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720615 - Conversation - Los Angeles

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

720615R1-LOS ANGELES - June 15, 1972 - 56:34 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . past misdeeds, and this man cuts your hand, he creates another misdeed. In this way we become bound up by one deed after another. Karma-bandhanaḥ.

Śyāmasundara: So by this tampering of bodies they’ll become more and more entangled.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. First of all whether that . . . will be able to do so . . . (indistinct) . . . and even they are able too . . .

Śyāmasundara: They’ve already done some . . . made some progress like that.

Prabhupāda: What is that progress? They cannot create even an ant.

Śyāmasundara: No, like changing the chromosomes and gene structures they’ve mutated bodies. Just like there was a . . . few years back there was a drug called Thalidomide, which was given widely to pregnant women. It was supposed to help them, but it turns out that it mutated many babies. It changed the cell structure in the womb, and they all came out without any limbs—born without arms and legs.

Prabhupāda: That much harm they can do. That's all. Without arms and legs they would come?

Śyāmasundara: It was a mistake. They created some drug which made babies being born without arms and legs. So they will be able to change bodies, that's . . .

Prabhupāda: But change bodies cannot, because we have several times explained, that after sex the two kinds of secretion, they mix and emulsify, and it forms into a body like a pea. Then the pea grows. Now by medicinal process you can stop growing the hands and legs.

Devotee: Yet they have mistaken whatever was supposed to grow that they would grow, they would take up the next step. So if an arm was supposed to grow that day, and she took that Thalidomide, the arm wouldn’t grow. The next day the process would continue to grow. So something would be missing from that day that the medicine was taken.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In the growing condition . . . just like a seed is fructifying, but if you add something it may not fructify.

Śyāmasundara: What they’re trying to do now is, in a tube, a glass tube, they recreate the conditions of sex life.

Prabhupāda: So that's all right. What is the credit there? Why they are foolishly trying that? That is my proposal.

Śyāmasundara: Well, their just simply curiosity . . .

Prabhupāda: Suppose if they can create a living entity within a test tube, what is the credit there? There are so many living entities.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: They can never go beyond natural law.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: They can never go beyond . . .

Śyāmasundara: The only use ultimately would be destructive. They’ll be able to ruin everything.

Prabhupāda: And that they’re doing. They’re expert in doing it.

Devotee: They can’t help it. How can they help it?

Prabhupāda: They’ll create more chaos, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: Even if they create fifty Einsteins. Einstein invented . . .

Prabhupāda: If you . . . even if they create . . . what Einstein has done?

Śyāmasundara: The atom bomb.

Prabhupāda: What is the gift of Einstein?

Śyāmasundara: The atom bomb.

Prabhupāda: The atom bomb?

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Einstein is worshiped because he has given atom bomb? That's all?

Śyāmasundara: One of the things that they’re trying to do now that the space administration has spent millions of dollars already, they’re trying to create a cross between an animal and a man, which will have a human brain and an animal body composed of different types of animals, so that he can survive on other planets.

Prabhupāda: So our Nṛsiṁhadeva is half, nṛsiṁha: half man. (laughter) So what is the credit there? We have already got. We worship. Anyway, we are not going to give any credit to these rascals.

Śyāmasundara: No, let them do it first.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever they propose, we have already got.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Can we say, Prabhupāda, that all these efforts are due to the perverted nature?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: In other words . . .

Prabhupāda: Māyā. This is called māyā. They forget their real business, and they apply their brain in some nonsense activity. Childish.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: But their nonsense is imitation of some kind of Absolute.

Prabhupāda: Nonsense.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Their nonsense is an imitation, a perversion . . .

Prabhupāda: Imitation is that the Absolute has got creative power, and they have got the creative power, they’re using it pervertedly. That's all. That creative power . . .

Ātreya Ṛṣi: From where do they get these ideas?

Prabhupāda: This creative power . . . the ideas, any, a child can have, many ideas. Ideas, that's not going to be . . .

Ātreya Ṛṣi: But isn’t there a perfect form of these ideas in the spiritual world, which originally these perversions came from?

Prabhupāda: The perversion came from the idea. I have already explained. In the spiritual world the creative power is there. They can create anything they like. That, that is . . . that what they create, that is all-blissful and pleasurable. And there . . . this creative power here is used, whatever they create, that creates misery. That's all. That is the difference. Because it is perverted. It is perverted. It's like perverted, you can understand in this way.

