Ramaya, servants.

Indian man (1): Rāma, rāma, rāma, rāma.

Dr. Patel: He's really Rāma. (laughter) No, but I have read in Manu-smṛti that all these śūdras also, after the age of forty years, they come to the stage of brāhmins. I don't know how.

Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no bar. One may be . . . one may be uneducated now. He can be educated.

Dr. Patel: Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya, he becomes a brāhmin.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 389), he becomes a brāhmin. After forty years of age.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya . . .

Dr. Patel: Because he, by his own action, becomes brāhmin because he does the service of the Lord.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Anyone who is engaged in the arcanā of the Supreme, he's neither of these: brāhmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. He is Brahman. He has realized Brahman.

Dr. Patel: Brahma-bhuto 'bhijāyate.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is no more śūdra or brāhmaṇa. In the material world, even if you become a brāhmaṇa, that is not a very good position. That is māyā: "I am brāhmin."

Dr. Patel: But a sannyāsīs are also from the varṇāśrama.

Prabhupāda: They are also. They are also. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has denied, "I am not a sannyāsī, I am not a brāhmaṇa, I am not a kṣatriya, I am not a vaiśya, none of these." He said, gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80): "I am the servant of the servant of gopī-bhartuḥ." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's identification. So those who are actually in the . . . engaged in the service of the Lord, they are beyond, transcendental to the position of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya . . . yes.

Dr. Patel: Nāham . . .

Indian man (1): (Sanskrit) (break)

Dr. Patel: That is not Māyāvādī. That is not Māyāvādī.

Prabhupāda: That is . . . that is . . . that is not. I don't . . . if I say: "I am not Indian, I am not American. I am Brahman," that is not Māyāvāda.

Indian man (1): That is not Māyāvāda.

Prabhupāda: Because I am Brahman actually.

Dr. Patel: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: But . . .

Indian man (1): Mano buddhi ahaṅkāra (BG 7.4).

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. I do not belong to any of these material things.

Dr. Patel: Cidānanda aham.

Prabhupāda: That is not Māyāvāda. But the Śaṅkarācārya's interpretation is that ghaṭākāśa poṭākāśa, ghaṭākāśa poṭākāśa. Just like within the pot there is ākāśa. And outside the ākāśa . . . outside the pot, there is ākāśa. So when the pot is broken, both the ākāśa becomes one.

Indian man (1): One, yes.

Prabhupāda: That is his theory.

Indian man (1): That is his theory. That is Māyāvāda.

Prabhupāda: But he does not accept that individuality.

Indian man (1): Ghaṭākāśa is not . . . Ghaṭākāśa is not . . .

Prabhupāda: (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: If he does not . . . (Sanskrit)

Prabhupāda: Eh? No . . .

Dr. Patel: There is only one ākāśa. There cannot be multiple ākāśas.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Dr. Patel: Even in the pot or anywhere.

Prabhupāda: That I . . . that you cannot compare. Therefore I say that everyone is individual.

Indian man (1): As long as ghaṭa is there, there is a ghaṭākāśa.

Prabhupāda: That, within the ghaṭa, that cannot be compared. The analogy's wrong. Within the ghaṭa the ākāśa, that is not individual.

Dr. Patel: That's what I say.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but we are individual.

Indian man (1): That is individual, sir. As long as ghaṭa is there, you are individual ākāśa. That is correct.

Dr. Patel: These, all these analogies are nirdeśas. Nothing can explain or nothing can describe Brahman, beyond the reach of the mind and the tongue and all the intelligence of a man.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Therefore tad viddhi praṇi . . . upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ (BG 4.34). The tattva-darśī can.

Indian man (1): Tattva-darśī can only do it.

Prabhupāda: One who is blind . . . one who is blind . . . one who is blind, he cannot.

Dr. Patel: That's right. What about the . . .

Prabhupāda: You cannot . . . you do not go to a blind man. Therefore it is said, tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). Where you shall surrender? You are blind. If you surrender to a blind man, what is the benefit?

