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690609 - Conversation - New Vrindaban, USA

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

690609ME-NEW VRINDAVAN - June 09, 1969 - 63:48 Minutes

Prabhupāda: In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said, ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa ara saba bhṛtya (CC Adi 5.142).

(baby making sounds) (aside) He will disturb.

Īśvara . . . iśvara means master or the controller. Actually only Kṛṣṇa is master. Even Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā or incarnation of Viṣṇu, all of them are, in one sense, even Rādhārāṇī, all are servants. Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa ara saba bhṛtya.

So in that sense, in this New Vrindaban, the master is Kṛṣṇa, and we are all servants. But there are division of duties of the servants, and they should discharge. Just like in our propagation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there are certain duties entrusted to certain devotee, and if he faithfully carries out that duty, that is his perfection. The spiritual master is the representative of Kṛṣṇa, and the duty allotted by him to a certain person, that should be his execution of spiritual duties.

So this New Vrindaban, master is Kṛṣṇa. Now we should specifically divide duties amongst ourselves and discharge such duties faithfully. Then, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, as you are growing up to now, the system and the prescription is very nicely being conducted. And this will help us more and more progress. So in this meeting I think we should allot different kinds of duties to different persons and execute. So you say something.

(break) . . . temple. I don't think it can take more than two hours.

Kīrtanānanda: We are done ārati and kīrtana by seven o'clock in the morning.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then the respective duty can be discharged in two, three hours. That's all. Seven to ten. After taking your breakfast you work up to ten. Then you have got enough time.

Kīrtanānanda: Time for what?

Prabhupāda: Everyone has to make his own routine work, and for chanting and reading and Bhagavad-gītā he requires, say, two to three hours. So we have got twenty-four hours at our disposal. Out of that, six hours or seven hours for sleeping. So still you have got seventeen hours. And three hours devote for chanting and reading. Still you have got fourteen hours.

Kīrtanānanda: But we devote at least five hours to ārati and kīrtana.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Satyabhāmā: Another hour and a half or two hours to prasādam.

Śyāma: Eating?

Satyabhāmā: Yes. To eating prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Two hours for eating?

Paramānanda: Eating and taking rest.

Satyabhāmā: Well, noon prasādam, morning prasādam, milk in the evening.

Paramānanda: Morning and evening, half hour, noon, one hour.

Hayagrīva: Bathing. Bathing takes an hour. An hour . . . (indistinct) . . . bathe.

Prabhupāda: So you want to stop chanting and reading?

Satyabhāmā: No. No. (laughs)

Kīrtanānanda: We don't want to stop chanting. I don't want to. That's not the proposal. The proposal was . . .

Satyabhāmā: Which comes first? If . . . the work seems to have to be done, but the . . .

Prabhupāda: You can forego your sleeping and eating.

Satyabhāmā: Haribol.

Prabhupāda: The Gosvāmīs were doing like that. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. They were discharging their duties, and if sometimes they still could not finish the chanting, they would forego their eating and sleeping. Eating and sleeping, say, seven to nine hours—then we have to sacrifice our sleeping and eating.

Paramānanda: But the Gosvāmīs, they didn't swing axes all day, did they?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (chuckles)

Paramānanda: They didn't do hard physical work.

Prabhupāda: No, they were writing books. So they were writing. You have to manage. You see? How can I suggest, "You can do this, you can do this"? Everyone has to do. Just like I do my work according to my own routine, you see, similarly, one has to . . . but if sometimes, by chance, you do not get any time for reading Bhagavad-gītā, that does not harm very much, because you are already engaged in Bhagavad-gītā.

Any duty here in New Vrindaban . . . just like Kṛṣṇa was inducing Arjuna to fight. That fighting was also within the program of this devotional service. Similarly, anything working within this New Vrindaban, that is also counted reading Bhagavad-gītā. So in some day if you don't find . . . read Bhagavad-gītā, but that chanting must be finished. That is very essential.

Hayagrīva: Can one chant when working?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Chanting is the basic standing of our life.

Kīrtanānanda: I think here, as I look at it, we're spending about five hours a day in ārati and kīrtana, which, I think, is really good, because I think that is the heart of Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the life of Vṛndāvana.

Kīrtanānanda: So I don't want to sacrifice that for anything.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That must be . . .

Kīrtanānanda: That must be there. That's the heart.

Prabhupāda: You can forego even reading Bhagavad-gītā, but that must be continued.

Kīrtanānanda: But now, right now, of course, this is not time for pruning, but I'd like to prune to show people that we really have something.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Kīrtanānanda: It would be nice for our community. It would be nice for the people who visit us so that they'd be able to see that, "Ah, they're able to carry on with their gardening."

