730225 - Conversation - Jakarta

Conversations by Date, 1973

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

730225R1-JAKARTA - February 25, 1973 - 41:03 Minutes

Devotee: . . . mām evaiṣyasi yuktvaivam ātmānaṁ mat-parāyanaḥ (BG 9.34).

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)

Devotee: Again?

Prabhupāda: Yes, now. Read the translation.

Devotee: Translation: "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me. Offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me."

Prabhupāda: So this is the process. Says: "Always think of Me."

(Hindi: . . . (indistinct) . . . the deities of the Lord is there and the deities . . . (indistinct) . . . so what is the loss for us . . . (indistinct) . . . there is no loss. Just look at these foreign people whose fathers and grandfathers never heard about Krsna, they perform it and how many of our Indian people do it? Why don't they do it? This simple thing which is there . . . Now you can see the deity of Lord . . . (indistinct) . . . Is there anything wrong to think about God? . . . (indistinct) . . . we can see God's deity and meditate on it. So how it is difficult? No one will do it, that is the problem. To achieve God, such a easy method has been given. man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru. Thank you very much.

Formula . . . this is the translation.

(aside) Read the purport. Purport.

Devotee: Purport: "In this verse it is clearly indicated that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the only means of being delivered from the clutches of this contaminated material world. Sometimes unscrupulous commentators distort the meaning of what is clearly stated here: that all devotional service should be offered to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa."

"Unfortunately, unscrupulous commentators divert the mind of the reader to that which is not at all feasible. Such commentators do not know that there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's mind and Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is not an ordinary human being. He's Absolute Truth. His body . . ."

Prabhupāda: Just like Dr. Radhakrishnan. He has explained this verse . . . when Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ (BG 9.34), he comments, "It is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Just see. Kṛṣṇa says man-manā, "Always think of Me." And he, out of his so-called nonsense scholarship, he says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." (Hindi: Just see. He is popular and he mislead so many people. Krsna says always think of Me and this rascal says: "No no not to Krsna")

Indian man (1): He's impersonalist.

Prabhupāda: He's a nonsense.

Indian man (1): He's impersonalist. I read that Bhagavad-gītā in school.

Prabhupāda: He's a nonsense. Now he's suffering. I saw him last year in Madras. He has lost his brain, like that. He's suffering now. You cannot ask him whether he's hungry or whether he wants some . . . Only his daughter is attending, and here he cannot understand who is standing before him; he cannot speak. Like that. (Hindi: He is getting the results in this life only. (aside: Please come) He is getting the results of his actions in this life only because . . (indistinct) . . . he is a good person. He is a brahmana . . . (indistinct) . . . his decisions are not right. The reason for not having right decisions . . .) He has committed so much offenses under the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa.

(Hindi: And he received the results in this life only so that he does not suffer later, that is also God's mercy. If a good person suffers in this life, that means whatever sufferings he is about to receive in this life, he should receive it now, he will not suffer it later, he will have happiness ahead. That is the decision. Just like a person murders someone, the government hangs him. The decision is very good for him otherwise he has to suffer a lot ahead. In the sastras . . . it is being said in manu samhita that as he is being hanged in this life, all his sins completely goes away. He does not have suffer anymore going ahead. Similarly the sins committed on the feet of the Lord by this Dr. Radhakrishnan . . . (indistinct) . . . he is suffering in this life . . . (indistinct) . . . because the person is . . (indistinct) . . . foolish, he does not know anything, he does not know the science of Krsna consiousness. Maya aprtajnana. It is being said in the sastras that, na mam prapadyante mudha duskrtino naradhama mayayapahrta-jnana asuram bhavam asritah (BG 7.15). The ones who took shelter under the demonic . . . (indistinct) . . . that person cannot surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord. Why? Because for being under the demonic possession, whatever work he does, it is considered as sins. They make sins only. duskrtino, krtino means that) . . . very meritorious.

(to guest) I think you cannot understand Hindi.

Devotee: He speaks English.

