701107 - Conversation - Bombay
Prabhupāda: These are also done within these five years.
Guest (1): And that, too, in the foreign countries, to establish that, it is . . .
Guest (2): Yes, it's a wonderful thing. I was all the while imagining, imagining . . .
Prabhupāda: So I went in USA without any sponsor. No, I . . . that is the . . . one gentleman sponsored for one month. One month only. Not even one month; I remained there only three weeks, and then I chalked out my plan. He was my friend's son, and my friend wrote him that, "You sponsor Swāmījī for one month."
Guest (1): Some American gentleman?
Prabhupāda: No, Indian. One gentleman from Agra. So his son immediately sent me, sponsoring. But still, the government objected that, "We cannot allow you to go there, because you are sponsored by an individual person." But I wanted to see chief controller of . . . what is called, foreign exchange, Mr. Rao. So he kindly accepted, "Yes, Swāmījī, you can go." He fought . . . (indistinct)
Guest (2): That time it was very difficult. Passport I have got already.
Prabhupāda: Passport, visa.
Guest (2): Now, the difficulty is about visa only. Passport I have secured. It's cleared it for three years . . . (indistinct) . . . passport. Now it is easy to get a passport. I do possess. After getting the passport I wrote and corresponded with your . . .
Prabhupāda: So there was no money with me, and in an awkward position . . . my philosophy is completely different. I was to ask them to cease from four kinds of sinful activities, and they are habituated to these things. Illicit sex, and drinking wine, and intoxication and gambling—these are their daily affairs. So I was thinking, "I have to stop this. Who will hear me?" But Kṛṣṇa . . . everything became . . .
Guest (1): May I ask one thing? How you chose this America to be your first?
Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja ordered me that, "You go and preach this cult amongst the English-speaking public, and especially in the Western countries." So first of all I thought of London, where is London. But I had no money. So I got the opportunity of going U.S.A. free on the, on a trade ship by the Scindia Steam Navigation. They gave me their first-class cabinet, the proprietor's cabinet. I was well carried. But first of all I went free on a steamship. I had no money, what to speak of aeroplane. So . . . what was your question?
Guest (1): My question was that how you selected America to be your first . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. So I got the opportunity to go to America because their ship goes to New York. So I accepted, "All right, we can see, either go to London or New York." New York is better place than London.
Guest (1): I see. There are number of Indians in New York. In New York, Indians are . . .
Prabhupāda: No. In London there are many Indians.
Guest (1): In London, they say, there are about twelve lakhs of Indians in London.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many Indians. In the street you will find it is just like ordinary Indian city. (Hindi: Please take a seat.)
Guest (3): (indistinct) . . . He's my old friend.
Guest (4): We both are coming from Horir, leaving Delhi after . . . (indistinct) . . . We are interested in this Gītā-jayantī Mahotsava, and we shall be more interested in you also. You are coming . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Guest (4): So this is Sudhir Kumar Sharma. He's an . . . a learned man. He has brought this tape recorder. He has come to tape your interview. Last night we met Mr. Ja.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Guest (4): And he has permitted us to tape your interview for our paper. So if you don't mind, we shall ask some questions.
Guest (4): And we'll finish before you go there.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. No, my men will go. Even if I am a little late, it doesn't matter. (to devotees) So you go there and join at night. Then I will come in.
Guest (4): (indistinct) . . . America from the last five, six years back and incorporated this Kṛṣṇa conscious movement there. That means to say that it is Kṛṣṇa alone, it is bhakti of Kṛṣṇa alone through which you can have God realization, and Kṛṣṇa alone . . . (indistinct) . . . servant of Lord Kṛṣṇa and . . .
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is God. People are searching after "Where is God?"—but they are missing Kṛṣṇa. That is the dilemma of the present society.
Guest (4): You have written number of books also . . . (indistinct) . . . volumes are there. It is not only appealing to your eyes but to your heart and to your soul. By the very look of the book, our heart is . . . rather, our soul is elated, and we come into that state of mind. Huh? So after reading this, we don't know what stage will come. See how beautiful . . . (indistinct)
Guest (5): (indistinct) . . . Will they be answering in Hindi or English?
Prabhupāda: Which one?
Guest (5): This gentleman. You'll be answering in Hindi or English?
Prabhupāda: As you like.
