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760819 - Conversation A - Hyderabad

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760819R1-HYDERABAD - August 19, 1976 - 123:56 Minutes

(Conversation About Mayapura Construction)

Gargamuni: . . . to keep it going we took a minimum amount of ten thousand a month. We were getting ten thousand a month. But to finish the building we require more, more per month, because ten thousand is just the most minimum amount just to keep it going.

Prabhupāda: So you are collecting?

Gargamuni: Yes, but that is going for maintenance. I give twenty thousand a month now.

Prabhupāda: Maintenance, twenty thousand?

Gargamuni: Well, that includes agriculture, the gurukula—everything. It includes everything.

Jayapatākā: Actual maintenance, about eight or ten thousand. Other things, landscaping and other things . . .

Gargamuni: Landscaping . . . we built you a very wonderful park, very nice park. We've also put a walkway around the ghāṭa with stairs.

Prabhupāda: Now, what is the position of our big project?

Jayapatākā: That's what I was going to tell you first. So what happened was that the application we had given to the Chief Secretary and the Board of Revenue, that had gone from them to Mr. Choudhuri, who in turn had sent it on to the Commissioner. The Commissioner sent to District Magistrate. The Commissioner sent to the District Magistrate. So District Magistrate, he gave a favorable reply.

Prabhupāda: He has given?

Jayapatākā: Favorable reply. He said that, "This is a good project. It will help the district." He only said that they should maybe get 300 acres instead of 350, or like that. He reduced something. Then it went back again to the Commissioner, who was a Christian. He's the one I mentioned. He wrote bad report. Then when Choudhuri got it, he wrote a very good report. He wrote a very good report. He said that there's no question of Hindu or Muslim. Just like in Bangkok they have that one big Viṣṇu Temple. That is a . . . or the Taj Mahal. This is no longer any type of religious . . . this is for all mankind. Similarly, this Māyāpur will be a monument for the whole mankind.

Prabhupāda: For the whole world.

Jayapatākā: For the whole world. So in this way he gave a very good, very good statement. Then that went to the Chief Secretary again, who had to give it to the Chief Minister. So the Chief Minister, he does not have a good opinion. He did not have a good opinion of our Society.

Prabhupāda: Who is the Chief Minister?

Jayapatākā: Siddhanta Shankaraya.

Prabhupāda: He is very expert man.

Jayapatākā: He's a very expert . . . he's one of their chief politicians from India. He used to be Education Minister of Indira Gandhi. He's one of her right-hand men.

Gargamuni: Very important for Bengal. Bengal is the most important state, and he has very prominent position to the Prime Minister as advisor.

Jayapatākā: So at that time, I couldn't write him a letter. He had written that . . . something which made Mr. Choudhuri very angry. He wrote something which made Mr. Choudhuri very angry. Made also the Chief Secretary angry. He wrote . . .

Gargamuni: No, who wrote?

Jayapatākā: The Chief Minister wrote. He said, "Because of the impassioned . . ." He said: "I would have refused this application except for the impassioned appeal of one of my senior officers, namely Mr. Choudhuri. They are asking for three hundred acres of land, but the East India Company, they asked only twenty acres of land, and they have conquered the whole of India." (loud kīrtana in background)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayapatākā: "East India Company, they have asked only twenty acres of land, but they have conquered the whole of India."

Gargamuni: "They ruled India for two hundred years."

Jayapatākā: Oh. "Ruled India for two hundred years."

Prabhupāda: Who said? Chief Minister?

Gargamuni: The Chief Minister wrote that the East India Company purchased twenty acres of land and ruled India for two hundred years. That was his reply to our application.

Prabhupāda: Chief Minister said?

Gargamuni: Yes. They're afraid that by taking this, we will rule India.

Jayapatākā: Anyway, that's a very frivolous statement. That was a frivolous statement.

Prabhupāda: No, that, ruling over India, they politically ruled.

Jayapatākā: But we're not politicians.

Prabhupāda: Even if we are rule, we shall rule spiritually. We have nothing to do with politics.

Jayapatākā: That's the point. That's why even the Chief Secretary, he became . . .

Gargamuni: They didn't take it seriously. The Chief Secretary and Mr. Choudhuri did not take that very seriously, that comment.

Jayapatākā: It didn't end there.

Gargamuni: It's a frivolous comment.

Jayapatākā: It's progressed. That's one month ago. Since then it's progressed. Then he said, "Let there be more inquiry on the nature of the Society and its source of funds, etc . . ." In the meantime, many people had come and inquired about our Society—CID, CI . . .

Gargamuni: Also the industrial . . . one industrial from the . . . they want to know how we will arrange for so many work for so many people. I met them there. They want to know, "How will you get everyone to work?" They sent . . . many, from many different governmental departments, came, inquiring, "How you will do this?" And they all went away satisfied. We showed them the handloom; we showed them the gośālā, we showed them the children. Even Tarun Kanti Ghosh, he came, and we lined up fifty children, and they read the Gītār Gān, and he almost started crying. He liked it so much. He said: "Oh, you have done so nicely with the children." So they were impressed with the work.

Jayapatākā: So at that time Mr. Choudhuri, he was put down. But he said: "I have not yet lost hope." He said, but he was put down a bit. That night personally talked to the Minister of Nadia, Anandamoy Visvas, who I personally met last year. And he was telling him that for Nadia he should sponsor this. Even the negative political issue with the Chief Minister, he should push it through. In the meantime, I wrote an application to Tarun Kanti Ghosh, who up to now we hadn't asked. Because it had already passed all the preliminaries. And I went and spoke to him. I told him that, "It has already passed all the government stages. Now simply the Chief Minister has to be convinced." He said: "No, no. You are of good integrity. There is no doubt about ISKCON. I will immediately tell him." He called up the Chief Secretary. The Chief Minister was out then. Later on he talked to Chief Minister. The next time I saw Mr. Choudhuri . . . before that, he told me . . . that's when he told me that, "Maybe Prabhupāda should see the Chief Minister." Now he said it's not necessary. He liked your reply to them. After that, I saw Mr. Tarun Kanti Ghosh. Then I saw Choudhuri again a week later. At that time he said: "Now everything is changed." He said: "Now the Chief Minister, that problem is solved." He has written that, "Let Mr. Choudhuri take the decision. Let him take the decision. But I cannot simply take the decision. They'll say I am biased. I must work in the ordinary ways of the government. But there is no trouble now. You have waited so long. You wait another thirty or sixty days." He said: "Wait another sixty days, and then you'll get it."

Prabhupāda: When he wrote? When he wrote this?

Jayapatākā: He spoke to me just two weeks ago. Two weeks ago. Then, last week, again I saw him just before Janmāṣṭamī. I asked him . . . then I gave him invitation to Janmāṣṭamī. At that time he told me that . . . after was this bad publicity. He told me, "Now this bad publicity, I think it has given us some benefit."

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, could you give darśana over here later? They've all been waiting for your darśana.

Gargamuni: Hey, wait a minute. We're talking about Māyāpur. We're talking about Māyāpur. (indistinct conversation)

Prabhupāda: Is there . . .? Is there necessity?

Gargamuni: There's no necessary.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. But we had you down on schedule for a lecture. So I said that you're not lecturing, but they just wanted to have a look at you. Later we can have . . .

Prabhupāda: Tomorrow I shall.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Tomorrow. Okay.

Prabhupāda: Tomorrow I shall lecture.

Gargamuni: Go ahead.

Jayapatākā: Now, just a few days ago, when I invited him for Janmāṣṭamī, then I asked him what the . . . he told me at that time, he said: "Now . . ." He had recently received a phone call from the Chief Secretary. "You see? Now your favorite project is going to be spoiled." Then he went over to see the Chief Secretary. He showed him an article from the Rāja-Sabhā, how the member of Parliament had given this challenge that, "Are these people CIA or this or that?" Then Mr. Choudhuri said: "Sir, I am not afraid." He said: "Why not?" "Because I have you, don't I?" Then the Chief said: "Yes. You have won me over. I believe in this project." Then he said that now the Chief Minister has agreed that the project be sanctioned. But he said that, "I don't want to take the full brunt of the decision. Let the Nadia District Planning Committee take the decision."

Prabhupāda: Nadia?

Jayapatākā: District Planning Committee. So the head of the Nadia District Planning Committee is that minister, Anandamoy Visvas. So I went to him, and I gave him an invitation for the Janmāṣṭamī. When I saw him, then . . . you gave me that letter. So I showed him that letter where you have said that, "Every day we're selling sixty thousand dollars' of books, and I thank you for helping me." I said: "Sir, we are simply doing Prabhupāda's order. This is not our work. It is not a foreign work. It is his work; we are simply doing it. He is selling so many books that he wants to invest some of the money to develop Mahāprabhu's birth site. That is all. He has got the money. Why he should not invest it?" He said: "I am going to have a meeting of the committee next week, and I'm going to push your project through. We're going to pass it." That is the last word I heard. So it looks that everything is very good right now . . . but we have to keep our Society very pure, because they're investigating us very strong. All the time they're having people watching us.

Gargamuni: There is now in Māyāpur . . . the talk is, there's some special advisors to the Prime Minister are in Māyāpur now investigating to make sure.