Prabhupāda: Ah. So you can understand English then. So (Hindi: The meaning of Duṣkṛtinaḥ is . . .) Duṣkṛtinaḥ means . . . Kṛtiḥ means meritorious, very meritorious. But duṣkṛtiḥ. Whatever merit he has got . . . Nowadays, at the present moment, the civilization is so made that everyone as human being . . . Any human being, he has got some merit because he is not cat and dog. He's a man. As a man he has got brain, better than the cats and dogs.

That's a fact. And actually they're doing so many things. Just like this picture. It is a very meritorious workmanship. So everyone can do some meritorious workmanship. But when that workmanship is diverted to . . . for the use of sinful activities . . . just like one man is very meritorious, he's planning to form a party how to plunder. This requires merit. Without merit you cannot form a party. But the merit is being used for plundering, for harassing, for so many other sinful activities.

So that is called duṣkṛtinaḥ. Merit is there, but the merit is being misused for sinful activities. They are called duṣkṛtiḥ. Just like modern scientist. It is meritorious that they have discovered the atomic bomb. The merit is used for killing. If you just use your merit so that man may live . . . That they're dying. Everyone is dying. So you have discovered a bomb which will accelerate death. Death, everyone is going to die. So if you manufacture something which will accelerate my death, is that very meritorious? If you discover something that will stop my death, that is meritorious. And everyone is dying, and you have discovered some machine so that you can die quickly. So what is the merit? But people are appreciating, "Oh, this is meritorious." This is called duṣkṛtinaḥ. Duṣkṛtinaḥ, mean one has got merit, it is being spoiled for doing something wrong. This is called duṣkṛtinaḥ.

So such people, duṣkṛtinaḥ, who, one who is using the merit for sinful activities, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. He cannot surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15), and rascal. Rascal means denying the existence of God. He's a rascal. Anyone who denies the existence of God, he's a rascal. Rascal means poor fund of knowledge. Everything . . . suppose this is a country, Indonesia, nicely being managed: the roads are there; the policemen there, they're directing . . . just yesterday we were trying to enter in a one-way, policeman directs. So this symptom says that there is a good government.

So any sane man, he'll see the cosmic manifestation—that the sun is rising exactly in time; the moon is rising exactly in time; the seasons are changing; the seas in its position . . . Just like the Pacific Ocean, at any moment it can overflow at any place, but it does not do so. You walk . . . I was walking in Los Angeles just about three feet away from the sea. So I was explaining to my students, "Now, I am just three feet away from the sea, and the sea is so vast. At any second it can overflood us. But why you are confident the sea will not come here?" Because we know, by God's order, although the sea, the ocean, is so big, it cannot violate the order of God. That you are big, that's all right. But you cannot come beyond this line.

So these things are being managed, and there is no God? What a nonsense. If things are . . . Just like when you pass through a house, sometimes if you don't see . . . the house is not properly taken care of, or there is no light in front of the house, there are so many garbages—we immediately say: "Oh, there is no man in this house." And as soon as you see house is very nicely kept, there is light and the garden is kept, we understand there is a man. So this is common sense. If things are going on, everything is going on so nicely, how you can say there is no management, there is no brain? How you can say? What is this nonsense? Huh? How you can say there is no God?

Asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). These are the rascal, atheist proposition, asatyam. There is no truth in it. Zero. From zero it has come. Just see nonsense. Does anything come out of zero? You assemble zero, many millions of zero in one place, but still it is zero. Do you think that if you make zero, zero, zero, zero, million times, has it any value? How do they conclude from zero such a management, cosmic manifestation has come? The flower is coming out nicely in its own way. The tree is coming. Human being is coming. Everything is in order. And there is no management. How much rascal there. Just see.

So these atheist class, they're rascals, mūḍhāḥ, third-class men without any knowledge. Na māṁ . . . duṣkṛtinaḥ, I've already explained. Using the merit for sinful activities, they're called duṣkṛtinaḥ. And mūḍhāḥ, these rascals who cannot understand how the management is going on, mūḍhāḥ. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ, prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Narādhamāḥ means . . . nara means human being; adhama means the lowest, because the lowest of the mankind. The highest of the mankind means who has the knowledge of the Supreme.