Prabhupāda: No. You also require some fruits for your existence also. Kṛṣṇa will like it.

Kīrtanānanda: Actually, it will help morale if they just have a little better prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And now we require some assistants, more assistants. Yes. So Kṛṣṇa will send. Kṛṣṇa will send gradually. You'll have more men here, and engage them.

Devotee (1): Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes?

Devotee (1): This couple who are staying here now with their child, are they going to stay?

Kīrtanānanda: Not that I know of.

Satyabhāmā: Yes. They want to go back to Athens and get their things and then come back here and stay. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . in charge of that particular department? Why it . . . supervision? But casual supervision can be made.

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? I was thinking that so far . . . (break)

Kīrtanānanda: . . . after that? Or does that work better?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Prasādam is finished at two? Then up to four they are free. Or up to . . .? No.

Kīrtanānanda: The way it works out, the afternoon, they never seem to get much done anyway. There's a lot of frustration. Because sometimes I have a feeling like it's a lot of time being wasted, but still it seems very difficult, because you figure . . . well, suppose prasādam were offered at two and you didn't finish up until about three. And then they rest until four. By the time they bathe and everything, it's time to start getting ready for kīrtana.

Hayagrīva: We finished ārati and kīrtana by six o'clock this morning, which means that the early morning prasādam must be ready at six o'clock so we finish by seven and then work from seven to eight to nine to ten to eleven to twelve to one to two. That's eight hours' hard work in the morning. And then the rest of the afternoon off.

Kīrtanānanda: That's all right.

Hayagrīva: But we should get at least eight hours' hard work in on the grounds.

Satyabhāmā: Can the men do that, eight hours' hard work in a row, like that, without a break?

Hayagrīva: Sure. I could.

Paramānanda: That is not enough time, though, in the afternoon for chanting.

Hayagrīva: What do you mean? The whole afternoon . . .

Prabhupāda: That is nice, that in the morning you work, and after prasādam you are at ease, take rest or read or whatever you like.

Hayagrīva: There's plenty of time. From two o'clock until bedtime. That's eight hours. From two to ten. You can't chant sixteen rounds in eight hours?

Paramānanda: Well, I have to begin my duties with the cow at five o'clock. So we'll be finishing prasādam and rest at about four o'clock. That leaves me one hour, which is filled up with other odd chores.

Hayagrīva: Well, then, if you have to take . . . you have an extra hour you have to work in the afternoon. You have an extra hour?

Satyabhāmā: Two hours.

Kīrtanānanda: Since you milk the cows in the evening like that, you could take an hour or so off earlier. That would be all right.

Hayagrīva: Then you can take off at one. If you put in an hour in the afternoon with the cow, then take off an hour from one to two to chant.

Satyabhāmā: Then we have from seven to eight.

Kīrtanānanda: We'll try it that way.

Hayagrīva: Sometimes we're so slow getting started in the morning.

Paramānanda: It's not enough time because . . . that is, if the morning, the entire morning, is to be allotted to the major tasks . . . 'cause the thing is, I find, that there are many, many time-consuming little chores to be done, that without which New Vrindaban would be a mess. There are so many little tasks to be done. (break)

Hayagrīva: I'm president.

Prabhupāda: You are the president. And who is secretary?

Hayagrīva: Śyāma dāsī is secretary.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: Śyāma dāsī.

Prabhupāda: Śyāma dāsī, secretary. And who is treasurer?

Hayagrīva: Hṛṣīkeśa.

Prabhupāda: Hṛṣīkeśa. And what is Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja's position?

Hayagrīva: He is maṭha commander?

Devotee (1): Prime minister.

Śyāma: Advisor. Advisor?

Hayagrīva: General advisor, maṭha commander.

Prabhupāda: The maṭha commander . . . of course, so far the management of the New Vrindaban affairs is concerned, that is within maṭha commander's jurisdiction?

Hayagrīva: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Maṭha commander means the . . . everything of that place under his command.

Hayagrīva: That's not good. Then advisor is better. Advisor would be better.

Prabhupāda: Advisor means his advice will be final?

Hayagrīva: Advice final? That means the advice would be depending on the president.

Prabhupāda: Confirmed by the president. So honorary advisor. Advice gratis?

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: (chuckling) No. Another thing is that, as I suggested, that Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, being sannyāsī, he should be given the top post to give honor to the position of a sannyāsī. Otherwise, in our Society there is no meaning of a sannyāsī.

Hayagrīva: So you want him to be president?

Prabhupāda: I think he should be, like that. You become secretary, and Śyāma dāsī become assistant secretary. Of course, everything should be decided in a meeting, and president maybe have as a casting vote, but the decision of the meeting will be actually the decision. Not that president autocracy. No. Or he may be president, you may be vice president and others, Śyāma dāsī, secretary, and treasurer he is. From sampradāya point of view, sannyāsī has to be given the top post. Do you think he will overrule you? (laughs)

Hayagrīva: Well, I have to make one request on that.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Hayagrīva: That I not stay here.