Jayapatākā: Some of the local people that were working with me, getting petitions, they came and told me that some people from Delhi or outside were inquiring about us, about Bhavānanda Goswami, about Jayapatākā, about this project, about how the devotees are dealing with the public, whether we are doing any anti-Indian work. All sorts of questions they are asking. So it's very important that we keep very up-and-up right now. All the time. But otherwise the government, they are happy with our work. And so far, Mr. Choudhuri said, other people have indicated that they have found no bad report about our Society, although they are looking so hard. Therefore they are passing.

Gargamuni: The State government is very favorable. But the doubt, of course, is coming from the central government because they don't know us. But the state government, they are very favorable. Everyone we've met within the State, they like us very much. They like the Society, they like your work, and, of course, they like your books.

Jayapatākā: The local police intelligence officer in Krishnagar, when I went to see him, he told me, Ami tomake bharatiya nagarik kore dicchi. Ami kore dicchi. (I am making you an Indian citizen. I am making you.) Like that, he told me. "Definitely I make you an Indian citizen." So they are favorable. I don't know how much they can do, but locally they are favorable.

Gargamuni: Now on the weekend we have tours of the building. Many groups of people come. Fifty in a group sometimes, to come and visit.

Prabhupāda: Tourists.

Gargamuni: Yes, tourists, and we take them on tour of the building. That's Subhaga. He takes them on tour and he gives some preaching. So many people are coming.

Prabhupāda: Subhaga is in charge of that?

Gargamuni: Yes, he does.

Jayapatākā: Others are there also. One new boy is very good. He's . . .

Gargamuni: Kiśora.

Jayapatākā: Kiśora dāsa. He's also translating. He's a little more strong than Subhaga, although new. Very good boy, very humble. He's from a good family also.

Prabhupāda: What is the flood situation?

Jayapatākā: Flood situation . . .

Gargamuni: Very mild monsoon this year. Almost drought. Almost. Very mild. Very little rain.

Prabhupāda: Rain is not very strong.

Gargamuni: No. The monsoon is not strong.

Jayapatākā: Our aus (a type of rice) crop has been hampered because of lack of rain and early monsoon. Only in the past week there's been a little rain. Otherwise, before, there was very little rain. Not fully drought . . .

Gargamuni: But less rain than previous years.

Jayapatākā: Everything is very green and nice, but so far as agriculture is concerned . . .

Prabhupāda: It requires more rain.

Jayapatākā: It requires more rain and early tide. Right now the river is full, but it is not flooding. It is full. See, Mr. Choudhuri, he was interested. At that time when the Chief Minister wrote that, then he wrote this, that "If you were to see the Chief Minister, then this type of letter could be submitted and he would definitely see you," although it is not necessary to see him.

Prabhupāda: Do you think it is?

Jayapatākā: No, it's not necessary to personally see him. You might write . . . when you come to Māyāpur we'll write him invitation that he can come and see and visit you there. That was better. Mr. Choudhuri said that, "Your Guru Mahārāja, he has also got the Vaiṣṇava pride not to see the politicians." He said: "This is a good stand. I respect this very much." Actually he mentioned once to Abhirāma confidentially that, "If this project comes through, then you'll be requiring some liaison officer, because there will be so many government things. At that time I can work for you as your permanent advisor and go to Delhi and here and there and do all the work." I think he wants a job.

Prabhupāda: I thought that Mr. Choudhuri would do everything, but that is not the position.

Jayapatākā: Almost he is doing everything. Actually he's trying to say that he did everything. But I think that when we saw Tarun Kanti Ghosh, that cleared up . . . that matter with Chief Minister, that cleared that up. As far as the other lower secretary men are . . . Mr. Choudhuri did everything. The Chief Minister doubt, I think Tarun helped clear that up. That's the only thing that he couldn't change the mind of is the Chief Minister. Otherwise he did everything else, almost, you can say.

Gargamuni: He came on the last ekādaśī. Just last ekādaśī, what, ten days ago? Seven days ago he came for the ekādaśī to Māyāpur just to see.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Gargamuni: Tarun Kanti Ghosh. He took prasādam, he took the ekādaśī, and he liked it very much.

Jayapatākā: I just saw him also just before Janmāṣṭamī, and he was still very favorable then. We talked for about an hour and a half. He introduced me to all the MLAs of the twenty-four paraganās.

Prabhupāda: Tarun Kanti?

Jayapatākā: When I go preaching, then I go, and the government MLA and Congress people, they also help me. They arrange sometimes places for me to stay and big program. And they protect that no people cause us any disturbances. Although we don't . . .

Prabhupāda: What about our Godbrothers?

Jayapatākā: The Godbrothers . . .

Prabhupāda: They are also opposing?

Jayapatākā: Subhaga made a very bad . . . Bhavānanda sent him over to invite Śrīdhara Swami for Janmāṣṭamī, as a show of respect. When he went there, and Śrīdhara Swami . . . he's not so clever boy. So Śrīdhara Swami asked him that, "Oh, what about your land acquisition?" What does he know about land acquisition? We never discussed anything with him. He can only know by hearsay or any . . . so then Subhaga said: "Oh, it's in the hands of the Chief Minister," for which I reprimanded him. He should have denied any knowledge of the matter at all. "Why you have given any information?" But they are very interested in these things, and maybe they are still trying to stop it, but I don't think they have the power.

Prabhupāda: They have no power.

Jayapatākā: They are the ones who have raised up that first petition, that Surendra dāsa, I think, and others. They are behind that. They themselves were in the market trying to get petition against, but no one would sign for them. We made a little of political . . . because in Māyāpur now we have got seventy percent of the people are . . .

Prabhupāda: In our favor.

Jayapatākā: In our favor strongly. And only a minority are actively opposed, one percent even. And thirty per cent are in doubt. So, so much so that even I saw recently the MLA who was previously against us. And when I saw him I invited him for Janmāṣṭamī, and he said what about our program for a bridge? I said: "Oh, yes, I discussed with Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he suggested having a floating bridge to Navadvīpa. That will be very short, very easily done, with least expense." He said: "Anyway, next time you come to Navadvīpa you can discuss with me. I am ready to help you in all ways." So he has turned his mind around.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Jayapatākā: The MLA, the local Member of Legislative Assembly. He was previously a little against us. But because our whole . . . (indistinct) . . . is for us, if he doesn't cooperate he won't get their vote, because they want the development in their area. Also the . . . he is changing a little. Everyone is saying that our Society is actually simply doing sincere work.

Prabhupāda: As they are doing.

Jayapatākā: This food distribution has been very important.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Jayapatākā: Now the price of rice has gone up by about eighty paisa. From two rupees to two-eighty. So the poor class of people, they are in a very bad situation. So now our attendance has gone up from twelve hundred to two thousand on that Saturday and Sunday, each day. So we have two shifts. So many people are coming that they come from ten o'clock in the morning and wait, because otherwise they can't get a boat in time to cross the river. So then we were very surprised to read in a recent newsletter from LA that, "They're going to restart the food relief." But we never knew it stopped. We never knew that they had stopped the food relief. We saw then that he said, "They're going to restart." But we never stopped, and we were very surprised to see that. And now they say . . .

Prabhupāda: Who said?

Jayapatākā: Rāmeśvara.

Gargamuni: To maintain this food relief from the centers only requires what? Fifteen hundred dollars a month.

Jayapatākā: Something like that, yes.

Gargamuni: About fifteen hundred dollars a month. So little amount, and so much service is done.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: So I know Tamāla, he was giving one thousand, but he has stopped now. He was giving one thousand a month. And now he has stopped.

Jayapatākā: Rāmeśvara, you wrote him a letter that, "Jayapatākā Swami should be sent money for ISKCON Food Relief." And he told me that, "I am sending you. I have four thousand dollars," which he sent. Of that we had already been 36,000 rupees in debt because we hadn't received money for six months. But he wrote in a newsletter to the temples that, "Prabhupāda has wrote me to send money to Jayapatākā Swami; and now we're going to start again ISKCON Food Relief." But that was making it appear that we had stopped. But actually we had never stopped.

Prabhupāda: Rāmeśvara. He did not know?

Jayapatākā: Rāmeśvara had stopped collecting from the temples. But we had never stopped . . .

Prabhupāda: Anyway, he'll collect. That's all.

Jayapatākā: So anyway, your program everyone is appreciating. When the newspapermen came out, at that time the . . . (indistinct) . . . development officer he came there, and when the newspapermen were there he sat down with all the poor people, and he took also, and said: "This is very good. This is our national service." And they photographed.

Prabhupāda: "National service"?

Jayapatākā: Yes, he mentioned.

Gargamuni: Still, though, because of these articles, it has been a little bit hard to secure money from people now, because the people who are giving us money, they are under investigation also, the rich people. So when they see we are under investigation, oh, then they get afraid. They don't want to give.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Gargamuni: Because we're under investigation and they're also being investigated, so they don't want to endanger . . . the government is every day raiding the houses of the rich people.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, what is the investigation?

Jayapatākā: They are being investigated for income tax.

Gargamuni: For income tax. The government is making it so that no one can give any donation. They don't want any more donation. They want everything to come to the government. So it's not easy to get money locally. We are getting enough to do maintenance, but it is not like it was, say, two or three years ago, when you could get 25,000, 15,000, especially in Calcutta, where the income tax, every day they are raiding the houses.

