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751004 - Conversation - Mauritius

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

751004R1-MAURITIUS - October 04, 1975 - 52:54 Minutes

(Prabhupāda is taking breakfast prasādam)

Brahmānanda: . . . it becomes a young man, but the same scar is on his body. So they will say it's the same body.

Prabhupāda: But the size of the body has changed.

Brahmānanda: The size has changed. It has grown, increased.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It looks different, completely. It looks different. There is no similarity.

Prabhupāda: Huh, yes. There is no similarity. Why the child . . . there was no mustaches. Why you have mustaches? How you can say: "The same body"? You shall have to give your own argument. Child had no mustaches, you have got now mustaches. How you can say the same body? The child had no sex desire; now you have got sex desire.

Brahmānanda: They would say all these things are dormant within the child's body, and now they are coming out.

Prabhupāda: That we also say, but that body not . . . that "dormant" means dormant in the soul, not in the body. That is the knowledge. Dormant it is, but dormant in the soul, not in the body.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have to admit that, that a different body, because if the body is simply made of food and they're eating so much and evacuating so much, then it has to be a different body.

Prabhupāda: No, it is different body, unless undoubtedly. If they foolishly argue, that is different thing. Therefore rascal. Their argument has no value. How you can say same body? So many changes. The body is changed. (to Indian man) What is that? Huh, it was not garam?

Indian man (1): No, garam not. (not hot) . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Jaya. So this argument, how he can refute, that he has died twenty-two years?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, he can also say that he has lived twenty-two years, because he has no perception of any life before that time. He can't remember living before.

Brahmānanda: "Before, I was not alive. Now I am alive, so I have lived for twenty-two years. Before, I was dead—I was not alive. Now I am alive, so I've been alive for twenty-two years."

Prabhupāda: So before, you were not alive. Then how your life came?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The combination of . . .

Prabhupāda: Do it. Again foolishness. These rascals . . . (laughs) Then, if you can create life, then where is the question of dead body? You create again. Give life again. If you are so competent that you can give life, combination, then this dead body is there. You bring chemicals and inject.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The same chemicals are there, too. The same chemicals, living body, dead body—five minutes before, five after—is the same chemicals. But they can't explain why there is such a drastic difference.

Prabhupāda: Huh, what is that same chemical?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the living body, two minutes before death and two minutes after . . .

Prabhupāda: Hah, hah . . . so what is that? Name that, what is that chemical. Then bring it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Let him try and make life. Not possible.

Prabhupāda: If you know the chemical, then you bring it. Chemical is available. Why this is dead? What they will answer? What this chemical is wanting, that it is dead?

Brahmānanda: We may not know . . .

Prabhupāda: Then, you rascal, why you are talking? You do not know. (laughter)

Brahmānanda: But, then, neither do you know.

Prabhupāda: Huh? No . . .

Brahmānanda: You can say soul, but you don't . . .

Prabhupāda: No. But you cannot answer my question, therefore you are more rascal than me. You cannot answer. Your . . . you are . . .

Harikeśa: You have the position. He's in a position. He cannot answer.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You say that chemical is missing. I say "What is that chemical?"

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, but the chemical is not missing.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The same chemical is there. Two minutes before death and two minutes after death, the body chemistry has not changed so much.

Prabhupāda: No. What is that missing that it is dead?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They can't answer.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are fool. You cannot answer.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because it's not a question of chemicals. Actually, they don't know what life is.

Prabhupāda: Then they're foolish. You have . . . he has to take knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, dehino 'smin yathā . . . (BG 2.13) "Within this body there is soul."

Brahmānanda: You say there's a soul, but we've never seen a soul. It may be your imagination.

Prabhupāda: You may not see. You have not seen your forefather. That does not mean . . . this is, that is all bad argument. Why you do believe? Your eyes are so imperfect; still, the you say: "I did not see," "I want to see." What the value of your eyes? You see the sun globe—a small disc. But is it so? Then how do you know that it is so big?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: By hearing.