Prabhupāda: You do not stay here?

Hayagrīva: Yes. I don't want to stay.

Prabhupāda: Unless you become president?

Hayagrīva: Unless I am in charge, I don't want to stay. I mean there are too many responsibilities that I've already assumed, and not to have the decisions as to what to do with the vehicles, what to do with this, what to do with that, I'd rather not have any part of it.

Prabhupāda: No, anyone who can manage everything, he should be in charge of the whole thing.

Hayagrīva: Well, factually he's in charge. Actually, we very seldom have any disagreements on things.

Prabhupāda: All right. That's all right. Then you remain president. And let him become vice president. That will be all right? In case of your absence, he will preside in the meeting. Will that be all right?

Hayagrīva: No, that's all right, as long as I have final decision in certain matters, as to what to do with my vehicles, what to do with this and what to do with that.

Prabhupāda: No, you will hold meeting and decide in that meeting. If you form a committee, then whatever you do, something serious, you should consult the committee and do it.

Hayagrīva: Well, you make the final decision. You can have anybody you want in charge here. I just make a request, personal request, that I not stay here. That's all. So I mean you can put anybody you want in charge. What I have given of the place is yours. I don't even care to have it.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) This is not a good proposal. Then where you want to stay?

Hayagrīva: I'd like to go to India. Or maybe I could travel with you. That would be nice.

Prabhupāda: No. That is not good idea. You have started this New Vrindaban, you must finish it. So you must be in charge of this place. We have to do so many things. So . . .

Hayagrīva: What about . . . why can't two people be in charge? Why can't we both . . .?

Prabhupāda: No. Then he will work as vice president? Or what do you want? Temple command?

Hayagrīva: I don't know. The title doesn't make any difference. The title doesn't matter. It's just that we agree on . . . we agree on basic issues which I think that we should agree on, not that an issue comes up, and I have one idea about it, and he says, "No. I want it this way," and I can't do anything about it. For instance, say I don't want to cut down the tree there, and he says the tree must be cut down. That doesn't leave me anywhere. See? That leaves me to say, well . . . he can pull rank on me, which is something . . . I mean I'd just as soon not be involved.

Prabhupāda: So you disagree in every point?

Hayagrīva: Not every point. We don't often disagree. But I might want this tree to be left here.

Prabhupāda: Or what you decide and he must disagree that? Whatever you decide, and Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja must disagree with that point? Is that the situation?

Hayagrīva: That's not necessarily so.

Prabhupāda: But suppose if Kīrtanānanda says: "Then I'll leave this place," then what will be the situation? As you say that, "Unless I am in charge, I leave this place," similarly, if he says that, "If I am not in charge, then I will leave this place," so would you like that he should leave this place?

Hayagrīva: No.

Prabhupāda: Then both of you are required. Then how you can say that, "I'll leave this place," how he can say he'll leave? You must jointly work, because both of you, you have started this New Vrindaban, and you have to work jointly. There may be sometimes disagreement, but you should settle up. Otherwise how you can make progress? He's a sannyāsī.

He has got the right to travel. That is his business. He can go and preach. That is actually his business. His business is not to stay any place. Just like I am also, in this old age, I am traveling, parivrājaka. So if you think that you can do without him, then he can travel, and sometimes he may come here.

Hayagrīva: Well, I think he's necessary here. Definitely we need him here.

Prabhupāda: So if his presence is necessary, then he is a sannyāsī—he should be given some responsible post. And if he is not necessary, then his main business is to go. Now, if I . . . I am getting older. If he travels all over the centers and sees as superintendent what things are going on, that will be also nice. And in my absence he can deliver speech, and in that way he can get experience.

Now he went to North Carolina. He did nicely. So . . . I know that both of you are required here to develop this center. Not that if you say, "I go," and if he says he goes, then this place, the advancement which is progressing, this will be stopped. It is now in the nascent stage. You should not neglect now. You should work conjointly.

Hayagrīva: Well, what do you want to do, Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja? You have no preference at all.

Kīrtanānanda: No.

Prabhupāda: What does he say?

Hayagrīva: He says he has no preference at all.

Prabhupāda: So . . . but you require his assistance also.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So I think . . . then the difficulty is that you say that whatever you decide, he says no?

Hayagrīva: If I don't want this tree to be cut down and he says, "Cut down the tree," does the tree get cut down? (Prabhupāda laughs) That's what I want to know. I say: "I want this tree to stay here." He says: "We want to burn it for firewood." Now does the tree stay, or does it go?