Dr. Patel: Who surrenders there, you also surrender. Not the body . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, try to understand. You can surrender to a person when you think that, "This person is . . ."

Indian man (1): Good.

Prabhupāda: ". . . better than me."

Indian man (1): He has realized it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru. Guru means he is heavier than you.

Indian man (1): Heavier. Correct, correct.

Prabhupāda: So otherwise, where is the question of surrender? Nobody wants to surrender.

Dr. Patel: But the heavier, everyone . . .

Prabhupāda: Heavier means in knowledge.

Dr. Patel: According to the law of Newton also, heavy articles attract the light articles. You are heavier . . .

Prabhupāda: No, Newton was a rascal. You know, Newton was a rascal?

Dr. Patel: I am also one. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Newton was a rascal. He made two holes in the door. And one friend came, "Why you have made these two holes in your door?" He said: "There are two cats, bigger and the smaller. So let them go out." So he asked, "With the bigger hole, the smaller cannot go?" "Yes, yes. You are right." (laughter) Any conditioned soul, he may be Newton or this or that, they are all rascals.

Dr. Patel: No, but some of the highest, I mean . . .

Prabhupāda: No, nobody is highest. Because everyone, everyone is in ignorance.

Dr. Patel: Ignorance is right, but . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore rascals.

Dr. Patel: Though their knowledge is ignorance, it is that. Brahman knowledge is right.

Prabhupāda: So therefore you have to . . . therefore the indication is tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā . . . (BG 4.34). You should go and take knowledge.

Dr. Patel: But I talk of the Einstein. Einstein, somebody asked Einstein . . .

Prabhupāda: Anyone . . .

Dr. Patel: . . . "Do you believe in God?" He said: "How can you not believe in God? God is everywhere, and I feel the presence of it." That is the real scientist.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Not the other fellows who say there is no God and all these things are atoms and all . . .

Prabhupāda: But still, he does not know that Kṛṣṇa is God.

Dr. Patel: That is . . . that is . . .

Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. That is ignorance.

Dr. Patel: . . . ignorance of God. That means there will be a quarrel between us two.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is ignorance. Mūḍha. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15).

Dr. Patel: Sir . . .

Prabhupāda: As soon as he does not know Kṛṣṇa, he is ignorant. Therefore it will take time. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). When actually he becomes a man in knowledge, then he surrenders. So, so long one does not know Kṛṣṇa, he's a fool. And that is our definition. Now, Mr. Sar, I am right or wrong?

Mr. Sar: You are right, sir. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: Now, even though you may not be right, he will say right because he's very much frightened of your calling him a . . . what do you call me?

Prabhupāda: A mūḍha. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: Well, I'm a vagabond type of man, thick-skinned. You may call me anything, I don't mind. You see? (Prabhupāda laughs)

Indian man (1): After all, the views, you see. Everybody is right in his own views. You see? You cannot challenge . . . after all, the views are given by the God. The jñāna-śakti's from God, from the Almighty, and not yourself. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . if you are right, Kṛṣṇa said, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ.

Indian man (1): Ah, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15).

Prabhupāda: So why, why Kṛṣṇa gives you less knowledge and others more knowledge? Why?

Indian man (1): Because . . .

Prabhupāda: Is Kṛṣṇa partial?

Indian man (1): No. As long as you're more conscious, then He gives you more knowledge.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Conscious . . . (indistinct) . . . because, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). Because the surrender is not full, therefore he's also not fully realized.

Indian man (1): He's not fully . . . correct.

Prabhupāda: That is the point.

Indian man (1): That's correct.

Prabhupāda: Ye yathā mām . . . that very word, prapadyante. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante. So if your surrender is twenty-five percent, then Kṛṣṇa is realized twenty-five percent. If your surrender is cent percent, then Kṛṣṇa is realized cent percent.

Dr. Patel: Can I say the same yathā and tathā, "The way he surrenders, the way I give . . ."

Prabhupāda: That means proportionate.

Dr. Patel: Why proportionate? Why not other way? The way I surrender in the lower knowledge of science is, well, He has given me the knowledge of science.