Prabhupāda: By hearing. That is important. Not by seeing. Therefore śruti, Veda, is important, not your eyes.

Harikeśa: When people die, though, there is usually some cause.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: When people die, there's some cause. Like they have a heart attack or they get hit by a car or some disease. So that, so that death is, is caused by the disease . . .

Prabhupāda: That is not the cause. That is the effect. You foolish, do you not know. You are taking it cause.

Harikeśa: Well, when you get hit by a car, that's a cause.

Prabhupāda: Just like one man becomes insolvent, loses everything. So he said that, "I had no money, therefore you become insolvent." But that is not the fact. He could not manage; therefore there was scarcity of money and he became failure. So that is effect. On account of his bad management he came to a position that he could not pay to his creditor, and his business is failure. So that insolvency is not the cause, it is the effect.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhīṣma was able to remain in his body even on a bed of arrows.

Prabhupāda: So when you are going to die, these are the . . . on account of imminent death, these are the effects.

Harikeśa: But that means that the body breaks down.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Harikeśa: The body breaks down.

Prabhupāda: At a certain period it will break.

Harikeśa: So that is the cause, the body breaking down.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. So you say heart failure is the cause. No. The body is breaking, therefore heart failure.

Harikeśa: So death means the body breaks.

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all your answer . . . you say the heart failure is the cause the man is dying. I say that because the man is dying, the heart is failure. So heart failure is not the cause; it is the effect.

Harikeśa: That's very difficult . . .

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because his karma in that body is running out, he has to leave.

Brahmānanda: But if I can get some machine that will make the heart keep on beating, then the man won't die.

Prabhupāda: No. That you are failure. You have got so many machines. You go on, keeping the heart going on. That is not possible.

Harikeśa: Finally they just pull out the plug. The doctor kicks the plug one day.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.

Brahmānanda: At the present moment, I was reading, there’s one girl in America, New Jersey, teenage girl. And for some unknown reason she went to sleep one night, and in the morning she did not wake up. So they then rushed her to the hospital, and they have been having artificial machine that is keeping her alive, and this has been going on for one month. And all of her bodily functions are becoming more and more diminished, but still, by this machine, she’s alive. Now this has gone on for one month. So now they don't know what to do with her. Should they keep her like this, just running on the machine, or should they stop the machine and then she'll die? This is a big legal problem. They don't know what . . . if they stop the machine, they'll be accused of manslaughter.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some Catholic priest said that better to let her die, because this is God's way.

Prabhupāda: Then he has to accept the God's way and give up the machine.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But in a situation like that, isn't it more valuable to preserve human life because there's the chance . . .

Prabhupāda: What is the use?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a chance that somehow or another, they might be . . .

Prabhupāda: Why should you take the chance? You are perplexed with overpopulation, and why you want to stay? One side, you are perplexed with overpopulation. Let him die.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they can use the argument that you're saying that human life is simply for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness.

Prabhupāda: No, from his argument, why should you try to keep it? Let him die.

Cyavana: They're afraid of death. They're afraid of death. No one wants to die.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're afraid someone will take them off the machine, too.

Cyavana: We want to live as long as we can.

Prabhupāda: Then you have to accept that your killing child, abortion, that is sinful.

Cyavana: It's easier for the mind to accept what is apparent to the senses. For example, to accept that I am this body is easier for my mind than to accept a philosophy which you say is that we are not this body. That is very difficult for my mind to accept, whereas I can accept very immediately that I am this body.

Prabhupāda: Because it is difficult, therefore you are a fool. That proves that you are a fool.

Cyavana: Why should I strive for something so difficult, such a philosophical understanding, when I can live very happily with this body?

Prabhupāda: But because you do not want to die. You want happiness.

Cyavana: So I can enjoy this body.

Prabhupāda: You cannot. That is the difficulty. You want, but you cannot. You want. That I know. But you cannot do it.

Harikeśa: You never see happy people.

Prabhupāda: That is their ignorance. They're accepting unhappiness as happiness.

Brahmānanda: Well, in this world there has to be some unhappiness and there has to be some happiness.