Prabhupāda: (laughing) Well, if this is the position, it is very difficult to solve. (laughing) You want to stay, and he wants to burn it. (laughing)

Hayagrīva: Yes. I mean, it will come down to something very basic like this, something very simple.

Kīrtanānanda: Yes, simple.

Hayagrīva: Now you said that according to you it should be burned. According to you . . . if the president is in charge, then if he says to cut it down, it gets cut down.

Prabhupāda: No. The committee. The majority decision will be . . .

Hayagrīva: That's democracy. That's democracy. That's no good.

Prabhupāda: Democracy? This is the age of . . .

Hayagrīva: I thought you said we should have enlightened monarchy. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: No. Monarchy is out of date now. When you form a committee . . . but what can I say? If you disagree in that way, then . . . if you have to live together, you have to work together—if you disagree in that way, it will be a difficult job.

Hayagrīva: Well, I don't care. I'll leave it up to you then. I'll leave it up to you. You can do what you want.

Prabhupāda: No . . . you . . . my . . . I have explained. He is . . . as a sannyāsī, he should live everywhere temporarily, just like I live temporarily. Aniketa. A sannyāsī should not have a permanent place. Anywhere he goes, temporary. So because you think that his service is required, then he should remain here.

Otherwise, as he has accepted sannyāsa order, he should travel, go and preach. And especially nowadays, I cannot go everywhere; he can go, and he can recruit members. He can make propaganda of New Vrindaban to many persons, to the, I mean to say, foundations. As I have suggested, make pamphlet. So he can do outside work very nicely for developing Vrindaban.

Hayagrīva: How much of his time do you think should be spent doing this?

Prabhupāda: Which one?

Hayagrīva: Preaching and traveling.

Prabhupāda: He should always preach and travel. Always. There is immense field here. He should convince people that we are developing such a center. And you make a nice literature, picture. You go. He is educated. He is intelligent. He has studied our philosophy. He can go and speak.

Hayagrīva: But he shouldn't stay here at all?

Prabhupāda: No. He can come. He stay for some time and go, in that way. That . . . when he comes here, you take his advice, what to do, and then you execute in that way. The final is yourself, whatever you do. He will come and . . . now, for developing this center we must require so many things. So he can do the outside work.

Hayagrīva: Well, I mean, I don't care that much. If you want to put him in charge . . .

Prabhupāda: That is . . . no. So far, if you ask my advice, he should do that work, outside propaganda, preaching. But as you say that his presence is required, therefore I say he may remain here. Otherwise, to remain here is not his duty as a sannyāsī. That is actually your duty, to organize the local management and everything.

And his duty is outside work, preaching. He may have one assistant, and he can travel. He can educate your countrymen that, "Here is a nice thing we are developing. Please come and cooperate." Invite him, and when he comes, you receive him and give him good reception. In this way you have to make propaganda, outside and inside.

Just like Kṛṣṇa is making outside and inside propaganda. Inside He is Supersoul—outside He is spiritual master to reclaim these fallen souls. Similarly, we should also work outside-inside. And for making outside propaganda, I think he will be the best man. Suppose if he goes to New York, stays for some time, sees respectable foundation and presidents and just to attract their attention this side . . .

Similarly, if he goes Los Angeles, San Francisco, all other cities, Boston, and sees important men, makes propaganda that, "We are doing this. Please come and help," that will be very nice. Arrange lectures from . . . our local temples may arrange lectures, and he can impress people about the importance of this movement. Not only one; I require several such preachers now. Now we are improving. We are increasing our propaganda. We require several such assistants.

Those who have decided to remain brahmacārī, some of them, those who are experienced, they can accept this sannyāsa order and preach. Outside propaganda is also required. Don't you think? Outside propaganda?

Hayagrīva: Well, I don't know if it's that important. I think more important than that is that he develop the place.

Prabhupāda: So he'll remain.

Hayagrīva: I mean, actually I think that's good at the beginning, but there's still a degree . . .

Prabhupāda: His outside work means developing this place, but not by remaining here. He may come, remain here. Say for three months he remains, and again he goes three months outside. Again he comes one month. Why three months? One month here, again goes out; two months outside, again comes. He sees how things are going on.

He can suggest, "You do like this. You can do like this." And you execute with your assistance. Will not that be nice? He gives your suggestion that, "You should . . ." He can give yourself that, "You burn this tree." But if you like, you can burn. Otherwise you don't burn.

Kīrtanānanda: Haribol.

Prabhupāda: But if he remains here, you say: "It must remain," he says: "It must be burned," and then there will be kalaha, quarrel. You see? Better you let him travel, and when he comes, if he gives his suggestion that, "This tree should be burned," and now you decide whether it should be burned or should remain. And if he works outside, then we can very quickly develop, because we get outside sympathy for developing this center. I think that should be the way. What it is bringing?