Guest (5): They know Hindi.
Guest (6): (Hindi: We know hindi. You may ask. We know somewhat.)
Guest (7): No, no. If you want to put questions in English, Swāmījī will reply in English. If you want to put in Hindi, hope . . . Yesterday I heard him in Hindi, I had the good fortune, and I can say with my understanding that he is equally past master in Hindi, although . . . (laughter) Yesterday we had the good occasion and the good fortune of hearing him in Hindi as well . . . (indistinct)
Guest (8): Disciples will speak English only.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they do not speak.
Guest (8): They probably don't know Hindi.
Guest (7): And I will also give you one song, you see, so that you may know that collection is me . . . as a memory for me of my great svami, for whom I was always thinking for the last more than six months.
Guest (6): . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi: My father taught me since my childhood . . .) I was born, Vaiṣṇava family. My father was a great devotee. Naturally, he gave me . . . oh, I am speaking in Hindi . . . English. (Hindi: Father gave me knowledge about this path. He gave me Radha-Krsna deities during my childhood . . . (indistinct) . . . Father taught me how to play mrdanga. So whatever my father taught me during my childhood, I am preaching all about it over the world. Rathayatra is held in European countries and many foreign countries. Like in San Francisco, London . . . (indistinct) . . . 25 to 30 thousand foreigners gather and distribute prasadam. There is 40 to 42 temples of Radha-Govinda deities. There is Radha-Krsna temple everywhere. So the number of disciples we have they follow ethics, behavior and virtue from the Vedic rules. They do Bhagavad kirtan and the books I have given to them . . . those thick books . . . I have given at least 12 to 16 books. They read all day and night. So whatever my father and Guru Maharaj taught me, I am preaching those same things. I have seen that these foreign countries have accepted this literature.)
Guest (6): (Hindi: The experience you have about Hindu dharma . . . (indistinct) . . .)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi: . . . (indistinct) . . . they have Christian, Jewish dharma.) They are not attracted to the Hindu dharma.
Guest (6): Then why they attracted to Hare Rāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: They are attracted to Kṛṣṇa. These people, they are (Hindi: Attracted to Krsna not to Hindu Dharma. In foreign countries their idea was that there are many Gods in Hindu dharma . . . (indistinct) . . . God does not have any form. He is formless Let us accept one form of God. I preached that kind of philosophy that God is formless. Just listen first . . . (indistinct) . . . Hindu people have a lot of God. And the impression becomes for any foreigner coming to Gita Bhavan, there are so many Gods. There is Brahma, Siva . . . everyone is God. The Hindu dharma which is present they are not interested. They want to glorify Krsna.). But you are taking Kṛṣṇa as Hindu. That is your mistake. Kṛṣṇa is . . . Hindu ne. He is God. He is God. God Hindu ne, Mussulman ne, Christian ne, Parsi ne—God is God. (Hindi: . . . (indistinct) . . . It is not that there is plenty of Gods . . . (indistinct) . . . That's why they are not attracted to Hindu dharma. Try to understand. They are attracted to Krsna.) And I am also not interested to preach Hindu dharma. (Hindi: What is the benefit? One man is Muslim and he becomes Hindu. So what is the difference? Whatever the mentality he had it is still the same. If you just put rubber-stamp, does anything become less? When we talk about dharma it is about.) . . . Kṛṣṇa dharma. Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is the only dharma. (Hindi: We have alot of Muslims in our movement. They are from foreign countries. They are in England, Germany. They are same like us. We have Muslims, Christians, Jewish . . . we have everyone. So these people are attracted toward Krsna. Whatever literature we have, it is.) . . . Kṛṣṇa literature. It is not a Hindu dharma literature. (Hindi: It is very big and lengthy, thousands.)