Cyavana: You have to take the good with the bad.

Prabhupāda: But we are trying to give you happiness only, no unhappiness.

Cyavana: But that's not possible.

Brahmānanda: That's artificial.

Prabhupāda: That you say, but we know. You rascals . . .

Cyavana: We cannot see.

Prabhupāda: You cannot see, but you will see if you be trained up. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Cyavana: But it is easier for us to remain here and enjoy a little bit and accept a little suffering, accept this body.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa said that, "Bhagavad-gītā should be discussed among My devotees, not among the rascals." It will be waste of time. Ya imaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. Find out this verse.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ
mad bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati
bhaktiṁ mayi paraṁ kṛtvā
mām evaiṣyaty asaṁśayaḥ
(BG 18.68)

"For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me."

Prabhupāda: Not to the fools and rascals. So first of all, to give them chance, let them come to the temple, take prasādam, hear saṅkīrtana, offer obeisances by imitating others. In this way, when they become little devotee, then instruct. Otherwise it will be useless. You'll waste your time by arguing.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You have given the example that the field has to be ploughed before the seed is sown, cultivated.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Cyavana: The mind has to want that higher taste.

Prabhupāda: Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12).

Cyavana: Yes. Then they can accept.

Prabhupāda: So this process . . . bring the . . . invite them. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance, give them prasādam. Everyone will take part in this way. Not immediately instruct him that, "You are not this body; you are soul." You'll will not be able to.

Cyavana: It's too difficult.

Prabhupāda: Therefore this process is recommended. Caitanya Mahāprabhu argued with Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, not with ordinary public. Ordinary public—"Go on chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and dancing." Never argued, neither He discussed Bhāgavatam. For ordinary public, four hours' kīrtana, chanting and dancing, bās. And then give them sufficient prasādam "Take prasāda." This process. Because unless he has got little śraddhā, he will simply put some false argument and waste your time. Not in the beginning. Mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). First of all create him a devotee a little. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa—harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21)—only. Because this is Kali-yuga, people are so fallen, so downtrodden, so rascal, cats and dog. It is very difficult. But this process—chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, giving them chance to hear it and take prasādam—that will cure. And that is easily accepted to anyone. It doesn't matter what he is. Anyone will accept. To chant and dance and take prasādam—no one will disagree. So this is the process. When they come to the temple . . . just like these boys. You are offering obeisances; they are also offering. But that will go to their credit, to become bhakta. This policy should be adopted. Not in the beginning. But in the beginning give them prasādam, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And try to sell some book. You pay something. That means he is giving some service, the hard-earned money. That will also go to his credit. And then, when he'll concerned that, "I have paid for it. Let me see what this nonsense has written. All right. Read." And that will also convince him. This is the way. He'll keep this body . . . book, and show some friend, so the infection will go on.

Cyavana: We can see in some of our boys in Kenya. Practically they have no education and no very little intelligence, but still, they're doing everything. They're falling down, they're offering all the prayers, they're taking prasādam, they're chanting. They're doing everything, even they don't have the intelligence to understand why. (pause)

Prabhupāda: You said that no chemical is missing.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No chemical difference.

Prabhupāda: But why it is dead?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The body is dead? Well, they haven't been able to determine that yet.

Prabhupāda: Then they are rascals. There is no argument, because you do not know.

Cyavana: They say "fate." They say: "There is fate."

Prabhupāda: Huh? Faith we have got, but you have no faith.

Cyavana: Not faith. Fate.

Prabhupāda: What is that fate?

Cyavana: Predetermined, predestined.

Prabhupāda: Who make it? Who made it, this predestination?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Higher controller.

Prahupada: Then you have to accept some higher authority, God.

Cyavana: But He is not a person. He's not a person.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Whatever it may be. That is another thing. That is another question. But you have to accept some superior authority. As soon as you accept fate, destiny, then you have to accept superior authority.

Cyavana: They also say: "nature." They say: "by nature."

Prabhupāda: Hmm . . . whatever it . . . whatever it may be, you have to accept some superior authority. That means you are not independent. You are under the control of the superior authority.

