750915 - Morning Walk - Vrndavana
Prabhupāda: . . . Brahmānanda explain. Trying for sense gratification. They do not know it, that what is the purpose of life.
Brahmānanda: That is their ignorance.
Prabhupāda: So our mission is to eradicate this ignorance. That, they are living in a wrong conception of life. That is the point. The human society is making so-called progress under wrong conception of life. Hmm? What is the answer? Therefore they have been described as mūḍha because they are living in a wrong conception, animal life. Wherefrom you have come?
Vāsughoṣa: Kathmandu. Tonight I will go to Hyderabad. I am collecting there. But one thing I find even when we explain to these people, you know. . . Just like smoking cigarettes. In Kathmandu I was explaining to people, "What kind of enjoyment is this from smoking cigarettes? You are coughing. . ." This is the way Acyutānanda Swami also describes, so I picked up from him. "You are coughing. You are killing yourself." He also described like this, "Intoxication means poison. Toxic means poison. So this is intoxication. You are actually administering poison. What kind of sanity is this?" So all those people, they told me, "Well, I'll give up cigarettes later."
Prabhupāda: At least they admit the fault, hmm? Do they?
Vāsughoṣa: Yes, some people . . . One hippie I was talking to, he was saying, "I believe in technology and Darwin's theory of evolution." So I said, "The greatest technologists in America have said that cigarettes can kill you. Why are you smoking these cigarettes?" He said, "Yes, I want to give it up," but he kept on smoking. They are addicted. And to Indian people I explained about karma, you know, "according to your activity," and they all admit, "Yes, there is karma." So I said: "Why don't you serve Kṛṣṇa?" They said, "Later, later." They all say like that.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dhṛṣṭaketu: So, your instructions in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam can stop their lust? It can stop . . . By hearing from Vedic authorities, their lust can be dissolved? Or do they have to just simply be frustrated in their attempts to enjoy sense gratification?
Prabhupāda: They are being frustrated. Who is successful in the material world? Have you got any instance that he is successful? (pause) Then?
Vāsughoṣa: In every field someone is miserable. Just in America there was one lady, very famous etiquette expert, Amy Vanderbilt. So she jumped out of her window. She was sixty-nine years old.
Prabhupāda: There are many. I saw in Detroit, I think. The bridge is covered?
Brahmānanda: San Francisco. The Golden Gate Bridge they have put . . .
Prabhupāda: Not Golden Gate. That San Diego, I think. We crossed one bridge to go to the . . .
Brahmānanda: Oh, yes, San Diego also. They have these fences to keep . . . So when people jump off, they are caught by the fences. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: And I think in Berkeley? The tower?
Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. In the college university they have a big clock tower . . .
Prabhupāda: These are the signs how they are disappointed. They are always ready to commit suicide. So where is success?
Vāsughoṣa: They are practically committing suicide by their activities.
Prabhupāda: That is also another side. But practically you see.
Vāsughoṣa: Hmm. But by this smoking cigarettes, meat-eating . . . I mean, we explain to them that doctors have found that meat-eating . . .
Prabhupāda: I have seen about some thirty years ago, one man was sitting, I was traveling in the railway apartment, and all of a sudden he jumped through the window.
Prabhupāda: All of a sudden. He was sitting nicely. What he was thinking I do not know. But he took the opportunity of open window and jumped. I have seen it.
Indian man (1): A kind of insanity overpowered him.
Prabhupāda: Insanity . . . everyone is overpowered by insanity, anyone in this material world and who is trying to be happy here. Everyone is in insanity. They are trying to different way. They do not know the only solution is, as Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇa . . . (BG 18.66). That they do not, neither they'll accept.
Vāsughoṣa: Especially Indian people, you know, they say: "Well, if I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, who will feed me?"
Prabhupāda: No, no, Indian, American—everyone. Why you are, American, you are so proud of your . . .?
Vāsughoṣa: No. (laughter) No, but because in India people know that they should surrender to Kṛṣṇa, no?
Prabhupāda: But you also know.