Just like a tree is standing on a bank of a river. Now the top of the tree is reflected down. Just like in Vaikuṇṭhaloka, Kṛṣṇa's dancing with the gopīs. That is parakīya-rasa. The atmosphere is that the gopīs belong . . . they are wives of other, but they have come to Kṛṣṇa. This parakīya-rasa.

Parakīya-rasa means enjoyment with others' husband or others' wife. This is called parakīya-rasa. Sakhya means "married," and parakīya means "extra." There, this parakīya-rasa is the supreme. And here, this parakīya-rasa is the most abominable. The parakīya-rasa is there, but here it is abominable, and there it is supreme.

Śyāmasundara: The top becomes the bottom.

Prabhupāda: And the bottom becomes the top.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Similiarly, can we conclude that, for example, that if they have cars here or if they have bicycles here, or if they have any kind of facilities . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Bicycle we have created, eh? Bicycles we have created, so the real thing is that we have got the creative power. As you are creating simply to become entangled. That creative power is being misused, and you are becoming more and more entangled. That is the problem. Now when there is question of creative power, there may be so many things created. The basic principle is creative power. You . . . not that because by my concocted creative power I’ve manufactured bicycle, there must be a bicycle.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, I know.

Prabhupāda: Not that.

Śyāmasundara: They have other vehicles, the chariots . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is. The chariots are nice thing.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: But isn’t the bicycle a perversion of that chariot? In other words . . .

Prabhupāda: Perversion it is, because you are . . . your ideas are perverted, you are creating some perversion which is useless there. They don’t create anything which has no bliss and knowledge. Here, everything is created under ignorance and . . . misgivings? Misunderstandings. That's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are . . . (indistinct) . . . inquisitive of change, by nature. The real scientists, of course, they’re completely under the control of the real consciousness . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . but in their thinking, they think that whatever they do is done by themselves . . . (indistinct) . . . being is controlling . . . from . . . a change of consciousness. From spiritual consciousness, they change it into material consciousness, so things become worse.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: What about the . . . what is curiosity? What is that feeling of curiosity?

Prabhupāda: Curiosity is inquisitiveness, "What is that? What is that?"

Śyāmasundara: Is that present in the spiritual world also?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Even there is, the answer is already there.

Śyāmasundara: Even the answer is there, still there's curiosity.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: And then the original curiosity is the curiosity to know Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: So what I’m trying to say . . .

Prabhupāda: Original curiosity—everything in relation with Kṛṣṇa. Here also we’re inquisitive to know the material nature, and that is also Kṛṣṇa. But that is the external energy of the Lord. But they are the internal energy.

Śyāmasundara: So they can go on forever and never find . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: . . . Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Illusory.

Śyāmasundara: More and more complex.

Prabhupāda: That is sung by one Vaiṣṇava poet: Ikṣu bhaviya manu kartacusi. Ikṣu. Ikṣu, sugarcane, eh, and a stick is like sugarcane. So they’re chewing the stick, not the sugarcane. (laughter) Both looks the rod, pole. But here the unfortunate, they’re trying to get juice from a rod.

They have no information of the sugarcane. That is also like rod. It is perverted reflection of that rod, and they're trying to chew it and get juice out of it. That is their rascaldom. Ikṣu bhaviya manu kartacusi ke amane . . . (indistinct) . . . if you . . . perverted rod you chew, thinking it that it is sugarcane, then where is the sweetness? Where is the sweetness?

You are chewing a rod, and you are trying to get sweetness out of it. How it will be possible? That is a different thing. Ikṣu bhaviya manu kartacusi ke amane . . . (indistinct) . . . very good . . . that is Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura.

Śyāmasundara: There seems to be . . .

Prabhupāda: And just like the snake is very cold, you know?

Śyāmasundara: Cold.

Prabhupāda: Very cold. Body is very cold. So one is very heated, and he takes the snake to become cold, and the snake bites—finished. It is like that: taking cooling effect from the body of the snake.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can we say that your wanting cooling effect is all right, but your going to the wrong source, that's the mistake. In other words, the curiosity is all right, the idea is all right . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. That creative force is there, so use that creative force for satisfying Kṛṣṇa. Then you’ll get credit. But here they’re using the creative force for satisfying their senses.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: They’re going to the snake.