Harikeśa: Time. Time is . . .

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. You call by any name. That is another thing.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These bodies are a reaction, effect, isn't it? These bodies are an effect.

Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then death also must be some effect.

Prabhupāda: So who has made this law, cause and effect? Some way or other, you have to accept that you are not independent.

Harikeśa: Their arguments are so foolish, it's hard to think of them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore mūḍha, they have been described. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). They're being kicked, punished; still, he says: "Oh, I don't care for anybody. I kick on your, your face. Yes, I don't care for you." Like that. This is their argument.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā, Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27).

Cyavana: But because everything in this world appears to be disordered, it's difficult to accept . . .

Prabhupāda: Mmm? The world is not in disorder.

Cyavana: But it appears to be.

Brahmānanda: Man makes order.

Cyavana: Everything, everything appears.

Prabhupāda: Man makes order?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is . . . your idea is that he conceives of the order. But actually there's no order, but can . . .

Prabhupāda: When there is cyclone, man can stop?

Cyavana: For example, this beach is all disorder. There is so much rubbish there. There's no order to this world. So how can there be any higher authority . . .

Prabhupāda: So what you can do?

Cyavana: I cannot accept that there's a higher authority when everything is simply disorganized. These trees are broken, the beach . . .

Prabhupāda: It is organized.

Cyavana: But it, how can.

Prabhupāda: It is organized. For thousands of years the sea is there, the beach is there. So sea cannot come here. This is order.

Cyavana: But the line of the beach is all crooked and . . .

Prabhupāda: That is your imperfect vision. It is perfect.

Harikeśa: People think, "Straight and corners, that is very nice. If everything has corners . . ."

Prabhupāda: That is your concoction.

Cyavana: Like a building, straight.

Prabhupāda: Just like if you think that "Why keep to the left? Why not right?" You think like that, but that is ordered by the superior. You can think in your own way.

Cyavana: Because it appears that way to my senses, therefore I think that . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is authority. You can think like anything, but it will not be done according to your desire. It will be done by the authority's desire. That is authority. You cannot dictate the authority that, "You do like this." That is not authority. You think any way; that is your business. But authority will do in their own way.

Harikeśa: Actually, nobody cares about philosophy. Nobody follows philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Hm, no. He cares for death. That is the ultimate philosophy, that they have to die. Say: "I don't care for this order. I will not die." Then your disobedience is all right. But you have to die. You have to become old man. How you can disobey?

Cyavana: So if death is imminent, then I should simply try to enjoy myself as long as I can.

Prabhupāda: Enjoy. What is that enjoyment if you will going to die?

Harikeśa: It's so incredible how crazy everything is.

Brahmānanda: Well, at least before I die, I can get as much pleasure as I can.

Prabhupāda: Nobody can, if he's actually afraid of death. Suppose

Brahmānanda: Why we have to accept it?

Prabhupāda: If you are given a beautiful woman—"Enjoy, and as soon as you come out I will shoot you." (laughter) Will you enjoy?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a great example. That example would change the world.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That example would change the world.

Prabhupāda: That is the difference between a man of knowledge and a fool. Man of knowledge, that is that he knows he has to die. "But I don't wish to die. So what, what is the solution?" That is man of knowledge.

Harikeśa: Sometimes they say: "Well, why worry about death? It's gotta happen anyway, so why should we worry?"

Prabhupāda: But you . . . you . . . because you are rascal number one, you don't worry. But that is the psychology. This is the example.

Harikeśa: But I want to enjoy right now.

Prabhupāda: Suppose that you enjoy this woman for few minutes, then you will be shoot, shot down. Then will you be able to enjoy?

Brahmānanda: Actually they do that in . . . when some man is to be executed in the prison they give him one woman the night before as a special consolation.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They finish him off completely. They ruin him. (laughing)

Cyavana: But death is very far away from me. I don't have, I am only thirty years old. I don't have to worry about death.

