731202 - Morning Walk - Los Angeles
Prabhupāda: Somebody who was atheist, talk with Kīrtanānanda.
Bali-mardana: Hṛdayānanda Swami.
Prabhupāda: You, you were atheist?
Prabhupāda: So what is your view of atheist? What is your argument?
Hṛdayānanda: I don't know. I couldn't think of any good argument. They say that . . . no, it's not a good argument, though. (laughs)
Bali-mardana: It's all one, isn't it?
Hṛdayānanda: Kīrtanānanda, his argument was, when he was an atheist, he said that actually the void is truth, and all categories or all varieties are illusion. So he said that we may think that actually spiritual variegatedness is transcendental, but that's actually also our illusion. That was his argument.
Prabhupāda: So what did you reply?
Hṛdayānanda: I replied that if categories are illusion, then his talking is also illusion.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice.
Hṛdayānanda: So I wouldn't let him say anything else.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, very good reply. "And you are also illusioned. Whatever nonsense you are talking, that is also illusion. Finish. Void, everything." Then what did he reply?
Hṛdayānanda: He said . . . I just wouldn't let him say anything. Whenever he tried to talk, I just said: "That's illusion."
(Prabhupāda laughs) (break)
Prabhupāda: This is . . . this reply we give to the Māyāvādīs. So we speak to the Māyāvādī guru that, "Whether you are in māyā? Because everything is māyā, so whether you are also in māyā?" So if he says: "Yes," then how he can become guru?
Karandhara: Professor Bharati said that.
Karandhara: Professor Bharati said. And when the students asked him, "Isn't everything in this world illusion?" he said: "Yes, everything is illusion, but I like it very much."
Prabhupāda: He likes it very much.
Karandhara: That's what he said.
Prabhupāda: Therefore he is a rascal. That proves that he is a rascal.
Hṛdayānanda: After that debate, many, many people have bought Bhagavad-gītās.
Prabhupāda: Oh, then it is good triumph. Yes. (japa)
(break) . . . ponds like this, we remember immediately Bengal. Yes. In Bengal there are many, many ponds.
What is called, this playing? What is this? Golf?
Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Golf. Golf course.
Prabhupāda: They are coming for playing golfs?
Karandhara: Yes, as soon as it's light, they'll be playing. They work hard all week so that they can play golf on Sunday.
Hṛdayānanda: They think that a gentleman should play golf.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the fashion of the society.
Karandhara: A man is considered very rich if he can play golf every day. The rich men play every day.
Prabhupāda: It is very expensive, golf?
Karandhara: Well, if you play golf, you don't have to work. People who are rich, they don't work. They just play golf all day. (break)
Citraka: . . . newspapers, that now he is follower of Śaṅkarācārya in India. The queen of Greece, she's a follower.
Prabhupāda: Queen of Greece. This cloth is very inconvenient . . . (break) . . . illusion. Accepting this illusion, wherefrom the idea came? Just like in the tailor's window, there are nice, beautiful women or men standing. That is illusion. Actually, that is neither man or woman; it is doll. But wherefrom the idea came of this illusion?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Unless there is a real man, a real woman, how the illusory man and woman is there, doll? Illusion means which is not fact. So the fact must be there—otherwise how the illusion, reflection, comes? Illusion is exemplified by the mirage, water in the desert. So the man is or the animal is running after water, but that is not water. This is illusion. But that does not mean there is no water.
Bali-mardana: Must be water.
Prabhupāda: This is the conclusion. Unless there is real water, how . . .
(aside) You can give around here.
How this illusion of water is there?
Bali-mardana: Does that mean it is not possible to conceive of something that does not exist somewhere?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the real fact.
Karandhara: Some of them say that Brahman creates illusion to forget that He is Brahman. They say that Brahman, the one, creates illusion to forget that He's Brahman. That's His līlā.
Prabhupāda: It is līlā. Then you have to accept that Brahman is a person.
