760822 - Conversation A - Hyderabad
(Conversation with Endowments Commissioner of Andhra Pradesh)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . every day to get permission.
Prabhupāda: Give him some prasāda.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He is coming at one o'clock, so we'll give the whole mahā-prasāda.
Prabhupāda: Aiye Aiye, but . . .
Hare Kṛṣṇa. So at four o'clock you are coming there? No. At Mr. Raja's house?
Commissioner: Endowments Minister.
Prabhupāda: They are holding some meeting? Today we have got very good article in the Sunday Chronicle.
Devotee: Have you read this?
Commissioner: I have a copy.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is reporting about us very nice, and still there are some envious persons, they are creating doubts about us.
Commissioner: They cannot create any doubts, Swāmījī, as long as you are establishing the equality of man in the eyes of God, only one God. That is being done, I think, in midst of . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, we have no discrimination.
Commissioner: Ācchā. No discrimination. And that is the . . . I don't think anybody called . . .
Prabhupāda: Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu.
- brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
- na śocati na kāṅkṣati
- samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
- mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
- (BG 18.54)
Unless one is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, he cannot reach the platform of devotional . . .
Commissioner: And how can there be anything greater service to humanity than . . .
Prabhupāda: Here is the first thing, that brahma-bhūtaḥ, Brahman realization. Then prasannātmā: he is no more under the material tribulation or anxiety. We are in anxiety on account of our material conception of life. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because we have accepted this asat body, material body, which will not exist, and we are concentrating our attention only on this body, therefore we are always anxious. Asad-grahāt. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt. On account of asat. So this is going on all over the world. Simply anxiety. They have created United Nation, but where is the United Nation? The people go there with anxiety, that's all, and come back again with anxiety, because their asad-grahāt remains. The Indian is thinking, "I am Indian, this body," and the American is thinking, "I am American," and the Pakistani is thinking, "I am Pakistani." So asad-graha is there. So how the anxiety will go away? But they do not know this. There is no education. They want to keep him . . . "Feel always that you are Indian," "Feel always that you are American." "You feel always you are Hindu," "Feel always you are Muslim." Asad-graha. How there can be no anxiety? Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt.
So asato mā sad gamaya. This is Vedic injunction. Don't remain on the asat platform. Come to the sat platform. Asato mā sad gamaya. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya. Don't remain ignorant. But unfortunately, people are so absorbed in asat things they do not know what is sat. They cannot go to the sat platform. They cannot go to the light platform. And they are struggling like that. No solution. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). The government may change, but the men are the same—in darkness. What improvement will there be simply by changing government? The persons who are governing, they are in the darkness. So how, by change of government, there will be change of situation? I said in . . . where? That the United Nation is an assembly of dogs barking.
Devotee: You've said this . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Where did I say it? It was published in the paper. I said that if you keep them as dogs, and if you ask some dogs, "My dear dogs, please do not bark. Live peacefully," is it possible? The dog will bark. That is their business. So we are not enlightening them what is actually we are. We are keeping on this bodily conception. That is the dog's conception. And how there will be peace? There cannot be. Simply by agreement, by treaty, there can be any peaceful? No. Just like children. They agree, "Yes, we shall not fight." Next moment they'll fight. And again they will make agreement. This is going on.
Commissioner: What could we do, the devotees down here in Andhra Pradesh state?
Prabhupāda: You become guided by Bhagavad-gītā.
Commissioner: (Hindi) If you think that everything could run . . . (indistinct) . . . then ahobalam is there. Ahobalam is there. That is also . . . (indistinct) . . . Here now . . . (indistinct) . . . But if you are going. Tomorrow they have to . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: You have counted? Not yet. Counting? No.
Hari-śauri: I've got it listed. 182. 1-8-2.
Prabhupāda: All their temples should be reorganized on the . . . people should come there for being educated. Temple means it is an educational center.