Prabhupāda: What is the guarantee that you will live thirty-one years? What is the guarantee that you will live thirty-one years? There is no guarantee.

Cyavana: But everyone else around me appears to be having fun and enjoying.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. They can use this argument, though, Prabhupāda. I've heard it before, that "So God's placed us in this world. Okay, there's God, and He's placed us in this world, and He's created the world also, and He's made these things very, very enjoyable—sex life, and this and that. So why not enjoy if God has created it?"

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is foolishness. It is not enjoyable. That is . . . if a criminal says: "The prison house is very enjoyable," it is like that.

Cyavana: But all the travel brochures and the advertisements, they say it's nice here. All the advertising and travel brochures, they say it is nice.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Let him say, but prison house, is it nice? That is foolishness.

Cyavana: But everyone else says it's nice.

Prabhupāda: Everyone? I don't say.

Cyavana: You, your the only one who doesn't say, your the only one who says it is not nice.

Prabhupāda: I am the only intelligent person. (laughter) That's a fact.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: Mūḍho nābhijānāti.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa says, antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām (BG 7.23): "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary." So does this mean that these less intelligent people who are simply interested in temporary benefit . . . even they don't worship demigods per se, it could be anyone . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Demigods . . . yes. Just like one who is trying to get some good service, so they're worshiping this boss, that boss. That is also demigod. Because without flattering some boss he cannot get some good job; without flattering the voters he cannot get the ministership. So that is demigod worship. They have to flatter somebody. Why this Ram Gulab has gone to . . .? He has to flatter there. This is going on. The big bosses in the United Nation, they're demigods, supposed to be. He thinks, "If I flatter them, then I will be able to keep my position." But he does not think that this position will be lost after some years. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. He has forgotten his eternal life, Kṛṣṇa, and he's flattering these demigods. That's all. What he'll gain? He'll die. That's all. At the time of death, what these United Nation leaders will do?

Cyavana: But we can improve the standard for future generations, for our children. We can.

Prabhupāda: First of all you improve your own condition; then think of future generation. You are going to hell and thinking of future generation. You are going to die, and you are thinking of future generation. Who is your future generation? That is another foolishness. This is asuric civilization. Asuric civilization.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hope against hope. Asuric civilization.

Cyavana: Hope against hope.

Prabhupāda: Hope, that is also foolishness. Apart from future generation, you have got sons. So you are taking very great care. Does it mean that his life is guaranteed? So what you can do? You cannot do anything for your present generation, what to speak of future generation. You cannot do. Suppose your son is sick. As father, you have given first-class medicine, first-class physician. Does it guarantee that he will live? Then what can you do? Is it in your control that your son will live because you have given good physician, good medicine? Is it guarantee that your son will live? Then what can you do? You cannot do anything for your present generation, and you are thinking of future generation, which you do not know who is your future generation. At the present moment you know this is your generation, you cannot do anything, and you are thinking of future generation. How foolish you are.

Cyavana: Well, we may have to accept the laws of nature, but at least we can . . .

Prabhupāda: And therefore, what is the meaning of taking care of future generation or this generation?

Cyavana: At least we can make it comfortable in this world.

Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. You have already given good medicine, good physician. And why he's dying? You cannot do anything. That is your position. You may try to do, but that is futile. The ultimate is different.

Cyavana: So by giving him medicine, maybe I can give him a better chance . . .

Prabhupāda: "Maybe" can be, but it is not guaranteed. You cannot do anything.

Cyavana: But at least I should try.

Prabhupāda: Try. Foolishly you try whatever you like. That is another thing. But it is not under your control. You can try. That is your . . . of course, you must try as your dutiful father, but you should know that you cannot take any guarantee or do anything, good or bad. That you have already said: "The destiny." That is prominent. That is prominent, not you.

Cyavana: The tendency of the humans . . .

Prabhupāda: They all, you cou . . . you can do the best to train your child to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is in your power. That you can do. That is the best service, not anything else. That is not possible. If you become yourself Kṛṣṇa conscious, and if you try to make your son Kṛṣṇa conscious, that you can do. And that is the duty, real duty. Other things, you cannot do anything. That is destiny. And if you make him Kṛṣṇa conscious, then destiny can also be changed. This is the concession of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Destiny also can be changed. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). One who comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his karma is also changed.