Śyāma: Paper.

Prabhupāda: Some paper. (laughs) So inside-outside work must be done. Bahyābhyantaram śuciḥ. You know that verse?

apavitraḥ pavitro vā
sarvāvasthaṁ gato 'pi vā
yaḥ smaret puṇḍerīkākṣam
sa bahyābhyantaram śuciḥ
(Garuḍa Purāṇa)

So we have to develop this center from outside work and inside work. Outside work means to draw sympathy of the people, to draw money for development. This is also required. We have got a very big scheme. It is not possible that by one man's earning we can do that. It is not possible. We require millions of dollars for developing. If we want to construct here temples, at least seven temples, nicely, so that requires huge amount.

So outsiders' sympathy must be there. There is no scarcity of money in your country. Simply they have to be educated that, "We are doing something very nice. Please come and help." And that will be nice, in my opinion, that let him come, stay here for one month, again go out for two months, again come here. And he sees how things are going on. He suggests. Now you decide whether his suggestion will be accepted or not. Then I am there, of course. If there is some suggestion, good suggestion. then my order will be final. Yes. In that way we have to develop this.

Hayagrīva: Well, are you leaving the decision up to me, or what? Are you leaving the decision up to me?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Local management, your decision, yes.

Hayagrīva: No, I mean whether he's to stay here or to travel or what.

Prabhupāda: No. Your decision is all right, but now he can give you some suggestion. Actually, when you are in charge of, your decision will be alright. But just like we make a plan. That is not one man's decision, that is the Society's decision. Suppose if we want to construct a temple here. So in this way we have to cooperate. Otherwise, how it can be developed?

Hayagrīva: I'd rather not be totally in charge, because it's too much work. I mean, I don't want to be in that sense responsible for the whole thing.

Prabhupāda: Then in your absence this secretary will do or this maṭha command will do.

Hayagrīva: Beg pardon?

Prabhupāda: Maṭha command will be Hṛṣīkeśa.

Hayagrīva: Maṭha commander?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now you want to stay here. You are not staying here?

Hayagrīva: I'll be staying here . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right.

Hayagrīva: . . . permanently, temporarily at least, for a while.

Prabhupāda: Then? Why temporarily? You can . . . as gṛhastha, you can build a small house and stay with your wife and children. You remain the president of this center. That will be nice. Yes. As there are many . . . in all centers there is one president, similarly, you remain president of this center.

Hayagrīva: Well, what happens when I leave? Then if he's not here and I leave, what happens then?

Prabhupāda: Then the maṭha command, secretary. Not with you, not that all, everyone, is leaving. You may leave sometimes. You want to go to your college, university, like that?

Hayagrīva: Well, I'll be gone every week, about half a week, for the whole school year. So somebody has to be here to take charge for three days out of the every . . . I'm at least gone three days, at least.

Prabhupāda: So then the Paramānanda is there, and he is there. They are not fools. They are also intelligent. They can manage.

Hayagrīva: Well, whatever situation you want to set up.

Prabhupāda: No, no, I think this will be nice, because if he does outside propaganda, that will help development of this center. You make nice, what is called, prospectus? I gave you the idea, that what is the idea of this center, and make plans and where we want to construct temple, the, what is called, design of the temple, and make nicely and put before the people. And they have already known that Kṛṣṇa conscious movement is going on. So there are so many rich people in our country. If somebody comes forward, we can make very nice progress very quickly.

So we have to make some propaganda amongst them. Actually it is the nicest possible thing. Simply they have to be convinced. That's a fact. Nobody can challenge our sincerity and our purity in this world. Let anyone come, any so-called society, yoga society, this society, this, that. The best thing we are presenting. There is no doubt about it.

Now people has to know it. How to make it known? We have to go to the newspaper man, magazine man, to the Foundations. So one responsible . . . one? Why one? Two, three men must move amongst them. And whenever required, if some big meeting is arranged, then I also go.

People should know about our activities. We are not bogus thing. We are not that Maharshi Mahesh that, "I give you something private, and give me some money." We are not that. We have got philosophy. We have got program. We have got authorities. So we must let people know the importance of this movement. What do you think, Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja?

Kīrtanānanda: Haribol.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Well, I think . . .

Prabhupāda: You have to sometimes go also.

Hayagrīva: Well, I think that until things are set in motion here . . . but I mean I don't know. Actually, he does most of the supervision here, and things aren't in motion. I'm at a loss. I don't like to get people down and get them to do their job.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. In the meantime, you prepare the literature. You give me the literature, I'll get it printed somehow or other. You give me the synopsis. Both you consult, make a literature. And as soon as the literature is prepared, you will be out with that. And we have got so many centers. There is no difficulty of staying. He can stay in some center and go and see the important men there.