Commissioner: Educational center.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Brāhmaṇas means they are teachers. Paṭhana-pāṭhana-yajana-yājana-dāna-pratigrahaḥ. So every temple should be educational center, and the brāhmaṇas should be engaged. They should be properly educated and they should teach others also. In this way, temple means education in spiritual life. And actually spiritual life is life. This material life, the bodily conception of life, is dead life. Aprāṇasyeva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam (CC Madhya 19.75). This nice shirt you have changed because there is life. When there is no life, who is going to change dress? The body is there, but why you are not interested in changing the dress? Better interest . . . the sooner the body is thrown away or burned up, better. So similarly . . . (break) There is a proverb that a vulture goes very high, but his ambition is where is a dead body. As soon as he finds a dead body, (growling sound) immediately. And we see, "Oh, how high he has gone." So what is the going up so high if your aim is to find out a dead body? And actually, these aeronautics, they went to very high, suppose they went to moon. But after going there they find, "Where is Moscow? Where is this?" The same vulture business.
So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only hope to give relief to the human society. So everyone should cooperate with this movement. Unfortunately, there are so many envious persons, they are writing against us, talking against us. They should be envious. Because they want to exploit, keeping the people in ignorance.
- sarpaḥ krūraḥ khalaḥ krūraḥ
- sarpāt krūrataraḥ khalaḥ
- mantrauṣadhi-vaśaḥ sarpaḥ
- khalaḥ kena nivāryate
- (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita)
So our preaching is very difficult task, still we're trying our best.
Commissioner: That's what I find, Swāmījī. My work is also very difficult. Work is very difficult. We have about 30,000 temples in this state, properties that have temples, the . . . (indistinct) . . . of temples, interest in the temples . . .
Prabhupāda: No, it can be . . . if government takes our advice, we can give them advice how to organize, how to utilize.
Commissioner: Definitely. We want a scheme. Definitely. Fortunately, it is the land of this Kṛṣṇā and Godāvarī. It is a sacred land. Tuṅgabhadrā, Kṛṣṇā, Godāvarī. We are finding where everywhere there has been some kind of ups and downs. It has been studied.
Prabhupāda: It is the government's duty to settle up. But they must know how to settle up. If they do not know, then they cannot do anything.
Commissioner: No, we want guidance. Of course.
Prabhupāda: That guidance we can give you. That guidance we can give. Because we have taken the brāhmaṇa's position. The brāhmaṇa's duty is to give guidance to the kṣatriya. Government means kṣatriya. So if the kṣatriyas take guidance from the brāhmaṇa and they try to execute, then everything will be all right. So we can give you sufficient guidance, provided you accept it. (laughter)
Commissioner: The end is common. And we have found yesterday some of your śiṣyas had come. They're so happy. They said: "This is what the requirement is," and we accept him as a śiṣya.
Prabhupāda: Temple means a center, educational center, education. (aside:) Give them prasāda. Bring. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Commissioner: And we have centers through Tirupati. All over the country in our important centers, we have got some centers.
Prabhupāda: Now the thing is that, say, for Tirupati, it has got biggest income. But I understand that this income is being engaged for industrial purpose. But that, how to utilize in industrial purpose, that you do not know.
Commissioner: But just one thing, let me explain Swāmījī. We are not directly giving to industry. What we are doing is we are depositing in a fixed deposit in certain banks, getting the highest interest. That interest we are utilizing for Sanskrit studies, Vedic studies, etcetera. We are not directly giving. What we are doing is this: we invest in your bank, but bank shall invest in a productive industrial purpose. We put a condition. We are not directly putting in the industry, and that's a wrong propaganda that's being done. What we are doing is the interest that comes, the funds that are there, they are safely there in a bank. The interest that comes, we utilize only for religious purposes, like, as I said, the dharma-pracāra, veda-pracāra, all that we are doing.
Prabhupāda: So, I have taken this veda-pracāra. Why not come and join with us?
Commissioner: Yes, definitely.
Prabhupāda: All over the world they're accepting. Now these foreigners, they're accepting. I have done it single-handed. So if the government comes forward and join with me, we can do at least ten times work.
Commissioner: How, kindly give us, sir, if you have . . . I don't know if I'm taking your very valuable time. We are very sincere about it. We are having Himalayan opposition for some of our schemes. But when I studied yesterday—because before I came to you I thought I shouldn't just come for wasting your valuable time—therefore I have found that your aims are what we have been thinking of for the Society. The veda-pracāra, we were thinking that we have also started on a small scale, not on your scale. And if it is that we were thinking in these terms—translation of these Vedas . . .