Cyavana: Is that karma dovetailed?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Cyavana: Is that Karma dovetailed?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Cyavana: It's still there.

Prabhupāda: Still can be changed by bhakti. Just like one man is condemned to death. Nobody can change it, but the king can change it. Only by the mercy of king he can be saved, not otherwise. Even the judge who has punished him, he cannot do it. Whatever is ordered, there is order. He cannot change it. Similarly, if you become devotee, then your destiny can be changed. A devotee never is anxious to change his destiny. That is devotee's . . .

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like Mahārāja Parīkṣit.

Prabhupāda: Mmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like Mahārāja Parīkṣit.

Cyavana: But if his destiny takes him away from Kṛṣṇa, then he is not . . .

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's desire.

Cyavana: That is desire.

Prabhupāda: If Kṛṣṇa desires, he can do anything. So a devotee does not interfere with Kṛṣṇa's desire.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But we know that Kṛṣṇa desires everyone to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is . . . Kṛṣṇa says.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is His desire. Sarva ah, pa . . . mām ekāṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That is Kṛṣṇa's desire.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So Kṛṣṇa is not causing everyone to forget Him.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa is not causing everyone to forget Him.

Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa's desire is open to everyone. We don't accept it. That is our obstinacy. Kṛṣṇa says: "There is soul." We do not say: "No, there is no soul." This is our position. Kṛṣṇa says: "Within this body there is soul," and we don't accept. We'll argue. This is our position. He's giving direct instruction, "Yes, there is soul," but we don't accept. Disobedient.

Cyavana: But if Kṛṣṇa knows we're we will suffer in this material world, why is He let us go away from Him? Why doesn't He keep us there?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Cyavana: If Kṛṣṇa knows that we will suffer here in this material world if we come here, why does He let us go?

Prabhupāda: Why the thief goes to the prison house? He knows that, "If I go to the prison house, I will be put into distress."

Cyavana: But the government is not strong enough to force him not to go, not to steal.

Prabhupāda: Why government is not strong enough?

Cyavana: The government doesn't have the power to control everyone. But Kṛṣṇa can . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Even if he's strong enough, you disobey. The government has made so many things that you cannot steal—the iron chest—but still, you are clever enough that you do.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The independence is there. Sometimes people ask, Prabhupāda, that if the spiritual world is ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12), full of bliss, then how is it that, somehow or another, we've left that blissful situation and come into this hellish . . .

Prabhupāda: This argument we have talked many times. Everyone knows that out of prison house freedom is there. Why he goes to the prison house? Everyone knows it. Why does he go to the prison house?

Cyavana: But Krsna is the . . .

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not by choice. He is placed there.

Cyavana: Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller. If He wanted to check us from going there, He could check us from going into the prison, from offending.

Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa has given you independence. So you are . . . by mentality, you have to suffer. Suppose if a child wants to do something, play—if you check it, check it, then he will go mad. Just like Mother Yasoda was showing stick to Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa became so much afraid, he became immediately anxious: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has too much anxiety. He may be fall sick." So immediately throw away. So this is father-mother's affection.

Cyavana: So actually it is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He allows us to come here, free ourselves from . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He has given you little freedom. He doesn't want to take your . . .

Harikeśa: You gave two examples in Los Angeles about the master, big master, like president of DuPont walking his dog.

Prabhupāda: Mmm?

Harikeśa: The president of DuPont is walking his dog in Central Park. The dog makes him go this way and this way and this way. And you said we are just passing stool and urine in the material world, and Kṛṣṇa is just letting us run here and there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Anumantā. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, anumantā, upadraṣṭā.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Upadraṣṭānumantā ca (BG 13.23).

Cyavana: In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta in one of your purports you gave the example of Paramātmā as compared to when there is a circus in the village the government sends one inspector to watch over the activities. Then, when the circus goes, he is no longer there. Could you explain it?