Karandhara: Well, they say there is only one person. There's no varieties of persons.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you have to accept the origin, the person. That is our philosophy. Then you accept our philosophy.
Karandhara: Then they say: "Well it's not exactly a person; it's inconceivable."
Karandhara: They say: "It's not exactly a person; it's inconceivable."
Prabhupāda: Therefore you cannot say that He is not a person because He is inconceivable. You cannot say whether He is person or not person, because you are illusioned, and inconceivable . . . but why you are thinking that because you cannot say perfectly, everyone cannot say perfectly? They are thinking like that. Just like we have got experience: one body cannot say something, but the other can say. Practical experience. Just like this child cannot say something, but the father can say.
Bali-mardana: It's their envious attitude. They are envious.
Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not the question of envious. Because you are thinking that He is inconceivable, because you cannot say . . . but how can you say that another person cannot say? There are so many things I do not know. That does not mean that somebody else does not know. You may not know. Your experience is not mature. But how you can say: "Another person cannot have the experience"? So that is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā, vedāhaṁ samatītāni, māṁ ca veda na kaścana (BG 7.26): "I know everything, but nobody knows Me." There is the answer. So nobody knows Kṛṣṇa. That's a fact. But Kṛṣṇa reveals Himself to the devotee. That is also said, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām (BG 10.10).
- teṣām evānukampārtham
- aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ
- nāśayāmy ātma-bhāvastho
- jñāna-dīpena bhāsvatā
- (BG 10.11)
"Those who are devotees, to show them special favor, I remove the ignorance."
So Māyāvādīs, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15). They are Māyāvādīs. Māyā does not allow them to see the cause of all causes, Kṛṣṇa. But if Kṛṣṇa reveals Himself, who can check it? Otherwise He is not Brahman. Brahman means the greatest. Brahman means the greatest, and He is Para-brahman. There are greatest demigods like Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva, but He's greater than them. He says, aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Brahmā and Śiva, they have come out from Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu. So Brahmā, Śiva may not know, but that does not mean Kṛṣṇa does not know. So we are receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. We are not receiving . . . or we are receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa's representative, who knows Kṛṣṇa. So that is our position. We are not as good as Kṛṣṇa, just the Māyāvādī rascals say. No. We are nothing. We have no value. But we accept what Kṛṣṇa says. That is our qualification. A child is ignorant, but if he speaks what he has learned from his father, that speaking is perfect. Similarly, we admit we are in illusion. But what we are speaking, because that is spoken by Kṛṣṇa, that is not illusion. That is not illusion. That is perfect. (japa) (break)
Bali-mardana: It was raining very hard yesterday. Perhaps that's why.
Hṛdayānanda: All raining?
Prabhupāda: It may be rainwater.
Karandhara: Well, they fill it. Usually they fill it on Saturdays and Sundays.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is it.
Bali-mardana: It's too much for rainwater.
Karandhara: They practice fishing.
Karandhara: Fly casting.
Citraka: . . . open a temple in Greece?
Prabhupāda: I would like to open temples in every village, every city, what to speak of Greece. But we haven't got sufficient men.
Karandhara: This boy is from Greece.
Karandhara: This boy . . . (indistinct) . . . is from Greece.
Citraka: I will translate the books later.
Prabhupāda: Oh, then you can open. But alone . . . you can be assisted with some of our men. That's nice proposal. We want to open in every city, every village, village to village. So go this way or around the . . .?
Karandhara: This isn't too bad. We can go this way, Prabhupāda. We can go this way. It's not too wet.
Citraka: Sometimes you have said that the Greek mythology comes from the Purāṇas.
Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. In Greece, I think some people know of our movement.
Prabhupāda: Our movement. Because in the airport, as soon as some young men saw us, they chanted "Hare Kṛṣṇa!"
Citraka: That's very nice.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Maybe they are Europeans, but I had practical experience. (break) . . . which . . . that Park Avenue?