Prabhupāda: First of all, first of all, you must know what is Veda. Vedas, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). Vedic knowledge means to understand Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself, to understand Him. That is Bhagavad-gītā. So if you accept the principles of Bhagavad-gītā, the whole Vedas are accepted. Because purpose of Veda is to understand Kṛṣṇa. And that Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself—"I'm like this." So where is the difficulty to understand Vedas?
Commissioner: May I explain to you what we have, we are doing, Swāmījī? In the villages we have now taken statistics of our veda-paṇḍitas. There are three hundred of them. Now they have said they don't want to come out of their villages. We have said wherever they are, in their own village, for one or two hours, they meet, chant the Veda in the temple or the village.
Prabhupāda: They'll not do that.
Commissioner: They are now willing to.
Prabhupāda: There may be some percentage. If you do not accept the recognized process . . . just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was a great scholar. So He was chanting and dancing. So some of the sannyāsīs, Māyāvādī sannyāsīs in Benares . . . (to devotee) You keep it there, they will take. There was a meeting, and the question was that "You are a sannyāsī . . ." This question was put to Caitanya Mahāprabhu that, "You have taken sannyāsa, You do not read Vedānta, and You are mixing with the sentimental persons, chanting and dancing. What is this?" This was the question. So He explained that, "Yes, My Guru Mahārāja found Me a great rascal." Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). You understand Bengali? No. "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a rascal number one. Therefore he has chastised Me." What is that? Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana. "He has said that 'You are rascal, You cannot read Vedas and Vedānta. You are rascal. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So I'm doing that." (Hindi)
Commissioner: Chanting, yes. Yes.
Prabhupāda: So He is Kṛṣṇa Himself. He's neither rascal nor fool. But He represented the rascal and fools that who will read Vedānta. Everyone is after this Veda. No student will come to study Vedānta. That is not possible in this age. You see? Maybe somebody interested, but generally they'll not come. Even if one is born in the brāhmaṇa family, he is no more interested.
Commissioner: May I submit, Swāmījī, therefore what we did was, these three hundred people, if they chant, three hundred rupees for a dāna-paṭha, and two hundred rupees for him and a hundred rupees a . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: No, no, brāhmaṇa, why he will take money?
Commissioner: It is . . . no, we are giving it as dakṣiṇā.
Prabhupāda: No, dakṣiṇā. But they are chanting in exchange of dakṣiṇā. Because you are giving dakṣiṇā, therefore they are chanting. And you stop that dakṣiṇā, nobody will come.
Commissioner: True. You are correct. (laughs) That we have told them. If they teach their own children, hundred rupees for him for teaching, forty rupees for a child who learns.
Prabhupāda: That they will do, but when the hundred rupees will not be sufficient, they'll give up.
Commissioner: One thing is that at least one child is learning in each and every house . . .
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say that is not the process. If you want to satisfy with money, and in exchange of money he wants to chant Vedas, that is not . . .
Commissioner: No, Swāmījī, some of them didn't care either for the money.
Prabhupāda: Some of them maybe.
Commissioner: And they were starving. And they were starving.
Prabhupāda: But generally, generally, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu's process should be taken, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu represented Himself that, "I am fool." He is not fool. He's representing the fools of this age. So if we take that process, it will be successful. It will be successful.
Commissioner: That also . . . (indistinct) . . . that bhajana and every.
Prabhupāda: Yes, let them come.
Commissioner: That is all.
Prabhupāda: Let them come in the temple, and there may be sumptuously offering of bhoga. Let them chant and take prasādam. In this chanting, illiterate, literate, rascal, fool, lower, higher, everyone can join. And give them prasādam. See the effect.
Commissioner: Yes. That is also part of the . . . that is the other part of it. We are having dhana-prasthānam, bhajana group, hari-kathā group . . .