Vāsughoṣa: But the general mass, I mean, of Americans, they don't understand.
Prabhupāda: These are faulty, fault-finding. It is no good. Everyone. Kṛṣṇa did not say for Indian or American. For everyone. But at the present moment Indians are misled that they have been, I mean to say, induced to think that if they become like American or Western people they will be happy. That is misleading.
Vāsughoṣa: We tell them . . . I was telling them that in America the big thing is they want to raise the standard of living, but then those people who had raised the standard of living, they are also killing themselves. But they don't want to listen. Actually, in Nepal I was reading every day in the paper the king was saying that "Our goal is economic development. That is the top priority. Number-one priority is economic development."
Prabhupāda: Who? Which king?
Vāsughoṣa: King of Nepal, King Birendra. He's the only Hindu king in the world. He has so many . . . He is embarking on so many programs of economic development in his country.
Prabhupāda: Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). They have been described as "chewing the chewed." They have no eyes to see that Europe and America, they have developed so much economically, but what is the peace there? They're jumping quietly. You see? (laughter) They are going to chew the same thing, chewing the chewed.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dhṛṣṭaketu: Does a person have to experience enough frustration to give up this process of . . .
Prabhupāda: Frustration, that already said, that everyone is frustrated. But because they are mūḍhas, they do not know that they are being frustrated. That is the point. Everyone is frustrated.
Dhṛṣṭaketu: That goes on perpetually until they receive the mercy of a pure devotee?
Dhṛṣṭaketu: That frustration or that . . .
Prabhupāda: Well . . . Kṛṣṇa failed to give mercy, and what devotee will do? They are stubborn to stick to their principle. Kṛṣṇa said personally, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām (BG 18.66), but who is going to do that? And what the devotees will do?
Vāsughoṣa: If we just engage them in devotional service, will they ultimately become purified?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our mission. Somehow or other go on repeatedly saying.
Vāsughoṣa: Because even that atheist hippie, when he was . . . After he was talking to me about the cigarettes, then the next morning I sold him a book, so he gave twenty rupees.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the way. Some way or other, induce. (dogs barking) (break) Obstinacy. What is that, "dog obstinacy"?
Dhṛṣṭaketu: They say "Stubborn as an ass."
Prabhupāda: Hmm. (break) . . . selling different types of religious system so that one may not have to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. This is going on.
Vāsughoṣa: Many people were . . . On the way to . . . Even on the way to here . . .
Prabhupāda: And big, big swamis are saying, "Yes, whatever you manufacture, it is all right." Yatha mat tatha pat: "Whatever ways you manufacture by concoction, that is all right." So they are satisfied. If somebody says that "You surrender unto me," that is not very palatable. If somebody says, "No, you can surrender anywhere," that is very palatable.
Brahmānanda: Because that means no surrender. To surrender anywhere . . .
Brahmānanda: . . . means no surrender.
Brahmānanda: Then they're satisfied.
Vāsughoṣa: Many people say: "We have to do our karma." They are telling me, "Do your duty."
Prabhupāda: This is the duty: you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. This is the only duty.
Vāsughoṣa: They say their family, their wife, their job, their children, all these things.
Brahmānanda: Sometimes they say: "When He wills it, then I will do it." (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is not willing, when He says that "You do this"?
Vāsughoṣa: And they say, "When He makes my heart . . . when He puts it in my heart, and when He makes my heart open up to Him, then I will. . ."
Prabhupāda: And you have no heart. You have simply stone. (laughter) That is sung by some Vaiṣṇava, that "My heart is harder than the stone, because I know that even the stone melts by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, but my heart does not melt. Therefore I think it is harder than the stone."
Indian man (2): Once somebody asked Prabhupāda Mahārāja in Calcutta that "When can you show me Kṛṣṇa?" Prabhupāda Mahārāja said that "Here is Kṛṣṇa. You cannot see because your eyes are stones. They are not the eyes. If you have got the eyes, you can see it here."
Indian man (2): "And these people have not come to worship stone. They have come to see Kṛṣṇa, and they are decorating, and they know that Kṛṣṇa is here." That at Calcutta, you said.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. So what did he say?