Prabhupāda: Just like . . .

Dr. Patel: They have given you the knowledge, the higher knowledge of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa is Paramātmā, Brahman and Bhagavān. So if you surrender to Brahman, so you realize Brahman. If you surrender Paramātmā, you realize Paramātmā, and if you surrender to Bhagavān, you realize Bhagavān.

Dr. Patel: To the wife, you get the roṭī.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: If you surrender to the wife, you get the roṭī in the morning. (laughs) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . thirty they open. We have to wait.

Dr. Patel: You will have to order them to open early. You have the . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Why shall I? Their duty must be finished. You cannot ask God that "You . . . God . . . God, please open. I want to see you."

Dr. Patel: Yes. You order God . . . the, the . . .

Prabhupāda: No, I can order. But that is not my business.

Dr. Patel: That is, that is . . . He understands the word. Even though you don't say by mouth, God understands. He's not . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not my order to order God.

Dr. Patel: No, it is not your order, but your mind He understands immediately that He comes there . . .

Prabhupāda: No, why shall I think like that?

Dr. Patel: Because . . .

Prabhupāda: No, that is not bhakti.

Dr. Patel: When you are not thinking—the, the thought automatically comes.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not bhakti. You cannot think of that, "God may do like this." No.

Dr. Patel: No, no. God does like that. Why He do?

Prabhupāda: No, you say that, "You order Kṛṣṇa what you think."

Dr. Patel: I don't say you order. You . . . automatically He fulfills your desire. There is no question of your ordering.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we should be desireless.

Dr. Patel: Desireless, yes. But desireless . . .

Prabhupāda: Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11). That is bhakti. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam. Anyābhilāṣitā means, "As God desires, let it happen." Not according to my desire. That is bhakti. As soon as you impose your desire, that is not bhakti. Why should you impose your desire? God is ready to fulfill the desire of His devotee immediately. He's so ready. But a devotee never desires. He does not like to bring God to fulfill his desires. No, that is not a pure devotee.

Indian man (1): But he has surrendered, and he feels that, "God gives me what we require."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: (Gujarati) But now the, now the sun is rising earlier and earlier. That is why. (break)

Prabhupāda: Bhakti, pure bhakti: anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam. No desire from the part of the devotee. Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). What Kṛṣṇa likes, that we should do. Kṛṣṇa likes that you surrender. We should surrender. That's all. That is the beginning of bhakti. If you don't surrender, you keep your individuality, that is not bhakti.

Indian man (1): There is no bhakti without . . .

Prabhupāda: That is not . . . bhakti may be there, but it is not pure cent percent bhakti.

Indian man (1): It is not pure bhakti.

Dr. Patel: Surrendering means you commit the suicide of your ego before Him.

Indian man (1): No suicide in this.

Prabhupāda: No, surrender means surrender. Now you can interpret in a different way.

Dr. Patel: That is my interpretation.

Prabhupāda: But why should you interpret? Surrender means you surrender.

Dr. Patel: But what surrender? Not the body . . .

Prabhupāda: No, whatever you have got . . .

Dr. Patel: Your individuality. Your individuality means your ego. So ego surrendering.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Indian man (1): Surrender is embracing the . . .

Prabhupāda: You are not only ego. You are combination of so many things.

Dr. Patel: But ego is the master of the whole thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: After all, ego is the precedent of all aggregate.

Prabhupāda: That surrender has been explained by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. He has written a nice song: mānasa deho geho, jo kichu mora. It is very easy to understand.

Indian man (1): Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda:

mānasa deho geho jo kichu mora

arpiluṅ tuwā pade, nanda-kiśora

(Śaraṇāgati)

Indian man (1): Nanda-kiśora. Correct, correct.

Prabhupāda: "Nanda-kiśora, what I have got? I have got a restless mind and I have got my family, home, wife, children, and this body. This is my possession. I am not the proprietor of the whole world or universe. But I am pro . . . I suppose, I think like that, that I have got a mind, think like nonsense and do like nonsense, and I have got this body, and I have got my family. So everything I surrender." This is surrender. Don't think anything else, what Kṛṣṇa does not like. That is first surrender. No reservation, that "So much I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, and I contemplate like this, like that, like that." That is not surrender.