Bali-mardana: Wednesday they are having a meeting. Perhaps on Wednesday.
Prabhupāda: Wednesday. So you have to attend? No.
Bali-mardana: No, I don't have to attend. The lawyers attend. If I attend, it may ruin everything.
Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) . . . one is yogī. Karmī, jñānī, yogī or bhakta. What is the difference between karmīs, jñānīs, yogīs and bhakta?
Hṛdayānanda: Karmī wants to enjoy the gross senses, the jñānī wants to enjoy the subtle mind, mental speculation, the yogī wants to manipulate the universe, mystic powers . . .
Prabhupāda: Material power.
Hṛdayānanda: And a devotee has no material desires. (He wants) to serve Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And unless one is factually desireless, he cannot be happy. The karmī, jñānī, yogī, they are all full of desires. Therefore they are unhappy. Karmīs are the lowest of the unhappies, jñānīs are little advanced, yogīs are little more advanced, and the perfection is the bhakta, devotees. Na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagad-īśa kāmaye (CC Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4). This is bhakta. (break) . . . siddhi-kāmī sakali aśānta (CC Madhya 19.149). Bhukti means karmī, and mukti means jñānī. And siddhi, aṣṭa-siddhi, magic power, mystic power. That is called siddhi.
Those who are practicing yoga, if they are actually yogīs, they can have aṣṭa-siddhi, aṇimā, laghimā. They can become smaller than the smallest, heavier than the heaviest. Mahimā, prāpti. They can get anything they like. A yogī can get . . . suppose if you want a pomegranate from Kabul, he will get immediately. Yes. That is yogī. As if he is snatching from the tree, yes. Prāpti-siddhi, īśitā. They can force their influence upon anyone. Īśitā, vaśitā. Yogīs can hypnotize you. As he will say, you will act.
Prabhupāda: As he will say, you will act. These yogīs do that. They take something nonsense, "Now take gold," and you will think it is gold. Just like magician do.
Prabhupāda: Hypnotist. They create heaps of money, the magician. I have seen it. All false.
Hṛdayānanda: Like in the Bhāgavatam, Arjuna said like money created by magic word.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Prāpti-siddhi. Now they . . . we are flying by aeroplane. A yogī can fly without any instrument. As Durvāsā Muni, he went even Vaikuṇṭha-loka. Not Vaikuṇṭha-loka. Within this planet, there is one planet where . . . Śvetadvīpa, Lord Viṣṇu lives. He went there and saw Lord Viṣṇu personally to request him to save him. He refused, "No, I cannot. You go to Ambarīṣa Mahārāja. Beg pardon of him. If he pardons, then you will be saved." So to a devotee, innocent devotee, he had to fall down on his lotus feet, "Please save me." So what is the power of yogī? (japa)
Devotee: Is the pure devotee more merciful than Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Devotee: Is the pure devotee more merciful than Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Because Viṣṇu could not excuse him, but as soon as he came to Mahārāja Ambarīṣa, fell down and, "You take all my assets of pious activities. You be saved immediately." That is Vaiṣṇava. When he begged, humble, "Mahārāja Ambarīṣa, you save me. I am in danger," "Yes, you take all my pious activities' result. You be saved immediately." That is devotee. Viṣṇu refused, "No, I cannot give you protection." Therefore he is more merciful, although he was attacked, he was harassed. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was merciful, "Let them enjoy. I don't want to kill them." Kṛṣṇa said: "You must kill. You must kill. Why you are deviating from your path? You must kill."
Therefore he taught him Bhagavad-gītā, just to induce him to kill. But he was merciful, "No, they have done so much wrong to me, never mind. They are my relatives. I excuse. I don't want to fight." Yes. This is Bhagavad-gītā. You see? Arjuna is more merciful than Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wanted to see them all killed, because they were, I mean to say, offender to the devotee. Last time Kṛṣṇa says: "Arjuna, you fight or not fight, it is already settled. They are not going back home. They will be killed here. If you like, you take the credit. That's all. It is already settled." Then Arjuna understood that, "My Lord is so persistent. (laughter) Why shall I resist Him? All right, I will do what He says."