Prabhupāda: But kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. The Vedas are meant for the brāhmaṇas. So there is no brāhmaṇa practically. Neither there is training of brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa means he must speak truth. Satyā śama dama titik . . . and if you ask nowadays anybody that, "You don't speak lie, you speak truth," he will laugh that, "What a rascal this is. By speaking truth one can live nowadays?" he will say. The first business is satyam. And if you ask him, "You speak truth," he will laugh. So where is brāhmaṇa? A brāhmaṇa is so simple that if you ask him about his secrecy, he'll tell you, "Yes, this is . . ." Satyam. Just like Jābāla Upaniṣad, he was asked, he went to Gautama Muni . . .
Prabhupāda: Satyaka, yes, for initiation. Gautama Muni asked him, "Who is your father?" He said: "I do not know." "Go to your mother." He went to the mother. Mother said: "Oh, my dear son, I do not know." Means he was a prostitute's son. So he came to Gautama Muni and said: "Sir, my mother does not know; I do not know." So he said: "You are a brāhmaṇa."
Devotee: This is our tradition.
Prabhupāda: "Because you don't keep any secrecy you are brāhmaṇa. I'll initiate." So it is not the birth, but the quality—truthful. But these qualities will come when you make him a devotee. So this process should be taken, how to make him a devotee. And the easiest process of making devotee: let them come to the temple, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and take prasādam. Then gradually they will become . . . I began this movement on this.
Commissioner: Very good idea. Very simple idea.
Prabhupāda: Very simple. And they have come. I never asked them to study Vedas in the beginning. What they'll read Veda? What do they know? But this process has become successful. So if you take this process, it will be very quickly successful. And then literature. I never gave them literature. I have got about eighty books. Not that in the beginning I asked them, "Come here and read books." No. "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam." Now they are interested in reading books, in publishing them, in selling them and everything. They are doing everything. So if you take the authorized program it will be successful. Otherwise, it will not be successful.
Commissioner: Well . . . (indistinct) . . . and how long the Swāmījī will be here? I'll take up the program. We will. As a matter of fact, somehow . . .
Prabhupāda: I am always at your service.
Commissioner: Somehow, the coincides, our program, we have taken a small scale. Every temple has been asked to have this bhajana, hari-kathā, then this pūjā . . .
Prabhupāda: There must be some competent man to induce. Everything will be planned.
Commissioner: Therefore our training has to be started perhaps here. Some of those people who could go. Now these are all the ideas, of course. If you could give an impetus, that's exactly what I wanted to . . . take advice from you. Now if a center is established. What we lack very badly are those people who can competently take up this work in the whole state. The temples are there, the funds are there, organization is there. Men who are, as you say, the real brāhmaṇa, who could go and preach this, we are lacking. We are lacking. And he has to be trained. And the right training you are giving. Anywhere I see your men are . . .
Prabhupāda: So we can give men.
Commissioner: Yes. And a training institute has to be started. Very badly we need it. My department also, having any number of people. It is suffering because we don't have the proper people with that objective to govern . . .
Prabhupāda: Because the culture is lost. Culture is lost.
Commissioner: Because we take the local people as trust board members. Local people. We appoint officers.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I said if you keep them dogs, what is the use of United Nation? You cannot make the dogs united. That is not possible.
Commissioner: Yes. Therefore recently in Tirupati we have been thinking of starting a training institute along with Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. We asked . . .
Prabhupāda: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have no idea.
Commissioner: They have no idea. Ramakrishna Mission we asked.
Prabhupāda: They have no idea.
Commissioner: They don't have people. They said: "We don't have men even for our own missions."