Indian man (2): Yes, Prabhupāda, he accepted immediately.
Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we should return.
Prabhupāda: Return? All right. (break) . . . seen by premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). Unless there is love for God, who can see God? Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu. One who is lover of God, such saintly person, twenty-four hours he sees simply God, nothing else. (break)
Hari-śauri: . . . last night, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he was saying that if everything is ultimately spiritual, if one is spiritually advanced, he sees everything as spiritual. Then if everything is spiritual, then we can carry on just doing the same things that we're doing now, because it's all for God.
Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa says that, "Everything is My energy, but . . ." Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni nāhaṁ teṣu (BG 9.4): "But I am not there." This is the answer. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's expansion, but not that everything is Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (2): It is also not spiritual.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Indian man (2): The energy is there, but it is not spiritual.
Prabhupāda: No, it is spiritual, but because I do not know Kṛṣṇa, therefore I see material. Just like this microphone. It is being used for Kṛṣṇa; therefore it is spiritual. Actually, originally it is from Kṛṣṇa. So we are not using these material things. Everything, whatever we are using, that is spiritual.
Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if this is spiritual, spiritual means eternal. But this microphone will fall to pieces.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but scientifically it will keep the energy, conservation of energy. Even it is destroyed, it will remain. The material manifestation means bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). It is sometimes destroyed and sometimes manifest. But the energy is there.
Indian man (2): And also remain in different form.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Just like this is earth. Now you prepare hundreds or thousands of earthen pots and dolls. When it is destroyed, again it is earth. So when it is manifested, it is earth. When it is not manifested, it is earth. So from the spiritual energy of Kṛṣṇa everything becomes manifested, and therefore originally it is spiritual. Kṛṣṇa said, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir . . . bhinnā me prakṛtiḥ (BG 7.4): "It is My prakṛti, energy." So how Kṛṣṇa's energy can be material? Because we forget Kṛṣṇa, therefore it appears material.
Devotee (3): Poor vision.
Prabhupāda: (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) (break) . . . Mahāprabhu, as soon as He entered the Jagannātha temple He immediately fainted. Did He see the wooden Jagannātha? It is a question of seeing and prepare the eyes to see.
Vāsughoṣa: Once I was . . . I went to one Gauḍīya maṭha in South India, and I showed them a picture of our Deities in Hyderabad. They said, "This Kṛṣṇa is white." So later on I told that story to Acyutānanda Swami, and he said, "Do you know what I tell those people? I say, 'No, Kṛṣṇa is not white. You just can't see Kṛṣṇa.'" So like that, sometimes we are criticized by them for Kṛṣṇa in the Deity being white. (break)
Hari-śauri: . . . Kṛṣṇa's energy is all-spiritual, then why in Bhagavad-gītā does Kṛṣṇa make a distinction—"My separated material energy"? Why does He say "separated"?
Prabhupāda: Separated . . . Just like I am talking and this will be reproduced as it is, although it is separated.
Hari-śauri: So He's not personally present there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. When you replay, the same voice will come, but I am not there. So if you want to utilize this separated energy for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it will help you. Just like the Deity. Everyone knows it is stone, but why we are worshiping stone?
Hari-śauri: It is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is as good as Kṛṣṇa. It is not worshiping the stone. Huh?
Indian man (2): Worship, who are worshiping, it never comes to their mind that it is a stone.
Prabhupāda: No. Therefore the . . . That is the qualification. (break) . . . qualified, you will see it is spiritual.
Vāsughoṣa: There are some religions that, especially the one I am born in, they were especially preaching, you know, that "You should never see a graven image of God."
Vāsughoṣa: "You should never see a graven image of God."
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is required, because you are not competent to see God everywhere.
Vāsughoṣa: No, but they . . .
Brahmānanda: They prohibit.
Vāsughoṣa: They prohibit the worship of this vigraha. They say that "God cannot be made into a graven image."
Brahmānanda: They say it is blasphemy.