Jayapatākā: Even if people give, a life . . . patron member, 2,222, if they are not so big, they want to give in installment, and even though they'll give at one time with postdated . . . they want different receipt, because if they give one lump sum, then it makes it seem that like they are very rich. Although they'll give you at one time, they want small, small receipt so that the income tax won't think, "Oh, they are giving so much donation? They must be very rich. They must have hidden wealth which we can capture from them by investigation." So in this way they are very much pressurized. Sometimes they prefer to give money without receipt.

Prabhupāda: Soon on the whole, our program is going on.

Gargamuni: Oh, yes. No, it's going on more. The book distribution is going on more. More people are joining. There's no hindrance.

Prabhupāda: That I want.

Jayapatākā: These are simply minor obstacles.

Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Pālikā was just wondering if you wanted anything tonight.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If she can . . . she can make little vegetable—potato, tomato.

Hari-śauri: Purīs?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Or one paraṭā. One paraṭā.

Hari-śauri: Just potatoes and tomato?

Prabhupāda: Yes, tomato, potato, one vegetable.

Gargamuni: Prabhupāda's house. Your house. You have not decided where you want to put your house.

Prabhupāda: I wanted that if the major project is done, then we can select. What do you think?

Jayapatākā: Let the big land be acquired and pick the best place. Let the whole land be acquired and then pick the best place. You wanted to wait for the whole land to be acquired, and then pick the best place.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And not I want, but that you all see, which is the best place.

Jayapatākā: For the most privacy.

Prabhupāda: For the time being, that place is very nice, that pond. What is there?

Gargamuni: It's become congested there now.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: We have 125 people now.

Jayapatākā: 138.

Gargamuni: 138 people now. 138 people are living there. Women, children . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: There's fifty children now. So that place is now . . . the front has become somewhat congested . . .

Prabhupāda: Congested.

Gargamuni: . . . with noise and children.

Prabhupāda: What about the painting?

Gargamuni: Painting is going on. Oh, yes.

Jayapatākā: They've done about sixteen or seventeen, I think.

Prabhupāda: Our men?

Gargamuni: Yes, yes.

Jayapatākā: Two men. Ānakadundubhi and . . . What's his name?

Gargamuni: Pāṇḍu.

Jayapatākā: (indistinct) . . . I went to Haridaspur as soon as I received your letter because Bahusvarūpa was there, making arrangement for the Janmāṣṭamī festival. So I spoke to all those people for two days, Thursday and Friday. And the land is in the name of the zamindar, Mr . . . Ghosh family. There's fourteen members who have to sign. So in Haridaspur nine members are living, and they are all agreed for signing. And they say the other five members live in Calcutta. Once they sign the deed, they'll also sign. There's no doubt, because that's not even in their possession. That's in the public's possession. And all the public, Anchal-pradhan and all the other leaders of that village, they are also all eager to have us start. I think that we can also raise some money in the neighborhood. There's some relatively rich people. So that . . . I was trying to register that before I came here, but because Monday is . . . that zamindar has one haṭṭa. And that's . . . his haṭṭa day is Monday, so he was busy. And Tuesday was Janmāṣṭamī by government of West Bengal, and Wednesday was our Janmāṣṭamī and Haridaspur Janmāṣṭamī, and I came here today, Thursday, so we couldn't do it beforehand. But as soon as I go back, I can register that. And . . . but someone should immediately come, Mūrti or Saurabha or someone, and see that land.

Prabhupāda: No, no, we have to . . . yes. We have to see, make plans.

Jayapatākā: Because actually just by giving the site plan you can't make a plan, because that's a high area, and it goes down to the river. So from our land to the river, that is also under our use. That is kashjami. That is no-man's land. But that we can also use, and that has to be some strengthening so that when the river . . . and rain cannot wear away the side. So these details they should come and see, and then they could make a proper plan, I think. Without seeing, they can't make. 'Cause it's a very small area, it should be very well planned. And the local people there, they are very innocent people. They don't seem to have any type of enmity or envy at all. They all come and chant and see. Although they don't strictly follow the rules, naturally—they eat fish and other things and smoke—but they seem to be simple people. If someone would work with him, I think he could make the whole village gradually Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: But who that person is right now to work, that we have to train up some of our men. Because right now . . .

Prabhupāda: He can do, Svarūpa. He can take training, and he can do. And then, gradually, others will join.

Jayapatākā: I think all the children, they could become brahmacārīs. If the parents would be agreeable, they could become brahmacārīs and attend morning some class, then go to school. In this way, if the whole village could be made Kṛṣṇa conscious at least by chanting and attending, chanting . . .

Prabhupāda: Chanting is the main thing. Chanting and distributing prasādam.

Jayapatākā: If we get prasādam, then . . . and I think that they all contribute some grain. They are very poor agricultural people, but there's no theft there. I asked. There's one man who has three acres. Three bighās of land he's giving. So they just grow their rice there and . . .

Prabhupāda: You can ask that instead of making paraṭā, a light khicuṛi in the morning. That is . . .

Hari-śauri: Instead of that sabjī and everything.

Prabhupāda: No, sabjī can make.

Jayapatākā: Khicuṛi instead of paraṭā, as she made in the morning.

Prabhupāda: So khicuṛi will be easy, light.

Hari-śauri: You want some khicuṛi and the potato?

Prabhupāda: Put in the khicuṛi and tomato. Like in the morning.

Hari-śauri: Yes. Do you want anything like purī or anything to eat with it?

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: Just khicuṛi with the vegetable.

Prabhupāda: That will be easily digested.

Jayapatākā: Digestion is not good now.

Gargamuni: This will help digestion.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: This medicine.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: There is ginger, I think.

Prabhupāda: No. This is ajwain. My only concern is about the Immigration Department. They are gagging you, "Now you finished . . . go out. Go away, go out . . ." So they are making so big, big arrangement. If my foreign disciples are forced to go away, then what is the happen? That is . . .

Gargamuni: Well, as far as myself . . . of course, I was supposed to leave yesterday. But there is very easy process. You can come in and out and stay six months.

Prabhupāda: So that, make plans. That will . . . otherwise we are making so big, big, big plan. Who will manage?

Jayapatākā: For that matter, we can get . . . even the American citizen, they can get outside . . . by various means you can get Canadian or English passports.

Gargamuni: But even then, we can go to Lahore, get visa three months, come in, but you can stay six months. Then go out again, get another visa, come in and out. There is no problem. We have already done that with some of the other men.

Prabhupāda: Make . . . find out such means. Otherwise . . . Alexander the Great, having so many kingdom, and as soon as he goes away, it is finished.

Jayapatākā: Also, if you would write . . . I think if you wrote a letter to Brahmānanda Reddy and that Mr. Mehta, the Deputy Assistant or whatever, minister, regarding these questions coming in the Rāja-sabhā about this Māyāpur and Vṛndāvana, "Actually these two centers are my . . . I am founder-ācārya of these centers, and the people working there are not independent of me. I have asked them to come for assisting me." Then, if a letter like that is written to them, and send me one copy, that will help immigration also, I think.

Gargamuni: Also another investigation, we're always asked, "Where is your headquarters?"

Jayapatākā: And then "Our headquarters is in India."

Gargamuni: It must be always stated, "Our headquarters are India." If we say "foreign," that means we are controlled by foreign. We must publish everywhere that our head . . .

Prabhupāda: No, we have mentioned headquarters Bombay?

Jayapatākā: We just said offices.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: They think that Los Angeles is our headquarters.

Prabhupāda: That is for America.

Gargamuni: We explain like that.

Prabhupāda: But real headquarter here.

Gargamuni: I think if one letter is given that, "We are purely Indian, that I am the ācārya, and they are simply helping me, they are not . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the fact.

Jayapatākā: Actual facts is . . . that would help, if such a letter was given. Then on the basis of that, we can also go and preach or talk, or we can show that to the local people, that "This is . . ." Because they keep thinking that we are coming on our own. Because you are outside traveling, they see us only, and they think we are independent.

Prabhupāda: No, in every letter heading there is my name, "Ācārya, Founder-ācārya."

Jayapatākā: That is their stupidity. But if some . . . that one direct letter, short letter, then if we have a copy I'll show that to the CID there, that "This, Prabhupāda has written to the Minister of Home. This is in answer to your question."

Prabhupāda: Then take that copy.

Jayapatākā: I'll make one draft.

Prabhupāda: No, I have written already letter?

Jayapatākā: You've written already letter?

Prabhupāda: To the Home Minister?

Jayapatākā: I didn't get. Has he written a letter to the Home Minister?

Prabhupāda: No, Home Minister has given one letter.

Gargamuni: I have that letter.

Jayapatākā: You have one. Oh. Also, all over Bengal people are appreciating. I went . . . when we go preaching in the small towns . . .

Prabhupāda: (aside) Wait, I am coming. Among the . . . amongst these . . . not only for India, but the whole world. You are doing nice work to push this movement. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura wanted Indians, Americans. They can . . . Prabhupāda also. Now make plans how to . . . we are not concerned only with India. All over the world. Make plan. Think over. Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence.

Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda would come to Māyāpur.

Jayapatākā: When is your program for coming to Māyāpur? All the devotees are offering their obeisances to you. Bhavānanda Goswami, he is following very strictly the cāturmāsya this year. He doesn't eat anything before sunrise.