Indian man (1): That is not surrender.

Indian man (2): And what about the desires?

Prabhupāda: Desire, this is desire. This is desire, that you don't make your desire, "Kṛṣṇa, come. I'll see You." No, don't make that desire. If Kṛṣṇa likes, He will make His, I mean to say, audience before you. A devotee never says that, "Kṛṣṇa, please come. I'll see You."

Dr. Patel: . . . (indistinct) (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many songs, "O my dear Kṛṣṇa, please come dancing with Your flute. I will see." These are not devotees' song. Kṛṣṇa will never say . . . uh, devotee will never say, order. No more.

Dr. Patel: Devotees are . . . the real devotees are gopīs.

Prabhupāda: Simply he's to carry the order. He's not to make order. That is devotee. Everyone in the material world, they worship demigods—why? Because they can order, "Please give me this. Please give me that." Rūpaṁ dehi, bhāryāṁ dehi, yaśo dehi, this dehi, this dehi, dehi . . . therefore they go to demigods. But to Kṛṣṇa he cannot demand. And therefore they do not go; they do not become Vaiṣṇava. You see? You'll see, all the devotees of Lord Śiva, they demanded something, "My dear Lord Śiva, you are so nice. Please give me this." "What do you want?" "Now, I shall touch anyone's head and head will be cut off." "All right, that's all." These things you cannot get from Kṛṣṇa. These things you cannot get from Kṛṣṇa. Therefore people do not go to Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa is a more hard taskmaster.

Prabhupāda: Because He cannot acc . . . He is God. He cannot accept anyone's order. That is God. If somebody accepts my order, he's not God—he's my servant. Or I make him my servant. That is surrender. No more ordering. God is not order-supplier. Although He supplies everything, but not . . . you cannot order. You cannot order.

Dr. Patel: According to His will.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows everything. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ (BG 15.15). He knows what you want. And He's always . . . (aside) Aiye. He knows what is your want. Just like father know what is the want of the child. But the child never orders father, "Give me this."

Dr. Patel: Nowadays, children order. They . . .

Prabhupāda: No, he's simply surrendered to father. He's confident, "My father is there. Everything is all right."

Indian man (2): Surrender then, that is not even my family, even I myself, I . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, "My family also I surrender."

Indian man (2): Then there is no remainder, my family. When I surrender, then nothing . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually, it is not . . . you are thinking . . . it is an illusion. You are illusioned that you are maintaining them. That is an illusion.

Dr. Patel: And illusion is māyā.

Prabhupāda: You are not maintaining. You are not maintaining. Just like I am, I am . . .

Indian man (2): . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Patel: That is you find out.

Prabhupāda: No, that . . .

Indian man (1): Then what you'll surrender?

Prabhupāda: You are individual soul, part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi.

Indian man (2): When I say: "I surrender you," what "I" means?

Prabhupāda: You are individual soul.

Dr. Patel: You are ego.

Prabhupāda: Not ego. You are individual soul.

Indian man (2): Ego is one part of this.

Prabhupāda: Ego is another covering.

Dr. Patel: Covering of the ego you surrender, then the soul surrenders automatically.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Covering . . . ego is covering of the pure soul. So you are pure soul. That is ahaṁ brahmāsmi. "I am Brahman. I am not this covering." This covering, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca ahaṅkāra (BG 7.4), these are coverings.

Indian man (1): They are coverings.

Prabhupāda: Material. Even up to ahaṅkāra.

Dr. Patel: Saṅghaṭas cetanaṁ dhṛtiḥ.

Prabhupāda: That is, that is also material. So . . . when one realizes that, "I am not this. I am pure soul, part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa," that is . . . that surrender is nice. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati . . . (BG 18.54).

Indian man (1): Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu . . .

Prabhupāda: Mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54).

Dr. Patel: Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu.