Prabhupāda: Yes, senses. Therefore they’re suffering. There is the mistake. The creative force, the chemical knowledge, chemist or physist, they advance the creative . . . now they should use it for Kṛṣṇa. Just like chemist or a physist, by chemical statement they may prove that it is Kṛṣṇa, the original. Then that creative force will be . . .

idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥśrutasya vā
sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ
avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito
(SB 1.5.22)

Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥśrutasya vā. Here we also, we discover so many things by tapasya. It is also tapasya, that "These people are dying; we are going to do like that." That is tapasya. So they’re discovering something after many years' researches—that is called tapasya. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya, education; sviṣṭasya, gentle behavior. Sūktasya. All good things.

idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥśrutasya vā
sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ
(SB 1.5.22)

Intelligence, charity—these are all good things, tapasya. Hmm? But how these things will be successful? Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito: by kavi, by great sages, saintly persons, they have decided that by all these creative forces, you try to describe the Supreme Lord.

Śyāmasundara: Describe.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The scientists can describe. A . . . (indistinct) . . . man, he's describing the Supreme Lord by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But a scientist, by his chemical research, by physical research, as they're doing, he, instead of getting a life in the test tube, nonsensical, if they make research and find out, the so-called scientists and physists and chemists can understand through chemistry, by physics, Kṛṣṇa, that will be . . . perfect . . . they're researching, they're trying to find out the life within the test tube, but why not find out Kṛṣṇa?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Is that possible, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not possible?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, I thought that the only way possible is through approaching guru and śāstra.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything has to be learned by approaching guru, because guru is giving. I’m guru, I’m giving you instruction. But by your chemical knowledge you try to explain Kṛṣṇa. By your physical knowledge you to try to explain Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa is everything. This chemistry, physics, mechanics, everything, that is manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's different energies. So when you have captured the energy, that through the energy go to the energetic, that will be success. That is nice.

Śyāmasundara: You mean just . . .

Prabhupāda: Then your learning of chemistry, physics and mechanics and whatever you are talking of, that will be required. But they are misusing, which is implausible.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: But how could they, by . . .

Prabhupāda: How could they, that is different thing. The instruction is that if you are researching something by your chemical knowledge, and if you’re trying to establish something, so instead of that nonsense thing, you try to find out Kṛṣṇa by your chemical knowledge. Chemical knowledge you can find out Kṛṣṇa. Why not?

Śyāmasundara: Just like he was saying that there are four atoms that are the cause of everything: hydrogen, nitrogen . . .? Those four. So try to find out how those four are coming from Kṛṣṇa's energies.

Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8). This is chemistry. Is it not? Rasa, the liquid taste in water. Kṛṣṇa says: "I am." So now this water is the composition of hydrogen and oxygen. Now find out hydrogen, oxygen—Kṛṣṇa. Make this research.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: But first he has to be Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa conscious is very, very high position. But if one wants to make his life successful . . . so here's chemist; this is a hint that this taste, the nice taste of water, is Kṛṣṇa. Now you prove it by chemical arrangement, or that experiment.

raso 'ham apsu kaunteya
prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ
(BG 7.8)

Now Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the shining of the moon and the sun." Now you find out by physical experiment. This shining, there is a source. Now, the sun is the source, the moon is the source. Now try to find out wherefrom the sun came, who created the sun.

Śyāmasundara: They’re still mystified that the sun can create so much energy and never be diminished.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So who, who manufactured this item, sun? They also say sun is composed of these chemicals. So instead of trying to analyze this composition of the sun, find out wherefrom all these chemicals came, who manufactured. As soon as we say "chemical," it has to be manufactured by somebody.

This research, that will make his chemical knowledge, physical knowledge, perfect. But if he wants to create something from globule, then it is a waste of his energy and misleading people. That he cannot.

Śyāmasundara: They say that the chemicals came out of energy, came from sound . . . ah, vibrations.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the energy. So that energy must be coming . . . the electric energy is coming from the powerhouse. So you have to find out wherefrom these energies are coming. I have got some stock energy by which I can lift this, is it not?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So similarly, wherefrom the energy is coming, the lifting and moving and everything? That is real research.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, I understood that man could find about the properties of things and how they’re related to God, but he could not connect to God with the ordinary process. The only way to connect was through hearing and submitting. So . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. At least one should be intelligent to understand that wherefrom the energy is coming. The answer is in Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). So our proposition is, Kṛṣṇa conscious, we know that Kṛṣṇa is the original source of all things.