He is educated. He is learned. He has known our philosophy. He can convince people. He can arrange a big meeting of respectable men. They must know what we are doing, the importance of this movement. And your people, your government, is anxious to have something tangible, because there are already frustration in so many departments, in so many faction.

So this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, will, I mean to say, smooth everything, pave everything. So they must know. And our process is very simple. We can introduce this process even in factories, even in anywhere, and we make peaceful everything. That is a fact. School, college, university, factory, everywhere. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ (CC Antya 20.12, Śikṣāṣṭaka 1). It is cleansing process. Everything is dirty. So we want to cleanse and make people peaceful and happy. That is our mission. We are not money-collecting mission that, "Give me your money, and let me enjoy." We are not that. Money . . . we have got much money. Kṛṣṇa is our . . . the whole money is Kṛṣṇa's. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ (BG 6.22). Kṛṣṇa is so valuable, if one gets Kṛṣṇa, he wants no more anything. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi (CC Madhya 22.42) "I am now satisfied. I don't want anything." Like Dhruva Mahārāja. So you are giving Kṛṣṇa so that people will be so happy he will say: "Oh, I don't want anything. Now I have got the thing." You are distributing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te (CC Madhya 19.53).

Caitanya Mahaprabhu was adored by Rūpa Gosvāmī, "Oh, You are the most munificent incarnation. You are distributing kṛṣṇa-prema." So we have taken that job. So people must know our importance. So outside propaganda is required. Don't you think it is required? Yes.

So make literature. Make nice literature with this picture, we get it printed, and then, in the meantime, you try to see things, how it can be managed. And let him move outside. As I am moving, he will move. And if some other boys who are determined to remain brahmacārī, not to marry, they can also take up. Brahmācari and sannyāsī is meant for moving. Yes.

Gṛhastha cannot move because they have to earn. They have to maintain. But the brahmacārīs, they will go and beg contribution. A sannyāsī will make the situation favorable. Just like if now a little more Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is known, if some brahmacārī goes that, "We come from the . . ."

Just like in San Francisco it happened. One of our brahmacārī was arrested. So when he was taken into police custody, the officer said: "Oh, he is Swāmī's man. Let him go. Let him go out." Yes. Actually happened so. Similarly, in New York also happened. They were arrested in the subways, and when they were taken in the police custody, he also, "Oh, they are doing nice work. Let them go." (chuckling)

So we must make the situation—people will know that, "They are doing some good work." And when the brahmacārīs go there to beg some contribution, they will be glad, "Oh, yes, they are doing nice work." So we have to do outside propaganda. First of all you make this literature, as I suggested. That you have got. You consult, both together. You do it, and I shall get it printed, at least a few thousand, five thousand or ten thousand. And then Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja will go to stay in every center for some days and make . . . see the important men and convince. That is necessary.

(aside) Give me water.

Hayagrīva: So when should this be started?

Prabhupāda: As soon as the literature is prepared. Huh?

Kīrtanānanda: In the meantime we'll work on something.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You finish it and give me. I will get it printed, and then he goes. In the meantime you . . . so he remains as consultant. Your proposal, that you remain president, he is secretary, and treasurer, and he is consultant so long he is here and when he comes.

Hayagrīva: So he can be . . . he'll be general supervisor?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Naturally when he comes, he becomes overhead everyone, when he comes, because he is a sannyāsī. Just like here, when I am present, you take all final decision from me, so that should be the honor of the sannyāsī. But he should actually . . . he is not in charge of this place. Just like in other centers the president, secretary, are in charge.

Hayagrīva: So that's not called maṭha commander; that's called general supervisor.

Prabhupāda: He will be, for the time being, the superintendent of the Society. He will go everywhere and see and report me what . . . how things are going on. And then we are going to make a central committee gradually. Everything will be done. Let us work very seriously and sincerely. Everything will come out.

Hayagrīva: So then Śyāma dāsī is our treasurer . . . secretary.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And he is treasurer, Hṛṣīkeśa?

Hayagrīva: He's treasurer and temple commander.

Prabhupāda: No, what . . .? You president, she is secretary, and then? Treasurer?

Hayagrīva: He could be also vice president or temple . . . well, there has to be a second charge, another person in charge.

Prabhupāda: That you select, who should be vice president.

Hayagrīva: Temple commander.

Prabhupāda: No. Because you are president, you can select out of all the workers . . .

Hayagrīva: Not many.

Prabhupāda: . . . who will be nicely representing you. That's your trust.

Hṛṣīkeśa: There will be more workers. More will come. There are more people coming all the time, aren't they?