Prabhupāda: Yes, samaḥ means he knows that, "All these individual souls, they're all part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa."

Indian man (1): He's fully abiding in him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. So they are, therefore they try, everyone, to bring to Kṛṣṇa. That is service.

Dr. Patel: The asamatā is māyā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: When you consider different . . .

Prabhupāda: So a devotee, therefore, goes everywhere and begs, "Please become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Please become surrendered to Kṛṣṇa." That's all.

Dr. Patel: Yesterday, that film arrived?

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Dr. Patel: I saw it. I saw you dancing also. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Yes. And because I dance, therefore they dance.

Dr. Patel: But that was becoming in America, the last part of it?

Prabhupāda: No. It was in London. Deity installation.

Dr. Patel: He did it very well, the man who edited the film.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that Yadubara. He is very good. Where is Yadubara? He is here? No. His wife. Yes. She's also . . . Viśākhā. They are, husband and wife, both of them, very expert photography.

Dr. Patel: I may now solicit one to the, to the māyā, that karkhana (factory) you have of this.

Prabhupāda: What is that? That is not māyā. (break)

Dr. Patel: . . . we are talking on that. Why not get start it here? In this . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Where are men?

Dr. Patel: I can get the men. Will you? No, then I . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . yukta-vairāgyam ucyate (Brs 1.2.255). Anything which is favorable to our this being Kṛṣṇa conscious, we accept.

Indian man (1): . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Patel: No, we don't want because of factory.

Prabhupāda: They are, they are doing that business not for any individual profit.

Dr. Patel: No, but for the profit of the temple you can have it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: No individual profit.

Prabhupāda: That we can do.

Dr. Patel: We can do it here. I know so many people who, who can . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: Just like we are printing these books. And as soon as we take the bunch of books to any gentleman, he pays immediately eleven hundred. "Take it." Better business. You see? First of all I began business of this, simply by giving the Kṛṣṇa Book.

Dr. Patel: How much money you collected? I am sorry to ask this personal question.

Prabhupāda: How many members we have now?

Bhava-bhūti: Bombay we have . . .

Prabhupāda: All over India.

Dr. Patel: All over India.

Bhava-bhūti: All over India? Well . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . and people very gladly, "What is this?" "Bhāgavata." "All right." "And we have got six copies." "All right, give me six copies." Like that. And they ask, they get down from their car. As soon as they see our saṅkīrtana party's going, "You have got Swami Bhaktivedanta's Bhagavad-gītā As It Is?" "Yes." "Give me." They ask like that. (break) . . . injecting Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Patel: Yes. Makai dhora todta-todta Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . makka ka dhora todte time khet me bhi. (Even while harvesting in a wheat field, one can go on chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa.)

Prabhupāda: That is also required. Then, I mean, tending the cows. You see? We are getting seven hundred pounds milk daily.

Dr. Patel: This was in Los Angeles?

Prabhupāda: Virginia. Virginia (West Virginia). Different branches in different states. And the school is in Texas, Dallas. There is immense potency of increasing this movement in America. Immense potency.

Dr. Patel: In all departments of life you can increase. Even the workers who are . . .

Prabhupāda: No, I say: "Let there be saṅkīrtana in factory."

Dr. Patel: That is what I say. That is what I say.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: We will start such a factory and do it, and it will be an ideal for . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Don't start. Already the factory is there. Go and teach them.

Dr. Patel: Where? In America?

Prabhupāda: Any. Here. There are so many factories.

Dr. Patel: I will let them come and see.

Prabhupāda: If you, actually you are leader, then you induce them to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in the factory.

Indian man (1): Oh, you'll get great sales.

Dr. Patel: Of course, of course. Why not? Why not?

Prabhupāda: Whatever factories are already there, you begin chanting there.

Dr. Patel: Ap na ek model banaiye. (You can make a model.) And then let the fellows follow your model. (break) . . . small model of ten boys, who will go on chanting. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . operating surgical: "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ."

Dr. Patel: I am already model.

Prabhupāda: That's right. (break) . . . coming from the back side. Kṛṣṇa is sometimes white also . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Patel: No, He is white in Kṛta-yuga.