Therefore our knowledge is perfect. Now, one who has become chemist and physist, he can prove this, that Kṛṣṇa is the original source of all. Then his knowledge of chemistry, physics, is perfect. But the people want to know through the modern science. So if one is real scientist, let him prove that yes, this energy is coming from Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: (to Svarūpa Dāmodara) It's your job. What is your field of science? Chemistry? What kind? Organic?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya. Prove it, this rasa is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ: physics. "The shining, I am that." Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya, prabhāsmi . . . śabdaḥ khe pauruṣaṁ nṛṣu (BG 7.8). "This sound in the sky, that I am." Then prove by physics and chemistry. That is wanted. That is bhakti. That is bhakti. Not to propose some nonsense things: "In future we shall do this and that."

Śyāmasundara: I was just looking at this picture. They have created this machine through so much labor and thousands . . . and hundreds of thousands of dollars, just to hook it up to this lamb, this unborn lamb, like an umbilical cord. So they have created an artificial mother, so to speak, for this animal.

Prabhupāda: What is the use? They are such a fool. What is the use? The mother is already . . .

Śyāmasundara: Yes. The mother's standing there. The mother's in the pasture, right?

Prabhupāda: Such a nonsense, spending money. Mūḍhā. Mūḍhā.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda is . . .

Prabhupāda: Yayā sammohito jīva ātmānaṁ tri-guṇātmakam manute anarthaṁ (SB 1.7.5). Anarthaṁ. Anarthaṁ, useless things, any ways.

Śyāmasundara: They get some . . . it seems . . .

Prabhupāda: Already there is mother, and they’re spending millions of dollars to create an artificial mother. Just see.

Śyāmasundara: There seems to be a natural propensity for man to enjoy putting two things together and watching them. A satisfaction.

Prabhupāda: That was creative. The creative force. Creative force. So God is creating. He has got the creative force, multi-energies. So just like a child, a small child, a baby, he also take another baby, doll baby. It is like that. I mean it has no value. (laughter) It has no value. (laughs) It is like that.

Śyāmasundara: We’re playing with dolls.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: And taking it seriously.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes in your country, small children, they cook. They have got small utensils. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: That's right.

Prabhupāda: Yes. My sister's son, when he was young, they’re cooking with a lamp, (laughs) and a small piece of dough, purī, and I was the guest. (laughter) (laughs) It is not cooked; simply dipped in the ghee. And I was to eat. Eh? Hot purī! It is like that. And it's nothing but enjoying. "Mother is cooking, so we shall cook." It is like that. God is creating. Lamp. "Ah, we shall create." Then that much credit, that's all. Childish.

Śyāmasundara: Childish.

Prabhupāda: Yes, childish playing. And foolish person, foolish man like me, he is eating that purī. (laughter) You see? So, these things are childish, and they’re enjoyed by the rascals and fools. That's all. It has no value.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientists think that knowledge is given on by Kṛṣṇa, and whatever we do is for Kṛṣṇa. So they’re all trying to make something that they think that they are doing, they think that they are doing it for Kṛṣṇa, and . . .

Prabhupāda: No, they must see that by doing that, that Kṛṣṇa is pleased. That is it . . . that should be. Yes, we are doing everything for Kṛṣṇa, but whether by that thing Kṛṣṇa is pleased, that is to be seen. That is bhakti. Otherwise, you cannot do without Kṛṣṇa. That's a fact.

The ingredients are Kṛṣṇa. The intelligence is given by Kṛṣṇa. Your hand is given by Kṛṣṇa. Your leg is given by Kṛṣṇa. So you cannot do anything without Kṛṣṇa. But the credit is by doing something, when you satisfy Kṛṣṇa, then you will be successful. You cannot go within the boundary of Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. Just like the same thing: the children are playing mock purīs. So that is within this jurisdiction of the parents. They’re not independent.

They want to play, "Mother, give me this little dough, I shall . . ." "All right, take it." "Give me little ghee," "All right." "Give me little lamp," "All right." "Give me little lamp," "That's it." So it is not without the jurisdiction of the parents. But if by making the purī the mother and father or the guardian is satisfied, then it is perfect. Otherwise it is childish.

Śyāmasundara: They please the parents.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise it is childish. That's all. No value.

Śyāmasundara: But why is there pleasure in creating something, in making?

Prabhupāda: Pleasure in him, not to others. This creation will not please anyone else except that rascal.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, but what is that in the act of creating something, say, even I’m a rascal, if I create something nice like this, how do I . . . why do I get pleasure from doing that? What is that pleasure?