Gargamuni: The weather there is very nice, because the monsoon is mild. It is very nice, cool weather.

Prabhupāda: I have got a bad impression, Bengal during rainy season.

Gargamuni: Yes, right.

Prabhupāda: Is it not?

Gargamuni: This year, for the first two months it was . . .

Prabhupāda: No, it was not rainy season. This season. Otherwise, any season in Bengal, not are very good.

Hari-śauri: Insect season.

Prabhupāda: Not only insect. There are . . . insects are there?

Gargamuni: There's no insects now.

Jayapatākā: Rainy season no insects.

Hari-śauri: No, after rainy season.

Jayapatākā: After rainy season.

Prabhupāda: After rainy season. And insect is not so bad. Indigestion.

Jayapatākā: Indigestion.

Prabhupāda: That is the . . .

Gargamuni: What part of India is good during rainy season? Is there any part of India that's good during rainy season?

Hari-śauri: Vṛndāvana's not too bad.

Prabhupāda: I think Vṛndāvana. Is it not?

Hari-śauri: I was there last year.

Jayapatākā: I only know Bengal. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: You are now Bengali.

Jayapatākā: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: And they are not giving citizenship?

Jayapatākā: Myself? What happened was I applied last September. So now it's nearly one year. So they had sent my application from Māyāpur to Calcutta, Writer's Building. Again back. Again Writer's Building, then to Delhi. Then Delhi sent again back. I went, and I asked the secretary, and then I found out that they had sent again back from Delhi, again back to Māyāpur, and then re-investigated me. At that time they brought in some local people, and one investigator, he said that, "This Jayapatākā Swami, we have heard that he is a very bad person. He beats the people." They said: "No, we never heard such thing." "No, no. We have heard that he is very bad." In this way, by negative they are testing. They came and told me that for two hours police is drilling three different people from Navadvīpa and from Māyāpur. In this way no one said a bad . . .

Prabhupāda: No, if you are a famous man, then they'll do. That is very good.

Gargamuni: Him and Bhavānanda.

Jayapatākā: Now Bhavānanda is more famous.

Prabhupāda: He is notorious.

Jayapatākā: But now he is in the papers.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) He . . . you are famous; he is notorious. It is very difficult to deal with these nonsense. They are devotees, and neither notorious nor famous. Our Godbrothers, they do not like Bhavānanda. Eh?

Jayapatākā: No, they don't like me anymore either.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā? What is your fault?

Jayapatākā: They always thought, because I am not so outspoken, that "Jayapatākā, we can get him to do as we like." But ultimately I don't do anything for them either, so now they don't like me either. Bhavānanda openly was against, and I was passive. I didn't say anything. But when they came to me I also . . . actually, I am afraid. Mādhava Mahārāja, he invited me to attend his program, some festival day . . .

Prabhupāda: Where?

Jayapatākā: At his Maṭha.

Prabhupāda: Ten days? Ten days.

Jayapatākā: No, it was a three-day program. He invited us for one day. But I was afraid to go. He might even poison me. But they personally went . . .

Prabhupāda: That is their business, especially Mādhava Mahārāja.

Jayapatākā: If not materially by poison, then spiritually by ear. One way or other, they have to give poison. So I didn't even want to go. I didn't go, either.

Prabhupāda: Śrīdhara Mahārāja is also within the group?

Jayapatākā: Of course, all those details we don't know. By the way, Tīrtha Mahārāja—very sick.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Gargamuni: Oxygen.

Jayapatākā: He can't breath. He is on a bed with oxygen. Life and death any moment. Injection, oxygen, barely staying alive. One day better, one day worse. Now they say better; then again they say worse. In this way his life is going on. But they say that his brother, Samvidananda, a barrister . . . (break) . . . and they've done a great to improve that. Now everyone is improved. Everyone is improved because of their example. That is what we simply need, are people . . . I saw the program so nicely, if people would simply come and work sincerely, they'll make spiritual advancement. They'll chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very quickly they'll become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So now we're seeing that we're being . . . we're demanding that sincere people come.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it may not be the association of lazy people, free hotel. No.

Jayapatākā: Bhavānanda, he's strict on that.

Gargamuni: He's very strict. Without working, no one can eat.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only work, but attending the program. That is essential.

Jayapatākā: They all attend maṅgala-ārati, evening ārati. They should also attend morning class.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. Work is partial. These things are essential.

Jayapatākā: Maṅgala-ārati and morning class.

Gargamuni: But some of these men are workers. They're not . . .

Prabhupāda: No, our cloth necessities are supplied by ourselves? The cloth?

Jayapatākā: The difficulty is right now we have twenty thousand rupees' worth of cloth in stock. That is all profit. We only are three thousand rupees in debt. But we have all the cloth, we have no customers.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Gargamuni: There's no customers. We have a huge stock . . .

Prabhupāda: You send immediately to America. They will pay.

Gargamuni: We sent a newsletter to get people to buy cloth the cloth, because we have a huge stock of it.

Prabhupāda: Now, you ask Bhagavān. He is very clever. He's expert.

Jayapatākā: We are worried that now we're getting good men to join, they're doing good work, then how . . .

Prabhupāda: I think if you prepare according to the order of our foreign centers, then you won't be . . . they will all give. You can make fine cloth?

Jayapatākā: We can make up to eighty count. Eighty count we can make now.

Prabhupāda: They are purchasing cloth, shirt and everything.

Jayapatākā: They're saying . . . sometimes they say that, "The cloth you make is not what we like." But I tell them we can make any cloth. You give us sample. You tell us. We'll make to your specification." They don't . . .

Prabhupāda: Even . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, Jayatīrtha, Bhagavān dāsa, they'll help.

Jayapatākā: The GBCs can write a letter, and I'll sign it, you and Gopāla Kṛṣṇa.

Gargamuni: All right, I'll write a letter. Let's not bother Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: How is that, twenty thousand stock is there? You can send it. In India there is no customer?

Gargamuni: No, because it's made according to European length. Big size.

Jayapatākā: Up to now we've been making according to the devotees' specification. To make for Indian we have to make a different type. We can also make Indian sārī and other thing. They'll be cheaper one. But previously we were making because we thought that all the foreign branches . . .

Prabhupāda: So whatever . . . now you can make Indian style. You keep great stock.

Jayapatākā: Well, we are hearing that they are buying the cloth elsewhere.

Gargamuni: All right. Come on.

Jayapatākā: All right.

Prabhupāda: Eh? They are buying elsewhere?

Gargamuni: Yes. They are buying sometimes from other. (to Jayapatākā) All right. Let's go and chant. We'll come back tomorrow.

Jayapatākā: Other thing we can discuss tomorrow. (break)

Gargamuni: . . . Birla

Prabhupāda: It is difficult to go there. It is difficult to go there.

Gargamuni: Yes. And here there is more devotion.

Prabhupāda: Here they are devotees.

Jayapatākā: We made this for distributing, and the public, they take and worship in their home, purchase it.

Gargamuni: (to Jayapatākā) Let's go.

Prabhupāda: They purchase?

Gargamuni: Yes.

Jayapatākā: Yes. This is Indian printing.

Prabhupāda: Calcutta?

Gargamuni: Yes. (break)

Prabhupāda: So, so far the building is concerned, that is already settled up.

Jayapatākā: Yes, that's all settled.

Prabhupāda: Then, what other?

Jayapatākā: Well, there were some other lighter matters. When I was traveling in my preaching, then last time in Māyāpur, when that Haridaspur, when they offered, you mentioned to me that you liked that we develop these . . . all these holy spots. So just as a matter of convenience, whenever I was near any holy spot that you mentioned in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, I would go and just visit the place. So in my tour, one place I went to was very nice, and that sevaite, he spontaneously, when I showed him all your work, he had offered me that he would like to give the temple to you. That temple is much, much more developed than Haridaspur. That's the temple of Maheśa Paṇḍita.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Jayapatākā: And that is the seventeenth branch of Lord Nityānanda. It's got the personal Deities of Nitāi-Gaura that he used to worship. It's got a building worth about fifty thousand rupees on it. A nice, brand-new nātha-mandira. This man is Shri Keshav Priya Brahmacari. He's a disciple of that Krishna Prem, that Mr. Nixtan or something.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Jayapatākā: He talked personally with Bhaktisiddhānta, I heard, in Sanskrit many years ago. He's a disciple.

Prabhupāda: He's Indian or . . .?

Jayapatākā: Well, it's an unusual story that that man was a pilot in the World War, and he was flying over Himalayas or something, and he saw Kṛṣṇa in his mind's eye or something. And then, when he was shot down, he saw Kṛṣṇa, and then, when he landed, he searched out who he saw, and he came to Vṛndāvana or something and saw the Deity of Kṛṣṇa, and he became initiated at Rādhā-Rāmaṇa temple.

Prabhupāda: Rādhā-Rāmaṇa

Jayapatākā: This is that guru story. Now he only made a few disciples, and he always was chanting. Also Panditjī, he knew more. I don't know so much about his guru but I've heard a little bit that this foreigner became a guru or became a Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Nixon?

Jayapatākā: His previous name is Nixton; his initiated name was Krishna Prem.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was in Almora.

Jayapatākā: Almora, yes. I don't know exactly where Almora is.