He's called highest, brāhmaṇa. Brahma-jānāti, one who knows Brahman, he's called highest. And the lowest means that he has got this body, human form of body, but he is acting like animal. Just like cats and dogs, they cannot understand what is God. So any person who is not understanding, or trying to understand what is God, he's the lowest of the mankind. Because in the human form of life, it is the chance to understand what is God, but he's misusing it. He's using this body just like cats and dogs. They eat, sleep, have sex intercourse and die.

So these things are there. But if somebody argues that, "You are saying lowest of the mankind, but we see so many Dr. Radhakrishnans, they also do not admit." Therefore the word is used, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. They appear to be very highly learned scholars, but their real knowledge has been taken by māyā. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. Āsuri-bhāva. Why it has been done so? Because āsuri-bhāva, there is no God. That is their determination: "There is no God." Therefore their merit is being misused, they have become the lowest of the mankind. They have become the fool number one, and all their so-called education, academic knowledge, has been taken away by māyā. This is . . .

So we test only whether he's a devotee of God. If he's not a devotee of God, then we take either of these: he must be the rascal, or lowest of the mankind, or simply using the merit for sinful activities, or his knowledge has been taken away by māyā. Immediately we have no difficulty to understand what class of man he is. The test is whether he has got any sense of understanding God. If not, then he comes to this group. It is not very difficult to study a man, what he is. We have got the formula in the Bhagavad-gītā. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi conversation with guests) (Hindi: Are you leaving?)

Indian man: (Hindi: Sir I have got some work.)

Devotee: Your explanation you've just given was so clear, Prabhupāda. We can easily see. It's so clear.

Prabhupāda: (chuckling) Yes, this is the explanation. There is no second explanation. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). This is the only explanation. What explanation can be . . . Who can give another explanation? There is no second explanation. Aiye.

bhagavad-bhakti-hīnasya

jātiḥ śāstraṁ japas tapaḥ kriya,

aprāṇasyeva dehasya

maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam

(Hari-bhakti-sudhodaya 3.11)

Just like if you decorate the dead body, it may be pleasing to some relatives of the dead body; otherwise what is the value of it? Others will think, "What a foolish man he is, that decorating the dea . . ." Suppose if there is dead body and you're decorating with sandal pulp . . . (indistinct) . . . flower, nice cloth. That may be your sentiment because the dead body belongs to your father or mother, like that. It is pleasing to you, but actually what is the value? So similarly, this human civilization is meant for understanding God. If that sense is lacking, then it is simply decoration of the dead body. That's all. There is no value.

Indian man (1): This gentleman doesn't understand English.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi: Just preach about Bhagavad bhakti, make your life successful otherwise what will happen? you have to leave everything.) (break)

Indian man (1): He's nice devotee of Śrī Kṛṣṇa. I remember many years ago, I met him in Surabaya. He used to preach on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, but in Sindhi language.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Indian man (2): Of course, we do not have good translation in Sindhi language as your translation.

Prabhupāda: Language (Hindi: Whatever language it is, the work should be done.). Aiye (please come.)

Indian man (1): He's nice devotee . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . nice dedication . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (alright)

Indian man (1): . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: So we have explained in the Bhagavad-gītā everything very nicely.

(Hindi: I heard that you like this book.)

Indian man: (Hindi: Ordered around hundred and found a shop to sell 50 of them and the rest we distributed . . . (indistinct) . . .)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi: Our . . . (indistinct) . . . will read in English only because the whole world . . . (indistinct) . . .)

Indian man: (Hindi: But in Bombay you have a lot . . . (indistinct) . . .)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi: First if someone works . . . but nobody works because you are all businessmen. No one comes into this work. Just like these people left everything . . . but you all are not going to do. The last word about business . . . (indistinct) . . . So please bless me so that I can do business properly, So am I not speaking right?)

Indian man (1): Ninety-nine point nine percent is like that.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi: They took correct blessings. They have left everything and engaged in God's service. Nobody is ready to take this type of blessings. They ask for blessings so that they can stay where their positions are and there . . . (indistinct) . . . The rule in our Hindu dharma is that to enjoy for a few days in this material world then give up . . . (indistinct) . . . There are four asramas . . . brahmachari, grhastha, vanaprastha, sannyasa. But nobody wants to leave grhastha life. People leave grhastha who does not have a place for eating, wears a . . . (indistinct) . . .