Bali-mardana: You are more merciful than any of them, Prabhupāda. You have come to the Western countries.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes, Vaiṣṇava is . . . if one man is real Vaiṣṇava. Just like see Jesus Christ. It is said that he took everyone's sin, and he was crucified. So how much merciful he is, just see. But these rascals have taken that, "Let us go on committing sinful activities, and Christ has taken contract; he will suffer, and we shall do this." Such rascals. You see. They say that, "Our Christian religion is so good that even we commit sinful acts, Christ will suffer, we shall not suffer." Just see.
Bali-mardana: I was reading yesterday in the Newsweek that now the priests, they are dating with women and having sex.
Prabhupāda: They must have, because they have no spiritual knowledge. Anyone who is not spiritually advanced, he cannot avoid the sex.
Hṛdayānanda: You said yesterday adānta-gobhiḥ.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Big, big yogīs, they fell victim to sex. Viśvāmitra Muni, many other instances. Saubhari, Saubhari Muni. He was meditating within the water, and some fish just, what is called, licked up his gender.
Prabhupāda: Copulating? Yes.
Devotee: Licked him.
Prabhupāda: And he felt sex desire. Just see. That itching sensation. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). Kaṇḍūyanam means itching. It is actually it is itching. The śāstra says it is kaṇḍūyanam. Kaṇḍūyanam means itching, the scratching, the itching. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham.
Devotee: (referring to Svarūpa Dāmodara) Our scientist.
Hṛdayānanda: Only one scientist.
Prabhupāda: (greeting) Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā (SB 1.5.22). Feeling all right?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. After . . . (indistinct)
(break) Yes. I wanted to know the . . . so there are five kinds of air, material air, and the spirit soul is floating in the five kinds of air. I want to know these different functional activities of the five kinds of air.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that also we admit. There are five kinds of air: prāṇa, apāna, like that. There are . . . by the yogīs, by breathing exercise, they control the five kinds of air. So that also we admit.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, the scientists, they do not understand the five kinds of air.
Prabhupāda: They do not know so many things. What they will understand? Because they do not understand, therefore it has to be rejected. They are fools. What do they understand? Superfluous. Simply they see something outward. Just like they see the tree, but what do they understand about the seed? What do they understand? The tree is coming from the seed, but what do they understand about the seed? They see the tree, that's all, like a child sees the tree, and "Oh, it is a big tree." But intelligent man sees the seed.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They also see that the original seed, the embryo, is . . . remains dormant.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. How it is made? That they do not know, how subtle things are being done . . .
(aside) We can go this way.
That is their ignorance. They do not know subtle things. Simply gross manifestation attracts their attention. That's all. Jaḍa-dṛṣṭi. It is called jaḍa-dṛṣṭi, material vision. No sukhā-dṛṣṭi. Every, every field, they have no finer introspection. Simply gross. They deal with gross things. Just like the same example: Here is a tree, but it is a fact, this tree has grown from a small seed. So what do they know about the seed, how it is manufactured, how it has got the potency of bringing out such a big tree? Not only that, in that seed there will be millions of fruits, and each fruit there will be millions of seeds, and each seed contains again millions of trees. Where is your science? Where is that potency?
Devotee: Is a seed conscious, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Everything is conscious. First of all, even gross manifestation we cannot understand, what to speak of consciousness. That is different thing. According to our philosophy, everything has got consciousness. Just like this tree has got consciousness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientists also say that they have consciousness.
Prabhupāda: But this tree's consciousness and my consciousness is different. My consciousness is developed. If you pinch on my body, my consciousness will be immediately protesting. But you cut, it will not protest. So consciousness is different. So there is nothing which has no consciousness, but it is a question of degree. It is a question of degree. The more the consciousness is covered, it is called material. The more the consciousness is developed, it is called spiritual. That is the difference between matter and spirit.
Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, that verse in the Gītā, that nityaḥ sarva-gataḥ sthāṇuḥ (BG 2.24).
Hṛdayānanda: That verse in the Bhagavad-gītā, that living beings are everywhere.
Prabhupāda: Yes, sarva-ga. Acalo 'yaṁ sthāṇur sarva-gaḥ. Nitya. Nityaḥ sthāṇur acalo 'yam (BG 2.24). That is described. The seeds are everywhere. Just like they are trying to come out from this. You will find sometimes fracture, grass is coming. As soon as there is opportunity, they want to express the consciousness. Those who fall down . . . kṣīṇe puṇye punaḥ martya-lokaṁ viśanti (BG 9.21). They come with waters, rainwater, and falls down on the ground and become grass. Then gradually, evolution.
Hṛdayānanda: That's terrible.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino . . . (BG 8.16). How subtle laws are working, what do they know, the scientists? Therefore their so-called knowledge is māyayā apahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15): actual knowledge is taken away by māyā. And they are thinking, "I am very learned man, scholar." But actual knowledge is taken. Māyayā apahṛta-jñānāḥ. Why? Āsuri-bhāva. They won't accept God. Therefore they are all fools. In spite of all these degrees, they are all fools. Therefore they cannot explain everything very nicely. "In future we shall see."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are saying that "We are beginning to learn more and more . . ."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means that we are fool. While you are in the process of learning, that means you are fool. Say directly that, "We are fool." That is gentlemanliness. You do not know; still, you poses, "I am . . . we are scholar, we are scientist. Give us Nobel Prize." You see? This is going on. We don't want Nobel Prize. We are giving the topmost knowledge. We don't hanker after Nobel Prize. But they give false knowledge and hanker after Nobel Prize. Just see.
Their real aim is how to get the Nobel Prize by cheating. That is their real aim. How an educated man, learned man, will cheat? So therefore my Guru Mahārāja used to say that, "This modern human society—or always—it is a society of the cheaters and the cheated." Somebody is cheating and somebody's cheated, and they have combined together to make a so-called civilization.
Karandhara: Prabhupāda, you know the scientist you quoted in Easy Journey? You quoted an article from the newspaper in Easy Journey about the two scientists who were studying anti-matter?
Karandhara: Well, about a year ago another scientist came forward, and he charged that those two scientists actually stole the knowledge from him. They were working with him, and they stole it to win Nobel Prize.
Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many scientists like that. Just like this Marconi, he stole the knowledge from Dr. Jagadish Chandra Bose. You know that?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I have heard this.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadish Chandra . . . I was present. He said that, "This man cheated me. I talked with him, next morning he published the theory."
Karandhara: About radio?
Prabhupāda: No, newspaper. Because both of them were friends, scientists, they talked. And he took the clue, immediately published the theory.
Bali-mardana: Which theory was that?
Prabhupāda: That Marconi wireless.
Bali-mardana: Wireless, radio.
Prabhupāda: Yes, radio.
Prabhupāda: That was Jagadish Chandra Bose's discovery. But the government will not give the credit to the Indians. Because Jagadish Chandra Bose happened to be Indian. These Britishers, they are so much envious. Therefore they will never admit that Bhagavad-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago. They'll bring all within the Christian period. That is their rascaldom.
Devotee: We went to a college and gave a class last week where the professor was saying that the Bhagavad-gītā is only two thousand years old, like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They will never accept this.
Yaśomatīnandana: One stupid guy was saying that there is some quotation in the Bhagavad-gītā from Book of John.
Yaśomatīnandana: One stupid person, one man.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is another rascaldom. Tava cārjuna (BG 4.5).
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about the heart transplant? The spirit soul is within the heart, but when the . . . in the medical science nowadays, the old heart can be replaced by a new one. So what happens with the spirit soul with the old one?