So they are not interested in many gods, Durga, Kali, or Śiva, or . . . (Hindi: They are only demigods. But Bhagavad Gita as it is . . . God says . . . (sanskrit) . . . ekam . . . leave all the religions and surrender unto my feet. It means that it is the only dharma, others are not. If you . . .) Strictly, if you take the version of Bhagavad-gītā, why Bhagavān says that, "You give up all religion. Simply you take to the shelter of My feet?" That means to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet is the only religion. (Hindi: Just try to understand. God says that . . . (sanskrit) . . . If you want to establish religion . . . (indistinct) . . . and at the end He says . . . (sanskrit) . . . (indistinct) . . . No no Vivekananda did not do anything like that. When did Vivekananda stand for india. Vivekananda went vedanta for preaching and in Chicago . . . (indistinct) . . .) Practically that was against Hindu conception. (Hindi: The second thing is Vivekananda . . . (indistinct) . . . They are working for 80 years and they have 4 to 5 centers. They have two in New York, in Los Angeles and many other different places. So they have 4 to 5 centers within 80 years. We created at least 30 centers within 3 years. There are very few American dedicated souls in their centers. And we have at least 25 to 50 in each center. Therefore this is the result. I will let you judge now whether Vedanta preaching got more profit or doing Krsna kirtan and presenting Bhagavad Gita got more profit . . . (indistinct)
Everyone is Grhastha. He is also Grhastha . . . (indistinct) . . . The life full of enjoyment that is renounced. The karmi people in this world, they want to enjoy this material world. That is what the fight is about. And the philosophy we have, there is nothing to enjoy about because . . . (indistinct) . . . This is called renunciation . . . (sanskrit) . . . (indistinct) . . . they are my property. So why do you claim others property to be yours. God says that whatever you are seeing, it is right in front of you. What is it? So it is land, water, fire, air, sky, mind, envy which are made of . . . (indistinct) . . . How are you going to enjoy? If you take others' materials then you are a thief. It is said in Bhagavad Gita that without yajna, if it is done for enjoyment, then it is called thief . . . (indistinct) . . . You don't obey God, you don’t accept the property belongs to God, these are all thieves . . . (indistinct) . . . So how can you find peace in the society of thieves? It is impossible . . . So according to Bhagavad Gita everybody is thief. They take God's property and call it belongs to them . . . (indistinct) . . . So you made a building . . . what does it consist of? Soil, water, fire, air . . . these are only mixed together to form a building. These ingredients which are there, you did not create them . . . (indistinct) . . . First answer this . . . if one does not have faith in God, how is he going to get God? First answer this, If someone does not have faith in God at all, how is he going to get God? You just said he doesn't have faith. Then that is being stupid. First he has faith in God and he does not have faith in God's name then it is stupidity. It is Stupidity . . . (indistinct) . . . We are not talking about fear.) We are not talking of God, (Hindi: of fear) we are talking of love.
Why you misunderstand? Don't misunderstand the philosophy. We are teaching love of Godhead. It is not we are teaching that you become afraid of God (Hindi: The demons and enemies of God will be fearful.) (break) (Hindi: . . . (indistinct) . . . Do the devotees get afraid of God? They get on the shoulders of God. Because God is known to Arjuna by His special incarnation. The Universal form which was shown by God, He is known for that . . . (indistinct) . . . Arjuna loves the actual Muralidhar incarnation of Krsna . . . (indistinct) . . . We are requesting everyone to chant Hare Krsna. This is the only idea, There's nothing to do. We hold hands and feet of rascals to do our work . . . (indistinct) . . . This is our only work. We showed some pain. I told them please come and listen to this a little. While listening they became a devotee . . . (indistinct) . . . Listen and have the Lord's prasadam and dance.) Bahut easy process hai. You come, sing, dance, and take prasādam. Is there any difficulty? If people come to us, in melodious songs they sing and they dance and when they are tired they take sumptuously prasādam, so what can be the more convenient way? (Hindi: (indistinct) . . . He cannot meditate, cannot do yoga, cannot understand vedanta, he cannot do karma kanda yajna, cannot do anything. He himself is sad. There is nothing for him to do. He does not have money. You cannot understand now, you want to do a lot of things.)