Now those who are intelligent people . . . when gandhi was killed then he left the grhastha life. Jawaharlal Nehru when he became paralysis and he was about to die then he left grhastha life. Now the good people those who have intelligence, they don't leave grhastha life at all. Then how is it supposed to work. These third class, uneducated, uncultured people, if they take sannyasa and go here there, how they are supoosed to work? They are begging for eating, they are in difficulty and . . . (indistinct) . . . he might have found two breads and becomes satisfied.)

Indian man: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi: To do a favor I explained this word only)

Indian man: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi: For doing favor only we are going around the whole world but who accepts it? When we . . .)

Indian man: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi: When we say that leave your house and come join us that is real favor. So that is . . . (indistinct) . . . What would you say about this?)

Indian man: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi: Nobody wants to take the real favor. In a few days you all have to die anyway. It is not like that everyone will capture big houses, bank balance and will enjoy everyday. One day maya will come kick everything out, "Get out" . . . (sanskrit verse) . . . The death will come and will not listen to you. It will snatch everything. It will kick you out after snatching everything from you, "Get out from here".

Nobody thinks about this. You do not know where he wants to go. What are you doing? What is going to happening favoring one because they don't accept it. Do bhagavad bhajana and explain people about bhagavad bhajana. These are actual favors. We have 2 lakhs and favoring the sadhus will make it to 10 lakhs, this favor is different. 10 lakhs people or 10 crores of people are present. Are they happy? Nobody looks into that.

They think that, we have 2 lakhs and when it become 10 lakhs we will become happy. Nobody can become happy in anything. Please hold onto this movement very nicely. Here you all are good people, preach this and it will benefit the world and you too. Understand it very nicely, thats what we want. And those who work for God, God does all favor for him. It is written in the bhagavad). Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ.

(aside) Find out that verse. Ya imaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. Yaḥ, y-a-ḥ.

Devotee: Yaḥ . . .

Prabhupāda: Yaḥ, yam. Yaḥ, yam. Mad bhakti . . . the Eighteenth Chapter you'll find out, sixty-five, sixty-seven, at the end. Find out.

Indian man (1): Eighteenth Chapter, sixty-five, sixty-seven.

Prabhupāda: You don't find? . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: You will find sixty-one also.

Yes, here is it. (break)

Devotee:

ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ

mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati

bhaktiṁ mayi parāṁ kṛtvā

mām evaiṣyaty asaṁśayaḥ

(BG 18.68)

Translation: "For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me."

Prabhupāda: "Anyone who explains this devotional service, as explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, is guaranteed to come back to Me." That means the preacher of the Bhagavad-gītā is guaranteed to go back to home, back to Godhead.

(aside) What is the explanation?

Devotee: "Generally it is advised that Bhagavad-gītā be discussed amongst the devotees only, for those who are not devotees will neither understand Kṛṣṇa nor Bhagavad-gītā. Those who do not accept Kṛṣṇa as He is and Bhagavad-gītā as it is should not try to explain Bhagavad-gītā whimsically and become offenders."

"Bhagavad-gītā should be explained to persons who are ready to accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is a subject matter for the devotees only, and not for philosophical speculators. Anyone, however, who tries sincerely to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is will advance in devotional activities and reach the pure devotional state of life. As a result of such pure devotion, he is sure to go back to home, back to Godhead."

Prabhupāda: Next verse.

Devotee:

na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu

kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ

bhavitā na ca me tasmād

anyaḥ priyataro bhuvi

(BG 18.69)

"There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he. Nor will there ever be one more dear."

Prabhupāda: Those who are preachers.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: These are the formulas given. Preaching comes . . . (Hindi: . . . (indistinct) . . . mercy . . . (indistinct) . . . got or not got, what to do with that. The mercy . . . (indistinct) . . . God says nobody is greater offender to me than him which is . . . (indistinct) . . .)

If you want to be very intimately related . . . you're already related, but intimately, then this is the process. (Hindi: Understand Bhagavad tattva knowledge very nicely, make your life successful and explain others as well.) This is the real āśīrvāda. (Hindi: Tell me, do you like this blessing?) This is real āśīrvāda.

Indian man (1): Shall I recite Bhagavad-gītā Seventh Chapter in Sindhi?