Prabhupāda: Pleasure?

Śyāmasundara: By making something, creating something . . .

Prabhupāda: Because you are active. You are living being, you are active. So by activity means you are living. That is pleasure.

Śyāmasundara: If I create something like a poem or a picture, why do I get pleasure from that act, that activity?

Prabhupāda: Because you have got senses. So your senses are satisfied that you have created something. By that sense satisfaction you are thinking you are satisfied.

Śyāmasundara: Ohhh.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is temporary it's not . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, sense satisfaction.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, by recreating with our hands what our brain conceives . . .

Prabhupāda: Whatever it is, it is your sense pleasure, that's all. That is material.

Śyāmasundara: Ah. It is part of the false ego . . .

Prabhupāda: That's it. Yes.

Śyāmasundara: . . . to think, "I am creating this."

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, when you instruct that the scientists should use their science to discover Kṛṣṇa, could we, as your students, acquire scientific knowledge also . . .

Prabhupāda: No. You don’t require to acquire scientific . . . whatever knowledge you have got, with that knowledge you try to please Kṛṣṇa.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The main business is to please Kṛṣṇa. Now, because I am saying the scientist may do this for pleasing, that doesn’t mean that you have to become a scientist and then please Kṛṣṇa. Whatever you have got, please Kṛṣṇa.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: For example, I have got a little knowledge of psychology.

Prabhupāda: So you do that. Do that.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: I can prove . . . (indistinct) . . . that, that man has scientifically . . . that man has a spirit, and that spirit is intelligent . . .

Prabhupāda: Do that. Do that. That will be great contribution.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Now, can’t we study things like this in these classes as well?

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, your aim is to prove the existence of Kṛṣṇa, that is nice. That is nice. That is the meaning of this verse I . . .

idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥśrutasya vā
sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ
avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito
(SB 1.5.22)

Uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. Psychology, how it is working by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, by Kṛṣṇa's energy—if you can describe, that will be a great service to Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: Tomorrow I think we will discuss one contemporary psychologist named B. F. Skinner. His basic theory is that everything is mechanical, that our psychology is a product of our conditioning. So we can tomorrow discuss that. I don’t have any other questions about science. (aside to devotees) Perhaps do you have any questions . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is modern Śrīla Prabhupāda. What is modern scientist . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Prabhupāda: Everyone is materially contaminated. Why the scientist? Everyone. Any living entity who is in this material world, he is contaminated. Everyone. Tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair. You know this verse? Tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair. Where is Pradyumna? You find out the verse from the index. Tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair.

Śyāmasundara: Tribhi . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . guṇa-mayair bhāvair.

Śyāmasundara: "T-r-e" or "i"?

Prabhupāda: "i." Tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair. Find out the verse.

Devotee: Trividya? Traividya?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair. Tribhir. T-r-i-b-i-h. (devotees look for verse) (indistinct comments)


tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair
ebhiḥ sarvam idaṁ jagat
mohitaṁ nābhijānāti
mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam
(BG 7.13)

The translation: "Deluded by the three modes, goodness, passion and ignorance, the whole world does not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible."

Prabhupāda: This is the verse. What is purport?

Pradyumna: "The whole world is enchanted by three modes of the material nature. Those who are bewildered by these three modes cannot understand that transcendental to this material nature is the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. In this material world everyone is under the influence of these three guṇas and is thus bewildered."

"By nature, living entities have particular types of body and particular types of psychic and biological activities accordingly. There are four classes of men functioning in the three material modes of nature. Those who are purely in the mode of goodness are called brāhmins. Those who are purely in the mode of passion are called kṣatriyas. Those who are in the modes of both passion and ignorance are called vaiśyas. Those who are completely in ignorance are called śūdras. And those who are less than that are animals or animal life."

"However, these designations are not permanent. I may either be a brāhmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya or whatever—in any case, this life is temporary. But although life is temporary and we do not know what we are going to be in the next life, still, by the spell of this illusory energy, we consider ourselves in the light of this bodily conception of life, and we thus think that we are American, Indian, Russian or brāhmin, Hindu, Muslim, etc. And if we become entangled with the modes of material nature, then we forget the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is behind all these modes. So Lord Kṛṣṇa says that men, deluded by these three modes of nature, do not understand that behind the material background is the Supreme Godhead."