You are a qualified lawyer, but you cannot do for want of money. (Hindi: If your situation is like this, then there is some stupids who do not know anything. Then what to do? . . . in the month of Kali there is no one who has strength. That’s why . . . (sanskrit) . . . This should be accepted. This can benefit all. This has no cost. It is not difficult. It is from the vedas . . . (indistinct) . . . He is not scientist, he is foolish . . . (indistinct) . . . He is number one foolish. He does not know what is God's name . . . (indistinct) . . . ) He has no right because he does not know what is name. Nāma-cintāmaṇi-kṛṣṇaś caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ. (Hindi: (indistinct) . . . There is no difference between God's name and God Himself. If you don’t know that then how does science exists. This is foolish. They don't know what is the holy name. Did you understand or not? The science should know everything but they don't even know what is the holy name. Then how is it science. This is foolishness . . . (indistinct) . . . Science is Vyasadeva . . . (indistinct) . . . There is many types of religions . . . (indistinct) . . . There is religion for Muslims, Christian and Vedic religion. The 3 modes of material nature which is present, satya, raja, tama . . . the religion is formed according to that. Not every person is one. Someone is in satya guna, raja guna and tama guna. Like that there is tamasik dharma, rajasik dharma and sastrik dharma. Worshipping Kali is there in vedic literature, sacrificing a goat to Kali, is there in our Vedic literature. That is also religion. It was made for those who want to eat flesh. Those who cannot give up.) Yes. Because you are responsible, if you cut the throat of a goat, then you'll be responsible. Just like in your jurist law, if you commit murder—you are lawyer—you have to be hanged. So, (Hindi: Why can’t you understand this, that in a general state law there is a law.) ". . . life for life." So I am killing one life. I shall not be liable to repay by my life.
Guest (4): But then why the Vedas allow us to eat the meat of goat and other animals?
Prabhupāda: That is to restrict. Just like government opens liquor shop. That does not mean government is encouraging to drink. Those who are drunkard, going create disturbance, for them there is little concession. But they are responsible. If they become drunkard and causes some disturbance in the street, then he will be arrested by the police. He cannot say: "Oh, I have paid for the bottle." (Hindi: (indistinct) . . . Everybody is kids in college. The people who teach the kids make an arrangement with them . . . (indistinct) . . . ) The bhakti is all-inclusive. (Hindi: There is Bhagavad knowledge, Brahma knowledge, Paramatma knowledge in it . . . (sanskrit) . . . (indistinct) . . .)
- vadanti tat tattva-vidas
- tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam
- brahmeti paramātmeti
- bhagavān iti śabdyate
- (SB 1.2.11)
(Hindi: If someone has Bhagavad knowledge then he has both Paramatma and Brahma knowledge. One who has just Brahma knowledge, he does not have Bhagavad knowledge. One who has Paramatma knowledge, he does not have Bhagavad knowledge.) Brahmā-jñāna means . . . just like sunlight. You understand sunlight. That does not mean that you know sun disc. But both of them are light.
Guest (9): The brahma-jñāna has got a limited jurisdiction.
Prabhupāda: It is these things that . . . this is the . . . just like ordinary . . . (indistinct)
- yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-
- koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam
- tad brahma niṣkalam anantam aśeṣa bhūtaṁ
- (Bs. 5.40)
Brahma niṣkalam anantam . . . (Hindi: (indistinct) . . . The knowledge is Brahma knowledge. Brahma knowledge and Paramatma, for yogis it is Paramatma knowledge, for jnanis it is Brahma knowledge and for devotees it is Bhagavad knowledge. So God Brahma, Paramatma . . .)
Guest (9): Different stages? Are there different stages?
Prabhupāda: Different features. Different features. Just like Sūryaloka or Sūryadeva or Sūrya-raśmi. (Hindi: The Sūrya-raśmi is Brahma knowledge. Sūryaloka is Paramatma knowledge and Sūryadeva is Bhagavad knowledge.)
Guest (9): I see.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi: It is one only.) Different stages. (Hindi: (indistinct) . . . It is being liberated.)
Guest (9): You have to try to come in second arya.
Prabhupāda: Then second, paramātmā-jñāna. Then bhagavat-jñāna. (break)
Guest (9): . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . (Hindi: We will get purified and we will become one with God. That is the result if you do jnana karma . . . (sanskrit) . . . (indistinct) . . .) That is bhakti. That is the pure bhakti . . . (indistinct) . . . my family, my . . . (indistinct) . . . so many responsibility . . . (indistinct)
Guest (9): It is very difficult to give up.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is difficult, but there is way.
Guest (9): There is some ceremony for that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is upādhi. (Hindi: When these people have American Bhagavad committee. If I am upadhi-yukta then there is nothing to preach about Hindu dharma . . . (indistinct) . . .) I identify myself as Hindu. Yes. Then they would not have not accepted. They would have said, "We have got Christianity. Why should I accept your Hinduism?" . . . (indistinct)
Guest (9): This sort of distinction was not also clear to us, but now, after hearing you this morning . . .