Prabhupāda: Almora is a hilly station, Himalaya. If . . . Almora, one goes from Lucknow.

Jayapatākā: So this brahmacārī is a disciple of him. Therefore he doesn't have any connection. There's no sampradāya anymore, because his guru disappeared, and somehow he's got this sevā. These are the Deities there of Nitāi-Gaura. There's about twelve śālagrāma-śilās also. And a little Rādhā-Gopīnātha. This is all mentioned in your purport. It's only about four or five hundred yards. I could read from it.

Prabhupāda: Eh? No, that's all right.

Jayapatākā: It's four or five hundred yards from the Palpara Railway Station. It's the next station from Chuktaha, under Chuktaha police station.

Prabhupāda: Chuktaha? Chakdah.

Jayapatākā: Chakdah. That's where you take your . . . that mango orchard where you take your lunch? That's just the nearest place to Chakdah So he was very pleased with all the work that you are doing. He's in Vṛndāvana now for Janmāṣṭamī. He hadn't been to Vṛndāvana for five years, so he went to Vṛndāvana for darśana. He may be there even when you go. I'm not sure if he'll be there then.

Prabhupāda: You have advised to see our temple?

Jayapatākā: Yes, he'll definitely visit. I also gave him an introduction that if he goes, he should be received there. He's got . . . the present place where the Deities are situated is on four kuttas of land. And apart from that, where Maheśa Paṇḍita's samādhi is, he's got three bighās of land. That's right next to a four-hundred-year-old temple.

Prabhupāda: Chakdah is to the . . . it is from Shrirampur? No.

Jayapatākā: No, it's on this side of the Ganges. It's on the eastern side of the Ganges.

Prabhupāda: Oh, eastern.

Jayapatākā: There there's another temple of Jagadīśa Paṇḍita.

Prabhupāda: Hmm, yes.

Jayapatākā: That is run by Mādhava Mahārāja. That's in actual Chakdah, and this is another mile or two miles from Chakdah. That Jagadīśa Paṇḍita mandira has got big Jagannātha Deity, and one stick which Jagadīśa Paṇḍita carried the Jagannātha Deity from Jagannātha Purī with. I saw both temples. They told me there that "You should see this temple, very lovable Deities." And I went in. Actually the Deities are very beautiful and very well kept. Just like in Mādhava Mahārāja's mandira, underneath the siṁhāsana they didn't wash. Only in front. But this man, everything was neat and clean. It looked like a thriving, more or less, a thriving place.

Prabhupāda: So difficulty is that if we take charge, we may give it for worshiping to one disciple, but the Immigration Department will gag him. That is the difficulty. And we don't have many Indian disciples. Otherwise, we can take all these important places.

Jayapatākā: Also, last when I was in Calcutta and I saw Tarun Kanti Ghosh, then he mentioned to me again that the people from Pānihāṭi, this time that they had reached a decision that they wanted to give us the sevā of the Rāghava Paṇḍita's house.

Prabhupāda: So we take. Let us take it.

Jayapatākā: That's a very important . . . but that's in dilapidated state.

Prabhupāda: We shall repair.

Jayapatākā: In the letter of the Home Minister where he said that every disciple can stay for two years, possibly if he allowed that in every center, if a minimum of a few people could stay for citizenship, then that might . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: Ordinary, by rotation, and three, two or three or four permanent, by citizen, if he allowed to stay . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: . . . then that would solve the problem.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That make.

Jayapatākā: Not too many.

Prabhupāda: Not too many. Say at least five. They will manage.

Jayapatākā: Four or five. All others on rotation.

Prabhupāda: Then they will manage. And if they allow two years, that's all right. One devotee comes, another goes, another . . . that will be done.

Jayapatākā: Because some that are acclimatized, it is difficult for training up. A few people are better to stay there that are trained up on that basis. I think with Mr. Patnaik and others that . . . because he also wants that Orissan development . . . they can understand that it is important to have one or two people that are known people stay there. If every two years a change is, that is disadvantage.

Prabhupāda: No, our Gaura-Govinda, I think he is doing there nice.

Jayapatākā: He's doing nice in Bhubaneswar.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He has already few cottages?

Jayapatākā: Of course, I didn't see myself. I heard he has got a few cottages, three, four cottages.

Prabhupāda: So our Gargamuni has seen?

Jayapatākā: Yes, I think Gargamuni has seen. Gargamuni is giving him some help. He printed one Orissan book, and he gives him sometimes some books and help. He is fixed up, that Gaura-Govinda.

Prabhupāda: He's fixed up. That's nice. Let him translate in Orissa and, if possible, in Hindi. And give him few devotees. Then he'll be encouraged.

Jayapatākā: I think he has got two or three devotees now. This man himself is a pretty capable worker. He's similar like Prabhu Swarupa, only a little older, little more mature. He's about forty-five or so. He's been able to collect about, what I can see, about fifty thousand rupees for one nātha-mandira. So he is al . . . and he has a couple thousand people. I heard from the Gauḍīya Maṭha. They say they have big utsavas there. Every year two, three thousand people come.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: So he's a capable . . .

Prabhupāda: Manager.

Jayapatākā: . . . manager in his own right. He wanted to meet you.

Prabhupāda: So let us cooperate with him. You take it. And he is there. In the meantime, our men may be trained up.

Jayapatākā: He's invited us to come. He has some festival coming. Then we can just go . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . .

Jayapatākā: . . . and keep a good relationship.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Jayapatākā: The main one is in December.

Prabhupāda: Our difficulty is this immigration. If we can manage this, then all such places we can take. There is no question. The only thing is that government is gagging. One has to go, and it means ten thousand rupees unnecessarily. If that ten thousand rupees was invested in developing that center, much improvement could be done. But they are gagging. They are dreaming, "CIA."

Jayapatākā: When I go back, I'll see this Raghava Pandit, because there the MLA, he himself wants it because that's a very important place and it's going bad.

Prabhupāda: So that MLA can help us to get some citizenship.

Jayapatākā: With MLA and with Tarun Kanti Ghosh . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: . . . we can use them for pushing, because they are personally interested.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: They'll be able to help.

Prabhupāda: You can bring so many men and keep everyone in charge of such places, and it will develop. Money, there is no scarcity. But the difficulty is as soon as we establish, the Immigration, "You go away." This is . . . what is this? You say the MLA and this Tarun Kanti, "This is our difficulty. Otherwise there is no difficulty. We can take all the charge and develop them very nicely." So if one man is kept in charge, and after few months he's advised, "Go away," then all his training goes to hell and we have to spend another ten thousand rupees. This is the difficulty. What . . . we are not . . . not a single case there is that we have taken any part in politics. So give us some facility. We can take charge of everything. Tell them that actually that is fact, that there is no scarcity of money. We can bring money from America and develop. There is no difficulty at all. The difficulty is the Immigration Department. You can say that "Prabhupāda has put this philosophy, andha . . ." What is that? Paṅgu. Andha-paṅgu-nyāya. Blind and . . . depends on this . . . blind and . . . I think you have already know. Blind man, lame man. One man is blind, another man is lame. Both of them are useless. But when they combine, the blind man takes the lame man on his shoulder, and the lame man gives direction to the blind man, "Go this way. Go this way." So he walks. So both of them are benefited. So America has got money, but blind. And India has got culture, but lame. So let us combine. Then things will be done very nice. Andha-paṅgu-nyāya. Just like I am the same man. I was finding difficulty to start this mission in India, very, very difficult. With great hardship I published three books. But as soon as I went America, the andha-paṅgu-nyāya became successful. So this is the position.

So instead of becoming envious from political . . . we have nothing to do with . . . to the Americans unnecessarily thinking they are CIA. CIA . . . let American money and India's culture combine together, and the whole world will be benefited. America has got enough money, they can spend. Either they give me as the price of my book or anything, money is there like anything. India has got culture. So Indian culture, Vedic culture, Bhagavad-gītā culture, pushed through American money, the whole world will be benefited. Convince these things. It is not the question of "India," "America," here . . . it is a cultural movement for the benefit of the whole world. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126). It is cultural movement. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is aiming pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi. So "Tarun Babu, you are such a devotee of Caitanya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wants it. Pṛthivīte āche yata . . . why don't you help us? Your family is devotee of Lord Caitanya, and this is spreading Caitanya's mission. You should give up everything and join this movement, if you are actually a devotee of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And Prabhupāda says that he knows at your heart you want that Caitanya's movement is spread all over the world, so far he has studied you. So let us join together. Why we should unnecessarily be biased, 'American' and 'Indian' and . . . let us join together and spread Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement all over the . . . they'll be happy. Everyone will be happy. It is such a nice . . . India will be glorified. America will be glorified." If we . . . you came here. You have got so much strength. If you work continually, the whole world will be . . . so those who are offering, take. Take those places. Let us begin. If anyone wants some property, we should take immediately. You said there is already building cost fifty thousand? So that's a property. So if they are offering, you take it and develop. These are historical places. Haridaspur is also historical, I think. Hmm?

Jayapatākā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Vena? Venapur is nearby. Two miles.

Jayapatākā: Two miles. Two or three miles.

Jayapatākā: No, that's been . . . Haridaspur, since time of Lord Caitanya, for many, many years, four hundred . . . right from the time of Lord Caitanya they are calling that. They say there's no doubt that Haridāsa Ṭhākura came that way.