Hayagrīva: Well, if they'll stay on a permanent basis.

Devotee: Why not? It's such a nice place.

Hayagrīva: Yeah, but I mean all this time we only . . . we don't have . . . not many on a permanent basis.

Devotee: You won't be leaving until September. You won't be leaving until September?

Hayagrīva: Well, I don't know. I may. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . Kali-yuga, everything should be managed by society. In Bhāgavata also. Yes.

Hayagrīva: Oh, democracy. In Kali-yuga, democracy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Society. Body.

Hayagrīva: This is not best. This is not best. You mention that in the books, that this is not very good.

Prabhupāda: This is not very good in this sense . . . but at that time one man was so advanced, his order was perfect. Actually these kings like Mahārāja Parīkṣit and others, they were consulting learned brahmins, not that they were actually autocrat. No. They used to consult how the government should be conducted.

Kīrtanānanda: They had a council of brāhmins.

Prabhupāda: Yes, council of brahmins. Yes. The brahmins, they are not politicians, but they would give from śāstra direction, "You are a king. You do like this."

Kīrtanānanda: There were instances when the king wouldn't follow the brāhmiṇs, so they were thrown out, weren't they?

Prabhupāda: Yes. There were such instances also. Just like Prthu Mahārāja. His father was dethroned. I think same thing was in England also, the knights. If they liked, they dethroned the king.

Kīrtanānanda: Not exactly the knights. They were more . . .

Prabhupāda: Noblemen. Yes. The knights are different?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Knights were fighting men.

Satyabhāmā: They're warriors. Knights were like kṣatriya.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh. And noblemen?

Kīrtanānanda: They were the lords. They were . . .

Satyabhāmā: There were no brāhmins, though. (laughs)

Śyāma: There were bishops.

Kīrtanānanda: Not exactly brāhmins. They were proprietors of large tracts of land, and they were responsible for giving protection to a certain number of people under them.

Prabhupāda: Aristocrats. The same system the Britishers introduced in India also. They were called zamindari. (break) That is sannyāsī's business.

Hayagrīva: I see somebody's going to get stuck with a lot of traveling tickets.

Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇa will provide. That doesn't matter. You see?

Hayagrīva: So I want to make certain that this is your . . .

Prabhupāda: Sometimes I think that "I came here with no money, and now I am spending so much money in traveling." (laughter) Aeroplanes. As soon as I get on aeroplane, immediately two hundred dollars. And not only I am; my assistant also. So Kṛṣṇa will provide. That doesn't matter.

Hayagrīva: This is the way, I mean, you want it. I don't quite understand . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. I think . . . no . . . you see, if we actually serious about developing this place, then we must do propaganda work outside also. Not only inside management, but outside also, we should draw the sympathy of the people. Don't you think it is necessary?

Hayagrīva: It's necessary.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: But my question was that I won't get any cooperation from people if they think that my being in charge here is a concession. You see? I won't get any cooperation from anyone.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. It is not concession, it's necessary. One man must be in charge of this place. So you don't think like that. Everyone will cooperate. Why not? It is Kṛṣṇa's. Nobody is actually the in-charge. Kṛṣṇa is in charge. We are simply assisting Kṛṣṇa. In that spirit we shall work.

Hayagrīva: Well, it's almost impossible to be in charge.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is in charge. What do you think, Śyāma dāsī?

Śyāma: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is in charge.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is in charge. Everyone should think that, "I am acting to satisfy Kṛṣṇa." That's it. And you . . . immediately you make that literature for outside propaganda, the aims and objects of what we want to do, and the plan, entire plan, where we want to . . . so long I am here, at least you make a plan, and I give you instructions where to construct which temple, the design of the temple, guesthouse. In this way we make a plan. Have you got an entire plan of this land?

Kīrtanānanda: No. But I can get one.

Prabhupāda: You get it. Then I give you direction and make it nicely, and you print it, nice paper. We have to make propaganda.

Hayagrīva: Well, in order to develop the place properly, we're going to need people who are dedicating themselves, not just fly-by-night, people who come and stay for a week and then go.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they will come.

Hayagrīva: But we're going to need people who stay here permanently.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Some people will . . . at least fifty men should live here permanently. That I shall arrange.

Hayagrīva: Fifty.

Prabhupāda: Fifty at least. Otherwise this big property, how it can be managed? At least fifty men. At least. It may go to two hundred.

Kīrtanānanda: On this property?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: Haribol.

Prabhupāda: This whole property. We have to manage so many temples.

Kīrtanānanda: The conservation people estimate that this land will support eighteen people.

Hayagrīva: Well, that's materialists.

Kīrtanānanda: Thirty people, I think.

Hayagrīva: That's a materialistic calculation.