Prabhupāda: Hmm. (pause)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, if Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of pleasure, then what does He need us for?

Prabhupāda: Mmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If Kṛṣṇa is all blissful, then what . . . we're so, it seems, incapable of pleasing Kṛṣṇa. He's so magnanimous. What does He need us for?

Prabhupāda: He does, He does not ask for Himself. For you. If you

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: 'cause Krsna's kind.

Prabhupāda: If you come to Kṛṣṇa and enjoy with Him, that is your good. He's self-sufficient. He doesn't require.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes, Prabhu when they see your, your Bhagavad-gītā, they say: "Oh, it is too big for me to read." They don't know that the purport . . . they've never read it.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that bring them, let them chant and dance and take prasādam. That, everyone will hear, agree.

Harikeśa: One who does that, he is preaching? One who arranges for chanting and dancing and taking prasādam, that is as good as preaching?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Śravaṇam, kīrtanam, arcanam—anything.

Harikeśa: These festival programs are very important.

Prabhupāda: (pause) You have to spend or waste gallons of blood before you can convert a person to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is so difficult task.

Cyavana: You have to spend . . .?

Prabhupāda: Gallons of blood, waste.

Cyavana: In what way?

Prabhupāda: Mmm?

Cyavana: In what way?

Prabhupāda: By talking with him, with the rascal and foolish.

Cyavana: No, yes, yes, you can just.

Prabhupāda: Your tax your brain and spoil your energy, blood.

Harikeśa: Spend so much food.

Cyavana: So we should do that.

Prabhupāda: Unless you are not a preacher, preach. You should be prepared.

Cyavana: We have to do it. They have to do it.

Prabhupāda: Then . . . yes. They cuts, sacrifices life.

Cyavana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What to speak of wasting blood. Wasting life . . . not sure who or what is spoken speaking . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: This is preacher. Then he is recognized by Kṛṣṇa, "He has done so much for Me."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Krsna will give more and more energy.

Prabhupāda: He's going to die for Kṛṣṇa, and therefore he is recognized. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). You become immediately very dear to Kṛṣṇa. Your business is how to become very intimate to Kṛṣṇa. That will be served by preaching.

Cyavana: Would you like to hear this verse?

na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu
kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ
bhavitā na ca me tasmād
anyaḥ priyataro bhuvi
(BG 18.69)

"There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he, nor will there ever be one more dear."

Prabhupāda: Who? Ya idaṁ para . . .

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes . . . I've had one person, he complained, "Why is there no purport for this verse, 'There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he, nor will there ever be one more dear'?"

Prabhupāda: No purport?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They have mentioned that there is no purport for this verse.

Prabhupāda: It is already explained. Anyone who is preaching . . .

Harikeśa: That verse is self-effulgent.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Harikeśa: You are the purport.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Simply people are trying to find out ways that they don't have to surrender to perfect knowledge. They can go on enjoying in the material world.

Prabhupāda: Wanted . . . (indistinct) . . . wanted . . . (indistinct)

Harikeśa: I think you should preach every breakfast. Your appetite is very good.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Harikeśa: Every breakfast you should preach. Then your appetite will be very good.

Prabhupāda: No, appetite or no appetite, I preach. (laughter) I do not preach for increasing appetite.

Devotee (2): Do you want this jar?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. What is that?

Harikeśa: Lavaṇa-bhāskara?

Brahmānanda: This is Lavaṇa-bhāskara (Āyur-vedic medicine for increasing appetite).

Prabhupāda: Lavaṇa-bhāskara it is? No. Yes bhāskara. Hmm yes. Yesterday night what did I take?

Harikeśa: At night you're supposed to take Tripolin, no?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: At night Prabhupāda takes Tripolin. After meals he takes this Bhāskara-lavaṇa.

Prahupada: But . . .

Brahmānanda: At night you took this one?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: (indistinct) . . . no, at night he's supposed to take Tripolin.

Prabhupāda: You follow.

Harikeśa: . . . (indistinct) (end)