Prabhupāda: That must be. It is two, three miles. If he was a person belonging to Venapur, so two, three miles surrounding he must have gone. There is no doubt. And if you can establish good relationship with Pakistan, Bangladesh, then our whole question is solved. Go there, seek some preaching and come here, and all these motorcar problems . . .

Gargamuni: I don't want to sell them, you know . . .

Prabhupāda: No, it is a very . . .

Gargamuni: . . . because we took great hardship to bring them.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Gargamuni: Why we should sell them? They are so useful.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: They have done so much work already.

Prabhupāda: It is . . . nowadays motor vehicle is important item for anyone. We have spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness so quickly on account of the modern transport facilities, so we must take it as favorable. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). Anukūla, favorable. Favorable, favorable. It is not we have got . . . (indistinct) . . . with material. That is not Rūpa Gosvāmī's . . . prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi . . . this cars can be used for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why it should be condemned? That is not intelligence. Rūpa Gosvāmī condemns it. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.256). Things which is in the service of the Lord, if we think it is material, that is not vairāgya. That is not renouncement. That is foolishness. (break)

Jayapatākā: When I was traveling in Burdwan, there we saw the big palace of Mahārāja of Burdwan.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: Gigantic. He has given that to the university. Then we did a kīrtana at his . . . he has one temple of Rādhā-kānta. There's . . . present ācārya is about a twenty-two-year-old boy. He's in the sampradāya of Nimbārka Svāmī. So he doesn't know anything about . . . very much about spiritual life, although he is following the tradition. That's such a vast . . . that building is vast. I can't explain to you how big that is. It makes our . . . it's at least five times bigger than our building in all ways, and . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayapatākā: Than our building, five times bigger, I think, in length and . . . it is a huge compound. He has got much land in the name of the Deity. So he's becoming a member because he wants to read your books to understand about Lord Caitanya and spiritual . . .

Prabhupāda: Now for making member you should be very clear so that no misunderstanding can take place. Books, we shall give five books.

Gargamuni: Yes, that . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: On my form I have already printed we give five books.

Prabhupāda: "When you finish, you return this; you take another. When you finish that . . ." In this way.

Gargamuni: Well, we've been doing with members in Calcutta, members who want more of the books, they sign the standing order and they pay us for the books.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing.

Gargamuni: Every month. One book a month and they pay.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Gargamuni: And they sign the standing order.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Gargamuni: So we have taken many personal standing orders.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: We have one boy, Santoṣa. He goes door to door, meeting Bengali men, and they are signing standing orders and taking Caitanya-caritāmṛta. He has already done four standing orders in about ten days' time.

Prabhupāda: Bengalis? Bengalis?

Gargamuni: Yes, only to Bengalis. Because it's in their language . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: They can read.

Prabhupāda: No, it is in English. Anyone can.

Gargamuni: Yes, but Bengalis, they can appreciate more Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Jayapatākā: I tell the members that, "You can't get any Bhāgavatams," because there's too many.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why not? If he reads, give him. And it is very easy. Suppose I give you five books. You become member. So you read it and take another five books. This five books I can give to another. In this way we can manage. There is no misunderstanding. We give you book for reading, not for selling. Not that, "I have given money. Now so many books, let me sell it and get return as many, as much money as possible." Bāniyā tendency is like that.

Jayapatākā: Because they're paying 2,222 rupees. If they only give them five books on exchange, I don't think now they'll be satisfied.

Prabhupāda: What for he's taking?

Gargamuni: They're satisfied.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Jayapatākā: Now we're giving them the books.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Jayapatākā: We told them, "You can't have any books."

Prabhupāda: What is the cause of dissatisfaction? You take the books for reading, so you finish this and again we give five books. We take back this and give you in exchange. So actually we give them five books for good. That we are prepared. Five books at fifty rupees each, that one or 250.

Jayapatākā: But they're giving two thousand rupees.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Gargamuni: That's for membership. That isn't just for books. Sometimes they stay in our mandiras.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: We pay for their prasāda.

Prabhupāda: And three days free boarding and lodging. In this way things should be clear so that in future they may not complain, "Ah, we . . ." as they are doing. Somebody is coming, "Oh, we have given 1100 rupees to live here forever." Some ladies came like that.

Gargamuni: Yes, I know. I met that lady.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they take it, advantage, "Oh, we shall get all books, we shall live forever. There is no charge, pay." That misunderstanding should be . . .

Gargamuni: So now we say they can live forever, but as we live.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. That . . . that you can do.

Gargamuni: Not that they will get special privilege of . . . as hotel. They must live like us.

Prabhupāda: But they want free hotel. That is . . . they want free.

Jayapatākā: Sometimes old man who has got some money . . .

Prabhupāda: No, old . . . old man is different.

Jayapatākā: He wants to live, and he is too weak to do anything.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Jayapatākā: He wants to chant and give some money.

Prabhupāda: Let him purchase one room. Let him live . . . for life he can live, and we give him prasādam free.

Jayapatākā: Purchase one room. Eight, ten thousand rupees.

Prabhupāda: No, fifty thousand, I think. In Vṛndāvana we are selling sixty thousand. Sixty thousand.

Gargamuni: No, but those rooms have attached bath. In our room there is no attached bath.

Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say in Vṛndāvana, that's all right. Or anywhere. Whatever money is fixed up, let him pay, live in his room comfortably, and we give him free prasādam. There is no harm. But he must attend the ārati, and rules and regulations. There is no . . .

Jayapatākā: No tea, nor . . . all the rules he should follow.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: Attend the program.

Prabhupāda: Even if old men cannot follow, still, he should be given.

Gargamuni: What about tea?

Prabhupāda: Tea, tea can . . . then he'll caught. That is not.

Gargamuni: Because the old men, they are addicted to the tea.

Prabhupāda: No, what . . . many old men, they can give it up.

Gargamuni: We will promise them cow's milk.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Gargamuni: Pure cow's milk.

Prabhupāda: That "Instead of this tea, you take milk." Little milk, that is beneficial. So membership should be clearly defined, so that they may not misunderstand.

Gargamuni: But we're not having trouble now.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Gargamuni: Because we printed a new form. And generally, when members come they always donate more, so we give them one book.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: They always . . . I visited one hundred members, and all of those old members, they gave another one thousand.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Yes, they will give. I know.

Gargamuni: They'll give if you treat them nicely.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Gargamuni: And I gave them one book, and they're satisfied.

Prabhupāda: Any person who has money, they'll receive. So many places they are offering us land . . .

Gargamuni: There's another man who wants to give a big property. When you come to Calcutta he wants to see you.

Prabhupāda: In Calcutta?

Gargamuni: No, it's in Rajasthan.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Gargamuni: It's a palace which he's not using. And he met you in Bombay. He also visited our centers in Paris and New York. He's a Marwari man, very rich, very nice. He's also donated good sums to the Society. So now he wants to meet you, and he wants someone to go there. So I told him we will go and look at it.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Gargamuni: It's in Rajasthan.

Prabhupāda: Rajasthan? Where? Which side.

Gargamuni: It's near Bikaner. It's with agricultural land and a big house. They said they spent about fifteen lacks on it, marble house. The family is not using it. They have no use. We're getting a lot of offers.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: But because of Māyāpur, I have not taken them very seriously, because we already have huge affair in Māyāpur. But if you like, we can see.

Prabhupāda: No, kāca dhun kāca kaphe: "If some property is offered, we should take it." That is the . . . and washed cloth, jācā dhun kācā kapha. If somebody offers you very nicely washed cloth, you should use it. And some property, you must use it. They are . . . you can utilize this property by inhabiting the persons, if they are inclined to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are rotting outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They may come to live. We are for everyone. So he . . . where does he reside, this gentleman?

Gargamuni: In Calcutta. His businesses are there. He's a wealthy man, very nice man.

Prabhupāda: Where does he live?

Gargamuni: He's lives in Bara Bazar. His name is Mr. Buwalka.

Prabhupāda: Bara Bazar Marwaris are all businessmen.

Gargamuni: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is combination of rich men, poor men, for Kṛṣṇa. The same—andha-paṅgu-nyāya. Both of them are useless separately, and when they combine in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are all useful. It is very good example. And there is another example, that a piece of wire is falling, rotting, and a piece of bamboo, rotting, and a piece of squash skin is rotting. And one gentleman collected. He nicely trimmed the piece and dried the squash, the outer portion, and took the bamboo and nicely cut it and joined the string, and this became a sitar: ting, ting, ting. So it is the intelligent person who joins all these things and makes it very useful. These are the examples. The bamboo alone is useless, and a small piece of wire, useless, and a thrown-out squash skin, useless. But if you can join them together, you can "ting, ting." Similarly, andha-paṅgu-nyāya. Here is a lame man, here is a blind man. All right, combine together and use them. That is wanted. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhi labhate. This wire does not change. It is wire, it remains wire. But when it is combined, it is useful. So our propaganda is, "They are separately planning useless. Let them combine together in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All this planning shall be successful.

Jayapatākā: We were all useless in the West, but you have come and then engaged us.