Prabhupāda: Śveta, śveta . . . śuklas te tathā rakta idānīṁ kṛṣṇatāṁ gataḥ (SB 10.8.13). Gargamuni, when he was deliberating on the horoscope of Kṛṣṇa, he said that, "This child formerly had three other colors." Śuklas te tathā rakta. Śuklaḥ pītas tathā rakta idānīṁ kṛṣṇa. Śukla means white.

Dr. Patel: He was white in Kṛta-yuga. In Tretā, He was . . .

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: That is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: And then He was yellow in Dvāpara. And because now He's born in Kali-yuga, He's dark.

Indian man (1): Not Kali-yuga. Dvāpara-yuga. Dvāpara-yuga.

Dr. Patel: Dvāpara and Kali-yuga sandhi.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that means Kṛṣṇa had all the colors. Śuklo raktas tathā pītaḥ.

Dr. Patel: Because all the mūrtis, other mūrtis in big, our temples . . . just like in Dvaraka . . .

Prabhupāda: No, in Gujarat . . .

Dr. Patel: All dark color.

Prabhupāda: That's right. And here, there are white also.

Dr. Patel: Senajī, dark.

Prabhupāda: In the . . .

Indian man (1): Tirupati.

Prabhupāda: Tirupati?

Dr. Patel: This also dark.

Indian man (1): Tirupati's Viṣṇu.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Viṣṇu is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No. I have seen one temple here in Nirguleshwar, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa white.

Dr. Patel: No, Maharashtrian temples are all white, excepting . . . who?

Indian man (1): Viṭṭhala.

Dr. Patel: Vitoba is black.

Prabhupāda: We have black also. Some are black. Some are . . . in Texas, Dallas, we have got black—Kālachanda. Contradiction. Chandjī or Kālajī.

Dr. Patel: What about starting a school of teaching Sanskrit here? There is a . . . I have a . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . have place to stay.

Dr. Patel: You have a place. But in school means . . . I mean, these boys, you miss . . .

Prabhupāda: Now we are introducing Hindi, Gujarati and Maharati speaking. (aside) Where is Manasvī? He has gone?

Devotee: Yes.

Dr. Patel: No, but they must talk with people in their own language. They, even sometimes they don't understand me talking English. Of course, I . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . one has to study grammar for twelve years.

Dr. Patel: How much?

Prabhupāda: Twelve years.

Dr. Patel: Twelve years. Yes.

Prabhupāda: And as soon as one has his mastership on the grammar, he can study all other books.

Dr. Patel: No, he can be a poet then. The Sanskrit language is poetic in a way.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: So if you study grammar properly, and then you can . . . you can just compose poetry. (break)

Prabhupāda: Therefore Lord Brahmā is called Ādi-kavi. Ādi-kavi. Yes.

Dr. Patel: Sanskrit is poetic. You can just compose poetry.

Prabhupāda: Whole Sanskrit language in poetry. Bhagavad-gītā is in poetry. Bhāgavata in poetry. Mahābhārata in poetry.

Dr. Patel: Ninety percent of the Sanskrit literature is in poetry.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why ninety? It may be ninety-nine.

Dr. Patel: No, but some of the . . . Kālidāsa, and, you know . . . they're also composing the ślokas in the . . . but . . .

Prabhupāda: Kālidāsa also in poetry.

Dr. Patel: No, that is certain. Not all. Abhijñāna-śakuntalā is not in poetry.

Prabhupāda: Asti himālaya-nāma na-gadi-rāja. Asti uttana-sana-desi himālaya-nāma na-gadi-raja.

Dr. Patel: What is that? Raghu-vaṁśa.

Prabhupāda: Raghu-vaṁśa. It is Raghu-vaṁśa.

Dr. Patel: I studied his . . .

Prabhupāda: Raghu-vaṁśa and Kumāra-sambhava. We studied some portion.

Dr. Patel: I studied in my college . . . Haridas. (break)

Prabhupāda: Motikama is grammar. Poetry for grammar.