Prabhupāda: But that does not mean that new ones will increase their duration of life. That is our challenge.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the personality is changed?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Why not?
Prabhupāda: Why changed? Suppose if I sit from this chair to this chair. Why I am changed? I can change my seat. It does not mean that I am changed.
Karandhara: Change the heart also. The heart can change.
Prabhupāda: The heart is seat, sitting place.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the new heart had spirit soul from the new one.
Prabhupāda: Spirit soul, new or old there is. But if you can prove by changing the heart you can increase the duration of life, then you can catch the spirit soul.
Karandhara: That they're not able to do.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That is their nonsense.
Bali-mardana: None of them have lived very long.
Prabhupāda: No, they cannot be. Because by karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1), by superior arrangement, karmaṇā, you have got this body. So you have to live within this body certain age. So if you change the body, new, that doesn't mean you prolong your life. That is not possible. It is the duration of life, that is considered. They are thinking by changing the heart they will increase the duration of life. That is not possible.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it is some sort of artificial transmigration?
Prabhupāda: Yes, like that. That transmigration taken . . . that is already explained in Bhagavad-gītā. Just like a baby becomes a child, child becomes boy, boy becomes youth, like that. Transmigration is going on continually. This is another type of transmigration. So it is a fact that by changing the heart the duration is not . . .?
Bali-mardana: No, most of them, they have lived a very short times. But still is it a fact that the soul is transplanted from one body to another body?
Prabhupāda: That can be done, yes. Sometimes yogīs, they can perform that better body, he transfers himself into that body. Just Śaṅkarācārya did. Yes.
Karandhara: What they do, though, they wait till someone's dying or dead, and immediately after they die, they take the heart. From somebody who had the weak heart they transplant, change the heart.
Prabhupāda: So what . . .? There is no benefit.
Karandhara: But that does not mean that the soul from the old heart, or the new heart, is being changed into the new body.
Bali-mardana: The soul has already left. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . the soul is individual. As I told yesterday that dead body has got the ingredients to produce life, but that the man who has left his body, you cannot produce him. That is the proof of individuality. That is the proof of individuality.
Bali-mardana: (aside to devotee) . . . the old guy's soul has already left.
Bali-mardana: I was saying that they transplant the heart . . . after the first man, his soul has already gone, then they take his heart and put it into the other man, who has a weak heart. So all it means is that the soul is going from one heart to another heart, not that the soul . . . that they are taking the soul with it when they put the heart in.
Prabhupāda: He is destined to live in that body for a certain years. So you may change whatever you like.
Karandhara: The heart is just an instrument in the machine.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a place.
Bali-mardana: Now it's very clear. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . in the Bhāgavata: karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). There is superior overlooking. That is Kṛṣṇa, anumantā, upadraṣṭā. Upadraṣṭā anumantā.
Karandhara: One man, Dr. Blaiberg from South Africa, he was the first successful heart transplant. So as soon as he got out of the hospital, he started drinking and having sex life. (laughter) He was saying: "How wonderful science is. It can prolong my enjoyment." Then he died about a year later from too much . . .
Prabhupāda: That is material life. As soon as they get some opportunity, they will have sex. That is the only hope. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukham (SB 7.9.45). Here the only happiness is sex. Otherwise, they are working so hard like asses. Why? Only for that sex. The only aim is, "I will enjoy sex at night." That's all. That is the only. Yan maithunādi. It is stated in the Bhāgavata. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham. They are attracted with the most abominable thing, sex life. Yes. Tuccham. Tuccham means very abominable, very insignificant thing.
The position of the sex, the . . . how nasty it is. Just like crows, they enjoy in a nasty place. That is stated in the Bhāgavata: tad vāyasa-tīrtham (SB 1.5.10). Vāyasa means crows. The crows, as they enjoy . . .