Prabhupāda: It is Kṛṣṇa's desire. Nobody is useless. I was also useless. I could not do in India alone anything. This is . . . again the same example: (laughs) two useless makes useful. Intelligence alone cannot work. Money is required. One man was challenged, "You have no intelligence." So he said, "Yes." He was searching these . . . "No, why you are searching here?" "No, here is intelligence. If here is money, then my intelligence can work. Otherwise what is the use of intelligence?" But he was searching here, "Whether I have got intelligence?" Simply intelligence . . . in industry also: land, labor, capital, organization—four things needed. Simple capital will not do. Simple organization will not do. A man may have very good brain power, organization, but if he has no money—useless. So four things required: land, labor, capital, organization. That minister in Raṅganātha, he is inclined to spend huge income of Tirupati, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But he is bound up by other colleagues. They are applying the money. So he's willing to call all the ministers if I can convince them. I shall try it. Just . . . in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yajñārthe karma. Everyone is karmī. So the karmīs, the village cultivators or big men industrialists, they are going to Tirupati. Whatever then can spare, they are offering. That is yajñārthe. If this money is taken and again if it is brought into karmī, then it is misleading. Karmīs are giving them. Just like people are giving us money. They are karmīs. But because they are giving us and we are engaging the money in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so the money is fully utilized. But if this money again taken and again to the karmīs . . .

Jayapatākā: Without any spiritual work.

Prabhupāda: Then it is a farce. His purpose is served, but one who is misleading the . . . he becomes criminal.

Jayapatākā: The man who gives, his purpose is served.

Prabhupāda: His purpose is served.

Jayapatākā: The man who takes the money is . . .

Prabhupāda: He is to be punished. His misusing. Suppose in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement somebody gives us money. He is giving good faith that "It is very good organization." But if I misspend that money, then I am responsible. Then I'll be punished. His business is finished. Kṛṣṇa noted that he has given his hard-earned money for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If I take that money . . . instead of doing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if I use it for my sense gratification, then I'll be . . . then I'll be responsible. What is the use of Kṛṣṇa's money being used for industry? Any purpose outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . let this money be utilized for spreading the glories of Kṛṣṇa. But they do not recognize Kṛṣṇa. All the so-called Bhagavad-gītā readers, they want to kill Kṛṣṇa.

Gargamuni: Yes, that's a fact. The Calcutta plan that you had, it is still under consideration. At first the Calcutta corporation refused, but then Abhirāma saw the Minister of Municipal Affairs, Mr. Subrata Mukerjee.

Prabhupāda: So I gave the meaning.

Gargamuni: He said: "No, I want this." But there's still a problem, is that they'll allow a monument, but they don't want the Deity. They'll allow us to build a monument for Bhaktivedanta Swami but no Deity.

Prabhupāda: Well, then take this proposal, "All right, no Deity." We shall hold meetings, lecture. What is that? In the park people come. And we decorate the whole hall with pictures. Gradually we worship one picture.

Gargamuni: Later on, maybe we can put Deity. Once it's built, they cannot tell us to get out.

Jayapatākā: That's what Mr. Choudhuri said.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: He said, "You can take, and once a week you bring Deity and put, and other time you just do kīrtana."

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Jayapatākā: One week, it stays one week. Then it stays one month . . .

Gargamuni: We can take the Deity for a walk around the park, and then into the hall for two hours . . .

Prabhupāda: For some time, two hours.

Gargamuni: And then take out.

Prabhupāda: Yes, then do that. And we are inviting everyone. We have no distinction. Anyone can come to the park. Convince them. (break) "Come on! Take prasādam sumptuously." They'll be satisfied. They are hungry. Actually they are hungry, poorly paid, capitalist and worker. The trouble is, capitalists, they are taking all the profit, and they are enjoying life in wine and women. Naturally the worker will see that, "Why? We are working so hard, and they are making profit, and they are enjoying, and we do not live in a very nice house; it is a slum." Naturally they will be envious. If the capitalists spend the money for Kṛṣṇa consciousness—in each and every factory they hold festivals and give them eatables like anything—everything will be successful.

Gargamuni: We tell them that "If you give your Kṛṣṇa tax, this will save you from the income tax."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: "Because they are raiding . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: ". . . because you are hoarding. But if you give . . ."

Prabhupāda: The industrialists . . . that is also one of our programs. Let them hold festivals every Sunday, as we hold. And we shall go and have kīrtana and sumptuous feeding give. They'll be very satisfied. And instead of giving the income tax, let them spend in this way. Convince them.

Jayapatākā: At the factories. Weekly foodstuffs. They feed all the workers. We'll prepare the prasāda, offer to the Deity and feed to all the workers.

Prabhupāda: They'll be satisfied.

Gargamuni: Presently the building they're in now is unbearable, as far as living

Prabhupāda: Why?

Gargamuni: Well, it is old building. Water supply is very bad.

Prabhupāda: So you cannot . . .

Gargamuni: It is a rotten building.

Prabhupāda: Rotten cannot be repaired?

Gargamuni: No. And the landlord won't allow him here.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Gargamuni: Because he wants us to get us out . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but he . . .

Gargamuni: But he won't allow any repair. You have to have his permission to get repair. If you don't get landlord's permission, then you cannot repair. You're forced to live in a slum.

Prabhupāda: No, no, you require permission of the landlord if he pays.

Gargamuni: No, no. Even if he doesn't. Any construction . . .

Prabhupāda: No, I don't think that is the law. What is the law? I am feeling inconvenience, I cannot repair?

Gargamuni: No.

Jayapatākā: No, how that can be? You can tell the police.

Gargamuni: No, then you have to go to the court, and that takes ten years. Just like he's in the court for five years now. He is not taking our rent.

Prabhupāda: Then let us repair. Let him go to the court. Because by repairing, we have broken the law, so let him go to the court. (laughter) The same logic.

Gargamuni: Actually, Abhirāma . . . also, the facility for living there is only good for five or six persons. Otherwise it is not good. So they want to get a building.

Prabhupāda: So what happened to the corner house? What happened to the corner house?

Gargamuni: No, that is still there.

Prabhupāda: Then why don't you purchase it?

Gargamuni: Which corner one? The one right across?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Left corner.

Gargamuni: No, but that's even worse condition than what we have.

Prabhupāda: No, no, we break it and prepare nice temple.

Gargamuni: He went to see that man. That man, he doesn't want to sell.

Prabhupāda: What was the . . .

Gargamuni: He's one of these Marwaris who is very miser. He himself lives in a slum.

Jayapatākā: But right now Abhirāma hasn't found another place.

Gargamuni: I just talked to him. Let me talk . . .

Jayapatākā: He told me ten minutes ago . . . (indistinct)

Gargamuni: So they are thinking they want to get . . .

Prabhupāda: And one thing is that next thing will be . . . now there are many flats.

Gargamuni: Now, we have one flat that we are renting.

Prabhupāda: Not renting. Purchase.

Gargamuni: Well, the only thing is with these flats in Calcutta, they are so mismanaged, these new places. They become a slum in two months. In Bombay the flats are managed nicely, but in Calcutta when they build a new one, within two months the whole thing is filthy dirty, the elevators don't work. It's not worth purchasing a flat. I have one now. I am renting. It's on the twelfth floor, and the members of our traveling party stay there, you see. There is nice water and so many things. But the building is so mismanaged. Who wants to stay there more than a year? We need our own place. Then we can keep it clean and nice.

Prabhupāda: Where is that own place?

Gargamuni: Well, there are buildings that we can get. In Ballygunge we have some offers. That's if this park doesn't come through. If the park does not come through, then we can . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all try to make . . . this is the best place in Calcutta.

Jayapatākā: I personally went with Abhirāma to see the minister, and the minister didn't give any stipulation. He was only for the project. His only reservation was that, he said first of all, politically, he doesn't know about our Society. If the government Home Department says that it's all right . . . as far as the program is, the program, the plan that was given, he totally accepts it as it is. That's when I saw him. Since then, Abhirāma has not seen him. But the people in the corporation, they have refused it without his sanction, and they have written him that the minister said he does not want it. When we took that—we showed it to the minister—he said: "This is completely wrong." He said: "No, no, no! There is some misunderstanding." Then he said, "You write me a letter that there is some misunderstanding, and I will take care of this matter."

Gargamuni: So he wrote the letter, and now they forward that letter back to the Calcutta corporation without a letter from the minister. Because he went back there. He just told me that. So it's back again to the same guys who, you know . . . of course, I don't know what letter he has written, but the officers would not tell us anything. Anyway, we will try our best.

Prabhupāda: Why not take the Victoria Memorial? What is, they are doing?

Jayapatākā: I have never gone inside. I heard it is simply old English armor and some swords.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen.

Gargamuni: And the marble is turning black.

Prabhupāda: Because they don't . . .

Gargamuni: They don't clean.

Jayapatākā: How they can afford to maintain such a building?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa will maintain.

Jayapatākā: Oh, we can.

Prabhupāda: We can utilize it properly.

Jayapatākā: And we'll have British pūjārīs. For the glory of Queen Victoria.

Prabhupāda: Victoria. Let them send. Tell them that we shall bring. Victoria has . . . let them send to worship Victoria with prasādam of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is real Victoria Memorial.

Jayapatākā: That is putra. (loud kīrtana in the background throughout)

Prabhupāda: Yes, great-grandson. Putra is great . . . the putra was that Edward Seventh.