Dr. Patel: Meghadūta I studied. (Sanskrit) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . for materialistic persons.

Dr. Patel: No, but they're also . . . in several places he had entered into high philosophy. It's not only the . . . kavi-dhara . . . there can never be a kavi without philosophy in him.

Prabhupāda: Philosophy. Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: All, even the modern kavis.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Philosophy is the very soul of kavi.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Kavitā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: I have found it out.

Prabhupāda: Compact in thought.

Dr. Patel: I am regularly reading these poetry. There also, in English poetry, you'll see so many . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: One line, two inch, and another line, six inch.

Dr. Patel: And they, they recite poetry in the prosaic way.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: I have actually . . .

Indian man (1): Walt Whitman. Whitman, Whitman. Walt Whitman.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. He's a great poet, American. Our Hayagrīva is very much fond of him. You are also?

Satsvarūpa: Not so much.

Indian man (1): Yes, we must have some poets in this, our congregation.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is poet. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: That is the masterstroke you give. This way.

Prabhupāda: Without being kavi, one cannot become devotee. There are twenty-six qualification of a devotee. One of them is to become kavi.

Dr. Patel: Kavi means the one who knows present, past and future. Is it not?

Prabhupāda: A man of knowledge.

Dr. Patel: And knowledge means this knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Yesterday only you said that in the course, this thing.

Prabhupāda: That is perfect knowledge. Harer nāma harer nāma . . . (CC Adi 17.21).

Dr. Patel: These are, these are joking him, hearing this, you know. Tāny aham . . . uh. Not. What is that? What is the word of that śloka? (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . janma paraṁ janma vivasvataḥ, katham etad vijānīyām (BG 4.4). (break) . . . May, June.

Dr. Patel: (laughs) Yes, May. Mirage in May and also in June. They want to report the . . . May, June, he has . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: The interpreters do like that.

Dr. Patel: May and June.

Prabhupāda: May and June.

Dr. Patel: You see?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: You were born in June?

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Patel: No, which one? Fourth, June . . . and I was born in May, like that. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . Cāṇakya-śloka. The Cāṇakya-śloka has paṇḍitānāṁ guṇāḥ sarve mūrkha doṣair hi kevalam. Pandit ka sab guna hi guna hai. Murkh khali dosha hi dekhta hai. (The scholar is full of good qualities but the fool is able to see only defects in his character.) Now we used to make meaning like this, "A paṇḍita, he is qualified. The only defect is that he's a mūḍha . . . a mūrkha, doṣa, only doṣa."

Dr. Patel: No, Sanskrit, the, you . . . some of the ślokas are so . . . that there is one śloka: keśavaṁ patitaṁ dṛṣṭvā pāṇḍavaḥ sa nirvaraḥ, kaurava hā rudann iti hā hā keśavaṁ ke . . . means water in the water. Sa means that body. That way it is right. But how can Keśava be, rather, falling and Pāṇḍavas would be sa nirvaraḥ? Some reason. (break)

Ambarīṣa: . . . was a . . . did he have some particular pastimes?

Prabhupāda: (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (1): Aj bhi paper me aya tha. (Even today, it came out in the newspaper.)

Prabhupāda: Kya paper me aya tha? (What came out in the newspaper?) (break) Another rascal you told.

Indian man (1): Yes. Correct, correct.

Dr. Patel: Condemn. (break) . . . convert these rascals.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Dr. Patel: In logon ko idhar lake . . . (indistinct) . . . chod dene ka. (Bring those people here and then . . . (indistinct) . . . then leave them.) Nothing to do, and no, no . . . (break) . . . prāṇa, dharma . . .

Prabhupāda: He's no longer existing.

Dr. Patel: Government is not existing even by . . . (indistinct) . . . resident. No, not by . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: There is no . . . (break) They chant very . . . (indistinct) . . . yes. Father, mother is sophisticated. (sound of children talking in Gujarati) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Children: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Haribol!

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everywhere . . . (indistinct) . . . but their father will not say. Harer nāma. (break) We shall wait. (end)