"There are many different kinds of living entities—human beings, demigods, animals, etc.—and each and every one of them is under the influence of material nature, and all of them have forgotten the transcendent Personality of Godhead. Those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, and even those who are in the mode of goodness, cannot go beyond the impersonal Brahman conception of the Absolute Truth. They are bewildered before the Lord in His personal feature, which possesses all beauty, opulence, knowledge, strength, fame and renunciation. When even those who are in goodness cannot understand, what hope is there for those in passion and ignorance? Kṛṣṇa consciousness is transcendental to all these three modes of material nature, and those who are truly established in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are actually liberated."

Prabhupāda: So without being Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Kṛṣṇa conscious, everyone is in ignorance. And in ignorance, whatever you say, that is all loose talks. That's all. It has no value. Basic standing is ignorance. Not only the scientist—not only the so-called scientist—everyone.

tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair
ebhiḥ sarvam idaṁ jagat
(BG 7.13)

They’re illusioned.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in this, in this . . . most common people believe in so-called scientific findings of scientists, because they think that science is going to change their fate—they’re going to make a nice house, science discovers something, it will give them . . . (indistinct) . . . very nice things. So all the scientists, the so-called modern scientists, they are, if they change a little bit their consciousness to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then they can understand the condition of people thinking that scientists are going in the right direction, they are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If the scientist turn to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then the face of the world will be changed. Because:

yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas
tat tad evetaro janaḥ
(BG 3.21)

The leading personalities, if they do something, others will follow. That we want. You become a big great scientist, at the same time devotee, then people will follow. If we say something by hearing from you, that is secondary knowledge. But if you say directly you have got sound footing of scientific knowledge, that will be nicely followed by others. Whatever we say, we say on the strength of Kṛṣṇa's statement: "Kṛṣṇa says this," "Oh, yes." Just like Kṛṣṇa says:

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo
mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate
(BG 10.8)

"Everything emanates from Me." Now if a scientist says in scientific language that the original source of everything is Kṛṣṇa, that will be followed by many persons. What is that verse?

yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas
tat tad evetaro janaḥ
sa yat pramāṇaṁ kurute
lokas tad anuvartate
(BG 3.21)

(pause) You have found? Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas?

Pradyumna: (Prabhupāda says along with him)

yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas
tat tad evetaro janaḥ
sa yat pramāṇaṁ kurute
lokas tad anuvartate
(BG 3.21)

"Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues."

Prabhupāda: People are misled because the leaders are misleaders. Therefore just like this man: he is talking all nonsense, he's a rascal number one. Now, in the name of scientific words, this or that, people will be misled. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: The leaders are giving him millions of dollars for research.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Misleaders. So when I talked "misleaders" in that . . . (indistinct) . . . they were doing like that. (gestures) I told them they are all misleaders. They were silent; they could not challenge me, because they know they are misleaders. How they can challenge? They know their position that, "We are nothing." They are simply bluffing people, that's all. Just like a man who is a thief. If you challenge him, "You are a thief," he will hesitate to say "No."

Right? And as soon as he remains silent, that means he's thief. If he is not thief, he will immediately say: "You rascal, why you are calling me thief? What I have done? Give me proof." That will be answer. But if he remains silent, that means he is thief. Maunaṁśamyati lakṣaṇam. If one remains after challenge silent, that means he says "Yes." The silent means "Yes."

Śyāmasundara: So if we challenge the scientist and they cannot answer us . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: If we challenge the scientists and they cannot reply . . .

Prabhupāda: They will reply, foolishly, "Yes, we are trying to find out. We shall do in future." This evasive reply. That is not reply.

Śyāmasundara: The whole thing is they have no basis; they don’t know where everything came from . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is their defect.

Śyāmasundara: They don’t know how it started. They don’t know where it's going. They just observe a little piece of it, and they say that, "This is what we are doing." (pause)

Prabhupāda: Therefore knowledge means janmādyasya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), to find out the original cause. That is knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: Original cause.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Brahmā says: "Here is original: sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam" (Bs. 5.1), the cause of all causes, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ.

Śyāmasundara: Once you said that science means to know everything about something. Everything about something. So practically there is no science. They don’t know. "Maybe," "Could be," "Perhaps."

Prabhupāda: Yes, science means everything about. That is science. Now we know that. "Something" means Kṛṣṇa. And so far we understand from the śāstra, we can explain everything.

Śyāmasundara: But they can’t explain anything about what they’re working with. It's all theories.