Kīrtanānanda: So if you want one cow for every person, it would only support eighteen cows.

Prabhupāda: Eighteen cows? The whole property?

Kīrtanānanda: If you want them to be self-sufficient, then you have to grow grain for them for the winter.

Prabhupāda: All right. Let eighteen people first of all. Then we shall share, eighteen people. You see?

Hayagrīva: One cow per person? We're all going to end up with the gout.

Prabhupāda: No. They don't calculate one cow, one person. They calculate only cow. And that does not mean eighteen persons will only remain.

Hayagrīva: I think a cow can do four or five people nicely.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? No . . . I calculated, one cow per one person means the milk products he can sell, he can get other necessities of life in that way. Yes. And otherwise, one cow's milk, it can be shared by ten people at least.

Hayagrīva: So eighteen cows, that's 180 people. I mean, could support that many people on the farm.

Prabhupāda: Not support.

Devotee: Give them milk.

Hayagrīva: Oh, give them milk.

Prabhupāda: Milk, yes. Milk products.

Kīrtanānanda: I think you could keep fifty cows on this property if you bought your grain and hay from outside.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we have to do. We cannot get everything. If we construct temple, we will require so many things. It is not possible to be self-sufficient within this land. We have to get so many things outside. That means we have to get money from outside. Yes.

Satyabhāmā: Can we put requests in the next news, next New Vrindaban newsletter, for people who . . . devotees who are interested that they should come?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satyabhāmā: Because many people don't know that they can come, that there's any facility or that they are wanted here.

Hayagrīva: Well, there is no facility actually.

Prabhupāda: Now first of all . . .

Satyabhāmā: The barn.

Prabhupāda: . . . repair that barn immediately so you can . . . at least ten people can live there.

Satyabhāmā: If there were people here, then facilities could be built. But if there are no people . . .

Prabhupāda: You'll get everything, men and money both.

Hayagrīva: Have you any plans yet to go to England? Is anything definite?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That plan is pending. But I have just now received letter from Mukunda that they are negotiating three houses. Out of that, one they must get. And if they invite me, then I shall go. That is already settled. But I don't wish to go unless they have got their own house. I have waited so long, so I don't wish to go as a third person. I must go . . . just like I have come here definite, New Vrindaban; similarly, when they get nice temple, I go and open it.

Kīrtanānanda: Then it may be some time yet.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) And that Mātājī, she has taken land. I don't like that idea. Some Hindus are supporting. I don't want a Hindu temple. Our constitution is different. We want everyone. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is for everyone. It is not a Hindu propaganda. People may not misunderstand. And actually, till now in our Society there is not a single other Hindu than me. (laughter) Is that not? Is there any Hindu?

Devotee: Sarvesvar?

Prabhupāda: Sarvesvar, he is not living in the temple.

Satyabhāmā: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa in Montreal.

Prabhupāda: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, yes. Yes.

Hayagrīva: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa? Where is he?

Prabhupāda: He is in Montreal.

Satyabhāmā: And Malvani. Malvani, the old man.

Prabhupāda: Malvani, he is not disciple.

Satyabhāmā: He's living in the house.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is living, and he is doing service. He is almost disciple. Yes. He came to Buffalo and Boston. But I don't think he can follow the four principles. He is meat-eater, because his family eats meat.

Kīrtanānanda: I've never been able to figure that out, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Kīrtanānanda: The Hindus, they think it is such a tremendous thing to give up meat-eating, and here we have been raised with meat-eating, and we have no problem whatever. To us it is nothing to give up . . .

Prabhupāda: No. There is no problem for Vaiṣṇava here in India (America). They are not trained. They are simply . . . just like there are so many Christians, practically they are not following. Similarly, these Hindus at the present moment, they are in name. Either Hindus, Muslim, or . . . they are in name only.

Kīrtanānanda: There's no real substance.

Prabhupāda: No.

Kīrtanānanda: When one starts tasting the real substance, then there is no problem giving up any of the . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. When he gives importance to Kṛṣṇa, he can sacrifice everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is another state. That is not ordinary stage. That is transcendental state. Yes.

Hayagrīva: You mentioned with the payments . . .

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said that veda mukha mane . . . veda viruddha kārya kare, veda mukhe mane (CC Madhya 19.146) "They do everything against Vedas, but they say that 'We are following. We are followers of the Vedic religion.' " What is that?

Hayagrīva: You said that with the payments, that the Society can take up some of these? How would that be managed, and when would it be put into effect? Because there is a payment this August for five hundred dollars.

Prabhupāda: So, we'll have to manage. You are making that document transferred to the Society?

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So give that, and we shall manage.

Devotee: It's twenty after six now. Shall we have kīrtanas?

Prabhupāda: All right. All right. Let us . . . (end)