Prabhupāda: No. Yes, we also say. Although everything is expansion of the energy of Kṛṣṇa, not that everything is Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference between Māyāvāda philosophy and Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Vaiṣṇava philosophy takes everything as expansion of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Parasya brāhmaṇa śaktiḥ. (aside:) Jaya. Sarvedam akhilaṁ jagat. Everything is expansion of the energy of the Supreme Brahman. Kṛṣṇa confirms it, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam. Without Kṛṣṇa, there is no existence. But that does not mean anything existentional is Kṛṣṇa. That is Māyāvāda philosophy.
Brahmānanda: These religions even say that it is offensive to say the name of God.
Prabhupāda: So what can I do? (laughter) If the rascal says something, so what can I do?
Brahmānanda: Even when they write the word "God," they don't say "g, o, d." They say "g, dash," then "d," so that they've indicated God, but they haven't said "God."
Vāsughoṣa: "It's too holy to pronounce," that's what they . . .
Prabhupāda: No, they can say, "G, zero, and d." (laughter) Zero between g and d. That will be nice explanation.
Devotee (4): Zero signifies their love for Him.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Zero is controlling both sides, g and d. Just like if you multiply something by zero, what it becomes?
Prabhupāda: That's all. Śūnyavādī. (break)
Vāsughoṣa: . . . people are following very strictly, how can we preach to them?
Vāsughoṣa: Some of those people who are following these religions very strictly, how do we preach to them, those people?
Prabhupāda: Ask them, "What do you mean by religion?"
Vāsughoṣa: Well, they will say what is in their śāstra, their Bible.
Prabhupāda: Let them say what is there. Then you can talk with them.
Brahmānanda: They say, "I love God. I go to church every . . . Once a week I go, Sunday morning. I make my prayer. So what more? I have my family. I have my job."
Vāsughoṣa: But I was reading in this National Geographic Magazine, there is one sect of people in New York City, very orthodox following. You know, they don't even go to cinema. They don't . . . When they have free time they are studying the śāstras, their śāstras. They are very strict. They don't even shave their faces, because it says, "Do not round the corner of your face." So they have these big beards like this, and their whole life is dedicated like this to study reading and . . . They also sing and dance.
Prabhupāda: That is something good.
Brahmānanda: When I was a teacher in New York I taught in one of their schools. I taught the little children . . . (break)
Prabhupāda: After that, he is fit down. Then, if Life Member comes, he can simply stay in the guest room without any charges for three days. (break)
Dhṛṣṭaketu: . . . that one who is making progress by how he feels, or should he just simply execute the order of the spiritual master and not worry about how he feels? How should . . . In other words . . .
Prabhupāda: If he is making progress, he must feel. If he is not making progress, then he will not feel.
Dhṛṣṭaketu: And that feeling is a willingness to serve Kṛṣṇa or . . .
Prabhupāda: No, that is always. Whether he is actually serving Kṛṣṇa. . . That is devotion. So if he is actually serving Kṛṣṇa, then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt bhajana-kriyā. Bhajana-kriyā means anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt (CC Madhya 23.14). This is the result. If his anartha is not decreasing, or becoming zero, then he is not making bhajana. He is doing something else.
Dhṛṣṭaketu: And if he's not feeling increased ecstasy, then he should try to change his position or try to perform . . .
Prabhupāda: No. There is no change of position. Position is the same.
Dhṛṣṭaketu: Because once this question was asked that . . . in class a devotee asked that "I'm losing my taste for serving the Deity, and I don't know what to do," and so they asked this question. So . . .
Prabhupāda: He can chant. There is no question of "I am losing interest." If he is actually following the rules and regulation, there is no question of losing interest.
Hari-śauri: There is never any decrease.
Dhṛṣṭaketu: You mean if one simply follows everything that is outlined in the temple schedule and . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. That should be strictly followed.
Dhṛṣṭaketu: Then his feeling will gradually develop. He'll gradually develop love, then.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā. If his anartha is decreased, then he becomes firmly fixed up. There is no question of decreasing. (end).