Jayapatākā: No, but to lift from hell. When she gets prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Puṁ-nārakāt trāyate iti putra. Victoria died in 1903. There was great function, and this building started in 1903, and it was finished in 1922.

Jayapatākā: After her death.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Curzon's plan . . . Lord Curzon wanted that let there be a king of India from the family of Victoria. He gave this plan. But this Parliament did not want that Englishman shall make India home. Then his interest will be in India. Just like America. Englishmen, as they made America their home, they declared independence. Australia. As soon as you make a home, then the more interest will be in India. Washington was Englishman. Was he not? Washington?

Gargamuni: Yes. Well, everyone came from England.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not from England many. But ordinary . . . so Englishman, why he declared war against the English?

Jayapatākā: Their interest was in America more than England.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Naturally. So as soon as you make home, your interest will be at home. So that was their policy. In those days no Englishman was allowed to purchase property in India. All his income, money, should go to England. So the Muhammadan Moguls, they made their home in India. Therefore they stayed for eight hundred years. They would not have gone. Indians did not like to finish the Muhammadan kingdom. No, never. It is the Englishmen. They penetrated and finished them, not the Indians. Indians were not against the Muhammadans. They are going on. Little bit discrepancies were there, especially during the time of Aurangzeb. He was bigot Muhammadan. He hated the Hindus. Not hated, but he was a . . . was is called, bigot, Muhammadan? He did not hate. That was not his qualification. Aurangzeb gave many contributions to the Vṛndāvana temples. Yes. And Aurangzeb's grandfather, Jahangir, he gave many temples to many brāhmins. There is one village just opposite Vṛndāvana, Keśīghāṭa: Jahangipura. This village was given to a brāhmin. From the income he was maintaining a temple. And Aurangzeb . . . you know Sringarpat Goswami?

Devotee (1): (entering room) Śrīla Prabhupāda, Shankar Kumar has brought the food and all these things to his place. So if you'd like to go afterwards or take here, or what would you like?

Prabhupāda: No, no, let them take.

Devotee (1): Pradyumna thought that you wanted to take with them.

Prabhupāda: So I can take, but you'll take . . .

Devotee (1): They'll have their food, and you will also have . . .

Prabhupāda: No, what is that? Let them take here in the temple.

Devotee (1): In the temple?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because I will have to take at least one hour. How they will wait?

Jayapatākā: Better they take separately.

Prabhupāda: So Indians did not like that Muhammadans may go away. Rather, when Shri Rajdullah was arrested by flight, the Bengali zamindars, they protested. Rani Bhavani, she protested, although it is alleged that Shri Rajdullah kidnapped her daughter. But if Shri Rajdullah kidnapped her daughter, how he (she) supported Shri Rajdullah? There are so many falsehoods. On the whole, the Indians never planned to drive away the Muhammadans. They never. That's a fact. They were happy because there was no exploitation. All these Muhammadans, they made their home in India, so whatever lavishly they were spending, that was coming to the Indians. In Tollygunge there is a man—now they are aristocratic family—he was servant of the nawab, and he stolen one shoes, one feet, which was bedecked with jewels. So by selling that jewel he became a rich man. So although they were using jeweled shoes, but it was in India. They were satisfied that, "I am nawab. I am using jeweled shoes." But the jeweled shoes was in India, and these Englishmen, they have taken away all the jewels even from the walls, and keeping them in their homes—all gold, jewels, everything.

Gargamuni: Yeah. That's a fact that in those old houses, the Marwaris, they have inherited all of these pieces. Now they have it all. In the old British houses many Marwaris have taken over, and they have inherited all of the treasures of the British.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Gargamuni: Many antiques.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyway, if I take away something from you in this room and I keep it somewhere in this room, then where is the difference either with you or with me? That was going on during Muhammadans' ruling. But these people, they took away from the room.

Gargamuni: Exploitation.

Prabhupāda: So India became poverty-stricken.

Jayapatākā: One more thing is that locally, that bank that opened there . . .

Prabhupāda: They are . . . they are crazy fellows.

Gargamuni: That bank is worthless. They don't know anything about banking. They are farmers.

Prabhupāda: Forget it. If bank like Central Bank or United, that bank . . . they are useless, and they are asking ten lakhs of rupees deposit.

Jayapatākā: Five lakhs. They will give interest. They'd like a fixed amount . . .

Prabhupāda: So who believes them?

Gargamuni: No, but I don't trust that bank because they already tried . . . they kept fifty thousand rupees. It took us two weeks to get that.

Jayapatākā: They didn't have my signature.

Gargamuni: It doesn't matter, though. It's still . . .

Jayapatākā: No bank would have given. Without signature no . . .

Gargamuni: Still, they're not a good bank. They have three . . .

Prabhupāda: They are not . . . it is a small cultivator's cooperative.

Gargamuni: I wouldn't trust a small bank. At any time they can lose. They only have three or four branches.

Jayapatākā: They're backed by the Reserve Bank.

Gargamuni: It doesn't matter.

Jayapatākā: What do you mean, it doesn't matter?

Gargamuni: No big bank . . . (indistinct) . . . what big bank?

Prabhupāda: Then who is going to deposit five lakhs of rupees with them? That is not possible.

Jayapatākā: Yes, that's all right, but as far as the bank goes . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. We can go on without the business. We cannot deposit.

Jayapatākā: If any banker goes there, they'll want a deposit. But if a big bank . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. But why should we deposit five lakhs of rupees? The money value is decreasing daily.

Jayapatākā: We get credit.

Prabhupāda: If you deposit five lakhs now, it will decrease value in five, ten months. The purchasing power of money is decreasing. Now what you can purchase with five lakhs of rupees, after five years you'll require ten lakhs. So your money will decrease. And if you invest that money in land, after five years it will increase to its full extent. So why should we waste our money? What is the benefit?

Gargamuni: The farmers don't keep their money in the banks. The government is trying to force the farmers to keep their money in the bank. The farmers don't want to do it.

Prabhupāda: Farmers' policy is if they have got money, they purchase land. Therefore they are making ceiling. The whole policy is not so good. Farmers, as soon as they get some money, they want to invest the land, but the ceiling . . . so they cannot invest money in the land, they give to the bank. And as soon as you keep money in the bank it will decrease the value. This is . . .

Gargamuni: That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: Money is decreased, value of, all over the world. Because it is not money actually; it is paper, cheating. Real money is gold, they will not allow to keep this gold. The whole policy is vicious. If I purchase gold with five lakhs of rupees, then it is real money, and after five years I can sell it seven lakhs. That they will not allow. Therefore I . . . my policy is that whatever money is there, spend. Don't keep. In land, and produce food. That is the best use of. All buildings, government, there is no need of. And instead of keeping money and take interest, you print books. That is also good. You can sell. Or you purchase land for producing food.

Gargamuni: If we stock money, then there'll be no preaching. But if we print books, then we have to sell the books. So that is preaching.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I am insisting all over, "Print any book." Never mind either Hindi or English or any . . . print book and keep it in stock, nicely.

Gargamuni: And gradually we will sell. Then we will preach. Otherwise, if we put it in . . .

Prabhupāda: That is the purpose of my Bhaktivedanta Trust. Fifty percent must be spent for printing and fifty percent for building. That's all. No money. Don't keep any account.

Gargamuni: Then the government will never get envious, because there's nothing there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And we haven't got to keep so many accountant, auditors, and other nonsense, unnecessary expenditure. As soon as there is collection, invest the money in some building or in making some book, book printing. Follow this policy. I am very much eager. I have got money here and there, but I want to spend it in this way. So therefore I am advising take this. We shall invest renovating them and in developing them. Spend money. Don't keep it.

Jayapatākā: Yes. So I'll tell them our policy is changed. We don't keep any more money in fixed deposit because it's a losing bargain?

Prabhupāda: That's it. Actually it is losing. Actually it is losing. Every day the price . . . just like the price of rice has increased.

Jayapatākā: It is up and down.

Prabhupāda: Up and down, now . . . take it. When it goes up it does not come down, generally. So this is practical example. Two months ago you were purchasing two rupees—now two-eighty. So where is the value of the money?

Gargamuni: If we invest in books . . . just like this little pamphlet I printed. It cost me fifty paisa. If we sell it in one month . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: . . . then we will get fifty paisa profit. We will make double our investment.

Prabhupāda: That was nicely . . . that was nicely printed. So in this way invest in books or land. We don't want to keep cash.

Jayapatākā: And if they want to keep branch or not, that is up to them. We can't give them any money. If they want to keep branch or not, that's up to them.

Prabhupāda: That should be up to them. If they keep branch we can take that. They'll go on.

Gargamuni: We will tell them frankly that for us to invest in books is more profitable, because after one month we get more.

Prabhupāda: We cannot keep money, and without any . . . they will give interest. What is that interest? And he said we have printed fifty paisa and selling hundred paisa. So that much interest they cannot give. They'll give, utmost, ten percent. Ten percent per annum—not even one percent in a month.

Gargamuni: Your books will be our bank.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got business. Why shall I keep in the bank? This is the policy. If your money is idle, we can spend it in our books, in our purchasing land, in temple, constructing temple, developing . . . so where you got that water? Water's there? Don't touch that water.

Hari-śauri: No, there's one bucket of mixed with half a bucket of hot water. Yesterday what happened, the tank, some blockage there was . . . (end)