Guest (9): . . . and your ceremony . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, if you go anywhere, if you want to preach Hinduism, why they should be interested in Hinduism? They can hear some words. But we are not talking of Hinduism and Muhammadanism; we are talking on the science of God.
Guest (9): The true philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is God? What is the conception of God? Oh, they have accepted, there, "Yes, here it is right conception." Yes.
Guest (9): Go back to Godhead.
Prabhupāda: Back to Godhead.
Guest (9): Go back to Godhead. I distributed what I got.
Prabhupāda: No, I shall arrange to distribute. I am getting fifty thousand Back to Godheads. Fifty thousand. I shall distribute . . . (indistinct)
(break) (indistinct) . . . We haven't got to present Kṛṣṇa as Indian as Hindu. Kṛṣṇa is neither of them. Kṛṣṇa says, claims that, "Every living entity is My part and parcel. I am the seed-giving father." So therefore it has become successful. I never said that, "You become a Hindu." "You accept Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and try to understand the philosophy." What business they have got to become Hindu? But they want to know what is God. Oh, that we have been confident.
Guest (9): They are accepting God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi: And here people's idea is why should we obey Krsna as God.) Even if they are puzzled. Although Kṛṣṇa appeared in India.
Guest (9): We don't think that He belongs to particular place or . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: That's . . . they do not understand Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi: Whoever got evidence from God . . . (sanskrit) . . . (indistinct) . . . How can someone understand a donkey? To understand Krsna one has to do yoga and sadhana . . . (indistinct) . . .) Why step by step? If you have to accept Kṛṣṇa, why not immediately? That is intelligence.
Guest (9): But you should be . . .
Prabhupāda: There is no question of "Should be." When Kṛṣṇa says, "I'll give you protection," why "Should be"? You don't believe in Kṛṣṇa. He says, ahaṁ tvaṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa (BG 18.66). You are doubtful about Kṛṣṇa's capacity. That means you do not know Kṛṣṇa. Yes.
Guest (9): But in a part of the one be . . .
Guest (9): But in a part of one form . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Guest (2): He means that is beyond his capacity to understand Him.
Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, "I am everything." Why don't you accept Him? That means you want to understand Kṛṣṇa in your own way. Why you are becoming intentionally unable?
Guest (9): No, believe Him as you are a servant and serve Him. Or you believe that you are mother to Him. Or you believe that you are . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: No, that is second. First of all surrender. Then what way you shall surrender, that is different thing, another stage, more confidential. First of all there is surrender. First of all you enter this house or this room. Then you ask, "How can I serve you?" That is different. First of all there is no surrender, or without surrender, full surrender, there is no entrance in Kṛṣṇa.
Guest (9): No entry.
Prabhupāda: No entry. Because those who revolted against Kṛṣṇa, those who wanted to become Kṛṣṇa by imitating Him, they are here in this material world. Icchā-dveṣa-samutthena sarge yānti parantapa (BG 7.27).
(indistinct) . . . Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19), creation, that all the living entities who have come into this created world, they have revolted. They wanted to become Kṛṣṇa, to imitate Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they have given the chance, "All right, you become Kṛṣṇa. You do whatever you like. I will give you facility. You want to become Brahmā? All right, you become Brahmā. And you want to become the worm of stool? I will give you the facility."
So these living entities are rotating. Sometimes he is becoming Brahmā, sometimes becoming the worm of a stool, sometimes this, sometimes that. In this way he is changing body. This is material world. Or when he comes back again, back to Godhead, yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). Then you'll haven't got to come back. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9).
So we have to prepare for that position, how to go back to home, how to go back to Kṛṣṇa, and engage ourself in His service. Then the question of either as mother or friend or . . . that will be considered later on. First of all let us try how to enter kingdom of God. That is condition, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66), that "You surrender unto Me fully, giving up all your other engagement. Then I take charge of you." Ahaṁ tvāṁ mokṣayiṣyāmi. Mokṣa is there. For a kṛṣṇa-bhakta is nothing, mokṣa, or liberation. He'll do it. He'll look after it.
Guest (9): Thank you very much.
Prabhupāda: Ready? All right. (end)