Prabhupāda: Law of gravitation: the apple falls down. They find out, discover law of gravitation. But why the apple falls here—now find out this way, not that way. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: They say that the earth, the center of the earth, is iron, is mostly iron, and that makes magnetic field around the earth so that everything is drawn toward the center.

Prabhupāda: But the tree grows in this way. What is that force?

Śyāmasundara: It's trying to resist gravity. Growing means to grow against gravity.

Prabhupāda: But why doesn’t it grow this way? The tree is growing this way. Why not this way?

Śyāmasundara: Sometimes, if it is trying to get the sunlight . . .

Prabhupāda: Sometimes . . . (break)

Śyāmasundara: . . . the law of least resistance.

Prabhupāda: So change it. Grow it this way.

Śyāmasundara: If they have to get the light, to the light, sometimes they grow like this.

Prabhupāda: Then there is "if." Then is beyond your control. When you say: "if," then it is beyond your control.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's controlled by Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Laws of nature.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And nature is controlled by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore ultimate controller is Kṛṣṇa. Now they have manufactured this aeroplane, and the design is just like bird. They cannot make any other design and fly. The two wings must be there. Now fly your airplane without any wings.

So all these Xerox copy, that's all. That is their credit—copying. And they are taking, by copying, the same childish play. By preparing something nonsense, you can make another nonsense. They are taking it, "Mother, I have done this. Mother I have done this." Mother says: "Yes, dance, dance, dance like monkey." (laughter) Mother knows what that is. This is going on.

Śyāmasundara: So even make a little airplane out of paper and throw it, they think . . .

Prabhupāda: Relative. According to my knowledge I throw it, that's all. And his knowledge is mechanical. But he does not know how many big, big aeroplanes and planets are floating in the air. That is creation of God.

That aeroplane, so much mechanical element, and as soon as there is a big wind, "Fasten your belt." (laughter) When there is danger, "Fasten your belt." But this big lump of matter, earth, so much, I mean, bluster and so much air and wind, but we do not feel any trembling. But it is actually blowing. That's a fact.

Śyāmasundara: Two thousand miles, around?

Prabhupāda: And moving at one thousand miles per hour. They cannot understand. This is perfection. God never says: "Now a big blast is coming: fasten your belt. Fasten your belt." (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: Perfect arrangement . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Pūrṇam idaṁ. This is pūrṇam, perfect, complete. Pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate. Why it is perfect? Because He is perfect. He is perfect. He is not . . . pūrṇam udacyate. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya: that perfect is so perfect, many millions of planets are created by His perfect energy, and still He remains the same. Not that He is finished, His energy is finished. No.

pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya
pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate
(Īśo Invocation)

He still remains perfect. That is perfection. Here in the material world, however perfect you may be, you go on conserving, retaining your energy, then you’ll . . . (indistinct) . . . I'll be old, I’ll become again finished. But that energy is never finished.

pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idaṁ
pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate
pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya
pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate
(Īśo Invocation)

The example is given, the touchstone. The touchstone, you go on touching iron, it becomes gold. But the touchstone's energy remains the same.

Śyāmasundara: The magnet is like that, too, isn’t it? The magnet? It can touch so many pieces of iron, and they will all become magnetized, but the magnet remains the same magnetic.

Prabhupāda: Its power . . . (indistinct) . . . or touchstone. Anyway, they are the material things only. And what to speak of Kṛṣṇa. Take the sun. How much energy and heat is coming for millions and millions of years. Where is the loss?

Śyāmasundara: No loss.

Prabhupāda: This is material. You create something small. They have created this clock, one-year winding, and we have to wind it three times a day, although it is . . . (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: What is that? They say once a year?

Prabhupāda: Once a year winding. And we have to take care of it three times a day. (laughter) This is nonsense. Imperfect.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, when Kṛṣṇa came, why did He break some of these rules?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Why did He break some of His own rules?

Prabhupāda: Because He is God. Yes. He must do that. Otherwise how He is God? If He is under the rules and regulation, then He's man, He is a human being. Should break it. That is His body. If He cannot break, then He is under the laws, the laws are not under Him. So breaking the law is Kṛṣṇa's qualification. His qualification.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Does . . . the end of the life of Brahmā, part of, could be also explained like natural laws? . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Just like end of your life, similarly Brahmā's end of life, what is the difficulty to understand?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Then everything else would all of a sudden stop in the material world?

Prabhupāda: That we shall see . . . at the end of Brahmā's life. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: If we're here. (cut) (end)