(break) . . . gṛham andha-kūpam, ātma-pātam. As soon as you fall down, you are killed. You are killed. This example is given. That is stated in Bhāgavata. When a woman comes to serve you, you must know it is covered well. As soon as you fall down, then you are finished. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta (SB 7.5.5). Therefore in the Vedic system, first brahmacārī, become brahmacārī. Learn how to avoid sex: celibacy. That is first instruction. And if you are completely unable, all right, get yourself married. Otherwise, there is no need of sex life. Why one should have sex life?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then how to continue the species?
Prabhupāda: Why you should continue? (laughter) You finish it, this condemned world, where you are simply suffering. Why should you continue it?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because that is the laws of nature.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Laws of nature if you want. If you want to be condemned, then laws of nature is there. Otherwise, laws of nature is teaching you how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like police. Police business is to make you lawful. If you become lawful, there is no question of police. There is no question of police law. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Māyā is kicking you one after another so that you may come to sense that, "This life is not good." But we are so foolish that we say: "No, it is good." Yan maithunādi. "There is sex life. Oh, it is very good." This is the position.
Devotee: You give the analogy in the Bhagavad-gītā that it's like pouring gas onto a fire you're trying to put out.
Hṛdayānanda: (explaining) He said like putting gas on the fire. Gasoline on the fire.
Prabhupāda: Ah. So increase the fire. Yes. But because we have got this body, we have to utilize it to make the best use of a bad bargain. Therefore marriage is allowed, gṛhastha life is allowed—not for increasing sex life, but to finish it as soon as possible.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, even in the very lower forms of life, there are some species, they reproduce without any sex. It's called asexual reproduction.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Oh, yes. These bugs, bedbugs, they produce by this blood. You kill . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We cannot check reproduction.
Prabhupāda: No, how can you check? There are so many living entities. They have come to this material world to enjoy. So the reproduction must go on. Just like you cannot stop the jail. You come out, but another is ready to enter it. That is not possible.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it is within this material platform that we develop the consciousness by which . . .
Prabhupāda: That was answered by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. One of His devotee, Vāsudeva Datta, he said: "Sir, You have come. You take all the living entities of this universe and release them from this life. And if You think that they are so sinful, they cannot be, then give their all sins to me. But You take them."
So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said: "Suppose if I take this universe, the all living entities, do you think the business will be finished? This universe is just like a mustard seed in the bag of mustard seed." (laughs) So from the bag of mustard seed, if you take one mustard seed, what is the loss there? So this cannot be stopped. So anantāya kalpate (CC Madhya 19.140). There are so many, unlimited number of living entities. So this will go on.
Yaśomatīnandana: You said in the Bhāgavatam that this material world is like a correction house for the living entity.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So everybody should develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Jaya, all glories . . .
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the only remedy. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). (break)
Hṛdayānanda: . . . to have a spiritual master. (break)
Prabhupāda: But this advancement of material civilization means entrapping the entrapped. The living entity is already entrapped, and he is allured by further entrapment. Jaḍa-vidyā māyāra . . . (indistinct) . . . jaḍa-vidyā, material advancement of civilization, means expanding the influence of māyā. Why? Now, anitya saṁsāra. You cannot live here. You have to give up this place. But still, you are thinking to make it a permanent settlement. That is not possible. Everyone knows he will not be allowed to stay. But still insisting, gorgeous arrangement, how we can be . . . how we can become immortal.
The scientists bluffing, "Yes, you will become immortal. We are finding out the means." (laughs) But he will die. That means he is ass. He is allured by these false words; therefore he is ass. Jībake karaye gādhā. This is Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's song. Anitya saṁsāra, this temporary world, he is attracted with this temporary. He cannot live here, he cannot stay here, he cannot enjoy here. That's a fact. But he is being allured. That means he is becoming more and more ass. Ass, because they are believing still, "No, by scientific method we shall do that, we shall do that. We shall cure all diseases. We shall live for good. There will be no more death, and we are happy." That means you are becoming . . . this material advancement of knowledge means you are becoming more and more asses.
(car approaches temple) (devotees offering obeisances)
Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end)