Devotee: Let Prabhupāda speak.

Prabhupāda: Recite . . . (Hindi: First try to understand . . . (indistinct) . . . explain others . . . (indistinct) . . . what are you going to understand.)

Indian man (1): (Hind: I have understood.)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi: First of all, make your life successful. Try to understand God nicely, try to understand how to show etiquette to God . . . (indistinct) . . . then explain to others, there will be quick . . . (indistinct) . . . their help . . .) Your brother-in-law has not come? Eh? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi: (indistinct) . . . He does not do any business and he roams the whole world, how much does he spend? . . . (indistinct) . . . Like the way he came here, unknown to us, came new . . . (indistinct) . . . God told . . . (indistinct) . . . He is also in need of money so . . . (indistinct) . . . How much is the cost of printing a book? You will be surprised after hearing that the books we print . . . (indistinct) . . . company, they give us credit of 200,000 dollars. 200,000. How much is 200,000 dollars in rupees? 2 lakh dollar.)

Devotee: 150 lakh rupees.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi: I know . . . (indistinct) . . . So imagine, to the beggers like us, giving 20 lakh rupees credit, is it a normal thing? . . . (indistinct) . . . we print these books . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody gives. There is no loss for him, it certainly benefits him as well. He knows this money will not . . . (indistinct) . . . When he asks money, 10,000, 20,000 something is given . . . (indistinct) . . . So we are trying to say that, a person like us, when he begs and eats, if someone gives him an item of 20 lakh dollars, how can it be possible without God's mercy. Will someone give me ten thousand rupees? . . . (indistinct) . . . If you have ten thousand rupees then lend me, will someone give me? But God finds the person . . . (indistinct) . . .

So these people . . . (indistinct) . . . to our manager, in Los Angeles. He said from there you print books and do work of ten thousand dollars . . . (indistinct) . . . How much is ten thousand dollars? . . . (indistinct) . . . exchanged to Indian rate. He was ready to give loan of one lakh rupees. In this way their work goes on. If you do God's service, there is no lack of anything.

Everything belongs to God. If God wants, whomever He wants, whatever He wants, He can pick up and give it to him because it belongs to God. But people do not understand that. People think that he earns. There are thousands people who tries to earn but they don't get to eat and for some people, if they just show hand, they get two, seven, ten or lakh rupees. Those people who pull carts, do they put less effort? Why is he told to pull a cart whole day? Why does not he get to eat at night? So whomever God gives, they only get . . . (indistinct) . . . That's why to have faith on God, and serve God . . . (indistinct) . . . for everyone, big or small, for everyone, then only people will become happy. Mataji, Is that correct or not? I have a desire to make big temple here. Very big. For that . . . you also come, there is this one, Indonesian people will also come, together we will service of God. Everyone has the rights.

Just like to take bath in Ganga, nobody is stopped . . . (indistinct) . . . go take a bath. In this way Bhagavad bhakti is open for everyone. So just like opportunities are there for everyone to do Bhagavad bhajan, we will make a society like that . . . (indistinct) . . . So for that we will make nice temple, Radha Krsna temple . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone together do service of God . . . (indistinct) . . . this is the blessing . . . (sanskrit verse) . . . all the time . . . (indistinct) . . . doing from your heart, with intelligence.

Indian man (1): . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Look, if you are interested . . .

Indian man (1): . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. it is open for everyone. It is not like, that it is open for Hindu, no, whoever wants God, come. Just like do. With us, American . . . (indistinct) . . . whoever wants to come, the door is open for them, why some . . . (indistinct) . . . he listens, then after listening and listening, he becomes a devotee. They come to take darshan of the Lord, takes prasadam, listens to kirtana, listens to Bhagavad Gita, so after keeping on listening, he asks to make him servant. So one who becomes servant . . . (indistinct) . . . he has leave this, that, then he gives up on them as well then they become proper devotees like these people.

So there is no problem in that. So you have all come here, then do some service of Bhagavad bhakti. In front of us, if you all sit down, make a community and do something then I will be very happy with that. What do I want anyways? You spend here and make, we have our people here, they will help you. You give us ideas, then the directions are ours, just like I give them directions, work will be done. It will be a good thing.) (end)