Prabhupāda: No. How long they can go on with false pretense? And these people, they have no idea what is spiritual life. It is a profession for collecting money. So if you . . . we do not like to criticize. Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, K. Munshi, he did not believe there is life after death or he did not believe there is Kṛṣṇa, fact. This is the founder. So what is their knowledge? And Vivekananda made Nārāyaṇa daridra. So this is their manufacturing ideas. They have no sound knowledge. Vacant. They are misled themselves, and they will mislead others. This is going on. But if you say that, "You are the only man?" I can say: "Yes, I am the only man at the present moment." You believe or not believe. And why? Because I am following Kṛṣṇa's instructions. That's all. I do not touch anything. That is our process. What Kṛṣṇa has said, we say, that's all. Therefore there is little success. I don't manufacture. I have no extraordinary power or I cannot show magic or jugglery of words. But I do sincerely to present what Kṛṣṇa has said. So if you do that, you'll be successful. If you do not do that, you'll never be successful. If you manufacture idea, you'll not . . . we must know that we are defective. Our manufacturing of idea all defective. We must take standard instructions from Kṛṣṇa. Then everything . . . so if you stick to this point, then we can guide you. And you'll be successful. Guidance is Kṛṣṇa. Our duty is to present Kṛṣṇa. Just like somebody has sent you money order, 1,000 rupees. I am a peon; I am not giving you the money. The money is sent by somebody. But I do not open it, adulterate it—that is my honesty. That is my honesty. So the instruction is Kṛṣṇa's. If I honestly deliver the same message to you, then you are benefited, I am benefited. And as soon as I pilfer it, then it is useless, I am useless, and you don't get profits, success. So if you decide to take Kṛṣṇa's instruction rightly, then we can give you very good guidance. Everywhere you'll be successful. Everything is there.
Commissioner: Any plans to have training and . . .
Prabhupāda: Anything. It must be sanctioned by the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Then it will be successful.
Commissioner: For success the people, the local language, so that they may be . . .
Prabhupāda: Language difficulty is there. That we have to solve.
Commissioner: Therefore training has to be done here and in other places, anyway, and a center has to be there. You could plan one of those with also . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, plan is there. Just like we are doing. And we can give you in detail. Provided you accept this principle that we shall abide by the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā.
Commissioner: Who questions the Gītā and the Upaniṣads?
Prabhupāda: It is very difficult. It is very difficult. You see. Big, big scholars, big, big politicians, they are supposed to be preaching Bhagavad-gītā. They take their photograph in front of Bhagavad-gītā—but without Kṛṣṇa. They'll never talk of Kṛṣṇa any time. Banish Kṛṣṇa. Even Gandhi has said: "My imagination of Kṛṣṇa is different." Perhaps you have read in his Gita Press edition. Kṛṣṇa is speaking . . . Radhakrishnan said when Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, he says: "It is not to the Kṛṣṇa person." Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad bhaktaḥ, and he says it is not to the Kṛṣṇa person. Just see how misleading it is. And if a person like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi, misleads, then who will hear me? What I am? There is one big person in Bombay, he said that he has set aside ten lakhs of rupees for Gītā-pracāra. But when I proposed Gītā-pracāra means kṛṣṇa-pracāra, so he said: "No, I want Gītā without Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) Everyone . . .
Commissioner: Then who is the Gītā-pracāra? Gītā-pracāra.
Prabhupāda: They are doing that. You can see from this big, big person. Gandhi used to say that he believes in Gītā and Gītā gives him solace in difficult times and so on, so on. But has he ever preached about Kṛṣṇa? Tilok has ever preached about Kṛṣṇa? Radhakrishnan has ever preached Kṛṣṇa? Nobody. Their policy is take Sītā and kill Rāma. Rāvaṇa's policy. Take away Sītā. Take away Gītā and kill Kṛṣṇa. So Rāvaṇa's policy will never be successful. Rāvaṇa's policy means he will be destroyed. You cannot do any harm to Rāma, but he will be destroyed. This policy, that take Sītā and kill Rāma, means he will destroy himself. So this is going on. Take Gītā and kill Kṛṣṇa. This will destroy the whole thing, this Rāvaṇa's policy. And Hanumān's policy, somehow or other rescue Sītā and get her seated by the side of Rāma. Therefore he's worshiped, Vajrāṅgajī. That is the difference between Rāvaṇa's policy. Sītā is the via media. But one is trying to bring back Sītā and seat her by the side of Rāma, and another is trying to take away Sītā and kill Rāma. This wrong policy will not save us. We have to accept the instruction of Gītā and accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord. Then everything will be all right. (aside) Prasādam?
So thank you very much for your coming.
Commissioner: Thank you. And to you, Swāmī.
Prabhupāda: So, kindly if you will agree to take the instruction of Gītā, I am always at your service. I'll give you such guidance—our men, our everything. But you have to decide this. You cannot take up this policy, take Gītā and banish Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is not wanted. (end)